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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Miracles as an argument for theism

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Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,09:23    I'd like to test the waters with this one. Obviously we can discuss the historical accuracy, testability, repeatability, etc. But recently, I've been thinking that the purported miracles don't do faiths any favours. Here's why: They show that the core message is not strong enough to carry the faith, It is not completely persuasive through argument and logic alone. So the guy had to do some magic also. A divinely constructed message would not need this. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,09:40    Ahhh but in order to have miracles you must presuppose laws.  If we do not presuppose such things (show me a law.  what color is it?) then we have no need to worry about the implications of miracles because by definition they do not exist. His eye is on the sparrow, the heavens and earth are sustained by his mighty back, he made the turtles, etc etc.  Any appeal to anti-realism will defeat your criticism, I believe. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,10:01    Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 26 2008,09:23) It is not completely persuasive through argument and logic alone. As far as I am aware, logic and evidence and stuff were not so important in the past.  Therefore, your critique of miracles would have carried no weight, given the different world views, philosophy etc held in the past.   Nowadays, though, your critique is more to the point.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,10:05    Perhaps we can also discuss the fact that the Virgin Mary only appears (e.g., on food, rock faces, etc.) in Catholic countries. Isn't that sort of preaching to the converted? Why shouldn't the Virgin Mary appear in, oh, I dunno, Japan, Mongolia, Algeria, Mississippi, Iceland, or Lesotho? For that matter, why are all the cases of American teenagers worshipping the devil found in Bible Belt places like Kansas or Texas? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,10:29    [Believer] Ah but Richard god is mysterious and mickle and ineffable are his ways. Who are you to place restrictions upon god?  Etc. [/Believer] Anyway, haven't we long known that dogmatic ideologies both religious, quasi-religious and non-religious DON'T convert people by appeals to reason alone? They offer "comforting" "explanations" (scare quotes VERY much meant) for a variety of phenomena, and use appeals to common prejudices, exploitation of common weak links in human psychology and if all else fails downright threats and fear to sustain/spread themselves. Religion, certain forms of political ideology, advertising about health and cosmetic etc etc etc all use the same techniques. The appeal of appeals to miracles (from younger looking skin to eternal salvation) is one of those things our general lack of statistical perspective lands us with. Granted it's the 21st century and yadda yadda yadda, but why on earth some of us expect that humanity is more than 7 hairs short of being a baboon is beyond me. Appeals to miracles, small surveys being erroenously extrapolated, a large world impinging on small social consciousness, purpose seeking mental "software" etc are all legacies of our evolution that are not going to disappear overnight (or maybe at all). The appeal to miracles is a very effective strategy of exploiting this chink in our mental armour. More than these miracle appeals degrading the coherent logical whole of any particular (religious) proposition, our desire for them is evidence of our physical, psychological and social evolution. Their effectiveness is part of the evidence AGAINST certain (religious) ideas, not for them. Any appeal to unreasoned prejudice or mystery has the same effect. Appeals to any form of unreason or antireason simply destroy not only the reason based nature of a proposition that contains them, but their use is actually a point in favour of the best reasoned propositions we have currently developed. Ironic I reckon! Louis -------------- Bye.

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,11:10    What does a “miracle” say about the relationship between the believer and the deity? Doesn’t this require helplessness on the part of the believer, and thus exploitation, abuse by the Powerful One? (And does it really matter if it’s “benevolent” when it could choose at any time not to be?) Isn’t the believer then reduced to a passive entity, watching the Prime Mover (not unlike watching Prime Time celebrities on television, who are of course more important people than you are, there wasting your precious life watching them on television) make things happen?  What about our action? All religion wants us to do is answer yea or nay. Screw “creation,” what about our creativity? This is a question I’ve asked over and over of fundies and they never give a straight answer. Because they are neither creative nor particularly imaginative. Yet they want me to be like them. There are plenty of them already being like them, IMO. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,11:20    Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 26 2008,09:23) I'd like to test the waters with this one. Obviously we can discuss the historical accuracy, testability, repeatability, etc. But recently, I've been thinking that the purported miracles don't do faiths any favours. Here's why: They show that the core message is not strong enough to carry the faith, It is not completely persuasive through argument and logic alone. So the guy had to do some magic also. A divinely constructed message would not need this. I think you have touched on a good point here... regarding why religions have staying power - if your deity does miracles, it virtually ensures the continuation of the shaman, priest, parson rabbi position.   The rubes have someone to turn to when the Sky Faja* is angry, and the ruling elite have a tool that can help control the masses, and the priest class has an incentive to live - explain / interpret the "miracle", and keep the Cycle Of Stupidity spinning. So, actually, miracles improve the brand.  Reinforcement. And please keep in mind, that I have New, New All Improved Indulgences available - for a limited time only - to posters of this site! Be the first poster to make it all the way through the Heavenly Gates™!  Find out what the "Virgin Mary" is really like!  But wait there's more!  Every poster that send me their cash or American Express Check for $99.99 now, will also receive, at no extra charge, a Genuine Piece of The True Cross! Act Now!  Reserve YOUR place in heaven...FOR ALL ETERNITY!~ valid only in places that have American Cash *from the Dirty Dutch - I just watched a re-run of Austin Powers Goldmember on cable this weekend.  Very sophomoric humor - it's perfect for me.  Foxy was foxy too. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,16:49    Do you think God looks back on his handy work and exclaims "Holy Moley!  I just did a miracle."  I'm pretty sure that miracle is our term, not his.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,16:52    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,16:49) Do you think God looks back on his handy work and exclaims "Holy Moley!  I just did a miracle."  I'm pretty sure that miracle is our term, not his. Do you think that god is an old man in the sky with a beard who has a childish need to be worshipped and would kill his son for forgiveness by proxy rather than just forgive, and who thinks that I'm accountable for what my great..great...great... ancestor did? Oh, you do. You're missing the point. The message isn't enough. Not nearly enough. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,17:06    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,16:49) Do you think God looks back on his handy work and exclaims "Holy Moley!  I just did a miracle."  I'm pretty sure that miracle is our term, not his. I want to know if he ever looks at his handy work and admits he fucked up. "Boy was THAT a mistake!" "Damn I take a little nap, wake up and all my chosen people are getting waxed by this adolph guy!  Not good!  Oops! Note to self, keep an eye on my favorites!" Surely god is bright enough to know when he makes really stupid and obvious mistakes, yes? "Oops, ANOTHER species gone extinct?  Damn I'm like up to a 90% failure rate?!  Maybe I should replace my magic powers for some new ones.  I seem to kill everything I try to grow! Maybe I should use Miracle Grow next time" Yes, surely god is a rational and self-correcting dude. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

C.J.O'Brien Posts: 395 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,17:53    See? This is why we can't have nice things! -------------- The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand. --Joe G

hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,20:34    Like chance, an unusual event, some might call a miracle, doesn't have to break any law  of physics. Beating the odds can always be attributed to either skill or luck.  Like Tiger Woods says, " The more I practice, the luckier I get." And the realist says, "It's not hard to walk on water if you know where the stumps are." Of the 342 "miracle" stories on my web site, only one, would I contend, breaks any  law. Zero -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,20:55    zero is there such a thing as a 'law' of nature? if so then how are such laws broken? if not, then how do you know the lights will come on when you flip the switch? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,21:42    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,15:49) Do you think God looks back on his handy work and exclaims "Holy Moley!  I just did a miracle."  I'm pretty sure that miracle is our term, not his. Seriously, I could accept a God who was brave enough to say, "Um, I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions?" *Raises hand* The surrealists were big into collaboration. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,21:45    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 26 2008,20:55) zero is there such a thing as a 'law' of nature? if so then how are such laws broken? if not, then how do you know the lights will come on when you flip the switch? Eras, I know nothing about natural law or "laws of nature", and very little about the laws of physics. I wrote: ************************ The order of creation is as follows: Verse 3 light Verse 8 heaven (home) Verse 10 earth (footstool) **************************** When I posted the above on "Google talk origins", someone posted,"You err." and he quoted where God said,"I create darkness and I create light." While taking a break, I jotted down my reply on a scratch pad: "It's simple. He turns off the light." I walked into my computer room to post, turned on the switch and the light bulb blew. ********************* Miracle, chance, or act of nature? 1Ki 20:30 But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and [there] a wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand of the men [that were] left. Zero -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,22:23    If I was as ignorant as to the nature of God as these posts exhibit then I would have trouble accepting the concept too.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,22:37    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,22:23) If I was as ignorant as to the nature of God as these posts exhibit then I would have trouble accepting the concept too. You are, unless you can prove otherwise. Having an old book wont help. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,23:13    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,22:23) If I was as ignorant as to the nature of God as these posts exhibit then I would have trouble accepting the concept too. I would ask how you know that your conception of God is right while others' are wrong, but somehow I strongly suspect the conversation would spend weeks going nowhere. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,23:35    it's not my conception, it's just what has been written.  Whether it's true or not is irrelevant especially if it isn't understood at this point.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,23:38    Quote If I was as ignorant as to the nature of God as these posts exhibit then I would have trouble accepting the concept too. Followed by Quote it's not my conception, it's just what has been written.  Whether it's true or not is irrelevant especially if it isn't understood at this point. So we need to know the nature of God, but not if its true or not (not relevant), just a written perception. Can you stink up some other thread or get on topic? Cheers. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,23:42    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,23:35) it's not my conception, it's just what has been written.  Whether it's true or not is irrelevant especially if it isn't understood at this point. 'What has been written'?? Are you trying to claim that there's one conception of God, and it's the one that's been written down? I hope you're not really saying that. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,23:58    just to point a few... no where is God portrayed as an old grey-haired grandfather, at many points in the Bible God has no problem wiping out his chosen people how in the world would we know if God was outta ideas or even what his ideas were? just some points to consider

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2008,23:59    just referring to the conception that you guys are bashing

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,00:04    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,23:59) just referring to the conception that you guys are bashing Oh, so by "it's not my conception, it's just what has been written", you mean the conception that's been written here? Ah. I don't think there is *a* conception of God that's been written here. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,00:06    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,23:58) just to point a few... no where is God portrayed as an old grey-haired grandfather, ERRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNTTTTTT. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,00:10    What a nugget. Zeus looked similar also. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,00:11    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 26 2008,22:23) If I was as ignorant as to the nature of God as these posts exhibit then I would have trouble accepting the concept too. Well, it didn't take us long to complete that circle.   Quote If I was as ignorant as to the nature of God What nature? Again, why is your conception of 'the nature of God' valid while the conceptions of others are wrong? Don't you have to, you know, know that your conception is right to say that others are 'ignorant'? How is this different from you accusing us of being ignorant of unicorns or Santa Claus? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,00:44    I forgot that book that Da Vinci wrote, how stupid of me! Maybe he just did the comic book version. Look, if you guys are going to bash, at least have a clue as to what it is that you're actually bashing, just a suggestion.  It looks awful hypocritical to get on me for referring to a particular incarnation of God and then continue to bash that very same incarnation.  My suggestion is if you're going to bash a Judeo-Christian incarnation learn something about it first so you can at least present valid points rather than this third-grade nonsense you guys keep throwing around.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,00:51    "no where is God portrayed as an old grey-haired grandfather" *Scans for text reference*. Nope. Thread's about miracles needed to augment a bad logical argument, not how you're the bestest christian who's god is the most bible like. I said: Quote Do you think that god is an old man in the sky with a beard who has a childish need to be worshipped and would kill his son for forgiveness by proxy rather than just forgive, and who thinks that I'm accountable for what my great..great...great... ancestor did? Oh, you do. and your bone of contention?   HIM HAVING GREY HAIR -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,01:06    My contention is, based upon these posts, you guys aren't capable of discussing theism or miracles in any objective manner.  My suggestion is you go back and learn something about those topics before you begin to spout off. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

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