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  Topic: Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial, anyone else watching the PBS show?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:25   

This PBS show is pretty good so far.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:32   

As I was turning it on and listening while making a salad, a woman from Dover said " 'In the beginning, God created-'...I don't need to know anything else."

I thought FtK lived in Kansas. ;-)

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:37   

They showed a clip from some Discovery Institute DVD. While the DI voice over talks about scientists doing research, the DVD shows Michael Behe in a lab coat, which should make anyone chuckle, and Stephen Meyer giving in a lecture.

One hard thing for anyone who moderates here is, the only approprate response to that is "Fucking lying bastards." yet we need to not have that kind of intemperate speech around here.

Good luck Lou.  :p

Edited by stevestory on Nov. 13 2007,20:39

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:39   

I just saw Professor Steve Steve!

Wooohoooo!

   
Hermagoras



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:47   

Let the liveblogging continue!

What's with the inevitable scenes from Inherit the Wind?  Do we really need to see the first Darren from Bewitched?

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Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:48   

I am not looking at this thread until after the show.  We on the best coast still have 2.25 hours to wait.

LALALALALALLALALLA (I'm not looking)>>>


Actually, I have watched arguements in sign language.  Facinating, IF YOU SHOUT, you make signs BIG.  The ultimate power trip is to grab someones hands and sign with your free hand.  The maximo shutdown is to close your eyes, or to turn around.

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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:51   

"Evolution is just a theory. It ain't Darwin's Fact. Or Darwin's Law. It's Darwin's Theory."

--several tards, such as Bonsall and Buckingham.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:52   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 13 2007,20:48)
I am not looking at this thread until after the show.  We on the best coast still have 2.25 hours to wait.

LALALALALALLALALLA (I'm not looking)>>>


Actually, I have watched arguements in sign language.  Facinating, IF YOU SHOUT, you make signs BIG.  The ultimate power trip is to grab someones hands and sign with your free hand.  The maximo shutdown is to close your eyes, or to turn around.

that's really neat, actually.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:00   

The guy talking about the red sox in the dramatization is a horrible actor.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:06   

The Rehms, who teach bible school and oppose the lies of Intelligent Design, are getting attacked as atheists in their community. No surprise. And no surprise that the Discovery Institute didn't want to talk to NOVA.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:08   

One flaw in the reenactments is that Eric Rothschild is not played by a CGI Bruce Lee, and Nick Matzke is not played by Denzel.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:21   

"I'm like Zsa-Zsa's fifth husband. I know what to do, I just can't make it exciting."

--Scott Minnich

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:22   

Okay. No more liveblogging. Had to switch to House.

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:05   

All in all it was pretty good, but they didn't take the gloves off.  The IDCH got a pretty gentle treatment, all things considered.  It was fair and informative, but I'd have roasted their asses.

OK, that's probably why NOVA hasn't hired me to do it.

They hit all the highlights, from Dembski et. al running away to "Astrology is Science" to "Breathtaking inanity".  I enjoyed it.

Buckingham hasn't changed a bit, and has learned exactly nothing.  He's still bitching, whining, and lying his ass off for Jesus.

... and still saying "Creationism".

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:09   

Really, the only thing I can think of that would have made it better would have been the pre-trial thoughts from DaveTard and some "someone died on a cross 2000 years ago" footage from the school district meeting.  It's a shame there's no actual video of the trial or the school board meetings.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:19   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 13 2007,21:09)
Really, the only thing I can think of that would have made it better would have been the pre-trial thoughts from DaveTard and some "someone died on a cross 2000 years ago" footage from the school district meeting.  It's a shame there's no actual video of the trial or the school board meetings.

You'll just have to console yourself that Dave's comments about Judge Jones were documented in Edward Hume's "Monkey Girl".  

Whenever I think of that, I have to chuckle.  Dave sees himself as the great cultural warrior and, when the day comes that he is lowered into his grave, his great legacy will be him with his foot in his mouth.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:19   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 13 2007,22:05)
Buckingham hasn't changed a bit, and has learned exactly nothing.  He's still bitching, whining, and lying his ass off for Jesus.

... and still saying "Creationism".

The essential contradiction of Intelligent Design is you have to tell the credulous idiots it's really creationism, while telling the sophisticated people it's not creationism at all.

That center can never hold.

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 13 2007,19:25)
This PBS show is pretty good so far.

The Discovery Institute not replying was a HUGE mistake.

ID is PWNED!!11ONE!!11!!!

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:31   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 13 2007,22:19)
Whenever I think of that, I have to chuckle.  Dave sees himself as the great cultural warrior and, when the day comes that he is lowered into his grave, his great legacy will be him with his foot in his mouth.

Y'know, that's always worth quoting in full...

Quote (DaveTard the Culture Warrior @ 9/30/2005, 3:03PM)
Have more faith, Bill!

This is all about Judge Jones. If it were about the merits of the case we know we’d win. It’s about politics. Look at the Cobb county case. A sticker that did no more than mention a plain fact, that evolution is theory not a fact, was ruled a violation of the establishment clause. Incredible! A local school board saying evolution is a theory is, in some twisted logic that just makes me shudder, a law regarding an establishment of religion. Har har hardy har har. Right. In a pig’s ass (pardon my french). Clinton appointed Judge Clarence Cooper made a ridiculous ruling that was faithful to the left wing overlords that he serves.

Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

Politically biased decisions from ostensibly apolitical courts are a double edged sword that cuts both ways. The liberals had their turn at bat. This is our time now. We won back congress in 1996. We won back the White House in 2000. We won back the courts in 2005. Now we can start undoing all the damage that was done by the flower children. The courts have been the last bastion of liberal power for 5 years. It was just a matter of time. The adults are firmly back in charge. The few wilted flower children that refused to grow up will have to satisfy themselves by following the likes of Cindy Sheehan around ineffectually whining about this, that, and the other thing. They’ve been marginalized.


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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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N.Wells



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:00   

It's probably worth quoting the post by Dembski to which Bill was responding:
Quote
Life After Dover
William Dembski

Before the Dover trial concludes, I want to offer some remarks about what I take will be its long-term significance. I want to do this now so that critics won’t be in a position to accuse me of spinning or rationalizing the outcome of the trial once it is reached (of course, they’ll still find fault, but that’s par for the course).

As I see it, there are three possible outcomes:

  1. The Dover policy, in which students are informed that the ID textbook Of Pandas and People is in their library, is upheld.
  2. The Dover policy is overturned but the scientific status of ID is left unchallenged.
  3. The Dover policy is not only overturned but ID is ruled as nonscientific.

For what it’s worth, my subjective probabilities are that outcome 1. has about a 20% probability, outcome 2. has about an 70% probability, and outcome 3. has less than a 10% probability. (Part of what prompts these numbers is that the ACLU is completely outmanning the Thomas More Law Center, which is defending the Dover policy. When I was an expert witness in the case, TMLC had one full-time person on the case and two or three part-timers. The ACLU, by contrast, had at least twelve full-timers on the case.)

Of course, I regard 1. as the best outcome for ID. That’s not to say I think the Dover policy is particularly astute. Indeed, that’s why the ACLU has come to this case both guns blazing, namely, because the policy is less than optimally formulated and they hope that they can take down not only the policy but also ID with it (their model is what happened to creationism in Edwards v. Aguillard in the 80s).

Fortunately, ID is in a much stronger position scientifically than creationism, so the ACLU faces a much tougher opponent than back then (go, for instance, here and here). Unfortunately, members of the Dover school board have, through their actions, conflated ID with an apparent religious agenda. For instance, it doesn’t help the ID side that William Buckingham, then a member of the Dover school board, in trying to get the Dover policy adopted, remarked: “Two thousand years ago somebody died on the cross, can’t somebody stand up for him?” (Go here.)

If the policy is upheld, it will embolden school boards, legislators, and grass roots organizations to push for intelligent design in the public school science curriculum. As a consequence, this case really could be a Waterloo for the other side.

But will outcome 2. or 3. constitute a Waterloo for ID? Outcome 2. certainly won’t. It may make policy makers more cautious about how they incorporate ID into educational policy. But it certainly won’t stop them, especially with Santorum language in the Federal Government’s education policy (go here).

That leaves outcome 3. Although I would hate to see this happen, mainly because of all the young people who would continue to be indoctrinated into a neo-Darwinian view of biological origins, this would hardly spell the end of ID. For one thing, ID is rapidly going international and crossing metaphysical and theological boundaries. The idea that ID is purely an “American thing” can no longer be sustained. Interest is growing internationally and it will continue to grow regardless of the outcome of the trial. Also, ID is of great interest to college and graduate students, so these ideas will continue to be discussed.

But the most important thing to understand about this case is that the significance of a court case depends not merely on the judge’s decision but also on the cultural forces that serve as the backdrop against which the decision is made. Take the Scopes Trial. In most persons minds, it represents a decisive victory for evolution. And yet, in the actual trial, the decision went against Scopes (he was convicted of violating a Tennessee statute against teaching evolutionary theory).

Thus, unlike outcome 1., which would be a Waterloo for the other side, I don’t see outcome 3. as anything like a Waterloo for our side. It would make life in the short-term more difficult, and it certainly would not be pleasant to have to endure the gloating by the other side, but the work of ID would continue. In fact, it might continue more effectively than under outcome 1., which might convince people that ID has already won the day when in fact ID still has a long way to go in developing its scientific and intellectual program.

To sum up, we might say that outcome 1. would be a recipe for complacency, outcome 2. would encourage us to take greater care and try again, and option 3. would inspire us to work that much harder for ID’s ultimate success. I trust that Providence will bring about the outcome that will best foster ID’s ultimate success. The important thing is ID’s intellectual vitality.

Whether favor or adversity is, at least for now, the best tonic for ID’s intellectual vitality remains to be seen.


It's clear that the outcome was Dembski's #3.  It is not clear that ID has continued to grow, and the only metaphysical boundaries that it has been crossing lately are ones associated with ethics and unwitting comedy.  It is more clear than ever that "ID still has a long way to go in developing its scientific and intellectual program."  

Science has continued to make nifty new discoveries since Dover, as it would have done no matter what legal judgement was reached.  ID has produced approximately nothing (a few more bogus arguments from Behe, and nothing of substance from Dembski, except for a flap over cafeteria access at Baylor).  Moreover, that's probably just about all the cdesign proponentsists would have produced if they had won in Pennsylvania.

And, yes, the producers did a great job with that program.  Way to go, PBS!

  
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:01   

Yep, the Disco Inst looked like Major Twits by not responding to PBS.

Behe, especially.

At least good old Phillip Johnson had the backbone to speak his mind.

I like how Johnson referred to Behe as the "thick end of the wedge."

I'd call Behe "thick," too.

  
N.Wells



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:05   

Well, they'd likely have looked even worse if they had responded.

  
ck1



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:34   

The real heroes - the science teachers.  Very impressive group.

And too bad there was no time for Mike Argento.

  
Reciprocating Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,23:18   

A lot of Judgment Day was more effective than I expected - such as the explanation vis cooption/exaptation of the secretory system into the flagellum.

Although I've read much of the key testimony, it was interesting to put faces to the key protagonists.  

I laughed aloud a the cdesignproponentists passage, and wished they had done the search/replace thing.  

My only problem with the program was the Twilight Zone courtroom set. What was up with that? I would have gone for a more realistic reenactment. Plus the courtroom acting wasn't so hot. Too bad the thing wasn't taped.

But, as ck1 notes above, I felt deep admiration for the science teachers in Dover and the parents who brought suit - as well as respect for the Dover community itself for having thrown the bums out in the ensuing election. I cheered for the teachers at one point.

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,23:43   

Which side was Behe on?

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Ptaylor



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,23:52   

For those like me afflicted by the tyranny of distance there is a good step by step liveblog of the show over at Pharyngula.

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skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:07   

Anybody know if this will be available online?  I flipped over and saw that it was on but this is my Bones/House night and nothing interrupts that.

  
someotherguy



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:14   

Quote (skeptic @ Nov. 14 2007,00:07)
Anybody know if this will be available online?  I flipped over and saw that it was on but this is my Bones/House night and nothing interrupts that.

Go here on November 16th.

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Evolander in training

  
Nomad



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:18   

I whooped with joy when the part came when Behe had all the books and papers on the immune system dumped on his desk.

"that's an old lawyer trick, of course he couldn't say he's read them all" says Phillip Johnson.

Clearly he couldn't.. or else he'd have known he was speaking out of his ass on that one..


Yeah, they didn't entirely take the gloves off, but I think that was the point.  The wedge document called for fair coverage on NOVA.. so.. they got it.

And yet they're still not happy.  There's just no pleasing these people.

  
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:19   

I loved the transitional fossil:

"cdesign proponentsists"

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