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  Topic: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed., Sternberg, Gonzalez, Crocker - A film< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,12:49   

It's so obvious that the producers don't care how the film does, just so long as it has the strongest opening weekend ever. They can't hide the movie forever -- it has to be released eventually. And as soon as the film hits the screen, an outporing of negative reviews will ensue, but by then they'll have had their opening numbers to crow over. As has been constantly noted, if they really believed they had an important message to deliver, wouldn't they want to ensure the sustainability of that message? Why is it so important for them to say, "Expelled opened at #3 in the box office, even though it dropped off the charts the following week"?

--------------
Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
JohnW



Posts: 2233
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,13:19   

Quote (Chayanov @ Mar. 11 2008,10:49)
It's so obvious that the producers don't care how the film does, just so long as it has the strongest opening weekend ever. They can't hide the movie forever -- it has to be released eventually. And as soon as the film hits the screen, an outporing of negative reviews will ensue, but by then they'll have had their opening numbers to crow over. As has been constantly noted, if they really believed they had an important message to deliver, wouldn't they want to ensure the sustainability of that message? Why is it so important for them to say, "Expelled opened at #3 in the box office, even though it dropped off the charts the following week"?

It's better than that.  After the fundies see it on opening day*, the negative reviews will come out, no-one else shows up, and they'll start showing it in church basements.  The marketing will then be "Expelled was #7 on opening weekend, before the Evil Darwinist/Atheist/Nazi/Stalinist Conspiracy produced all those scathing reviews and got it thrown out of commercial cinemas.  See the film THEY don't want you to see."  Ka-ching! Thank you very much!





* I'm not convinced this will be enough people to give it more than a half-decent opening weekend.  "The strongest opening weekend ever" is going to be well out of reach.


[edit - fixed a couple of sloppy word choices.  Either too much coffee this morning, or not enough.]

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,13:47   

If only we had saved the video of Gonzalez getting burned at the stake, Sternburg getting beheaded, Dembski getting pantsed and Behe being forced to publish a joke of a book*.

Then, we could open up our competing Darwinista Martyr-Drama the same weekend as Expelled and distract their target  demographic.


Added in edit:  *Ah yes, good times...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,14:35   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 11 2008,12:19)
 
Quote (Chayanov @ Mar. 11 2008,10:49)
It's so obvious that the producers don't care how the film does, just so long as it has the strongest opening weekend ever. They can't hide the movie forever -- it has to be released eventually. And as soon as the film hits the screen, an outporing of negative reviews will ensue, but by then they'll have had their opening numbers to crow over. As has been constantly noted, if they really believed they had an important message to deliver, wouldn't they want to ensure the sustainability of that message? Why is it so important for them to say, "Expelled opened at #3 in the box office, even though it dropped off the charts the following week"?

It's better than that.  After the fundies see it on opening day*, the negative reviews will come out, no-one else shows up, and they'll start showing it in church basements.  The marketing will then be "Expelled was #7 on opening weekend, before the Evil Darwinist/Atheist/Nazi/Stalinist Conspiracy produced all those scathing reviews and got it thrown out of commercial cinemas.  See the film THEY don't want you to see."  Ka-ching! Thank you very much!

* I'm not convinced this will be enough people to give it more than a half-decent opening weekend.  "The strongest opening weekend ever" is going to be well out of reach.
[edit - fixed a couple of sloppy word choices.  Either too much coffee this morning, or not enough.]

Makes me want to help these poor Darwinian Abolitionists out and get a hold of the film, and make as many pirated copies to distribute far and wide so that The Film They Won’t Let You See gets as much exposure as possible! That’s what they want, isn’t it? This isn’t about $$$ - this is about ideals! Freedom! Of! Speech! and all that. People will lose their jobs if they see this film, unless they get a pirated copy from me for them to safely view in their own home – and to copy themselves and distribute! I’m sure my efforts would make Ben Stein very happy. ;) I’m sure he’d write a grateful NY Times column about brave, activist me. :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,12:43   

Cross-posts from Talkorigins:

 
Quote
"Stein also joined John Stemberger, head of the Florida Family Policy
Council, and Casey Luskin, a lawyer from the Seattle-based Discovery
Institute, in defending a private screening of Stein's new film that
has been arranged tonight for legislators. They showed a brief preview
of the film, in which Stein recounts his meetings with teachers and
scientists who have been shunned for questioning evolutionary theory.

...


"Two bills by Rep. Alan Hays, R-Umatilla, and Sen. Ronda Storms, R-
Brandon, would forbid school districts or state authorities to punish
teachers or students in any way for raising questions about evolution.
Stemberger said the new law is needed because of "dogmatic" new
science standards adopted by the State Board of Education last month,
which allow teaching of evolution as "a theory."


"Stein said all scientific approaches ought to be protected in
classrooms, not just evolution or creation-based theories.


""This bill is not about teaching intelligent design," said Stein.
"It's about freedom of speech.""


The rest is here:


http://www.news-press.com/apps....S012...


Only problem, liar Benjamin, ID and creationism aren't scientific
theories.


And the reason you can tell your lies, Stein, is that there is freedom
of speech.  If you could be prosecuted or sued for lying, your ass
would have been in prison long ago.


Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7


[A follow-up post I made]

   
> "Stein said all scientific approaches ought to be protected in
> classrooms, not just evolution or creation-based theories.



OK, all scientific approaches should be protected, according to
Stein.

But the Expelled producers write that belief in the designer is a
worldview, or essentially, not science:


"Belief in atheism, agnosticism and belief in a designer are real
beliefs - let's not pretend that they don't exist, can be side stepped
or pretend that it is fair, constitutional or intellectually rigorous
to favor one such worldview over another... especially in the realm of
science. To oppose such academic freedom - especially at the
taxpayer's expense - is simply wrong. If you agree, look here."


This is found at:


http://expelledthemovie.com/chronicle.php?issue=2&article=1


OK, so atheism, agnosticism, and belief in a designer are beliefs.
Why should beliefs be taught in a classroom?  Lord knows, agnosticism
and atheism aren't permitted to be, so why should belief in the
designer be permitted to be taught in the classroom?


They're shooting themselves in the foot, and are too stupid to realize
it.



Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,20:16   

Anyone live near Chicago, and want to see Expelled?

 
Quote
This might interest some people:

<blockquote>You are invited to a FREE PRIVATE SCREENING of Ben Stein’s upcoming, history-making film, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Opening in theaters April 2008).


....
<br /><br />

The private screening details are as follows:<br />

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2008<br />

Time: 7:00PM<br />

Location: AMC Lowes Streets of Woodfield 20, 601 N. <br />Martingale Rd., Suite 185, Schaumburg, IL 60173


RSVP: http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled <br /><br />

For some reason this takes you to the list of all of the private screenings for Expelled, which is not where I was when I copied the address.  But then, that's all the better [this paragraph was added in edit]



Source for the above
Glen D


--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,11:06   

Well, I still don't know if Mr. Stein is a young Earth creationist:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/03/13/meeting-of-minds

Quote
Two of the better-known challengers of the evolutionary belief system met in Nashville, Tennessee, on Tuesday to discuss ways that the upcoming movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed can have a major impact on the creation/evolution debate.


Quote
While his film arrives at American movie theaters on the weekend of April 18, Mr. Stein came to Nashville for a special preview showing of Expelled for several hundred attendees at the annual convention of the National Religious Broadcasters (NRB). The audience leapt to its feet with generous applause at the film’s conclusion—moved by the undaunted attempts of the Darwin-doubters (and their filmmaking allies) as they challenge the elites in America’s educational and scientific establishments. Many of these Darwin challengers find themselves pitted against powerful evolutionists who despotically protect their evolution belief system, and sometimes expel those who would dare question Darwin.


Quote
Before Tuesday’s film preview, Mr. Stein spent 15 minutes chatting with AiG-U.S. President Ken Ham, who informed Mr. Stein that he had seen a director’s cut of Expelled last month at AiG’s Creation Museum. Ben told Ken that he was aware of the “wonderful” facility near Cincinnati and hoped to visit one day


At the very least he's sypathetic to their cause:

Quote
Ken noted that while Stein is not a biblical creationist, the film he hosts provides a valuable service, as it exposes the tyranny of leaders in the evolutionist community. The film, notes Ken, also reveals the massive scientific problems with evolution theory.

“Freedom is the essence of America,” Stein declares in his narration. He adds that science is supposed “to pursue any line of inquiry,” but when it comes to evolution, that practice is not just ignored, but the freedoms of Darwin-questioners are trampled upon. Several such examples are presented in the film.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,14:09   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Mar. 12 2008,20:16)
Anyone live near Chicago, and want to see Expelled?

     
Quote
This might interest some people:

<blockquote>You are invited to a FREE PRIVATE SCREENING of Ben Stein’s upcoming, history-making film, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Opening in theaters April 2008).


....
<br /><br />

The private screening details are as follows:<br />

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2008<br />

Time: 7:00PM<br />

Location: AMC Lowes Streets of Woodfield 20, 601 N. <br />Martingale Rd., Suite 185, Schaumburg, IL 60173


RSVP: http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled <br /><br />

For some reason this takes you to the list of all of the private screenings for Expelled, which is not where I was when I copied the address.  But then, that's all the better [this paragraph was added in edit]



Source for the above
Glen D

I am tempted to go, since it is my neck of the woods, BUT I would be hard-pressed to maintain a polite silence.  I would probably laugh when they were trying to be serious and boo whenever Stein or other DI hack was on screen.  

I would be very worried about giving all the ID Creationist's the wrong impression that all Atheistic God-Hatin' Darwinistas were as rude as me.

added in edit:  That said, Pastor J-Dog will attend and bring 3 guests (the upper limit of allowed guests on their site).

added in edit: Everyone here could help me out by also signing up for 3 tickets.  That way I can stretch out, and not have to worry about the theater getting too crowded.
They are not actually using tickets per the email I received back from them, they are only screening with a list of approved names at the door.

ps:  The site Glen linked to requires a "Title", so maybe a few Bishops, or Cardinals or Warlocks could also sign up for tickets.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10114
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,14:32   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Mar. 12 2008,20:16)
Anyone live near Chicago, and want to see Expelled?

   
Quote
This might interest some people:

<blockquote>You are invited to a FREE PRIVATE SCREENING of Ben Stein’s upcoming, history-making film, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Opening in theaters April 2008).


....
<br /><br />

The private screening details are as follows:<br />

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2008<br />

Time: 7:00PM<br />

Location: AMC Lowes Streets of Woodfield 20, 601 N. <br />Martingale Rd., Suite 185, Schaumburg, IL 60173


RSVP: http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled <br /><br />

For some reason this takes you to the list of all of the private screenings for Expelled, which is not where I was when I copied the address.  But then, that's all the better [this paragraph was added in edit]



Source for the above
Glen D

Crap. I would, but I'm in Houston. J-Dog?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,14:35   

Source for the above
Glen D[/quote][/quote]
Crap. I would, but I'm in Houston. J-Dog?[/quote]
I just PM'd you dude - Nomad?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,14:56   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 13 2008,14:32)
 
Quote (Glen Davidson @ Mar. 12 2008,20:16)
Anyone live near Chicago, and want to see Expelled?

       
Quote
This might interest some people:

<blockquote>You are invited to a FREE PRIVATE SCREENING of Ben Stein’s upcoming, history-making film, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Opening in theaters April 2008).


....
<br /><br />

The private screening details are as follows:<br />

Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2008<br />

Time: 7:00PM<br />

Location: AMC Lowes Streets of Woodfield 20, 601 N. <br />Martingale Rd., Suite 185, Schaumburg, IL 60173


RSVP: http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled <br /><br />

For some reason this takes you to the list of all of the private screenings for Expelled, which is not where I was when I copied the address.  But then, that's all the better [this paragraph was added in edit]



Source for the above
Glen D

Crap. I would, but I'm in Houston. J-Dog?

Not to worry, there will be a showing in Houston:
 
Quote

AZ Tempe Harkins Arizona Mills April 3 7:00 PM  RSVP  
CA Dublin Regal Hacienda Crossings 21 March 26 7:00 PM  RSVP  
CA Santa Clara AMC Mercado 20 March 27 8:00 PM  RSVP  
CO Broomfield (Denver) AMC Flatiron Crossing April 2 7:00 PM  RSVP  
FL Lake Buena Vista (Orlando) AMC Pleasure Island 24 March 18 7:00 PM  RSVP  
GA Decatur (Atlanta) AMC North Dekalb Mall 16 March 25 7:00 PM  RSVP  
IL Deerfield Trinity International University March 18 1:00 PM  RSVP  
IL Schaumburg (Chicago) AMC Loews Streets of Woodfield 20 March 18 7:00 PM  RSVP  
KY Louisville National Amusements Showcase Cinemas Stoneybrook March 31 7:00 PM  RSVP  
MA Cambridge AMC Loews Harvard Square 5 March 19 7:00 PM  RSVP  
MD Owings Mills (Baltimore) AMC Owings Mills 17 April 1 7:00 PM  RSVP  
MI Grand Rapids Grand Rapids First March 4 3:30 PM Done  
MI Livonia (Detroit) AMC Livonia 20 March 26 7:00 PM  RSVP  
MN Bloomington AMC Mall of America 14 March 20 7:00 PM  RSVP  
MO Creve Coeur (St. Louis) AMC Creve Coeur 12 March 12 7:00 PM Done  
MO Kansas City Ward Parkway Theater March 4 7:00 PM Done  
NC Charlotte AMC Carolina Pavilion 22 March 10 7:00 PM Done  
NM Albuquerque Century Rio 24 March 6 2:00 PM Done  
OH Brooklyn (Cleveland) AMC Ridge Park Square 8 March 19 7:00 PM  RSVP  
OR Portland PENDING - CLICK BUTTON TO BE ADDED TO OUR WAITLIST March 25 TBD Waitlist  
PA Plymouth Meeting (Philly) AMC Plymouth Meeting March 27 7:00 PM  RSVP  
TN Franklin Carmike Thoroughbred 20 March 10 7:00 PM Done  
TX Houston River Oaks Theatre March 13 7:00 PM Full  
TX San Antonio Santikos Palladium IMAX March 12 7:00 PM Done  
WA Seattle PENDING - CLICK BUTTON TO BE ADDED TO OUR WAITLIST March 24 TBD Waitlist  
WI Milwaukee AMC Mayfair Mall 18 April 8 7:00 PM  RSVP  
 

http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled


Added in edit:

Oh, damn, the Houston showing is today, but already full.  Well, there are still other possibilities, they're just farther away.

Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,14:59   

Ha Ha - Kristine !

Mall of America on March 20!  Let me know if you will need some more room - I have a couple of puppets that are ready to take Holy Orders and get you some space.

Maybe someone should contact P Zed about the date and time?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,16:52   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 13 2008,13:59)
Ha Ha - Kristine !

Mall of America on March 20!  Let me know if you will need some more room - I have a couple of puppets that are ready to take Holy Orders and get you some space.

Maybe someone should contact P Zed about the date and time?

SSSShhhhhhhhh! :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10114
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,19:34   

IL Schaumburg (Chicago) AMC Loews Streets of Woodfield 20 March 18 7:00 PM  RSVP  


Might be able to do that one.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Fross



Posts: 71
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,20:46   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 11 2008,13:19)
It's better than that.  After the fundies see it on opening day*, the negative reviews will come out, no-one else shows up, and they'll start showing it in church basements.  The marketing will then be "Expelled was #7 on opening weekend, before the Evil Darwinist/Atheist/Nazi/Stalinist Conspiracy produced all those scathing reviews and got it thrown out of commercial cinemas.  See the film THEY don't want you to see."  Ka-ching! Thank you very much!





* I'm not convinced this will be enough people to give it more than a half-decent opening weekend.  "The strongest opening weekend ever" is going to be well out of reach.


[edit - fixed a couple of sloppy word choices.  Either too much coffee this morning, or not enough.]

It will make for a good sequel.

"Expelled Expelled"

--------------
"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
Fross



Posts: 71
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,20:52   

Quote (Jason Spaceman @ Mar. 04 2008,08:46)
Ben Stein writes in today's WingNutDaily: Charles Darwin:  Imperialism's pawn

[quote]

Alas, Darwinism has had a far bloodier life span than imperialism. Darwinism, perhaps mixed with imperialism, gave us Social Darwinism, a form of racism so vicious that it countenanced the Holocaust against the Jews and mass murder of many other groups in the name of speeding along the evolutionary process.

quote]

I'd suggest that the misunderstanding of evolution gave rise to these atrocities.  Just like the same misunderstandings give rise to the ID movement and movies hosted by D list actors.

--------------
"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,22:40   

I'm in.  I can't let the rest of the Chicago crew have all the fun...  or, alternatively, I can't in good conscience stay at home while you sacrifice your sanity by looking upon the unholy image of Ben Stein wearing shorts and knee high socks.

I'm just not sure that they'd buy it if I registered as Cardinal Nomad and showed up in full regalia.  Suspicions might be raised, no matter how much fun it might be to try.  I admit that it'd be a kick and a half to claim to represent a local pagan church, but I don't think I want to push my luck.

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,22:53   

At the Mall of America on March 20? That's tempting.

--------------
Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,08:10   

Quote (Nomad @ Mar. 13 2008,22:40)
I'm in.  I can't let the rest of the Chicago crew have all the fun...  or, alternatively, I can't in good conscience stay at home while you sacrifice your sanity by looking upon the unholy image of Ben Stein wearing shorts and knee high socks.

I'm just not sure that they'd buy it if I registered as Cardinal Nomad and showed up in full regalia.  Suspicions might be raised, no matter how much fun it might be to try.  I admit that it'd be a kick and a half to claim to represent a local pagan church, but I don't think I want to push my luck.

Cardinal Nomad - What's the matter - You couldn't get an altar boy to attend you on a school night?  

Or alternatively, you could show up without the altar boy, and then they would know for sure you weren't a Cardinal...

However, bad news from me - My son, who IS altar boy age, has a baseball practice, and since I am part of the coaching fraternity, we really can not skip it, and he's been out with an injury, and needs the practice to help him recover.  

Much as I would really enjoy tweaking Ben Stein's nose, I would rather take care of the kid.   I am tempted to ask them if they would rent the theater for Wed night too, so Pastor Joe and his flock can view it.  Damn.  If only I weren't the only damn atheist in the world with morals.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,12:03   

A cross-post from Expelled (post is pending over there at this time):

Quote
Quote
Science protects dogs, but why should it protect kids’ minds?

Your dog’s foods and drugs have to be vetted by scientific methods, for your sake and for their protection.

But hey, why should science be used to vet the information taught to children in science classes? I mean, why should children’s minds be protected from untested ideas using at least the same standards used
for dog food? Sure, science is proper to keeping dog’s lives safe and whole, but children’s minds aren’t worthy of any such protections.

No, tested ideas, and ideas which have either failed the test, or carefully avoided tests altogether (as ID at least attempts to do), are all equal for teaching to children. Their minds can be filled with any kind of rot and abracadabra, but we’ll sue if you put scientifically unproven ingredients in our dogs’ food.

So yeah, it’s all science for our dogs. Florida’s kids? Get real, we’ll tell them anything in science class. It’s all the same to us whether those ideas have passed scientific tests or not.

A child’s mind is not such a terrible thing to waste after all. What is put into it hardly merits the same scrutiny that the food put into a dog’s belly does.

And you know, ID is all about the children–treating their minds as more expendable than our dogs.


This is cross-posted (by the author) from Talkorigins.

And no, don’t tell me that the difference is that children can decide what is science. They cannot, they must be taught science in a legitimate fashion in the first place, and then they can choose between a science that they understand and anything else that they might prefer to it.


Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2008,14:48   

So, are any of us going to attend the Schaumburg Showing tonight?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2008,15:41   

Quote
But hey, why should science be used to vet the information taught to children in science classes?

Ofcourse, it would be completly ridiculous if science would teach science! I mean, science is best learned from people who've got nothing to do with science, isn't that SO obvious?
With things like that, I even start thinking if people in the project aren't starting to back off. Even those people have limits.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2008,16:00   

Well I see that the Schaumberg showing is full--and so is the Florida showing (I mention that because I brought up that showing on the FCS site, and at least one person signed up).  I just hope it's not nearly all people rooting for the anti-science side.

Perhaps none of this information is new to those who are going to go to the advance showings, but I thought I'd reproduce a list of the people who do come up in the movie in case anyone is interested:

 
Quote
Peter Atkins

David Berlinski

Michael Behe

Walter Bradley

Bruce Chapman

Caroline Crocker

William Dembski

Daniel Dennett


Michael Egnor

Steve Fuller


Maciej Giertych


Guillermo Gonzalez


Richard Dawkins


Robert Marks

Stephen C. Meyer

PZ Myers

Paul Nelson


Philip Pettit

William Provine

Gerald Schroeder


Jeffrey M Schwartz

Eugenie Scott

Michael Shermer

Richard Sternberg

Kathleen Kennedy Townsend

Jonathan Wells

Richard Weikart

http://www.arn.org/expelled/


It could be useful to know whose names will come up in the movie, I figure.  One review said that William Provine has one of the longer interview times in Expelled.

Glen D

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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2008,16:10   

Let's say I'm going to make a concerted effort to go.  I don't know what sort of traffic I may encounter, if it gets bad enough I may turn around since, let's just face it, my desire to see this movie isn't exactly sky high to begin with.

Having to put up with Ben Stein in shorts and knee high socks pretending to be a rebel while defending established dogma is bad enough.  I don't want to have to deal with gridlock in order to get that privilege.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2008,19:41   

Ben has tried to hide his moronic movie from scientists and others competent to judge.  But what do you know, he isn't so chary with a big fat blowhard who doesn't understand any aspect of the issues involved.  Cross-posted from Talkorigins:

Quote
Quote
Ben Stein's Film Blew Rush Away

March 18, 2008


Listen To It!  WMP | RealPlayer

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BEGIN TRANSCRIPT


RUSH: Ben Stein has a new movie out.  He brought it by my house Friday afternoon to screen it for me.  It's called Expelled.  It is powerful.  It is fabulous.


Good idea, Stein, bringing it by the egregious Rush.  Much better than showing it to anyone who understands science, history, truth.

Quote
And here's the premise of his movie.  The premise is that Darwinism has taken root, taken hold at every major intellectual institution around the world in Western Society, from Great Britain to the United States, you name it.


My God, so has QM and General Relativity.  The bastards at Big Science!

Quote
Darwinism, of course, does not permit for the existence of a supreme being, a higher power, or a God.


Rush, the Catholic, doesn't know his own religion, let alone anything else.

Quote
His interviews with some of the professors who espouse Darwinism are literally shocking.  The condescension and the arrogance these people have, they will readily admit that Darwinism and evolution do not explain how life began.


The condescension, the arrogance, to actually admit that MET doesn't address the beginning of life (at least not the earliest stages of abiogenesis).  This contrasts with the humility of Limbaugh and Stein, who'll insist that unknown causes were responsible, sans any evidence whatsoever (don't get me wrong, I don't pretend that Dawkins is humble.  He's not, but he's hardly the blowhard that either Stein or Limbaugh is).

Quote
One of these professors said it might have been that a hyper-intelligence from another planet came here and started our race.  This from some professor either in the UK, I forget where it was, but can't be God.


Geez, Rush, even I know that was Dawkins, and I didn't see the stupid movie yet.  

It can't be God (as a scientific cause) for epistemological reasons, because although we have reason to believe that aliens might exist, we have none that God ...[could]--at least no scientific evidence.  That doesn't mean that we rule out God in an absolute sense, we just recognize our limits.  You belligerent morons recognize few if any limits, no matter how legitimate.

Quote
These people are so threatened by the existence of God,


No, we are constrained by our limitations.  Would that you were as conservative with respect to making claims as scientists are.

Quote
they will not permit intelligent design to be discussed.


Is this why it is discussed a great deal (including by scientists), despite the fact that there is no merit [in ID] for said discussions?

Quote
Professors have been fired, blackballed, and prevented from working who have deigned to try to combine the whole concept of evolution with intelligent design.


In other words, pseudoscience is not allowed in, due to its evidentiary and methodological failings.

The rest, and the article sans my own commentary, is here:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home....st.html

Glen D


--------------
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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,01:14   

Well.. that was an experience.  I know there are differing thoughts on whether we should patronize this movie, but I took the approach that I'd spent enough time reading about the fundagelicals and their behavior and it was time I went out and experienced them in reality.  A free chance to see the movie was sort of the putrid icing on the moldy cake.

I'm still trying to digest the experience, but figure that I'd better try to get the details out while they're still fresh in my mind.  I'm terrible at sorting this sort of thing out and laying it down in an organized fashion, and I also am pretty much incapable of being brief.  You have been warned.

The first thing that I noticed when walking towards the theater from the parking lot was the police car parked immediately outside the theater entrance.  Surely that couldn't have anything to do with this movie, I figured.  I walked in, suddenly feeling embarrassed to even be there and too ashamed to ask anyone where I was supposed to go for the Expelled screening.

But I found the group, we were being corralled into several lines.  We were told that no bags or purses would be allowed in to the theater.  At least one woman sent her purse back to her car.  After a while we were fed over to another area, where we were told to sign small paper forms that explained that the movie was not in final release form yet and that also, in bold and underlined text, stated that recording the movie was a federal offense, blah blah blah.  I guess they figured that if they only bolded it or only underlined it people might ignore it, but nobody can resist bolded and underlined text.

At that time it was restated that no bags would be allowed, and that everyone would need to show a photo ID, causing the woman who sent her purse back to her car to have to go back out to get her ID.

As I was filling out my name and giving them the email address I created specifically for this endeavor I couldn't help but notice the pair of night vision goggles sitting on the same table.  This was not the cheapo $300 first generation monocle that you might have seen in an optics store.  This was a binocular, dual tube (I specify that because some NVGs have one input but split it so both eyes can see) setup with a band so that it could be warn on the head, military style.

My suspicions about the NVGs were fulfilled when the guy leading the sign in process announced that they'd seen on the web that "some group" was going to try to sneak someone in to record the whole movie.  Later he explained further that somewhere online a group had suggested a challenge to try to get a copy of the movie so that it could be distributed via torrent.  It was explained that the police officer (described as being off duty but still wearing official uniform and using a police car) would be walking around the theater using the NVGs to look for anyone trying record the movie secretly.  He further asked the audience to be on the look out for anything suspicious around them.  In other words, rat on your neighbors.

Earlier a woman had opted not to see the movie because she didn't want to leave her purse in her car, explaining that she knew of instances where cars had been broken into and robbed in that same parking lot.  She protested, the guy doing the sign-in process explained that it was the rule and he couldn't break it.  Fine.

But once inside the theater, with the woman gone, a representative from the production company (I wish I could remember his name, but it totally slipped my mind, he appeared to be fairly high ranking though) made a joke that only one person had complained about the process, and the policeman hand cuffed her and took her away.

A mild chuckle passed through the audience.

Way to go, Mr Two Face, I'm thinking to myself.  A woman is concerned about her purse being stolen from her car, and as soon as she's gone he's joking about her being a dissident and having the cops haul her away.

One of the things I was interested in was seeing what sort of audience would come to see this movie.  Of course I had my expectations, but I wanted to find out.  Since I was alone I waited quietly and listened to all the conversations going on around me.  Some were talking about the problems of church finance, someone mentioned in particular that an estimated 80% of all church donations come from elderly women.  Also there was mention of Narnia, talk of how it supposedly showed that theologically based movies can do well in secular society.  Oddly enough they were also talking a lot about Lord of the Rings and the impending production of The Hobbit.

In the theater sat near different people and I started hearing someone else talking about some meeting he was going to be attending soon.  The topic of it was to be "the theological implications of the multiverse".  He explained the multiverse to someone unfamiliar with the concept by saying that once the Anthropic Principle had "proved" that the universe was designed scientists had to come up with the multiverse to explain it away.

I sort of felt like Bruce Banner trying to fight down the rage, except that in my case it wasn't really rage, it was just a tendency to want to blurt out various things because I'm a know-it-all.  I wanted to explain that many worlds theory was a mathematical result of string theory which he would never be able to get his tiny little mind around if he lived to be a thousand.  I say this with near certainty that I will never adequately understand anything about it either, the math will always be beyond me as well.

There was also a little complaining about how kids believe in dinosaurs and that it's impossible to know that they lived millions of years ago, further lamenting that some dinosaurs have been constructed from only four teeth.

He told a story about how he had once been asked whether he was for the Earth being 300 million years old or 6000.  Causing me to wonder just who thinks the Earth is 300 million years old?  He was fully in the 6000 year group, further extolling the evidence of a young Earth like the evidence that a flood made the Grand Canyon.  I had to chuckle (very quietly) at comments like this.  It was the only way to remain sane in that insane environment.  I wanted to try to remain undercover, I wanted to observe the fundie in it's native environment without altering it's behavior.

There was also at least one token comment against global warming.  It was just the sort of crowd you'd expect, all that was missing was a little whispered holocaust denial.


The movie was played through a digital projector clearly fed by a laptop, using what looked like Itunes!  The frame rate wasn't even smooth, they couldn't be bothered to get hardware that could adequately play it back!  It started off with black and white footage, possibly some genuine but certainly some was shot more recently and then made to look old, of what looked like the Berlin Wall being built interspersed with children playing in an old timey way, bouncing around a small ball.  Yes, I get the oh so subtle metaphor.  Won't somebody think of the children.  Very clever.  This was a metaphor that they'd return to later in the film.  While the credits appear on screen string music is played.  It took me a moment to recognize that it was Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall".  A perhaps somewhat ironic choice, given the well known lyrics "we don't need no education" and the current approach of ID.  I guess it's ironic to me, but apropos to those who were meant to see the movie.  One man's crappy science education is another man's religiously motivated ideal.


I don't need to tell many specifics of what was in the movie.  You all know, you could have written the movie yourselves.  All the usual martyrs are trotted out and tell their story of oppression and suffering and claim that their right to free thought and free speech was violated.  "If only", I think to myself as they whine on and on about how mean their colleagues are.  They're getting in an awful lot of talking despite being unable to speak freely.  The accusation of violation of freedom of thought is as absurd as it ever is unless the evil Darwinist alliance is implanting mind control devices in all dissidents.  And if they are.. someone needs to tell them that they're not working properly.

Somehow the issues such as Gonzalez' failure to secure research grants or Crocker's telling outright lies in class to her students are...  no, I won't say "expelled" from the movie, it's too predictable, let's just say creatively ignored.

I laughed out loud when Robert Marks and the "evolutionary informatics lab" were mentioned.  Marks is there on screen talking about how that's what researchers do, they make "labs" by putting a name on a website and hosting it on a computer and use that entity to try to get funding.  He didn't even attempt to claim that there was a REAL laboratory associated with it, he just passed it off as standard practice.  Then he claims that it was shut down by the evil Baylor establishment.  That's funny, I thought I remember reading that all he had to do was add a disclaimer that the website wasn't officially associated with Baylor... I guess I must not have read that, because the makers of this movie wouldn't be lying to their audience now would they?

I will say my one nice thing about the movie by saying that they don't seem to have used a great deal of creative editing in distorting the interviews with real scientists.  What they did do was catch a few people with a few awkward questions, the results certainly played into the hands of the filmmakers.  In particular I will say that the well known anti theistic stance of Richard Dawkins was just eaten up by the audience.  I'm not making a value judgment here, I LIKE Dawkins, but in this situation his approach has helped the ID movement.  He spoke out against religion and the filmmakers parlayed that into attempting to portray that the entire scientific world is anti religion.  I'm aware of the framing argument and I'm not taking sides in it, I won't say that he shouldn't say those things.

There was one moment in particular where the interview led to him stating what he thought would be the one way in which intelligent design might be proven correct in reality.  His explanation was that we might find evidence of aliens visiting the Earth and either intentionally or not leaving behind seed life forms.  The audience sputtered with mirth at this as Ben Stein's narration announced that this proved that Dawkins would accept SOME forms of intelligent design but not others.

For those Pharyngula fans out there I can say that I don't think PZ's remarks were at all abused.  He explains that he started out believing in religion but that the more he learned about science the less he felt the need for it.  I can actually say that I learned something (go ahead, quote mine that you dishonest hacks!) because I didn't know that he was formerly a theist.  They even mention the name of his blog, so it's possible that he may get some new readers from this.

It once again says something to their intended audience that they even put that interview segment into the movie.  If they were not religiously motivated then what relevance would that have on the merit of a scientific theory?



I don't know about actual percentages, but a good deal of the movie was taken up by the well known "Darwin led to Nazis" argument.  Ben Stein goes to a memorial site where thousands of prisoners were executed and looks all pained and holds his head in his hands to emphasize how terrible it was, and I just wanted to yell into his wrinkled old ear that Hitler was guided at least as much by religious doctrine as he may have been by a mistaken interpretation of science.  Does the fact that the Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles with "God with us" engraved on them in German mean that I can go around saying that religion is to blame for the Holocaust?

This obsession with the holocaust just went on and on.  It even lead to Planned Parenthood of all places.  This was among the most disturbing moments of the film.  The PP logo appears on screen and the audience collectively sucked in their breath as if they'd unexpectedly come face to face with the devil himself.  The movie goes on to suggest that Planned Parenthood is proof that Eugenics is alive and well in society today (because of evolution, of course).  Why, pray tell?  Because they provide birth control to the poor, of course.  Allowing the poor to not have children if they so wish qualifies as Eugenics to these people!  It goes on to suggest that abortion and euthenasia, both of which we're told devalue human life (yeah, letting a terminally ill patient end his life with dignity instead of wasting away in a haze of suffering until, finally, mercifully, his biological functions cease to operate, that devalues human life), are also the results of evolution.

It's all there in some form or another.  The idea that scientists are motivated by dogmatic belief in Darwin's specific theory, with no suggestion that a few changes might have occurred through the years.  Preach the controversy, proved by people saying that since the scientists disagree with them there must be a controversy.

Even a most curious suggestion that the US is the "worst" in the world in terms of governmentally censuring ID.  Could this be because the US is the primary place where religiously motivated people are trying to damage the scientific education of other people's children in order to spread their own beliefs?

They also had some CG that looked very much like the famous XVIVO video that Dembski stole and then lied about.  I'm not saying it was the same, it looked similar but it may well have been a different animation made specifically for the movie.  But it contains the same well known flaws that serve to make the workings of a cell look much more machine-like than they really do, and the audience gasped in awe as they were told how a single cell is like a complex machine.


The movie makes a token effort to say "this isn't about religion" at the beginning.  But the best they can do is ask the leading lights of ID if it's about religion and have them say "no it isn't".  This fails to be convincing since so much of the movie harps on and on about how all evolutionists are atheists bent on destroying religion (including the claim that Eugenie Scott is preaching atheism to religious groups) and hits on all the fundamentalist high points like abortion.  It demands that evolution is in contradiction with religion and scorns any who suggest otherwise.  Yes, I know that that means that they're rejecting the Vatican.  Let's face it, this movie was not made for Catholics.  They don't have to try hard to deny the association between ID and religion because their target audience is religious.


This was sort of rammed home after the movie when the production company representative started up a Q&A session with the audience.  At one point he mentioned the websites for the movie, and specified that one was more for the promotion of the movie itself and one was more for the religious people to get information to assist in spreading the message.


Two audience members slightly redeemed themselves in my opinion by asking slightly intelligent questions or making statements to that effect.  One mentioned that the movie kinda sorta might just maybe have gone too far in the beginning as painting the evolution supporters as representing Stalinist Germany before they showed their true nature later in the movie.  He went on to say that he was certain that some people would use scenes from the movie as an illustration of ad hominem attacks.

To illustrate the fast and loose definition of science that the producers were playing with: the man that asked that question identified himself as someone who teaches "origin studies".  After that description the representative called him a scientist and flattered him by saying that he was certain that this man knew much more than he did.  Ultimately the issue of possible dishonesty was dodged with the explanation that, after all, the purpose of the movie was to entertain.

A woman asked about the scene where Ben Stein and the film crew barge in to the Smithsonian and are told to leave by security.  She said that that's the sort of thing that Michael Moore would do, staging things like that for effect.  She asked if an attempt was made to set up a real interview before doing that.

She never really got an honest answer from that, the rep weaseled his way out without saying anything specifically.


These incidences give me hope.  Not much hope, mind you, but still to me it shows that at least some of these people are still willing to critically analyze these things to at least some degree.  Or perhaps they were darwinist conspiracy plants, who can say.  If that woman was willing to point out that the filmmakers used that dishonest tactic now, perhaps she'll be interested enough to research the issues beyond what she's told by the ID supporters themselves.

I did not ask the film rep any questions.  I thought about it, but the fact is I think I'd be poor at PR work like that.  I'm too high strung to be calm when situations like that demand it, and I'm prone to acting elitist which would turn everyone against me instantly.  There were some questions which deserved to be asked, but I didn't want to take the responsibility of asking them in such a high profile situation.


As a final comment, I'm curious about the story about a group trying to infiltrate and record the movie.  I know that in this thread it has been suggested that we could just wait and watch the movie once it shows up on bittorrent, and I know that the filmmakers are aware of this forum since one of them ran away from it after he was asked too many questions he couldn't answer (this despite proudly declaring that what they want is an open exchange of ideas tonight, that he wants people to disagree with him).  That's hardly a conspiracy to infiltrate and record, but...  come on, look at their established level of honesty.  What would play out better than requiring police protection of their (pseudo)intellectual property?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,07:33   

Quote (Nomad @ Mar. 19 2008,02:14)
Earlier a woman had opted not to see the movie because she didn't want to leave her purse in her car, explaining that she knew of instances where cars had been broken into and robbed in that same parking lot.  She protested, the guy doing the sign-in process explained that it was the rule and he couldn't break it.  Fine.

Thank you, Nomad, for taking one for the team like that.

It must have taken a great force of will to not tease the inmates.

Odd how they go to such lengths to protect their own property, but don't give a rat's ass about anyone else's.

Oh wait.  That's not at all odd for them, it's par for the course.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,07:58   

Quote (Nomad @ Mar. 19 2008,01:14)
I know that in this thread it has been suggested that we could just wait and watch the movie once it shows up on bittorrent

It's out already on bittorrent. I would link to it but no doubt the next headline would be "ATBC pirates EXPELLED".

I can't verify that the torrent contains what it says it does however, but I doubt anyone would bother to lie. .

As I say, I'm not linking to it but if you really want it then search for "bittorrent" and "expelled" and you'll soon find it!

And if you've never used torrents before the I recommend utorrent as the client.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,08:03   

Thank you so much Nomad!

I have informed the ADL of 'EXPELLED'.  They might ignore it, but Im hoping they officially denounce the film.

We slaughter the science, ADL slaughters the 'philosophy'.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,08:07   

Nomad - I salute you!

Outstanding report, thank you for going, and reporting on it.

Maybe the most important information is the likelihood of them using the stolen cell-footage in the film...

Thanks again.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
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