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  Topic: Frontloading--Dumbest Idea Evar?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,22:48   

This might not deserve its own thread. Ed Brayton has a new post on Exaptation vs Frontloading which is crossposted to PT, and it got me thinking. I've only known about this 'frontloading' nonsense for about a year. The moment I was exposed to the idea, I had the thought I've since had every time it's come up, which is pretty frequent on UD: Is frontloading the dumbest idea ever, or merely extremely stupid?

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,22:54   

well, IIRC, the strict concept of frontloading has been around for quite a while, in one form or another; it just shifted mechanisms as the field of genetics was fleshed out.

is it the dumbest idea ever?

naww.  not by a longshot; without knowing any better, you could easily be fooled into thinking it makes sense.

example:

the immune system.

without knowing any better, one might conclude that antibodies to all infectious agents that ever existed are front-loaded into a genome.

hence, the idea persists, even into the present, maintained just like the idea of a 6k year earth by people who have somehow decided for themselves that it is more parsimonious with their religious fantasies.

I have only ever seen ONE real frontloading supporter around PT, though, and that was Blast-from-the-past.

if you want to see how frontloaders think, you might try searching on the thread about the evolution of snake venom, and check out his "arguments".  They are pretty representative of how front loaders think.

ah, that wasn't too hard.

check out the threads on snake venom (Fry's work) on this page:

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/shoptalk/

IIRC, Blast did a decent job of expanding on his ideas for how snake venom is a front-loaded trait, and was of course shredded by no less than the author of the paper himself, lenny, myself, and several others piled on.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,22:58   

You could peruse Telic Thoughts too.  IIRC, frontloading is the main game in town for them.

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Evolander in training

  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,22:59   

As Ed points out, mutations would render front-loaded information so worthless so fast I just can't understand how anyone could believe it.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:01   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,22:59)
As Ed points out, mutations would render front-loaded information so worthless so fast I just can't understand how anyone could believe it.

holy crap.  you can watch FTK post here on a daily basis, can recall the "creator god" thread from Airhead Dave, and you can't understand THIS one?

I think it's time you troll telic thoughts and invite a front-loader on by.

you'll understand, if be sickened by, their "logic" soon enough.

*evil grin*

btw, IIRC, blast used to explain the "mutation" issue by saying that most of these "genes" were placed in non-encoding regions of the DNA, and so were somehow exempt from mutation.  then, as they are needed, they are "called" to "active duty".

please, don't ask me to explain that.

please.

I just ate.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:04   

It's very hard to get creationists to come by here anymore. We've got a reputation. When I invite them, they react as if I'm inviting them to inspect our new Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder up close and personal.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:05   

MUHAHAHAHA!!

I feel like quoting a line from Fargo, but I'm just not sure which one.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:08   



"He was kinda funny-lookin..."

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:13   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,23:08)


"He was kinda funny-lookin..."

"The heck do ya mean? "

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:14   

"You know...just kinda funny-lookin"

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:14   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,23:04)
It's very hard to get creationists to come by here anymore. We've got a reputation. When I invite them, they react as if I'm inviting them to inspect our new Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder up close and personal.

Quote
So that was Mrs. Lundegaard on the floor in there. And I guess that was your accomplice in the wood chipper. And those three people in Brainerd. And for what? For a little bit of money. There's more to life than a little money, you know. Don't you know that? And here ya are, and it's a beautiful day. Well, I just don't understand it.


--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1006
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:14   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,23:04)
It's very hard to get creationists to come by here anymore. We've got a reputation. When I invite them, they react as if I'm inviting them to inspect our new Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder up close and personal.

Demise by Troy-Bilt is a process known as morselization.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:17   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,23:14)
"You know...just kinda funny-lookin"

"Can you be any more specific? "

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:18   

Yikes. How horrible.

Everyone speculates on what the best death would be like, though I doubt anyone has concluded Death by Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder.

   
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:20   

FYI, I think the best death would be the one described by Hunter Thompson, where you put a case of Wild Turkey on the passenger seat of the convertible, turn the radio way up and the lights etc, and start taking those dangerous Kentucky curves way too fast.

(that's a vague memory. Read it years ago. But anyone who's been on those dangerous Kentucky curves knows what I'm talking about)

   
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:26   

I wish he could have decided at least to experiment with the idea, rather than taking a gun to his head.

I miss that guy.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2007,23:26   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,23:20)
FYI, I think the best death would be the one described by Hunter Thompson, where you put a case of Wild Turkey on the passenger seat of the convertible, turn the radio way up and the lights etc, and start taking those dangerous Kentucky curves way too fast.

(that's a vague memory. Read it years ago. But anyone who's been on those dangerous Kentucky curves knows what I'm talking about)

As it turned out, Thompson's real death was--how to say it?--less than ideal.

Sigh. . . :(

ETA: Oops, I cross-posted with Ichthyic.

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Evolander in training

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,06:19   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2007,23:04)
It's very hard to get creationists to come by here anymore. We've got a reputation. When I invite them, they react as if I'm inviting them to inspect our new Troy-Bilt Chipper Shredder up close and personal.

We seem to be getting some cranks in the ID forum.  I'm seeing if I can have some fun.  
Lenny has already told one of them that ID is dead, and Arden is joining in the fun.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,12:22   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 10 2007,22:05)
MUHAHAHAHA!!

I feel like quoting a line from Fargo, but I'm just not sure which one.

"Two more months." :)

ID is brain-dead, but I suppose they'll just keep the front-loading on life-support and remain in denial.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,13:23   

Front-loading is also an idea proposed by John Davison in his extraordinary anti-darwinian work Evolutionary Manifesto. Such an idea of front-loading seems to better explain evolution as darwinian mantras of random mutation and natural selection does.

I would say that the Nature itself gives us some examples when the same DNA  contains information for different morphological structures - larvae, pupa, butterfly - as is the case of metamorphosis. That these three different morphological structures of the same indivudal evolved gradually via random mutation&natural selection is probably another darwinian fancy.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,13:28   

interestingly, I think the arguments over Black Box were what caused the front-loading concept to be folded into the big-tent of ID.

going back 7 years, for example, you can check out the responses to Miller's trashing of the book on Disco's own website:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts....&id=287

my point is, that just like most of the concepts creobots use, they endlessly produce MUS (made up shit) to cover the reasons why these concepts are not viable, nor applicable.

which ends up making the front-loading argument not quite as simple to dismiss as the mutation point would suggest.

I guess I'm just trying to point out why it sticks around.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Rev. BigDumbChimp



Posts: 185
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,13:29   

Quote (VMartin @ June 11 2007,13:23)
Front-loading is also an idea proposed by John Davison in his extraordinary anti-darwinian work Evolutionary Manifesto. Such an idea of front-loading seems to better explain evolution as darwinian mantras of random mutation and natural selection does.

I would say that the Nature itself gives us some examples when the same DNA  contains information for different morphological structures - larvae, pupa, butterfly - as is the case of metamorphosis. That these three different morphological structures of the same indivudal evolved gradually via random mutation&natural selection is probably another darwinian fancy.

Oh boy look who's joined the party. JA Davison's personal patter-of-the-back, VMartin.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,13:29   

Quote
Such an idea of front-loading seems to better explain evolution as darwinian mantras of random mutation and natural selection does.


Can you give us an example?

Quote
That these three different morphological structures of the same indivudal evolved gradually via random mutation&natural selection is probably another darwinian fancy.


You say probably. Is there some doubt in your mind then? What experiments could be conducted to remove that doubt?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,13:31   

Quote (VMartin @ June 11 2007,13:23)
Front-loading is also an idea proposed by John Davison in his extraordinary anti-darwinian work Evolutionary Manifesto. Such an idea of front-loading seems to better explain evolution as darwinian mantras of random mutation and natural selection does.

I would say that the Nature itself gives us some examples when the same DNA  contains information for different morphological structures - larvae, pupa, butterfly - as is the case of metamorphosis. That these three different morphological structures of the same indivudal evolved gradually via random mutation&natural selection is probably another darwinian fancy.

that's funny, Martin.

when DaveScott brought up the idea of front-loading as applying to JAD's PEH, JAD specifically said it had nothing to do with it.  the resulting argument lead to the first time JAD was banned from UD.

I think you'd best go back and coordinate with your idol again.

Indeed, JAD is very fond of saying that he didn't disagree with the accepted mechanisms of the ToE, but only that evolution stopped long ago.

or haven't you noticed the line he uses as a sig for every post he makes?

I've actually read his PEH (still listed as the crankiest evolutionary concept EVER on crank.net, btw), and I don't recall any mention of front-loading.

care to point it out for us?

strike that.

encouraging any contribution from yourself is like asking for a migrane.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,12:45   

From the article:
Quote

The bottom line is that the evolutionary hypothesis, exaptation, predicts the evidence perfectly; the ID hypothesis is flatly contradicted by it and can only try to explain it away or invent mystical and unknown processes to circumvent the evidence.


Yet I somehow missed information for what these genes in the sea sponge serve for. Are we really witnessing "exaptation"?

Quote

So it seems to be with the genes for synapses.


Aha, so it just only "seems". Yet the readers are expected to blindly believe it.

Quote

The sea sponge did not use them for their current purpose, but that doesnít mean the genes had no use.


So the sea sponge did not use these genes for current purpose. Yet according "selfish gene" conception genes use organisms as their vehicle for their survival. So sometimes the genes use organisms and sometimes an organism uses the genes. It depends what darwinists want to explain. So or so. Darwinism is very flexible and dialectical theory.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Chris Hyland



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,12:56   

Quote
Yet I somehow missed information for what these genes in the sea sponge serve for. Are we really witnessing "exaptation"?
Well if they serve no purpose and are the result of frontloading then I suggest that you write a grant to perform some experiments to confirm this.

Quote
So sometimes the genes use organisms and sometimes an organism uses the genes
There is no reason why both cannot be true at the same time.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,13:34   

hey v-

I'm wondering....

do you and JAD share a prescription?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,14:17   

Quote

Well if they serve no purpose and are the result of frontloading then I suggest that you write a grant to perform some experiments to confirm this.


It's your conviction they have some purpose. I've only asked what.

You know it reminds me little to mushroom coloration. There should be some cryptic or aposematic function of  mushroom coloration according darwinism - and yet nobody know to explain it.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,14:22   

Quote

...do you and JAD share a prescription?


Let's call it using Bateson words: '...an unpacking of an original complex which contained within itself the whole range of diversity which living things present'.

More on John Davison opinion on the topic at:

http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-6-t-000370-p-44.html

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,14:37   

*whoosh*

yup, you guys must share a perscription alrighty.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
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