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  Topic: ID, anti-evolution and you, what brought you here?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,15:51   


This thread may sound a bit like the recent "where are you from" thread, but I’d like it more focused on your relationship with ID and other forms or creationism/anti-evolutionism. In other words, why are we here to discuss such topics?
I heard that some of us are evolutionary biologists, so their conflict with IDC would be clear. However, many of us are not biologist, and I would be curious to know the reasons why they became interested in this political/cultural debate.

I am from France, where creationism has lost all credibility for over a century, but I often heard, from a distance, that it was a more (vaguely) threatening movement in the US. But I never paid much attention to it. Though I’ve always been sort of fascinated by such ignorance and blindness.
I specialized in evolutionary biology 2.5 yeas ago, when I began my master. At this time, I never heard of “Intelligent Design”. This was before a mail was delivered in a mailing list (of a local association of evolutionary biologist) which related the event of one of the few ID paper that was published in a Peer review journal-the one by Steven C Meyer, in the proc. Of Washington-and the reaction that followed in Nature and Science. I first got intrigued, but I didn’t go any deeper in the topic at that time, though I read part of the paper.
Then, there was this mess around those sticker that were to be put on biology textbooks, in Arkansas I believe (or was it somewhere else?), and that were supposed to aid student keep an open mind about what was just a theory, evolutionary theory of course. I heard the news in a discussion board, the ars technica discussion board for those of you who know the site. I was amazed to witness the heated discussion between creationists (that were in minority) and defendant of science. Hopefully, ars technica is populated with educated people.
Then I became interested in the debate. Mostly, I was just a lurker, because most of the time, I dare not post comment in English (and this is also very time consuming for me), by I found that witness creationist’s argument being debunk in public very entertaining. People often resort to links toward talk origins, I then discovered the panda’s thumb.
Then I just googled for a real discussion board (not a blog), where creationism could be discussed, but among educated people; and google returned, the critique resource. I first though it was a anti-evolution website.
When I registered to the board, the most prolific topic was featuring Ghost of Paley and his gut to gamete / geocentric theory.
Meanwhile, I began my PhD on evolutionary ecology in a species of aphid, and I followed kitzmiller vs dover with moderate attention.
I’ve found here a bunch of fine people (most of you), and a few amusing jerks (AFDave, JAD…). I particularly appreciate the (now defunct) AFDave CGH and the uncommonly dense discussion thread, particularly, the erudition of Zach, the fun tidbits reported form UD by Phonon, the hilarious dt parody by Richard, Arden, Steve and others. I wish I could participate a bit more, but I mostly don’t have the time nor the motivation to post in English.

What’s your story?


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,16:32   

I get a lot of entertainment here. Without posting a big biographical piece--I have to run in a second--it's morbidly entertaining to watch the clueless creationists get reamed by the experts. The creationists are like some jerk who keys your car, and kicks your dog, and tells lies about you at work. And then one day he shoves the guy ahead of him in line, and as the guy picks himself up, you see that it's Oscar de la Hoya, who proceeds to beat the annoying guy senseless. Putting Casey Luskin up against  Mark Chu-Carrol, or Davetard vs Jason Rosenhouse, is the intellectual version of annoying guy vs Oscar de la Hoya.


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,17:51   

Who's Oscar de la Hoya?


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,18:04   

One of the all-time great middleweight boxers

The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank

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Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,18:19   

As I'm sure everyone here knows, my opposition to creationism/ID is political in nature.  One of my best friends is from Iran -- his father was a military chief of staff under the Shah -- and he has seen firsthand what happens when religious nuts are allowed to gain political power.  I have no intention whatsoever of allowing that to happen here.

Editor, Red and Black Publishers


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,18:30   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ April 16 2007,16:19)
As I'm sure everyone here knows, my opposition to creationism/ID is political in nature.  One of my best friends is from Iran -- his father was a military chief of staff under the Shah -- and he has seen firsthand what happens when religious nuts are allowed to gain political power.  I have no intention whatsoever of allowing that to happen here.

You can read all about it in Lenny's new [a href="" target="_blank"]book[/a]!

I came upon the issue in the summer of 05, when I was looking for experiments on the effectiveness of acupuncture. Teh Google led me to the skeptic's dictionary, which had all sorts of fun topics, including something or other written by Jason Rosenhouse. I began reading evolutionblog, panda's thumb, and pharyngula pretty regularly, and landed in this forum when making fun of UD became formalized.

"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,20:56   

Well, I outed myself fairly recently here, so there is no need to give the biographical stuff again.

As for why I am here, it's because I learn a lot, and I need to know a lot as a professor of biology at a university in Kansas. I get lots of students with lots of backgrounds, and some of them are just plain confused by the stuff that they have "learned" in school (and Sunday school). The folks on this forum, especially Zach, phonon, Reciprocating Bill, Kristine, Arden, k.e., Richard, and all of the other usual suspects, have some good insights into the workings of the creationist mind, and I have benefitted greatly from listening in here!

Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,20:58   

I'm just a "concerned parent."

I wasn't really aware of the whole ID thing until I heard about and started following the Dover trial.  Then I started reading the NCSE website, PT, etc. and landed here for the entertainment.

When they start going to school, I want my kids to learn science and about science: as much as they can get.  It's just so valuable in so many ways.

Having said that, I don't want it tainted with the vacuous, intellectually dishonest pseudoscience crap promoted by the likes of the DI, the rest of the liars for Jebus and others of that ilk.

Not that I'm bitter, you understand.   ;)

Hence, I keep an eye on where things are going.


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,21:01   

Jeannot - Bon jour mes ami!  I hope I do not make the faux pas, and pardon moi, but I studied Espanol, not Francois in school, and I do not even write English all that well, so congratulations to you for even attempting, let alone writing your post.  Tres Bien, as I like to say.

Long, long ago, in a Galaxy far, far away, when I was your age, I studied Anthroplogy, and dug up Native American bundle burials, protested the war, drank beer and vino, and tried to get laid as often as possible....

Hmmm... come to think of it, not that much has changed,
but at least my vino does not have twist-off caps these days.

So, after 20+ years away from Anthro, stuck in the exciting world of business, I started googling Anthro articles on the internet a couple of years ago, just to stay in touch, and began to read about ID, and creationism.  

I was amazed, surprised and, in fact the trompe l'oeil of the creationists and IDists.  I reached the Science Blogs, Panda's, and of course after lurking here for a while, was hooked.  I came for the learning, stayed for the fun!
BTW - This should be our motto!

So bon jour, and bon chance to you.  Just remember that not everyone in America is as dumb as George Bush, or as dishonest as Hovind, Ham, and all your favorite IDists and creationists.  

Oh yes.  Merci for the wine and the cheese, and the Statue of Liberty!

Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,21:33   

Quote (guthrie @ April 16 2007,18:51)
Who's Oscar de la Hoya?

guthrie, they've got this thing called Google...


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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,22:30   

growing up in a southern town, going to a S. Baptist church and private school, I had my share of creationist teachings.  Luckily my father, while very religious, majored in anthropology and biology and was public school biology teacher.  I grew up with evolution being as much a part of reality as the theory of gravity and I always thought of the creationism stuff as the extremist views that come with any religion. (even in a S. Baptist church you have your moderates who snicker at the home schoolers)  Even at the young age of 10, I was sometimes annoyed at how bad the creationist arguments were.  At that time, most of them were young earthers, so it was REALLY bad.  

When I got to college and had access to the internet, I ran into someone on a science site that was using all the same YEC arguments I heard as a kid.  We debated over email for years until we realized we were going in circles and we eventually stopped communicating, but I still posted on and a few other evo/creation debate forums.  (i think one was  A link on led me to the Pandasthumb and they kept referencing Uncommondescent and there seemed to be this feud between the two sites.    I goto PT for some great news tidbits and to get the latest news on the failings of the ID movement.  I goto UD for curiosity, amusement and at one time I had this naive hope that they want to pursue ID in a scientific manner. Since the Dover defeat, they've revealed themselves for what they truly are and that hope is no more.

"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

Arden Chatfield

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(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2007,22:46   

Quote (argystokes @ April 16 2007,18:30)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ April 16 2007,16:19)
As I'm sure everyone here knows, my opposition to creationism/ID is political in nature.  One of my best friends is from Iran -- his father was a military chief of staff under the Shah -- and he has seen firsthand what happens when religious nuts are allowed to gain political power.  I have no intention whatsoever of allowing that to happen here.

You can read all about it in Lenny's new <a href="" target="_blank">book</a>!

You need to fix that link!

PS: I'm just here for the free coffee and 'cause my doctor says I need to stay out of the sun.

"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,00:12   

I was brought here by my home's proximity to the state of Kansas.  It was back in the days before the goofy "Evolution Hearings" by the Kansas Board of Education.  Both of parents are educators and I do a little bit of teaching (theatre) so I'm interested in such things.

While I live in Kansas City, MO, I am very close to Kansas and some of my classes were in Kansas.  So, when I heard about the hearings I decided I would attend.  Attending, I briefly chatted with some of the KCFS folk and found the Panda's Thumb.

From there, I got here and must echo stevestory's enjoyment of creationists getting worked over.  Not being a working (or lazy, for that matter) scientist, I also learn some stuff here--that's always good.

But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

creeky belly

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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,02:11   

In high school, I went to youth group in Tacoma, WA, and most of the time I didn't have a problem.  Then they started showing the Hovind tapes, and at one point I just starting laughing. I couldn't help it, he started talking about the probabilities of prophecies.  Needless to say, this was not the "appropriate" response, and the rest of the discussion focused on me politely explaining most of the science/mathematical flaws.

Later, I was over at a get together and some of the parents happened to be there. They began to asked me all sorts of questions: "Why can't you teach creation in schools?" "What about the law of disorder that says evolution can't happen?" "Did you know Darwin recanted on his deathbed?"...etc. I explained what the scientific method was, why it was useful, and why it wasn't useful for creationism.  I got a couple head nods, but I knew they already made up their minds.

In 2002, I attended a talk at the University of Washington by someone from the DI (I want to say Stephen Meyer, I don't think it was an old person). I had no idea that I'd be paying so much attention to it a few years later, but I when one of my friends told me, "The devil is trying to lead you away from God" when I was discussing radiometric dating and wanted to send me some of Hovind's tapes, that's when I decided to see who else had to deal with this.

Most of my time here initially was spent arguing with Paley about geocentrism (remember that juicy thread?). Occasionally, I'll post when there's physics involved, but I enjoy lurking most of the time.

There's no way I would have taken as much interest in biology if it hadn't been at the center of most of it (I'm a physics man by trade), but it feels like a brain enema every time you guys take down an absurd claim.


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,06:53   

Luckily I live in a fairly secular area in Australia. I first got interested in the Talk.Origins site around 10 years ago. The main things there were talking about the aquatic ape and the "man as old as coal guy". There was also a discussion about ID and IC. I can't remember if Behe was the actual participant but the threads had reduced to mutual abuse so I could not pick up the gist of the arguments for and against. At the time I thought it was a shame because even through I was and am an atheist, I thought it would be powerful evidence for a god or an alien designer if IC could be proven.

A lost interest for years and got interested again when some guy on a left wing political blog in Australia started to carry on about ID and how it should be taught in schools. I googled some links and found PT. This was around the lead up to the Dover trial which was very entertaining (I still believe nobody on the ID side actually read the transcripts) and basically stayed for the  fun.



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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,07:24   

Long, long ago, and far, far away (several decades and 4,500 miles, in London) I got a couple of degrees in biochemistry and became a scientist.  Then fate intruded and I ended up in America, where I was startled to find that people were very religious and Creationism was rampant.  As both of them tended to be associated with political parties slightly to the right of Attila the Hun, and as I had a daughter in school, I became interested and eventually wound up here.  It is fun and educational.

I rarely have enough expertise to post anything cogent on topic, but I like posting things that amuse or interest me.  And now Anne, Mollie and Kurt are all gone, we need a few intelligent voices around.

If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,07:52   

Ahh, that makes sense then.
I have been a champion googler since ohhh, 1999, but there are times when I can't be bothered to do it.

I have no idea how I found the Pandas thumb 2.5 years ago, but then i found this place from it, and hung around.  It's kind of fun, but the repetitive stupidity of Creationists and ID'ers gets boring after a while.


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,10:41   

I followed a press release to the intelligent design network website.

I saw this graphic that has both 'religion' and 'naturalism' crossed out under a big scale. I remember reading the page and thought, "what a crock of disingenuous shit". The positive evidence paragraph, especially.

From there it was the Pandas Thumb, Pharyngula, Dispatches and then finally here, where I became the poster-child. I lure fundies here because I am teh_sexy_hawt_one.

"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
" was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,12:36   

And not just fundies, you big, tard-cap wearin' lug.

Myself, I grew up in Kansas. That's reason enough right there. When the Kangaroo Kourt was happening in my native state (I'm in Cali now) I caught onto the forums at KCFS and kept abreast of events that way. I also met some good folks, and found out shooting down creationist nonsense is fun!

Jack Krebs of KCFS is also a PTer, so eventually I started hanging out at the Thumb (I even wrote an article). From there, it was just a matter of time before I came over to the Church Burnin' Ebola Boys for the lighter side of "The Controversy." (My entre to this board was the dubious move of luring Paley's Ghost to defend his "guts to gametes" nonsense.) Needless to say, the rest is history.

The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,12:59   


"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
" was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,13:18   

I subscribe(d) to Skeptical Inquirer and they had a few articles on the subject which indirectly lead me here.  I got booted by the small penised DT for "playing all nice" at UD which I thought was cool.  

I keep coming here for the free beer and fun!

Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Stephen Elliott

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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,13:31   

I got here by reading the book The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel.

That got me interested. I actually did try to "follow the evidence no matter where it leads" and came to the conclusion that ID is purposefully dishonest and full of crap.

It did take me a few months to realise this though and I came to PT as an ID suporter at first. Didn't take too long to see which side was being honest and who was spreading manure.

Sometimes it feels like banging your head against a brick wall when talking to consistent ID people. It is bleeding obvious who has the evidence, yet they refuse to look, ban anyone who makes rational arguments, then claim people are "scared" to debate them. The eejits are possibly insane.

EDIT: Something that I really like. Most pro-science blogs allow free commentry (including the other side) while #### near every ID blog censors. Unfortunately a lot of pro-ID types are too stupid to realise what this implies.

Downside is that when we have no/few creationists on here then personal/religious wars break out. Bit of a shame considering how many well educated/inteligent people post here and at PT.

Reciprocating Bill

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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,13:38   

This topic has fascinated me for decades. Science of the last several hundred years, and particularly the last 150, has enabled human beings to progressively situate themselves within the dual abyss of deep space and deep time, and evolutionary biology has enabled us to grasp the degree to which each one of us, and every extant organism, is packed with connected, contingent history. Yet many turn their backs on that landscape, and instead place upon their heads a shoebox, the interior surfaces of which are papered with biblical stories or other obviously, patently human fictions and inventions (new age mythologies, etc.). I have two 'born again,' OEC sibs who live within that small-box world and bring that reality home quite personally.  All well and good until the recent assault upon science education in my state (Ohio), which aroused me from my slumber on the issue. Doverloo terminated the assault on science education, but my fascination over the psychological dimension of these choices continues.

Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,18:23   

I found talkorigins, then PT while reading up on the then looming Dover trial. I teach in a private Episcopal boarding school, in a tiny blue dot in a very red state (TN). I wanted to be ready in case the school received pressure from parents to teach ID/Creationism, so I set out to learn as much as I could. However, we haven't heard a peep out of our parents (maybe I was not giving them enough credit!;) but I stayed on because it was fun and helps me avoid real work. My husband is a primatologist, so I love running stuff past him.
I am especially interested in the involvement of the Templeton Foundation, as Templeton is a county native and I taught various members of his family. Of course, that's how I got banned at UD. Haven't managed to get back on yet. :p


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,18:42   

My evolution/creation interest built slowly. Every once and a while I'd be totally blown away by a friend or family member, who I thought I knew well, when they'd say something like, "I think that whole evolution thing is bunk, I mean how did all this life come from nothing on its own?" I would be all like "wow" and stuff. Then one day out of the blue, evolution came up in a convo between me and a certain family member. He took the creationism side. Again, I didn't think he really believed this stuff and just thought he wanted a lively debate, like we had in the past. As we continued the debate through email over the course of a few weeks, I began to realize he was serious. Well, in the middle of this email debate, I had to do a lot of googling and eventually I wound up on some message boards that were debating these things. I started debating people in the message boards thinking, "where the #### are all these nuts coming from?" I really didn't realize the pervasiveness of creationism in this country. My eyes were opened. Anyway, in the process I've learned quite a bit of biology, although it comes in the Cliff Claven trivia category of knowledge.

With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,19:21   

So a Kansas Konnection is a big draw.  For me too.

I have a PhD in bio and my husband is from Kansas.  When I heard about the BOE plans in 1999 I was amazed, and when I started reading about it, even more amazed that this issue is still alive for so many.  I have never met a creationist in person, but have always been interested in the intersection of science and religion so I followed the story to Talkorigins where I read all the articles, the Lilith debates, and then here where I encountered AFDave, and now to the Dawkins site where Dave is still holding forth and shows no signs of tapering off...


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(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2007,20:27   

Quote (Fross @ April 16 2007,21:30)
growing up in a southern town, going to a S. Baptist church and private school, I had my share of creationist teachings.  Luckily my father, while very religious, majored in anthropology and biology and was public school biology teacher.  I grew up with evolution being as much a part of reality as the theory of gravity and I always thought of the creationism stuff as the extremist views that come with any religion.
You don't know how jealous I am of you Fross!

I grew up in a northern small town (North St. Paul, Minnesota), went to a Lutheran church and public school, and had my share of creationist teachings, which I rejected at age nine. I went through my "ancient astronauts" phase (no laughing!;) :) until I rejected all truth claims and learned about the scientific method. I grew up feeling pretty alone in my interest in science and evolution, reading Gould and Sagan and debating my father, who was a biblical literalist (this was during the time of the Little Rock trial).

I drifted away from science in college, scared off by the math, I think, and got my degree in English Lit., whereupon I became a bohemian, working crap low-paying jobs, reading books, going to films, and trying to write. I took some computer programming languages (which I have not applied) and started belly dancing, then decided to get a life and make some money, landed some nice office positions that culminated in my museum job, and got my act together and entered grad school for Library and Info Science. I guess I never really shook the science bug and have some regrets about not going in that direction, but I was too dang restless anyway.

Je parle Francais aussi! (Did I spell that correctly?)

Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Roland Anderson

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(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2007,05:07   

I read my friend's copy of "The Selfish Gene" back in 1993 or thenabouts and since then I've devoured everything I can find about evolutionary theory. I had heard of creationism I think at that time but I didn't take a serious interest in it until I took a trawl through the Skeptic's Dictionary (now I feel dirty - it should be Sceptic's - ugh!) and found the entry on Creationism. From there I found my way to the TalkOrigins archive and amused myself by reading the kooky feedback. From there it was but a short journey to itself, and then to the Panda's Thumb, AFDave and

The way that the creationists completely deny reality is a subject of some fascination to me. I think I would like to see if I could spend some time in a hospitable Bible belt town (perhaps on some sort of secondment or working holiday) and find out a bit more about what makes them tick. We really don't have people like this in the UK, and I haven't been anywhere in the US except DC, LA and San Francisco, which are not exactly hotbeds of fundamentalism (well, maybe excepting 1600 Pennsylvania Ave). My impression is that they are mostly perfectly nice people who just have a curious religious blind spot.

I've recovered from the time when I'd go all political firebrand on anyone who disagreed with me, so perhaps it would be possible to spend time in such a place and not explode.

Curiously, what I see of the way creationists defend their beliefs reminds me of how I used to defend my political beliefs in younger days. I was convinced I was right and I wouldn't even look at any evidence which seemed to contradict them. I would only notice evidence which seemed to support them. I think it was because I felt comfortable with their simplicity, and also because it was a way of feeling at home with my family, who shared similar beliefs. It was a difficult thing to give up and to see politics for the complicated, messy thing it is - but it can be done.

I think that most of us have believed like that in something - whether it's religion, a childcare method, a political doctrine, a sports team or crank medicine. I guess some of these beliefs do more harm than others.

Roland Anderson

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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2007,05:11   

One other thing: as a layman, I sometimes hear creationist/ID arguments which I don't know how to refute. Keeping tabs here, on PT,, richarddawkins and other places helps me to keep abreast with things so that should I ever run into a creo-kook I'll know what to say.


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Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2007,06:47   

Well I first became aware of the ID/Creationism movement because of my studying politics. By reading the works of american political commentators, and browsing the web to research, I discovered that there was a strange movement who seemed to out and out reject science.

However I only really started getting interested when, in my love of all things totally insane, I discovered, and began my browsing of the Talk.Origins website (although my internet supplied by the university wouldn't let me join the actual newsgroup, for some reason), and from there to Panda's Thumb, then on to here.

I've been browsing here for a few months now, without joining up, and decided that a lot of lurking might enable me to learn a few things, as well as discover the do's and don'ts of AtBC. I am, sadly only an interested layman, but one who is curious to learn more about ID before it sinks into the mire completely.

I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

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