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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > GoP's Christianity, Islam, Race, & The West Thread

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The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,04:31    Dave requested that this topic get its own thread, so here it is. Dave will show why the West is fundamentally Christian, and should remain so. Take it away, Dave! -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Jim_Wynne Posts: 1208 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,05:01    Quote Take it away, Dave! Yes, Dave, please do take it away. It's starting to stink. -------------- Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,05:45    Quote Yes, Dave, please do take it away. It's starting to stink. Got any evidence, or are you just another drive-by troll? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,05:59    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 23 2006,10:45) Quote Yes, Dave, please do take it away. It's starting to stink. Got any evidence, or are you just another drive-by troll? Surely Dave is supposed to provide the evidence? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,06:06    Richard "Matt" Hughes:   Quote Surely Dave is supposed to provide the evidence? Sure. But why not help him out by describing what the "evidence" should consist of? Outline what you'd like to see, what the relevant definitions are, etc. This seemed to help the Muslim debate enormously. In fact, it helped it so much that the evos fled the thread. I'm just sayin.... -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Jim_Wynne Posts: 1208 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,06:12    Gee, GOP accusing someone else of trollery. You said that Dave will show us "why the West is fundamentally Christian, and should remain so." And you want us to describe the necessary evidence?  Look--we all know exactly what's coming.  There will be no original thinking, a lot of David Barton/D. James Kennedy revisionism and bloviation, and no matter what anyone else says to the contrary, Dave will never admit that he's wrong.  That's why I said it's starting to stink. -------------- Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,06:41    Or, more to the point, why the West no longer needs science, as understood and practised by actual scientists, but instead needs to have science redefined by right-wing wing-nuts. -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,07:37    Guys, we need to nail down what 'keeping America a Christian country' would mean in actual practice. For starters, there are millions of non-Christians in this country. Far more than Dave probably realizes out there in Indiana. What should 'be done' about them them? Governmental pressure? Coerced conversions? Punishment? Expulsion? Or do GoP and AFD envision a sort of dhimmitude, where non-Christians would be tolerated, but forbidden from holding public office, teaching, voting, or having access to the media? You know, they wouldn't be punished or anything, per sé, but they'd endure a sort of low-level harassment, including paying higher taxes than everyone, until they converted? Also, would certain non-Christian religions be considered more worthy of governmental pressure than others? Would Jews be higher on the food chain than atheists, Muslims, and Hindus? Also, would groups like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists be counted as full Christians, or just partial Christians? Also, would this require outlawing the teaching of evolution in public schools and colleges? If so, what punishments do you envision for people and institutions who refuse to quit teaching it? Fines, loss of jobs, jail time? Would it be a misdemeanor or something more serious? Would secular universities be banned outright? And what about parts of the country that resisted this? Would a central authority be enlisted to enforce this, or do you envision a sort of 'States Rights' system whereby certain parts of the country could opt out of the theocracy? Lots of details to work out, guys. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Robert O'Brien Posts: 348 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,07:44    Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Sep. 23 2006,10:01) Yes, Dave, please do take it away. It's starting to stink. If only Wynne could stand downwind from his own posts. -------------- Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,08:02    Quote Richard "Matt" Hughes The "T" is a clue. The only unconfirmable need for Christianity would be spiritual salvation, *if* it were true. I thinkt that the baggage that comes with it, fundamentalism, anti-intellectalism, etc. make it undesireable. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

mcc Posts: 110 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,16:49    Obviously America needs Christianity. If we didn't have Christianity, then what would we do with all the churches?

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,16:52    Quote (mcc @ Sep. 23 2006,22:49) Obviously America needs Christianity. If we didn't have Christianity, then what would we do with all the churches? Very pretty Kwik-e-marts?

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,17:01    Quote then what would we do with all the churches? bonfire of the vanities.  (a rather large bonfire) so sayeth chapter 5, verse 2, in the Church Burning Ebola Boy scout guide. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,17:03    Quote (mcc @ Sep. 23 2006,22:49) Obviously America needs Christianity. If we didn't have Christianity, then what would we do with all the churches? Growing up in a small town in North Florida--not terribly far from where Robert O'Brien is attempting grad school, if memory serves--a friend and I were puzzled at why there should be so many churches, and so few bookstores. When the B.Dalton in the mall went out of business, we conducted a census of the two businesses. The results: Churches: ~160 Bookstores: 0

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,21:53    Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 23 2006,22:03)   Quote (mcc @ Sep. 23 2006,22:49) Obviously America needs Christianity. If we didn't have Christianity, then what would we do with all the churches? Growing up in a small town in North Florida--not terribly far from where Robert O'Brien is attempting grad school, if memory serves--a friend and I were puzzled at why there should be so many churches, and so few bookstores. When the B.Dalton in the mall went out of business, we conducted a census of the two businesses. The results: Churches: ~160 Bookstores: 0 Is this a USA specific thing? In the UK, Christianity and a book shop inverse relationship has not been noticed by myself.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,22:41    no, if anything it's locale specific. in any metropolitan area in california, the exact reverse is the case. it's all starbucks and Barnes and Noble as far as the eye can see... -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,01:19    Quote (Ichthyic @ Sep. 24 2006,03:41) no, if anything it's locale specific. in any metropolitan area in california, the exact reverse is the case. it's all starbucks and Barnes and Noble as far as the eye can see... Which City. I have been to L.A. and San Diego. Love San Diego, especially the Gasslamp/Gasslight? area.

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,04:07    Quote If we didn't have Christianity, then what would we do with all the churches? In the UK we convert them into indoor climbing walls, housing and bars.

pzmyers Posts: 35 Joined: Sep. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,04:45    Ah, reminds me of my little town of Morris, Minnesota. 5000 people. 0 bookstores. 2 bars. 14 "restaurants" (using the term very loosely, to include McDonald's and Taco John's and such cheap grease factories. We really only have one place we can take visitors to without making apologies). 18 churches. What a waste. Edited by pzmyers on Sep. 24 2006,09:46

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,06:18    Quote (pzmyers @ Sep. 24 2006,09:45) 18 churches. What a waste. In the UK, churches are a good source for local history. I live right next to one. It is the oldest building in Windsor. I do not consider it a "waste". Here.

Robert O'Brien Posts: 348 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,07:36    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 24 2006,06:19) Love San Diego, especially the Gasslamp/Gasslight? area. Yeah, San Diego is great. I also recommend Santa Barbara and San Mateo County (where I'm from). -------------- Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

Robert O'Brien Posts: 348 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,07:41    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 24 2006,11:18) In the UK, churches are a good source for local history. I live right next to one. It is the oldest building in Windsor. I do not consider it a "waste". Here. Good for you; instead of spending an inordinate amount of time kvetching online about Christianity (in lieu of, say, doing research) it appears that you have developed a healthy attitude toward it. -------------- Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,08:29    Quote (Robert O'Brien @ Sep. 24 2006,12:41) Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 24 2006,11:18) In the UK, churches are a good source for local history. I live right next to one. It is the oldest building in Windsor. I do not consider it a "waste". Here. Good for you; instead of spending an inordinate amount of time kvetching online about Christianity (in lieu of, say, doing research) it appears that you have developed a healthy attitude toward it. I am not sure we are on the same wavelength here. In the UK, churches are a great source of local history. They have records of births, deaths and marriages etc. going back hundreds of years (or more).That is what I was refering to. The record of Christianity is sketchy and churches are not the best source for that history. Saying that, I am not anti-religion either. I just don't know on that issue.

don_quixote Posts: 110 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,09:42    Here in Aberdeen (Scotland), several of the city-centre churches have been turned into bars and restaurants. Great buildings, but it's a bit weird to have Jebus looking down at you (from the stained-glass windows) when you're knocking back pints and chatting people up. In one, the urinal is actually the font! (okay, I made that last bit up)

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,11:21    So far, 24 messages, and not a speck of evidence that Christianity has in any way, shape, or form been of any benefit whatsoever to the West. (I'm not claiming it wasn't; I'm merely pointing out the utter lack of evidence so far. In my opinion, weighing the pros and cons, I'd say it's a wash as to whether Christianity has helped or hindered the West.) But Bill, I'd guess the chances that AF Dave will actually post anything here are pretty minimal. After all, we gave him an entire extra thread for the sole purpose of posting actual, you know, evidence for his "Creator God Hypothesis" (which evidence is sorely lacking on his own thread), and he never posted a single message there. I wonder why. -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

MidnightVoice Posts: 380 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,11:40    Quote (ericmurphy @ Sep. 24 2006,16:21) So far, 24 messages, and not a speck of evidence that Christianity has in any way, shape, or form been of any benefit whatsoever to the West. Well, if you read "How the Irish Saved Civilization", and believe it, there is a start.   -------------- If I fly the coop some time And take nothing but a grip With the few good books that really count It's a necessary trip I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,11:48    Quote (ericmurphy @ Sep. 24 2006,16:21) So far, 24 messages, and not a speck of evidence that Christianity has in any way, shape, or form been of any benefit whatsoever to the West. Except that wasn't the original premise; the original idea was, in fact: Quote Dave requested that this topic get its own thread, so here it is. Dave will show why the West is fundamentally Christian, and should remain so. [my boldfacing] Quite a different thing. Quote (I'm not claiming it wasn't; I'm merely pointing out the utter lack of evidence so far. In my opinion, weighing the pros and cons, I'd say it's a wash as to whether Christianity has helped or hindered the West.) But Bill, I'd guess the chances that AF Dave will actually post anything here are pretty minimal. After all, we gave him an entire extra thread for the sole purpose of posting actual, you know, evidence for his "Creator God Hypothesis" (which evidence is sorely lacking on his own thread), and he never posted a single message there. I wonder why. I would assume any such messages would have to come from AFD or GoP. AFD never posts in new tangential threads designated for him, and GoP probably hasn't seen this thread yet. This thread might fizzle out in the next couple days at this rate. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

breakerslion Posts: 4 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,12:11    Quote This thread might fizzle out in the next couple days at this rate. Oh my! Quick! Everyone who believes in Faries, Leprechauns, Angels, or Supreme Beings (not including Diana Ross and Co.) clap your hands! Thanks to the arbitrary nature of cause and effect in the Cartoon Universe, you will save this thread! (I'm new. Too sarcastic?)

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,12:39    Surely the question shoudl be: Which particular flavour of Christianity? After all, Catholicism today is somewhat different from what it was 600 years ago.  Then a lot of protestants helped advance the same science that their related descendants in the USA seem determined to malign.  Then theres the Gnostics, not to mention everything from Cathars to Wycliffites to Hussites.   Think about it- in Medieval Europe, your average pleb didnt even get the wine and wafer at mass, and the area beyond the rood screen was out of bounds to them.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2006,13:32    Quote (guthrie @ Sep. 24 2006,17:39) Surely the question should be: Which particular flavour of Christianity? After all, Catholicism today is somewhat different from what it was 600 years ago.  Then a lot of protestants helped advance the same science that their related descendants in the USA seem determined to malign.  Then theres the Gnostics, not to mention everything from Cathars to Wycliffites to Hussites.   Think about it- in Medieval Europe, your average pleb didnt even get the wine and wafer at mass, and the area beyond the rood screen was out of bounds to them. I'm sure AFD and GoP have their own flavor of literalist Protestantism in mind. I think AFD once went so far as to express doubts that Catholics are really Christians. But this does raise a good point! In this futurist Protestant utopia that AFD and GoP have in mind, where would other Christian sects fit in? In the process of 'assuring that America remains a Christian nation', what would be official policy toward other denominations, such as Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc., or even some of the more outré Protestant groups, such as Pentacostals? Would they, as people who at least think of themselves as Christians be accorded full privileges, the right of males to vote, etc.? Or would full civil rights be contingent on conversion to Christian denominations AFD and GoP are less uncomfortable with? I guess what I'm asking is, where on the food chain where the different Christian groups fit in? Would they necessarily ALL be higher up than outright non-Christians? Would some be lower than others? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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