Joined: Jan. 2006
|Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 07 2009,20:43)|
|Quote (Louis @ Feb. 07 2009,03:02)|
Until you get these caricatures of what evolutionary biology is out of your head you will never learn a single thing.
The opposite of "god governed" development is NOT "sheer luck and coincidence". Evolutionary biology is NOT "sheer luck and coincidence". And also, whatever my personal philosophical reservations about this position, there are a huge number of people that accept evolutionary biology as the best explanation of the diversity and development of life on this planet AND who believe in god. The two, again despite my philosophical misgivings, appear not to be mutually exclusive for some people.
No one is asking you to give up your faith. All anyone is asking is for you to give up your intellectually dishonest misunderstandings of current science.
Edited for if/of typo
Thanks for the clarification Louis.
I know that the two are not mutually exclusive (though some of the comments on this board would seem to indicate that some of my opponents believe otherwise).
I know it's possible that God exists but has taken a "hands off" approach and is merely letting life play itself out.
The evidence, and personal experience, leads me to believe, however, that God is more involved than that.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, I could be wrong.
As for unguided evolution not being "sheer luck and coincidence", I know that it is often said that selection takes the "luck" out of the equation. As I understand it however, (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), all potential solutions (pre-selection) are generated randomly and then the best solutions are sometimes selected. So, in real life, without the random generation of a potential solution (pure luck and coincidence), and fortuitous selection (which also may involve some luck as well) evolution does not work. That's a lot of luck Louis! I agree though that it's not only luck that's involved. Perhaps I should have said "mostly luck and coincidence".
And correct you I will:
Random mutation (for example) =/= luck and coincidence. "Potential solutions" (a poor term horribly loaded with foresight etc, and definitely part of your problem) are not simply explored perfectly randomly, there are distributions of "potential solutions" from given precursors. Even those precursors, and their precursors etc, are still subject to standard chemistry and physics. So no Daniel, it absolutely ISN'T pure luck and coincidence, it's very unlike it. Learn what random is. The word you are looking for is not "luck and coincidence" but "random", in the strict mathematical sense of the word, and with a weather eye out for real wet and dirty biological systems interacting with their environment.
Selection also doesn't necessarily give the "best solution", it gives the most fit, i.e. immediately least bad. That is not always the optimum solution (implied by "best"). You also ignore drift and other phenomena in your handwave. It's a very qualified "solution" which cannot arbitrarily be separated from its context.
So AGAIN Daniel, your understanding is not accurate, and as has been pointed out about 8273481729598 times now you are inventing a spurious caricature of evolutionary biology. As has been pointed out 34567839876542928 times now you are wasting your time leaping into the primary literature when you should be reading up on the basics you demonstrably don't understand.
As you persist in pissing about with straw men and caricatures it's no wonder you deem it impossible for order and complexity to arise naturally, and it's no wonder you go over and over the same ground time and again refusing to correct your misunderstandings. It's not that you merely could be wrong, you are wrong and are trying very very hard to refuse to understand why. Hence, like I've been saying since the very start GO BACK TO BASICS! Learn to walk before you try to run. Basic philosophy, basic biology, hell even some basic maths, will clear this up for you. This is not something you can reliably get on any message board in the universe, you need to do the graft yourself.
I'm not even touching your "evidence" proves god crap, especially when you've admitted it doesn't already.