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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 3, The Beast Marches On...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,12:58   

Quote (didymos @ July 29 2010,12:43)

Quote
Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 29 2010,10:22)
Quote (didymos @ July 29 2010,12:12)
Conclusion: StephenB is full of FAIL (and shit).

At least he had the presence of mind to mention that it is actually Luskin's FAIL, the weasel.

Oooh, some more pre-emptive weaseling on his part that I hadn't noticed 'til now (bolding mine):
Quote

However, my question still stands: Are Darwinists who use [and used]Haeckels drawings lying or were they [are they] telling the truth. Please answer the question. Or, are those who use remakes of Haeckels drawing promoting a double liei.e. the lie itself and the shameless plagiarism, lying or are they telling the truth.

You have not yet answered the question on the table. Please address it.


The actual original question on the table:

"Are those Darwinists who knowingly publish pictures of Haeckels bogus drawings in public school textbooks lying are they telling the truth?"

Honestly, I'm worried about his back, what with carting those goalposts around everywhere he goes.


Earth to StephenB...how are any "Darwinists" supposed to answer your loaded rhetorical questions when all those folks who are openly "Darwinists" are banned from UD?

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,14:06   

Quote (Robin @ July 29 2010,13:58)
[quote=didymos,July 29 2010,12:43][/quote]
Quote
Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 29 2010,10:22)
 
Quote (didymos @ July 29 2010,12:12)
Conclusion: StephenB is full of FAIL (and shit).

At least he had the presence of mind to mention that it is actually Luskin's FAIL, the weasel.

Oooh, some more pre-emptive weaseling on his part that I hadn't noticed 'til now (bolding mine):
 
Quote

However, my question still stands: Are Darwinists who use [and used]Haeckels drawings lying or were they [are they] telling the truth. Please answer the question. Or, are those who use remakes of Haeckels drawing promoting a double liei.e. the lie itself and the shameless plagiarism, lying or are they telling the truth.

You have not yet answered the question on the table. Please address it.


The actual original question on the table:

"Are those Darwinists who knowingly publish pictures of Haeckels bogus drawings in public school textbooks lying are they telling the truth?"

Honestly, I'm worried about his back, what with carting those goalposts around everywhere he goes.


Earth to StephenB...how are any "Darwinists" supposed to answer your loaded rhetorical questions when all those folks who are openly "Darwinists" are banned from UD?

The wily Petrushka might also want to point out that the accompanying text to those illustrations frequently disavows Haeckel's interpretations to teach something about the history and development of evolutionary theory.

--------------
Im referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Im not an evolutionist, Im a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,14:27   

StephenB is such a swell guy:

Quote
Meanwhile, my quesion[sic] for you persists. Are Darwinists who knowingly use [used] Haeckels drawings lying or are they [were they] telling the truth.

If you are not up to answering this question, I can do it for you.


--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,14:41   

Quote
The wily Petrushka might also want to point out that the accompanying text to those illustrations frequently disavows Haeckel's interpretations to teach something about the history and development of evolutionary theory.


Looking at the DI link,

http://www.discovery.org/a/3935

I get the sense that Haeckel is not the problem. The problem can be summarized as No Kin to Monkies.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,14:49   

StephenB gets specific:
 
Quote
Clearly, the authors intent was to use fraudulant pictures in order to mislead readers into believing that the same similarities that occur later in the process are also present earlier in the process. They obviously felt that providing a more accurate account would have weakened their case. Thus, they are were lying.

This is so comical. On the one hand, our adversaries argue that Darwinists no longer commit this dishonest act and havent done so for almost 50 years. Then, when called on it, they suddenly claim that it is not really dishonest. Youve gotta love it.


...

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugers work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,15:06   

Quote (Robin @ July 29 2010,15:27)
StephenB is such a swell guy:

Quote
Meanwhile, my quesion[sic] for you persists. Are Darwinists who knowingly use [used] Haeckels drawings lying or are they [were they] telling the truth.

If you are not up to answering this question, I can do it for you.

One of StephenB's most persistent tics. If you decline to walk the Socratic garden path he has laid before you, he provides answers himself, obviously out of frustration over having been thwarted.

Weird.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,17:50   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ July 30 2010,06:06)
Quote (Robin @ July 29 2010,15:27)
StephenB is such a swell guy:

 
Quote
Meanwhile, my quesion[sic] for you persists. Are Darwinists who knowingly use [used] Haeckels drawings lying or are they [were they] telling the truth.

If you are not up to answering this question, I can do it for you.

One of StephenB's most persistent tics. If you decline to walk the Socratic garden path he has laid before you, he provides answers himself, obviously out of frustration over having been thwarted.

Weird.

Are the creationists who knowingly say that modern textbooks are using the drawings lying or are they telling the truth?

  
madbat.089



Posts: 22
Joined: July 2010

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,17:54   

Hey didymos - thanks for the excellent job on pulling together evidence against StephenB - I am using it right now over at UD
- we'll see where the goal posts will move next!

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,18:01   

I've got an old astronomy book with 9 planets. Clearly my childhood was ruined.

OMG SCIENCE IHATEU!

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,18:30   

Quote (madbat.089 @ July 29 2010,15:54)
Hey didymos - thanks for the excellent job on pulling together evidence against StephenB - I am using it right now over at UD
- we'll see where the goal posts will move next!

Well, it's actually Casey "Tits" Luskin who gets credit.  He's the one who helpfully included images that totally refute the silly "Haeckel! Haeckel, Haeckel, Haeckel!" article in which they appear.  I just copied them to my image host in case they mysteriously vanish at some point.  That and I believe in giving the DI as few page hits as possible.

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,19:10   

Quote (MichaelJ @ July 29 2010,15:50)
Are the creationists who knowingly say that modern textbooks are using the drawings lying or are they telling the truth?

They are lying, or they are repeating lies.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,19:58   

In which StephenB climbs down and declares victory:
Quote
Quote
molch:. Or are you claiming that earlier embryos are more dissimilar than the embryo stages depicted in the illustration, and that thats why the choice of illustration is misleading.


You are starting to show signs of life. Typically, these writers promote the idea that vertebrate embryos are extremely similar therefore share a common ancestor, using Heackel-like drawings as valid evidence to make their case for common ancestry.

Millers book, for example, reads, However, as you can see in Figure 13-16, [Heackel-like drawings] all of these embryos are similar in appearance during EARLY STAGES [my emphasis] of development. (pg. 283) The caption reads: During certain embryological stages, vastly different organisms show similarities. During later stages of development, profound changes occur. Thus the adults bear little resemblance to one-another.

He exaggerates the similarities in much the same way that Haeckel exaggerated them. He knows that he is not telling the truth, and he is using Heackels drawings as evidence to support his lie. Case closed.

Wanker.

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,20:41   

Quote (Ptaylor @ July 29 2010,17:58)
In which StephenB climbs down and declares victory:
Quote
Quote
molch:. Or are you claiming that earlier embryos are more dissimilar than the embryo stages depicted in the illustration, and that thats why the choice of illustration is misleading.


You are starting to show signs of life. Typically, these writers promote the idea that vertebrate embryos are extremely similar therefore share a common ancestor, using Heackel-like drawings as valid evidence to make their case for common ancestry.

Millers book, for example, reads, However, as you can see in Figure 13-16, [Heackel-like drawings] all of these embryos are similar in appearance during EARLY STAGES [my emphasis] of development. (pg. 283) The caption reads: During certain embryological stages, vastly different organisms show similarities. During later stages of development, profound changes occur. Thus the adults bear little resemblance to one-another.

He exaggerates the similarities in much the same way that Haeckel exaggerated them. He knows that he is not telling the truth, and he is using Heackels drawings as evidence to support his lie. Case closed.

Wanker.

Someone  should ask him which early stages are the most dissimilar and if he knows why they're dissimilar.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,20:49   

More civility.

Quote
Mung: You disgust me. You really do.

To his credit, Mung adds

Quote
Mung: Im all in favor of free speech. Hopefully I wont be banned for mine, and I dont want you banned for yours.

Mung needs to realize that he is being coddled.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 29 2010,22:47   

WTF, StephenB?
Quote
Typically, these writers promote the idea that vertebrate embryos are extremely similar therefore share a common ancestor, using Heackel-like drawings as valid evidence to make their case for common ancestry.

But some time ago:
Quote
To be as clear as possible, I accept common ancestry as a fact and allow for the strong possibility of universal common descent, while holding some reservations.

So, WTF?

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,02:56   

In case nobody noticed, Granville Sewell is promoting his "video" again.

I put "video" in quotes because it's actually a single 15 minute long screen shot of his computer, along with Granville himself reading what's on the screen to you. You can even see his mouse move when he calls up new screens.

And of course, the ID Syncophant Squad eats it right up:  
Quote
Gods iPod: Would you mind putting this video on a page with a proper title and description so we can share this around facebook please.
 
Quote
bFast: I love the simplicity of this argument.
 
Quote
mullerpr: I think Granvilles argument is as elegant as it gets. From his argument it should be clear that you just need to ask for an empirical analysis of what effects can be achieved by high order sunlight entering a pre-biotic earth.


Granville later announces that it's on YouTube, but I'm behind a firewall and can't see it from work to get the full address.  Rumor has it that he and BA77 are engaged.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,03:10   

Quote without comment:
Quote
RkBall: PNAS? Please spell out next time. Ill Google.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,03:31   

Mullerpr on Granville's latest SLoT thread:
Quote
I think Granvilles argument is as elegant as it gets. From his argument it should be clear that you just need to ask for an empirical analysis of what effects can be achieved by high order sunlight entering a pre-biotic earth. Here we can ask, based on empirical observation, does it make it more or less probable for order to increase (i.e. entropy to decrease)?


Yes, what are the effects of UV and visible light being absorbed by molecules, before being re-radiated out into space as IR radiation? Mullerpr we know the asnwer to this question. It is called "life".

--------------
Im referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Im not an evolutionist, Im a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,03:41   

Quote (didymos @ July 29 2010,21:41)
Quote (Ptaylor @ July 29 2010,17:58)
In which StephenB climbs down and declares victory:
 
Quote
 
Quote
molch:. Or are you claiming that earlier embryos are more dissimilar than the embryo stages depicted in the illustration, and that thats why the choice of illustration is misleading.


You are starting to show signs of life. Typically, these writers promote the idea that vertebrate embryos are extremely similar therefore share a common ancestor, using Heackel-like drawings as valid evidence to make their case for common ancestry.

Millers book, for example, reads, However, as you can see in Figure 13-16, [Heackel-like drawings] all of these embryos are similar in appearance during EARLY STAGES [my emphasis] of development. (pg. 283) The caption reads: During certain embryological stages, vastly different organisms show similarities. During later stages of development, profound changes occur. Thus the adults bear little resemblance to one-another.

He exaggerates the similarities in much the same way that Haeckel exaggerated them. He knows that he is not telling the truth, and he is using Heackels drawings as evidence to support his lie. Case closed.

Wanker.

Someone should ask him which early stages are the most dissimilar and if he knows why they're dissimilar.

Just StephenB retreating back into the science free zone as fast as possible. Any foray into the arena of evidence instead of argument ends badly for Clive's boy.

Quote
He knows that he is not telling the truth, and he is using Heackels drawings as evidence to support his lie.


Even in retreat, Stephen(psychotic Pharasee)B can't resist a Parthian (or parting) shot that repeats the earlier overstatement he is supposedly retreating from.

--------------
Im referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Im not an evolutionist, Im a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,04:17   

Quote (CeilingCat @ July 30 2010,02:56)
Rumor has it that he and BA77 are engaged.

Gil Dodgen is jealous:
 
Quote
Granville,
Anyone with an IQ above room temperature should be able to figure this out, unless, of course, his reasoning powers in this arena have been completely inactivated by Darwinian anti-logic.

And to curry favour, in the very next comment he proudly announces his contribution to science:
 
Quote
Ive recently made my chef-duvre artificial-intelligence computer program available for free download at my website:


--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,04:20   

Granville gets stupid. Well, stupider:
Quote
This is an example of how the corruption of Darwinism has reached beyond biology into physics! The whole idea of compensation, that a decrease in entropy in an open system can be compensated by an increase outside the system is completely anti-logical (imagine trying to tell my friends wife that the fact that entropy is increasing outside her house means that she might find things inside the house in better condition than she left them!), and was invented solely to avoid the obvious conclusions with regard to evolution.


Seriously: what the hell Granville? Now physicists are in on the grand Darwinist conspiracy and making shit up for the express purpose of buttressing evolutionary theory? Really? Really? And please, stop with the fucking housekeeping analogy already:



--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,05:30   

Quote (didymos @ July 30 2010,05:20)
Granville gets stupid. Well, stupider:  
Quote
This is an example of how the corruption of Darwinism has reached beyond biology into physics! The whole idea of compensation, that a decrease in entropy in an open system can be compensated by an increase outside the system is completely anti-logical (imagine trying to tell my friends wife that the fact that entropy is increasing outside her house means that she might find things inside the house in better condition than she left them!), and was invented solely to avoid the obvious conclusions with regard to evolution.


Seriously: what the hell Granville? Now physicists are in on the grand Darwinist conspiracy and making shit up for the express purpose of buttressing evolutionary theory? Really? Really? And please, stop with the fucking housekeeping analogy already:


Nakashima asks Granville (on SideWiki) - what about the ice cubes?

--------------
Im referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Im not an evolutionist, Im a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Turncoat



Posts: 129
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,06:03   

Some of you may be interested to know that the pretty plots in the last paper the Baylor cubs, Dembski, and Marks published were cattywampus. Mean guy that I am, I've kept this to myself for a couple months. Link

I emailed the link Ewert and Atom, and copied Marks and Dembski. :p

--------------
I never give them hell. I just tell the truth about them, and they think it's hell. Harry S Truman

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,07:38   

Quote (Turncoat @ July 30 2010,07:03)
Some of you may be interested to know that the pretty plots in the last paper the Baylor cubs, Dembski, and Marks published were cattywampus. Mean guy that I am, I've kept this to myself for a couple months. Link

I emailed the link Ewert and Atom, and copied Marks and Dembski. :p

I left you a comment on your blog. Nice analysis, but not like you had to dig very deep.

--------------
Im referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Im not an evolutionist, Im a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,10:58   

Unpleasant Blowhard experiences a moment of clarity.
Quote
Youve made it clear that you think I am an asshole, but still I must press on.

If only this would progress to self-awareness.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,13:09   

This whole hoo-ha over Haeckel's Embryos just shows the IDers up for what they really are.

They dispute something or other. They kick up a fuss about it. They do all sorts of things. But what they never seem to do is to write it all down, edit it, send it off to some group of people that might be interested in it.

If there is systematic misuse of such images to get an invalid point embedded in peoples minds then they are quite right to point it out. Which they think they have done.

But they never want to take it to the next level.

I've asked Gordon Mullings many times at UD why he simply does not write a paper, once, and send it off to a journal or similar? Why instead of writing tens of thousands of words a month at UD he just does not write it all down in a paper and actually advance his argument in the realm he claims to want to advance it he says "oh they'll just dismiss it out of hand" because it supports ID.

So he goes on, creating new websites that probably get more hits from us then any other audience segment. More words, all pointless.

Hey, Gordon, if you are asked a simple question and "refer" people back to the "always linked" instead as some kind of authoritative source, how come links to actual peer reviewed and high quality work that undermine your argument are dismissed out of hand?

I guess it's because you imagine the editors of Nature would act as you would act were you to be the editor. They don't. You can't accept that. And neither can you prove that they act as you say they do.

Got that quote from Richard Dawkins yet where he explicitly indicates Weasel latches? Ever even wondered why Dembski makes a living from criticizing Weasel when nobody else can give a shit about it except as a cool toy example of the power of evolution? I mean, I've still got that $10,000 ready and waiting were you to provide it.

So somebody get round to asking why don't they just write a collaborative ID supporting paper, or just a paper as to why "Haeckel Embryo" type illustrations are a bad pedagogical tool will they? Then instead of having to answer arguments about it over and over (as with ID and CSI and FSCI and FCSI and dFSCI or whatever the hell it was) they can just say "respond to the paper here: " and cite it!

Boo hoo. No ID papers could be published because mean old darwinists won't give it a chance. Yet no list of rejected papers and the "excuses" for rejection can be found, even when the people making that claim are asked directly. Makes you wonder what the inside of their heads must be like. Or, rather, what the immaterial mind over the magic radio brain-soul link that nobody can prove exists or provide any evidence for either looks like. Inside.

...

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugers work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,14:14   

Quote
Boo hoo. No ID papers could be published because mean old darwinists won't give it a chance. Yet no list of rejected papers and the "excuses" for rejection can be found...


Why not publish in their ID journal, where at least it could be available for more than a few days?

Possibly because when the start thinking about how it will look when formally argued, they realize what crap it is.

*Edited for spelling.*

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,14:20   

How many ID 'journals' have been started & abandoned?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,14:24   

They get tired of putting stuff up to much pomp and hyperbolic fanfare only to have to disappear it into the endless 404 night after the rationals have dissected, corrected, mocked and parodied it.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 30 2010,14:52   

Quote (khan @ July 30 2010,14:20)
How many ID 'journals' have been started & abandoned?

All of them.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
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