Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread

Posted: July 14 2006,07:34

Quote

The old guard won�t change, no matter the evidence. They will die in denial of the obvious. But a new group of young people with open minds will replace them, and future generations will accept design as being so obvious that they will shake their heads in disbelief that it took so long for the pseudoscience of Darwinism to take its place on the ash heap of history.

from GilDodgen

Great quote. Just swap the words "design" and "Darwinism" (sic) and you have the truth of the matter.

UD is proof of devolution (are we not men? we are devo ...). Rather than discussing the latest discoveries and advancements in ID research and development, they're posting stupid video clips and debating whether TV scifi shows and computer simulations invalidate evolutionary theory. It makes MySpace pages look positively erudite.

2ndclass

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Posted: July 14 2006,08:26

Dave, on Erik Tellgren's paper, posted by Mark Perakh:

Quote

There�s a good chance the paper is a spoof and Perakh has been had.

There's a much better chance that Dave's entire internet persona is a spoof, and all of us have been had.

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"I wasn't aware that classical physics had established a position on whether intelligent agents exercising free were constrained by 2LOT into increasing entropy." -DaveScot

Richardthughes

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Posted: July 14 2006,11:54

Have a good weekend all.

Still no research form UD, except for Dave's mushroom growing..

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"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
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guthrie

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Posted: July 14 2006,12:14

But remember, Sal has his hypothesis about re-activating the old genetic information in cells. I suggest we remind him about it every now and then.

Surely they could afford to sponsor a graduate student?

guthrie

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Posted: July 14 2006,12:49

Having just read this post:
about the cornell students

I suggest that Hannah MAxson is the best hope that Dembski et al have for someone to do proper ID research. We should encourage her at every opportunity. She seems to be committed, and intelligent.
So, how about it, you ID'ers who read this? Want to sponsor a student? Try her, see how she gets on. Think of this as a little challenge.

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Posted: July 14 2006,12:51

I calculated one time how much research the DI could do with their budget. The result was something like they could fund 40 postdocs, who would be expected to generate a total of 100-120 papers per year.

The main problem, though, is they don't have a research paradigm which can generate results.

guthrie

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Posted: July 14 2006,12:55

Oh yes, anyone want to rip apart Dembskis arrogant dismissal of evolution that is here:
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Dembski_ResponseToErik_081602.pdf

The first four or five pages consist of name calling, and ignoring the beam in your own eye whilst complaining about the tiny splinter in the eye of the bloke who is trying to help you get out of the ditch that you fell into because you couldnt see where you were going due to the large beam in your eye.

guthrie

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Posted: July 14 2006,13:00

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2006,17:51)

The main problem, though, is they don't have a research paradigm which can generate results.

Oh yes, I agree. There is a little bit of sarcasm in my posts, I should probably have made it more obvious.
Yet, they could at least try. If they dont, its just another sign of their bankruptcy.

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Posted: July 14 2006,13:27

Quote

July 14, 2006
UDers, Pandas, and others bring their case before Cornell�s students

Here is an exchange between Hannah Maxson (a rising senior with a triple major in the sciences at Cornell) and professor Allen MacNeill along with the various members of Uncommon Descent (UDers), Pandas Thumb (Pandas), ISCID, BSG, IDEA, NCSE, and other Cornell students and alumni.

I applaud MacNeill�s public civility toward his pupil, and I even more applaud what Maxson had to say. The exchange is a window into how the next generation of researchers are reacting to the ID controversy. Her views and that of her fellow students should be informative to everyone. I welcome hearing your reactions! [please try to be civil in your comments toward Allen. He has been respectful and supportive toward Hannah and the embattled IDEA club there. Thus, a little reciprocity is in order, IMHO. If you all wish to bash him, how about another thread, ok (and it won�t be by me)]

Hannah�s Comments

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My �confidence level� in intelligent design has been based more on the complete illogicity, irrationality and utter vacuity of most of the criticisms of ID that I hear than from any sort of reliance on Behe or Dembski�s work. In a way, I rely on you people to help me see the flaws in intelligent design theory� and I agree with Allen that critics can be your best friends. But if the critics do such a poor job coming up with any argument of interest, you begin to wonder if the theory being attacked is stronger than you thought.

Back when I was a sophomore I remember Michael Behe coming to Cornell, by invitation of the Biology Department and ACH. He gave a careful and fully scientific presentation, followed by an extensive Q&A or �public discussion� in which large contingent of the Cornell biology department participated. I hadn�t studied much about ID yet then, and knew nothing about the debate. What I remember most from that evening is that he gave a reasoned, scientific presentation and an even-toned response to all his critics, and they �many of whom had lost their cool before the evening was half over� had primarily arguments from emotion. Maybe only arguments from emotion; as far as a remember, no sound logical or scientific critique was presented that night.

Filed under: Intelligent Design � scordova @ 2:11 pm

Why is Hannah putting the burden on the establishment to disprove the challenger? That's backwards.

But, from side comments she's probably about 22 years old, so I trust that she'll figure these guys out sooner or later. It will be interesting to look these Cornell IDEA people up in a few years, and see what they have to say about ID.

dhogaza

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Posted: July 14 2006,15:49

Dembski asks:

Quote

Is this an ID paper?

Apparently since Medusa, their molecular modeling and design toolkit, generates results consistent with what we observe in nature, supporting their hypothesis, this implies that nature is designed.

Because Medusa, the modeling toolkit, being a computer program written by humans, was of course designed.

I think it's safe to assume that every significant result generated by computational biologists will be trumpeted by the IDers as being "more proof of design".

How silly. We model biochemistry, therefore the things we observe in nature were designed.

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Posted: July 14 2006,16:58

IS it an ID paper, Dembski? Why don't you tell us whether or not it is. Coward.

Faid

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Posted: July 14 2006,17:01

"Is this an �ID paper?" Hmm...

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It was suggested that protein homologs and analogs originate from a common ancestor and diverge in their distinct evolutionary time scales, emerging as a consequence of the physical properties of the protein sequence space. Although a number of studies have determined key signatures of protein family organization, the sequence-structure factors that differentiate the two evolution-related protein families remain unknown. Here, we stipulate that subtle structural changes, which appear due to accumulating mutations in the homologous families, lead to distinct packing of the protein core and, thus, novel compositions of core residues. The latter process leads to the formation of distinct families of homologs. We propose that such differentiation results in the formation of analogous families.

...Nope.

This is too easy. Next! �

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome. �And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

mcc

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Posted: July 14 2006,18:28

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2006,21:58)

IS it an ID paper, Dembski? Why don't you tell us whether or not it is. Coward.

Maybe he doesn't understand the vocabulary. Like, maybe it's actually an honest question and he isn't sure one way or the other.

mcc

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Posted: July 14 2006,18:33

So today I was surprised to see, for the first time that I have seen, that Uncommon Descent had put up a blog post which was intelligently-written, interesting, and persuasive.

It was written by some guy named "Jim Downard"

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Posted: July 14 2006,18:45

Quote (mcc @ July 15 2006,00:28)

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2006,21:58)

IS it an ID paper, Dembski? Why don't you tell us whether or not it is. Coward.

Maybe he doesn't understand the vocabulary. Like, maybe it's actually an honest question and he isn't sure one way or the other.

Possibly. I'm betting it's his cowardly way of implying to his audience that this is ID research, without saying anything he can be held to later. He knows it isn't ID research, so he won't come out and say it, but he can get the same effect on the rubes by writing the sentence like he did.

mcc

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Posted: July 14 2006,19:13

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2006,23:45)

Quote (mcc @ July 15 2006,00:28)

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2006,21:58)

IS it an ID paper, Dembski? Why don't you tell us whether or not it is. Coward.

Maybe he doesn't understand the vocabulary. Like, maybe it's actually an honest question and he isn't sure one way or the other.

Possibly. I'm betting it's his cowardly way of implying to his audience that this is ID research, without saying anything he can be held to later. He knows it isn't ID research, so he won't come out and say it, but he can get the same effect on the rubes by writing the sentence like he did.

Well, yeah, that's more likely.

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Posted: July 14 2006,19:19

And it works, asking "Is this an ID paper?". If he said "This is an ID paper", I could go to UNC, which is about 10 miles from my apartment, find Feng Ding, ask him what he thinks of Dembski's saying his paper was an ID paper, record him saying, "Bill Dembski has a ziploc bag full of cat vomit where most people have a brain", and post the .mp3 file by Monday evening. But am I going to go find Feng to say that Dembski implied his was an ID paper? Probably not.

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Posted: July 14 2006,19:33

Quote (stevestory @ July 15 2006,00:19)

And it works, asking "Is this an �ID paper?". If he said "This is an ID paper", I could go to UNC, which is about 10 miles from my apartment, find Feng Ding, ask him what he thinks of Dembski's saying his paper was an ID paper, record him saying, "Bill Dembski has a ziploc bag full of cat vomit where most people have a brain", and post the .mp3 file by Monday evening. But am I going to go find Feng to say that Dembski implied his was an ID paper? Probably not.

If you're that close by, might be worth doing anyway...

Or he11, JanieBelle's in North Carolina, maybe we can hit her up to run the errand? If she can, uh, come up for air, that is...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Posted: July 14 2006,19:35

Actually, I don't think I would waste time doing that under whatever circumstances. Because Dembski's no threat to anything. He's a guy who maybe started out as a sincere believer, at some point realized his revolution was a complete scientific failure, and now he just keeps up appearences to keep the checks rolling in. And it works, and if I'd made 7 figures off the rubes and could offload much of the day-to-day work on someone who's drunk the kool-aid, like Davetard, why would I admit I failed? Years from now, when he's just selling a book a day on Amazon, why even admit it then? That's a Classic Italian sub at Quiznos a week.

MMM, toasted.

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Posted: July 14 2006,19:44

Well, I'm just saddened that DT hasn't posted a spirited defense of Kent Hovind, in light of his recent martyrdom at the hands of the Godless Liberal Homos. I mean, come on, Dave, what is keeping you? ?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Posted: July 14 2006,19:44

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 15 2006,01:33)

Quote (stevestory @ July 15 2006,00:19)

And it works, asking "Is this an ID paper?". If he said "This is an ID paper", I could go to UNC, which is about 10 miles from my apartment, find Feng Ding, ask him what he thinks of Dembski's saying his paper was an ID paper, record him saying, "Bill Dembski has a ziploc bag full of cat vomit where most people have a brain", and post the .mp3 file by Monday evening. But am I going to go find Feng to say that Dembski implied his was an ID paper? Probably not.

If you're that close by, might be worth doing anyway...

Or he11, JanieBelle's in North Carolina, maybe we can hit her up to run the errand? If she can, uh, come up for air, that is...

While Davetard was interacting with 'her', I didn't say this--maybe I did, but I don't think I did--but I'm about 60/40 that JanieBelle is someone's fictitious character. I'm not certain; I have known pansexual girls like that before*, but none who would waste time commenting with Dembski and Davetard.

*BTW, if freaky pansexual girls are your thing, let me recommend two courses of action. Either hang with a community theater group, or stand on a busy intersection and yell "Man, I sure love me some Tom Robbins**!" for a few minutes. :-)

**Coincidentally, Tom Robbins is from North Carolina***.

***There is no footnote 3. I'm just a big David Foster Wallace fan, is all.

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Posted: July 14 2006,20:27

You mean like Still Life with Woodpecker? Ugh, I read that book (or tried to read it) back around 1980 and hated it!

As for JanieBelle, it's probably just residual religious upbringing that makes her unable to tell what a creep DaveScot is. Maybe she can tell us herself if she's real or not? �

Anyway, given the trajectory she's on, I doubt she'll still be dazzled by guys like that in another 5 years.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Posted: July 14 2006,20:30

How old were you? For some reason, Tom Robbins novels only make sense when you're around 16-23 yro.

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Posted: July 14 2006,20:37

Quote (stevestory @ July 15 2006,01:30)

How old were you? For some reason, Tom Robbins novels only make sense when you're around 16-23 yro.

I qualified -- I was 18 at the time and even then I thought the book was unbearably pretentious. I haven't read anything of his since, I have no idea how I'd react to it now.

But, my best (male) friend of the time, one year older than me, dug the he11 out of it. Go figure.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Posted: July 14 2006,20:52

Still Life with Woodpecker is okay, about on par with Skinny Legs and All, but not as good as it gets. I'd say his best stuff is Jitterbug Perfume, and Even Cowgirls Get the Blues. Another Roadside Attraction had a pretty badass premise, though the execution was mediocre.

k.e

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Posted: July 15 2006,03:46

hehehehehehe

Hannah Maxon...I wonder if she's pansexual?

SCordova (who IIRC thought Eugenie Scott was Hot! on PT when Sal flamed out late last year and was well and truly skewered over WADsian Wank...)

coff coff ..no offense to ES, she's more my age group and we have both seen better days of 'hotness' ..oh and they were VERY 'hot' days.
Well she did ruffle his feathers at some �*ahem* 'debate' late last year, so he seems easily flattered by simple bon mots and a magnanimous smile.

Well, Sal is now crudely trundling his eye to someone more his own age. Although I think Sal's boat left long ago as far as she is concerned.

What Sancho Cordova now needs to do is actually listen to what Ms. Maxon is saying...

Quote

What I remember most from that evening is that he[Behe] gave a reasoned, scientific presentation and an even-toned response to all his critics, and they �many of whom had lost their cool before the evening was half over� had primarily arguments from emotion. Maybe only arguments from emotion; as far as a remember, no sound logical or scientific critique was presented that night.

...er Sal Panza to Count Bill Quixote( and mini-me Dave Scott Springer) you should note Ms. Triple Major correctly pointed out Dembski's doppleganger Quixote , Behe Presented NO SCIENCE at a public parade of Pride and Prejudice DESIGNED to elicit an EMOTIONAL response;
Which she has projected as postmodernist equal time for stupid ideas. Like I said, blame country music and feminism.

That's the beauty of the Fundy propaganda machine, tell the big lie and count the money..oh and the power and the fame except if you are Sancho Panza-Cordova..... in which case, just suck up to minor celebrity for a share of the glory and maybe wear red leather jacket.

Well if you can't screw 'em at least get in the same photo.

As has been shown on the witness stand in Dover, the FINAL whistle has been blown on ID. Its ALL OVER.

McNeil is just playing with a dead mouse, hey why should we have all the fun?

Behe and Dembki both ALREADY have gone down in history ....in the dusty annals of of crazy guys in crazy places as a couple of dunces, doctorates and all.

"In a place in La Mancha, whose name I do not want to recall, there dwelt not so long ago a gentleman of the type wont to keep an unused lance, an old shield, a greyhound for racing, and a skinny old horse."

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

guthrie

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Posted: July 16 2006,00:20

Wow, just when you think its gone quiet, up pops Dembski, with another rehash of teleological thought:

thunder and lightning

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(1) IC (irreducible complexity) presupposes a basic primary purpose/function of a system � what is the basic purpose/function here? (making loud noises, illuminating the earth, generating heat, �);

So Dr Dembski, what is the basic function of a flagella? Or a human arm? Indeed, upon what basis do you presuppose a primary purpose of a system?

Quote

(2) the question confuses the necessary conditions for a system existing at all with its parts (the sun is no more �part� of lightning and thunder than water is �part� of the bacterial flagellum);

I dont quite get that- what part of "if there was no life on earth, there would be no flagellae" does he not get?
Water is a necessary part of the flagellum, because without the water, the flagellum is useless. (At least in ID world, in the real world it might get used for something else, like microbial sadomasochism.)

Quote

(3) IC needs SC (specified complexity) to nail down design, which means that the parts coming together have to be highly improbable � ignoring the last point, what is the probability of the sun, the earth, the evaporation of water, etc.? Do they not, on materialist principles, follow by necessity from deeper physical-chemical processes and laws?

But on theistic principles, they come from the designer, right? DEmbski seems terminally confused as to what game he is trying to play.

Quote

(4) Where are the independently given patterns � specifications � that allow the explanatory filter to operate and thus, according to my theory, implicate design?

I wish you'd tell us, we don't know.

Quote

Lightning serves a very useful purpose or function in the ecology of forests and plains. Certain plants depend on fire to release their seeds, which will not have suitable habitat to germinate unlesss the brush has been cleared off by the fire, as well. Without fire, typically provided by lightning in natural environments, these plants are not able to reproduce.

Gravity serves a very useful purpose too. Without it there wouldn�t be any air for those plants to breathe and they�d die. So what exactly was your point? -ds

Ahhh, lovely. DS misses the point completely.

The rest of the comments are typical.

Alan Fox

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Posted: July 16 2006,01:03

Quote

As has been shown on the witness stand in Dover, the FINAL whistle has been blown on ID. Its ALL OVER.

McNeil is just playing with a dead mouse, hey why should we have all the fun?

k.e is beginning to make very good sense to me. Thank you for your persistence, Sir.

Alan Fox

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