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Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:05   

Preach the controversy: Censor the commentary.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:14   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,13:48)
He highlighted ERV as one of his favorite blogs to read in some article she posted recently.  Again, Abbie speaks with pure hatred toward religion beliefs.  

You do realize that is possible to hate religions, and what they stand for without hating the religious?  Right?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:15   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,13:48)
In regard to banning (which is what timothee is ranting about), obviously more banning will occur at UD because there are many more on-line Darwinists then there are on-line IDists.  

I'd guess that many IDists have, at some point, been banned from Darwinist forums and blogs.  Relatively speaking, I'd bet that Darwinist and IDist incidents of banning are similiar in number.

And yet we are treated to many posts by DT et al. telling us that IDists represent the majority in this country.

I don't think you can have it both ways, dear.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:23   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 10 2007,14:14)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,13:48)
He highlighted ERV as one of his favorite blogs to read in some article she posted recently.  Again, Abbie speaks with pure hatred toward religion beliefs.  

You do realize that is possible to hate religions, and what they stand for without hating the religious?  Right?

I hate disease, but I feel pity, empathy and love for the sick.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:27   

Quote
It's interesting that we're suppose to believe that militant atheist scientists are only interested in defending science rather than literally building an army against religion.


Wow. Is this one of those misuses of "literally," or do you actually believe that atheists are building little militias of persecution?

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"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:30   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 10 2007,14:14)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,13:48)
He highlighted ERV as one of his favorite blogs to read in some article she posted recently.  Again, Abbie speaks with pure hatred toward religion beliefs.  

You do realize that is possible to hate religions, and what they stand for without hating the religious?  Right?

Indeed, isn't "hate the sin, not the sinner" the same kind of logic?

Quote

Wow. Is this one of those misuses of "literally," or do you actually believe that atheists are building little militias of persecution?


I once overhead someone say "my head literally exploded".

They weren't trying to be funny.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:35   

Quote
I once overhead someone say "my head literally exploded".

They weren't trying to be funny.


Ya ya, I'm literally in Wisconsin.  That doesn't mean I'm a cheesehead.  :)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,14:58   

Quote (jeffox @ Oct. 10 2007,14:35)
Ya ya, I'm literally in Wisconsin.  That doesn't mean I'm a cheesehead.  :)

Yes it does!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,15:07   

Quote
Quote (jeffox @ Oct. 10 2007,14:35)
Ya ya, I'm literally in Wisconsin.  That doesn't mean I'm a cheesehead.  :)

Yes it does!


No offense, (very, very bad pun there) but it will be one very hot day in Minnesota before I put a cheese wedgie on my head.  :)

Jerry (the kid) sez:

Quote
Someday Chemists and Physicists will be able to predict the properties of compounds directly from its molecular structure and water will no longer be a mystery.


Umm, aaahh, hmmm, isn't there a word for that?  Oh, yeah, chemistry or something like that.  :)

p.s. @J-Dog - I claim that I'm currently in exile.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,16:53   

Here we go.

Jerry gets uppity at ReligionProf:

Quote
I do not think that ReligionProf knows much biology so it is likely he will accept their words because he does not have the knowledge for critical thinking. It is interesting that he thinks we do not understand biology either and should likewise accept the current world-view as truth and as allanius pointed out above world-views change like the wind.



ReligionProf responds:

Quote
I do not have a degree in biology - Jerry, please do let us all know what your qualifications are. But the proponents of Intelligent Design seem to feel that well-informed laypeople can and should make decisions about this subject, and I can safely place myself in the latter category.


Jerry blasts back:

Quote
25

jerry

10/10/2007

4:44 pm
ReligionProf,

I have had biology courses. To keep up to date I also have gone through the U. of Cal Berkeley evolution sections of their biology course four times to see what different professors teach. I went through most of the rest of their first year biology course. One does not need anything more to understand the issues and I defy you to find anyone who will say otherwise. I also have been through the evolution sections of the most popular biology text books.

I have also read several of the books supporting naturalistic evolution and several books that challenge it. I have a background in science and the scientific process so I know what is supported and what is not.

I will challenge any professor at Butler you can get to a discussion of the details of evolution. My guess none will be interested since they may not like the answers. But if they do I hope they will be more respectful of our knowledge than you seem to be.


and that's why he's my *** TARD OF THE WEEK***

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,16:59   

Quote (jerryatUD @ 4:44 pm)

ReligionProf,

I have had biology courses. To keep up to date I also have gone through the U. of Cal Berkeley evolution sections of their biology course four times to see what different professors teach. I went through most of the rest of their first year biology course. One does not need anything more to understand the issues and I defy you to find anyone who will say otherwise. I also have been through the evolution sections of the most popular biology text books.

In case ReligionProf reads this site, here is something for him to tell jerry.

I say "otherwise". And he can quote me.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,17:20   

Yes by all means count me in.

Quote
I say otherwise, dickhead




--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,17:44   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 10 2007,11:04)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 10 2007,05:13)
I thought I'd take a moment to rework a fraction of DS' latest masterwork
 
Quote
It isn’t quick or easy for God to go laying down foundations that span an entire planetary surface. God needed  to oxygenate the atmosphere. The time of great upheavals and catastrophy in a young solar system had to be waited out. God had to lay down Fossil fuel reserves to power an upcoming industrial species. My contention is that industry didn’t arise because a power source was available for it but rather God made a power source available so that industry could arise. God prepared the way in advance. God planned it  that way.


See DaveScot, how much better is that? Be honest with yourself man, at least have that much courage.

My emphasis.

So what about that "omnipotence" business?  Was that just PR?

tO be clear, I added/edited the word god into the quote from DS there.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,18:07   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,14:48)
In regard to banning (which is what timothee is ranting about), obviously more banning will occur at UD because there are many more on-line Darwinists then there are on-line IDists.  

I'd guess that many IDists have, at some point, been banned from Darwinist forums and blogs.  Relatively speaking, I'd bet that Darwinist and IDist incidents of banning are similiar in number.

Unbelievable.

   
Altabin



Posts: 308
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,18:59   

The ever dependable bornagain77:
 
Quote
Rel. Prof. you stated in your criticism of O’Leary’s book.

It is the equivalent of saying “Nasty materialist scientists are claiming that water is nothing more than hydrogen and oxygen. But we’ve experienced that water has properties that are not the properties of hydrogen and oxygen. Therefore God must have inserted something miraculous and immaterial that accounts for its wetness.” The concept of emergent properties is, alas, ignored.

Funny you should mention water, for in water, evidence for Intelligent Design is found everywhere


I refute him thus.

--------------

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,19:12   

Quote (Altabin @ Oct. 10 2007,18:59)
The ever dependable bornagain77:
     
Quote
Rel. Prof. you stated in your criticism of O’Leary’s book.

It is the equivalent of saying “Nasty materialist scientists are claiming that water is nothing more than hydrogen and oxygen. But we’ve experienced that water has properties that are not the properties of hydrogen and oxygen. Therefore God must have inserted something miraculous and immaterial that accounts for its wetness.” The concept of emergent properties is, alas, ignored.

Funny you should mention water, for in water, evidence for Intelligent Design is found everywhere


I refute him thus.

No. I think he is right.  Look here for the ID position on water.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,20:25   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,14:48)
I'd guess that many IDists have, at some point, been banned from Darwinist forums and blogs.  Relatively speaking, I'd bet that Darwinist and IDist incidents of banning are similiar in number.

FTK, show us a blog, or any combination of blogs authored by advocates of evolutionary biology whose record of banning approaches 1/100th of this. Be sure to read all three pages.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,20:38   

Speaking of bandwagons, BarryA jumps right on:
 
Quote
Dawkins Jumps on Board the International Jewish Conspiracy Bandwagon

Because as we all know, fundamentalists love them some Jews.

Added in the interests of full disclosure: I commented on the Respectful Insolence post a couple of days ago and have carried on a tangential conversation over at paralepsis.  I'm in the camp that thinks Dawkins was wrong to refer to the Israel lobby as "the Jewish lobby," as it implicitly maligns people like my friends in Jewish Voices for Peace.  But I agree to some extent about the power of the Israel lobby in American politics (and, from time to time, academia).

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,21:53   

Quote

FTK, show us a blog, or any combination of blogs authored by advocates of evolutionary biology whose record of banning approaches 1/100th of this. Be sure to read all three pages.


Ah, but if one adopts a relativistic stance, one can claim that it's all just the same thing in proportion, because there are so many more badly-behaving pro-science people to be banned because of their bad behavior and so few righteous anti-science folks willing to subject themselves to the manifestly unfair moderation at pro-science discussion sites, where they get banned simply because of their viewpoint. That is, I believe, actually fairly close to what FtK does think of the matter.

That said, I have to agree in some small part, that at least those who evade a banning at a site are behaving badly. I haven't noticed there being much in the way of a disproportionate number behaving badly in that way on either side, though; that seems to be quite a generalized and common form of behaving badly.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,22:11   

Quote
Ah, but if one adopts a relativistic stance, one can claim that it's all just the same thing in proportion, because there are so many more badly-behaving pro-science people to be banned because of their bad behavior and so few righteous anticool-science folks willing to subject themselves to the manifestly unfair moderation at pro-science discussion sites, where they get banned simply because of their viewpoint. That is, I believe, actually fairly close to what FtK does think of the matter.


LOL...yeah, what he said...!  

Hey, Wes, how come you're a Christian?  Do you have, like, a "Why I'm a Christian" article out in cyberspace somewhere?  Just curious.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2007,22:42   

Go away, FtK.

You are still boring.  Take a long walk off a short pier.  Thanks.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,02:48   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,22:11)
Hey, Wes, how come you're a Christian?  Do you have, like, a "Why I'm a Christian" article out in cyberspace somewhere?  Just curious.

Do you? Oh yeah, it's the "evidence" that convinced you, right?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,06:21   

FtK, you forgot to answer Reciprocating Bill's question.  Here it is again:  
Quote
FTK, show us a blog, or any combination of blogs authored by advocates of evolutionary biology whose record of banning approaches 1/100th of this. Be sure to read all three pages.

I'll give you a bright shiny dime if you can find one.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,06:27   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,22:11)
Hey, Wes, how come you're a Christian?  Do you have, like, a "Why I'm a Christian" article out in cyberspace somewhere?  Just curious.

Right on cue. Backing off from answering questions or talking about science. Right back to talking about other people's religious views. And hoping that nobody notices this time.

Yawn.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,06:53   

I've got a question about the No Free Lunch theorems.  I hope somebody can clarify things for me.

I don't claim to understand the math behind NFL, but from reading the commentary, I get the impression that the theory says that there is no single search strategy that will work perfectly for ALL possible search spaces and data arrangements.  For example:

If you have an array set up like this:

1: apple
2: cow
3: echo
4: FTK
5: Geronimo
6: salivate

A simple binary search type algorithm will let you find the word "echo" in the array in three steps or less because the entries are in alphabetical order.

But if the array is arranged like this:

1: cow
2: salivate
3: FTK
4: apple
5: Geronimo
6: echo

The binary search algorithm won't work.

Furthermore, the NFL theorem seems to say that, averaged over all possible arrangements of the data in the array, no single algorithm will work better than a random search, where you choose a number at random, look at the word in that position, see if it's the word you're looking for and repeat the search if it isn't.

Finally, the big thing about the NFL theorem is that it was mathematically proven a few years ago.  Is this more or less right?

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,08:59   

Quote (djmullen @ Oct. 11 2007,06:53)
I've got a question about the No Free Lunch theorems.  I hope somebody can clarify things for me.

I don't claim to understand the math behind NFL, but from reading the commentary, I get the impression that the theory says that there is no single search strategy that will work perfectly for ALL possible search spaces and data arrangements.  For example:

If you have an array set up like this:

1: apple
2: cow
3: echo
4: FTK
5: Geronimo
6: salivate

A simple binary search type algorithm will let you find the word "echo" in the array in three steps or less because the entries are in alphabetical order.

But if the array is arranged like this:

1: cow
2: salivate
3: FTK
4: apple
5: Geronimo
6: echo

The binary search algorithm won't work.

Furthermore, the NFL theorem seems to say that, averaged over all possible arrangements of the data in the array, no single algorithm will work better than a random search, where you choose a number at random, look at the word in that position, see if it's the word you're looking for and repeat the search if it isn't.

Finally, the big thing about the NFL theorem is that it was mathematically proven a few years ago.  Is this more or less right?

My understanding of the critiques of Dembski's work is as follows:

The mathematics is correct - it is true that, averaged over all possible arrangements, no fitness function is greater than any other. But this is not an interesting result. It's like saying that if you stick a sausage in a blender, you get a mushy paste - whereas biologists are more interested in sausages.

It's basically the mathematical equivalent of quote mining - Dembski takes this uninteresting result and tries to claim that it applies to biology, where actually, the situation is quite different. In evolution, we have fitness landscapes, which are full of hills and valleys and mount improbables - in the NFL, we have a random spiky mush.

The result of this is that we can define neighbourhoods in fitness space. One of the examples given by (Haeggstroem?) is that of DNA; we know that, quite often, changing just one nucleotide does not change much at all; the resulting organism has similar or the same fitness. This implicitly defines a neighbourhood; the neighbours to any DNA sequence are all those that can be reached by mutating one nucleotide - and this is how evolution works! (In fact, it's just one of several ways, which gives the fitness neighbourhood even greater population).

But the NFL does not work on this. The NFL is only interested in spiky mushes, where no neighbourhoods can be defined. It would be like a rabbit giving birth to cloud of meat every time one of its nucleotides changed.

So Dembski is math-mining. He goes on, however, to claim that, IF the fitness landscape is so well defined, well, what are the odds of that! It must have been designed! and at that point, you have a man who is quite divorced from reality, and who seems to be claiming that fitness gradients cannot occur in nature. In other words, if you hold Dembski to his words, all the peppered moths have a random chance of being eaten.

Well, that's my understanding of the papers. I am not a mathematician, however, and am more than welcome to be corrected. Mostly it seems that Dembski is claiming stuff so incredibly dumb, underneath the cover of math, that no one will believe he could be so dumb, and instead are left with something incredible.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,09:23   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 10 2007,22:11)
Quote
Ah, but if one adopts a relativistic stance, one can claim that it's all just the same thing in proportion, because there are so many more badly-behaving pro-science people to be banned because of their bad behavior and so few righteous anticool-science folks willing to subject themselves to the manifestly unfair moderation at pro-science discussion sites, where they get banned simply because of their viewpoint. That is, I believe, actually fairly close to what FtK does think of the matter.


LOL...yeah, what he said...!  

Hey, Wes, how come you're a Christian?  Do you have, like, a "Why I'm a Christian" article out in cyberspace somewhere?  Just curious.

Hey FTK, why are you a christian?  Seriously.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,10:25   

Remember that Jerry was telling us all how he was knowledgeable about biology?  Well, Prof. Myers may like to look away...
Quote

I have a remote related question to what paraklete just said,
Has any part of the body been identified with development. We all know that development operates quickly during gestation so it is guided some how but it also operates for several more years after that and maybe till death. If some part of the brain or part of the body is removed, does it affect development? I find this an interesting question because “how does it know?” Obviously this could be done with any experimental mammal such as mice to get the answer. Does anyone know if this has been done?

Luckily I'm not a developmental biologist, but reading this I feel pain on their behalf.

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,10:59   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Oct. 11 2007,10:25)
Remember that Jerry was telling us all how he was knowledgeable about biology?  Well, Prof. Myers may like to look away...
Quote

I have a remote related question to what paraklete just said,
Has any part of the body been identified with development. We all know that development operates quickly during gestation so it is guided some how but it also operates for several more years after that and maybe till death. If some part of the brain or part of the body is removed, does it affect development? I find this an interesting question because “how does it know?” Obviously this could be done with any experimental mammal such as mice to get the answer. Does anyone know if this has been done?

Luckily I'm not a developmental biologist, but reading this I feel pain on their behalf.

Bob

Jerry has got to be a troll.  Or else one of the stupidest, non-developed, barin-dead super tarded homo non-sapiens ever.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Altabin



Posts: 308
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2007,10:59   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Oct. 11 2007,17:25)
Remember that Jerry was telling us all how he was knowledgeable about biology?  Well, Prof. Myers may like to look away...
Quote

I have a remote related question to what paraklete just said,
Has any part of the body been identified with development. We all know that development operates quickly during gestation so it is guided some how but it also operates for several more years after that and maybe till death. If some part of the brain or part of the body is removed, does it affect development? I find this an interesting question because “how does it know?” Obviously this could be done with any experimental mammal such as mice to get the answer. Does anyone know if this has been done?

Luckily I'm not a developmental biologist, but reading this I feel pain on their behalf.

Bob

Bob, just remember that they laughed at Copernicus too.  Jerry is Copernicus.  This is what a scientific revolution looks like.

--------------

  
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