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deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2006,21:46   

Re : Dumbo and Dumbo's Man and their retraction:  Ah, what a tangled web we weave, and how bitter the taste of crow. HAHAHAHAHA. Ah, ya gotta love it

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2006,21:49   

Quote (JPadilla @ May 14 2006,17:09)
As a Theistic Evolutionist, I'd like to thank the denizens of this board and their insights. After Seeing not merely the tactics, but also the intellectual ( and ethical) vacuity of William Dembski, I'll have nothing more to do with it. This was the final post I sent to "DaveScot," and the content owes a great deal to the archives here:

My Point is quite simple,DaveScot, and I know you read the posts here: You excoriate Kevin Padian (again, wrongly) for saying that religious fundamentalist fanatacism that leads to murder…is wrong.

You then take that simple idea and twist it to mean that Kevin Padian somehow hates all fundamentalists and lumps all killers together unfairly, according to your erroneous redefinitions of what a suicide bomber is. As I noted, SOME suicide bombings are considered legitimate military actions when directed against military targets. But you say :

“If Padian can’t tell the difference between a mass murdering suicide bomber indiscriminately blowing up crowds of people and a gunman carefully selecting a single target for murder then Padian simply isn’t playing with a full deck and one has to hope he never decides to murder anyone because he isn’t able to distinguish between killing a crowd of strangers and a single person against whom he holds a grudge.”

Let’s be quite honest, DaveScot: from what I have read at Uncommon Descent and other forums, your only interest in attacking Kevin Padian is not because he is a “racist” or that he “hates fundamentalism” because he said no such things. What you hate is that Kevin Padian testified in the Kitzmiller case, so you have embarked on what one writer at Panda’s Thumb has called a “SwiftBoat” campaign.

You rail at Padian for trumped-up claims that he NEVER said and then excuse your own murderous statements about killing Muslims. This is hypocrisy. You fail to allow others to point out your errors. This is called hubris. Here is what I really think, DaveScot — a person here, in the “After the Bar Closes” section analyzed you to what I think is a tee: You are at best a mediocre mind that was able to get in on the ground floor of a company which took off. But it was not due to your innate mental abilities—you don’t *really* know math, or stats or information theory, or genetics, or much of anything. It was simply luck. You have an overweening sense of your own self-importance however, and now seek the attention of others via your imagined mental abilities, but you fail in direct debate and exchange of ideas. So you used troll tactics at “Darwinist” sites until you got the attention of William Dembsky, who used what little computer skills you have to appoint you “gatekeeper” and you now feel all filled with self-importance, but still cannot manage a coherent supported debate.

So what is left for you but to pose and preen and attack people like Padian dishonestly and hypocritically while disallowing any disagreement…while others laugh at your inanity and point out your errors and fallacies and utter lies by the boatload at places like…here.

I will vote with my feet. In Mark 6:11 says that when one is not welcome or unheard, “shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them.” I believe I’ll do just that.

Note: the above quote was also delivered here, under the  http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/05/more_dembski_de.html#more   thread. Thanks for the good work here -- keep it up. No religion deserves the kind of "support" that William Dembski offers. Lies are not a good thing, last I heard. Sincerely, JP

Well said, Sir!

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2006,23:34   

From a commenter on Dembski's apology thread:  
Quote
This is the diference between Evolution critics and Darwinists. While Darwinian skeptics at least try to keep it honest, such mentality is almost (or entirely) absent from the Darwinian camp (The example you gave about Jon Wells is telling).

For keeping the discussion honest and civil, thank you Bill for your public retraction.
God bless you, and keep up with the good work, and with the good science.

Comment by Mats — May 15, 2006 @ 3:41 am

The sad thing is that he seems to be sincere.  Mats must not be aware of Dembski's "street theater" and "Amazon review" escapades; otherwise he would not be able to say those things with a straight face.  

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,00:05   

Quote (keiths @ May 14 2006,23:34)
From a commenter on Dembski's apology thread:  
Quote
This is the diference between Evolution critics and Darwinists. While Darwinian skeptics at least try to keep it honest, such mentality is almost (or entirely) absent from the Darwinian camp (The example you gave about Jon Wells is telling).

For keeping the discussion honest and civil, thank you Bill for your public retraction.
God bless you, and keep up with the good work, and with the good science.

Comment by Mats — May 15, 2006 @ 3:41 am

The sad thing is that he seems to be sincere.  Mats must not be aware of Dembski's "street theater" and "Amazon review" escapades; otherwise he would not be able to say those things with a straight face.

Quote
This is the diference between Evolution critics and Darwinists.


Would it be fair to say that one difference is that no pro-evolution site has had to offer an apology and retraction for defamation. I certainly don't recall any such event, but it would be good to know for certain.

  
JPadilla



Posts: 2
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,00:56   

The thing that irks me at this point is that there are, as of this time, two posts at Uncommon Descent applauding William Dembski for his "honesty" -- while the truth is that I had posted on May 10, AT HIS BLOG that I had contacted a Christian friend of mine that said his "informant" was wrong. I TOLD HIM (or DaveScot) that. They refused to post it.

They also refused to post my parting shot:

"Perhaps this incident will help persuade both sides in this debate to stay on topic and focus on the issues" is precisely what TinaBrewer, myself and others had been arguing for. Once I found out for myself, from a Christian colleague, that Padian had not done what was claimed, I made it known here. I only wish it had been taken seriously then. I don't relish having to post *my* apologies on other sites when I offered one to be posted here, but I have made my decision about leaving this forum and don't wish to belabor the subject. JP

I've seen this sort of thing before, normally in political disputes, but I don't know of anytime that I have personally been involved in such an unsavory example of utter lying, posturing and hypocrisy under the guise of "science " and "Christianity." I am literally disgusted by the blatant disregard for honor, honesty and basic human decency that William Dembski and "DaveScot" have exhibited in this affair.

To project to their "constituency" the image that they somehow did not have an inkling of the erroneous nature of their information merely compounds their guilt.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,01:12   

Latest from DaveScot on the Padian affair:
Quote
#

Calling Kevin Padian a bigot isn’t an ad hominem. It’s a simple observation of fact. Padian is bigotted against Christian fundamentalists. Perhaps he isn’t bigotted against Asians in particular but I wouldn’t bet on it. Bigots are as bigots do.

Here’s a classic example of Padian’s bigotry:

From the LA Times

   The nation’s top paleontologists find the creation theory preposterous and say children are being misled by dinosaur exhibits that take the Jurassic out of “Jurassic Park.”

   “Dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden, and Noah’s Ark? Give me a break,” said Kevin Padian, curator at the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley and president of National Center for Science Education, an Oakland group that supports teaching evolution. “For them, ‘The Flintstones’ is a documentary.”

Here Padian clearly and flippantly states that
somewhere near half of the U.S. population who believe in the biblical account of creation think a popular cartoon show, The Flintstones, is based upon fact. This is bigotry. There’s no getting around it. Padian is a bigot who mocks anyone that takes the bible literally.

Comment by DaveScot — May 15, 2006 @ 6:03 am


This somewhat qualifies the apology. (Link)

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,01:43   

Quote
“Dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden, and Noah’s Ark? Give me a break,” said Kevin Padian, curator at the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley and president of National Center for Science Education, an Oakland group that supports teaching evolution. “For them, ‘The Flintstones’ is a documentary.”

Here Padian clearly and flippantly states that
somewhere near half of the U.S. population who believe in the biblical account of creation think a popular cartoon show, The Flintstones, is based upon fact. This is bigotry. There’s no getting around it. Padian is a bigot who mocks anyone that takes the bible literally.


Comment by DaveScot — May 15, 2006 @ 6:03 am

Well, I guess that, under that logic, I'm a bigot too; against Davescotian Bull####ists.
Does that sect have some kind of mass anywhere, so I can, you know, stand outside and shout hideous slurs at them- like "cartoon believers"?
:D  :D  :D  :D  :D

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,03:58   

Quote (Faid @ May 15 2006,06:43)
Quote
“Dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden, and Noah’s Ark? Give me a break,” said Kevin Padian, curator at the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley and president of National Center for Science Education, an Oakland group that supports teaching evolution. “For them, ‘The Flintstones’ is a documentary.”

Here Padian clearly and flippantly states that
somewhere near half of the U.S. population who believe in the biblical account of creation think a popular cartoon show, The Flintstones, is based upon fact. This is bigotry. There’s no getting around it. Padian is a bigot who mocks anyone that takes the bible literally.


Comment by DaveScot — May 15, 2006 @ 6:03 am

Well, I guess that, under that logic, I'm a bigot too; against Davescotian Bull####ists.
Does that sect have some kind of mass anywhere, so I can, you know, stand outside and shout hideous slurs at them- like "cartoon believers"?
:D  :D  :D  :D  :D

I think it does more than qualify Dembski's apology, it shows that Dumbo's Man didn't want to apologize at all. He's either defying Dumbo in his wimpy way, or it's some sort of good cop/bad cop shtick -- Dumbo looks good by apologizing, but DM lets you know where they really stand.

And of course, Dumbo's Man hates Muslims, which means that he's 'bigotted' [sic] against one billion of the Earth's inhabitants. He's essentially redefined 'bigotry' to a point of meaninglessness.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,04:11   

The definition of bigotry being used here seems pretty consistent. A bigot is someone who doesn't share my prejudices.

  
beervolcano



Posts: 147
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,04:38   

Quote
Padian is a bigot who mocks anyone that takes the bible literally.


Quote
I’m deeply offended when I see attacks made not on ideas but instead on the people who hold them

Hilarious.

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("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."--Jonathan Swift)

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,04:47   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 15 2006,08:58)
[o]r it's some sort of good cop/bad cop shtick -- Dumbo looks good by apologizing, but DM lets you know where they really stand.

Yup, that's where my money is.  ;)

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,04:51   

Quote (beervolcano @ May 15 2006,09:38)
 
Quote
Padian is a bigot who mocks anyone that takes the bible literally.


   
Quote
I’m deeply offended when I see attacks made not on ideas but instead on the people who hold them

Hilarious.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a trend where people who use the phrase "I’m deeply offended" are almost always assholes?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
beervolcano



Posts: 147
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,04:52   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1121#more-1121

Quote
It’s obviously intended to poke fun at what ID opponents claim to be ID’s lack of scientific rigor, but I think it does a fine job of illustrating the lengths to which methodological naturalists will go to avoid the common sense simplicity of ID claims. If I were to redraw this cartoon, there’s really not very much I would change.

There is it again, the claim that ID does not follow "naturalism" meaning, I guess, that it requires "supernaturalism"? And do you mean that "common sense simplicity" that is "looks designed to me"?

Quote
One particular feature of the cartoon that strikes me as odd is that the IDist is trying to name the duck.

Indeed.

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("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."--Jonathan Swift)

  
beervolcano



Posts: 147
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,04:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 15 2006,09:51)

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a trend where people who use the phrase "I’m deeply offended" are almost always assholes?

I'm deeply offended by that characterization. :angry:


DOH!  :O

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("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."--Jonathan Swift)

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,05:05   

Quote
In any case, I should not have engaged in ad hominems against Kevin Padian and apologize to him for doing so. Perhaps this incident will help persuade both sides in this debate to stay on topic and focus on the issues.

Filed under: Intelligent Design — William Dembski @ 12:23 am

...Issues like the ACLU in cahoots with the Dover board to grab taxpayer's money, church burnings, The notorious supervillain Dr. Pianka and, of course, Mr. SNIP SNIP from SNIP SNIP University.

Gotcha, Bill.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,05:06   

Quote
If Padian’s remark about the Flintstones wasn’t meant to denigrate creationists then my remark about it being bigotry obviously doesn’t apply either. You be the judge. -ds
It's just one dumb mistake after another, over there.

   
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,05:26   

Quote
Padian was clearly using humour to make a point - namely, “To believe that dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark is as ridiculous as believing that The Flintstone’s is a documentary”. The fact you disagree with his point (and didn’t find his attempt at humour amusing) doesn’t make his remark “bigoted”. If that’s how low the bar is now to be set on “bigotry”, then heaven help freedom of expression and vigorous debate.

If that’s what you think maybe you shouldn’t read my comment as a *serious* assertion that Padian is a bigot. -ds

Comment by John H — May 15, 2006 @ 8:26 am

Whoops, looks like Dr.Dembski pulled the slipper... Dumbo's Man seems to say now that he was joking all along...

...Are you guys sure we don't have to pay for all this? I don't wanna see any kind of "Dumbo&Co entertainment fees" charged in my account somehow...

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,05:39   

It's been a funny year, with Davetard at the helm.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,05:44   

Quote (Faid @ May 15 2006,10:05)
 
Quote
In any case, I should not have engaged in ad hominems against Kevin Padian and apologize to him for doing so. Perhaps this incident will help persuade both sides in this debate to stay on topic and focus on the issues.

Filed under: Intelligent Design — William Dembski @ 12:23 am

...Issues like the ACLU in cahoots with the Dover board to grab taxpayer's money, church burnings, The notorious supervillain Dr. Pianka and, of course, Mr. SNIP SNIP from SNIP SNIP University.

Gotcha, Bill.

The pattern is clear -- every month or so, DM sallies forth with another swiftboating against some villain of evolution. He makes up ridiculous cartoonish lies about the person, ignores anyone who points out that it's nothing but lies, and keeps upping the volume and absurdity for a week or so. Church burning, ebola, klansman, blah, blah, blah. Anything to paint 'evilutionists' as horribly wicked people. His loyal dimbulbs at UD chime in in agreement, and anyone who dissents is quickly banned. Then Demski comes along, posts a stilted retraction, DM makes a few snarls to reassure the faithful that he isn't taking back a single word of it, then it tapers off. Then, a month later, repeat the whole process again with a new talking point.

Dembski and DM have learned well from Karl Rove. This is what ID does in the absence of any research or evidence.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,05:49   

Quote (stevestory @ May 15 2006,10:39)
It's been a funny year, with Davetard at the helm.

UD wasn't this much of a freak show last year when it was still just Dembski running it, was it? I wasn't paying much attention back then.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,06:07   

no, it wasn't. Dembski was just as hysterical about censoring disagreement, but he had better judgement. I don't think he would have courted JAD, for instance. Dembski's much smarter than the group DougMoron, Davetard, BarryA, etc. Those guys don't know anything about science, anything at all.

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,06:46   

Said Faid:
 
Quote

...Are you guys sure we don't have to pay for all this? I don't wanna see any kind of "Dumbo&Co entertainment fees" charged in my account somehow...

Yeah great isn't it?
There HAS to be money in this somewhere, is there a market for watching clowns trip over themselves....oh yeah...the circus.
Pity the animal rights people have set the bar higher and the lower mammals are now not allowed to be baited for human entertainment. We could clean up.
Let’s see... what has the uncommonly dense asylum actors troupe performed for us through the bars?
1)The humor of political correctness performed while being indistinguishable from a pompous fascist.
2)The pathos of vanity and folly causing unintentionally irony while  being perfectly inconsistent, coupled with the incongruity of their own perceived seriousness…irony in it’s truest sense.
3)THE FUN of seeing dumb city boy proper WASP clones mistake common sense with the effects of an opiate....they don't need big silly shoes to seem like they can barely stand up.
4)A parody on the last supper .....Eating crow as though it were fine French cuisine flushed down with Dover whine made from tears of DI Martyrs
5)A history lesson.....Proving Voltaire right long after his death.
6)A literature lesson ......Making  Beckett’s and Orwell's work seem like it could have been written yesterday.
7)A lesson in humility….Dang…. I mean sarcasm.
8)The Ultimate lesson......Making Finnegans Wake  (the version without the apostrophe) intelligible in the sense there is nothing new under the night and the dreams of language makers.
9) So lets drink to the accidental entertainers and hope the never-ending mirth they supply will never let this list be completed….perhaps they could make the whole thing Open Source and then I could play it on a game boy…nah….. then it would be predictable…

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,06:59   

oookay... It's hard to make sense with Dave, so help me here...

Quote
“Perhaps this incident will help persuade both sides in this debate to stay on topic and focus on the issues” is precisely what TinaBrewer, myself and others had been arguing for. Once I found out for myself, from a Christian colleague, that Padian had not done what was claimed, I made it known here. I only wish it had been taken seriously then. I don’t relish having to post *my* apologies on other sites when I offered one to be posted here, but I have made my decision about leaving this forum and don’t wish to belabor the subject. JP

Padilla, if your “retraction” had been written with a civil tongue I would have let it through. Instead, if you’d bothered to look, I deleted your original comment agreeing with Dembski that Padian made a racist remark. Don’t worry about making a decision to leave this forum. I made that decision for you when you wrote the original nastygram. -ds

So... is Dumbo's Man actually saying that he banned JPadilla because of his original comment, where he agreed with Dembsk?
Following that logic, shouldn't he also ban almost every other commenter, including Dembski and himself?

If that's what he's saying (and seeing how he went from "Padian, you bigotted bigot" to "heh, just kidding" in no time), I won't be surprised at all if, in a few days, he'll say he was the only one DEFENDING Padian from mudslinging...
:O

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,07:17   

...Whoooops!
Quote
bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. It appears to me that Padian is strongly partial to people who believe in Darwinian evolution and is intolerant of creationist beliefs. Am I wrong? Does he tolerate differing views? If he does tolerate them then what exactly is it that NCSE is doing if not trying to censor creationist beliefs in science education? -ds

(Bolds, italics, and underlining all mine)

Feast on it, guys, cuz it sure aint gonna stay up for long...

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,07:32   

umm....so?
He can use the word creationist....even if he claims not to be...

He is arguing that censoring something is the equivalent of being intolerant of it....
What DS fails to realize is that it would only be intolerant if they were attempting to censor it everywhere....
They are only censoring it within certain realms...and that is all they wish to do...
I have yet to hear the NCSE claim that they want to irradicate creationism...or anything similiar to that....
Basically DS has been carefully redefining the word bigot so that he doesnt look like an idiot.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,07:32   

Exactly! Censoring is bigotry! Uh...wait a minute....uh...gotta go. -ds

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,08:44   

I don't think DM is reading off a script anymore -- I think he's just blithering now. He's redefined 'bigot' so broadly it includes anyone. Right about now he should be realizing this includes him, too. WHOOPS.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,09:12   

Well, I thought that Dave got carried away and forgot that prime rule: "Teach the Controversy"=/=Creationism.

But, after seeing the way the Doctor's blog is heading, I guess that doesn't amount to much now...

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,09:47   

I finally got the cron job just right, so I can now announce the  memory hole's memory, "Buud".

As mentioned in the "Blog Mirror Project" thread, there are some further things to be done to complete the memory bank functions, but this is a start.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2006,10:12   

Quote
I think he's just blithering now.


er... just now?

when wasn't he?

  
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