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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,23:31   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 16 2008,06:50)
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 15 2008,19:07)
   
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Dec. 15 2008,18:52)
 Maybe it was Satan possessing the arm that attacked the man's wife?

I always thought possession was all-or-nothing.  On the other hand, maybe the bargain the guy made was only semi-Faustian.

Yeah, maybe he only agreed to rent or lease his soul, and in return he got an old car that didn't run real well and a house in an iffy neighborhood with a leaky roof.

But nevertheless, after he died, he immediately went to Heck.

HAR HAR THIS IS YOU



--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,23:40   

Quote (sparc @ Dec. 15 2008,21:18)
After 1.5 days Mario Lopez finally not-pologizes: It surely wasn't my fault:    
Quote

My apologies to everyone. Thank you, AussieID, for pointing to the source of that last quote. The original blogger on this is found here:

http://pos-darwinista.blogspot.com/

–Mario

Lopez is either dishonest or stupid.  The "original blogger" clearly attributes the quote to Behe, not Brosh:
Quote
Interessante que nesta longa citação, a frase em inglês “and a catch” remete os leitores ao website de John H. McDonald como se tivesse refutado o conceito de complexidade irredutível de Behe, mostrando que uma ratoeira de “complexidade redutível” ainda sim funciona. De um cientista sério [e o que significa isso?] e de uma publicação científica como a Nature, era de se esperar que o contraponto de Behe aparecesse. Você vai perder o seu tempo, e não vai achar a réplica de Behe. Quando a questão é Darwin, é tutti cosa nostra, capice? Quem diria, uma revista do porte da Nature em descompasso com a ética científica. Traduzindo em graúdos: desonestidade acadêmica.

Você encontra a réplica de Behe a Mcdonald aqui.

"Os cenários darwinistas, seja na construção de ratoeiras ou sistemas bioquímicos, são muito fáceis de acreditar se nós não quisermos ou não formos capazes de escrutinizar os mínimos detalhes, ou pedir por evidência experimental. Eles nos convidam para admirarmos a inteligência da seleção natural. Mas a inteligência que nós estamos admirando é a nossa.”

Maybe Mario doesn't know Portuguese, in which case he's an idiot for not looking for an English source.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,00:01   

Quote (sparc @ Dec. 15 2008,23:18)
After 1.5 days Mario Lopez finally not-pologizes: It surely wasn't my fault:        
Quote

My apologies to everyone. Thank you, AussieID, for pointing to the source of that last quote. The original blogger on this is found here:

http://pos-darwinista.blogspot.com/

–Mario

Not only that, but the page he links to is in Portuguese. Where's Dave Hawkins when you need him?  :p

A quick Yahoo Babelfish translation shows that Lopez ignored the first part of the article (which accused Nature of plagiarism of all things) and just C&Ped the notes section.  Scroll down to the entry for Dec 10th.

English translation

The Behe quote is clearly identified and discussed in the middle of the article, so there's no doubt Lopez knew exactly what dishonesty he was posting.

Another lying ID shitheel:  So what else is new?

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,00:18   

Barry lies through his teeth:
Quote
Donald, an ID proponent does not care if the groundrules are limited to “natural” explanations.

My reply probably won't see the light of day, so I'd better post it here:
Quote
4

ribczynski

12/16/2008

1:02 am

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Um, Barry — Denyse O’Leary dedicated an entire recent post to a criticism of methodological naturalism.

And as I commented on another thread:
Quote
Over and over, we hear from ID supporters that ID is not about the supernatural. It is amusing to juxtapose these denials with their constant protests against methodological naturalism.

Their mixed message? “ID isn’t about the supernatural, no sir, but it just happens to be really, really, really important to us for science not to rule out the supernatural.”

A couple of questions for the ID supporters on this thread:

1. As I asked Barry earlier in the thread, while we were discussing the fine-tuning argument: Besides God(s), who are the designers you have in mind who are capable of designing and implementing universes???

Nothing to do with the supernatural, no sir.

2. Read this quote from Bill Dembski:
Quote
So long as methodological naturalism sets the ground rules for how the game of science is to be played, intelligent design has no chance of success.

If ID has nothing to do with the supernatural, then why should methodological naturalism be an impediment, much less an insurmountable obstacle?

3. Patrick argues that when Dembski says something that implicates the supernatural, it’s because he has “switched hats”, replacing his scientist hat with his philosopher/theologian hat.

If so, then why would Dembski invoke science so confidently in the following quote?
Quote
Unlike design arguments of the past, the claim that transcendent design pervades the universe is no longer a strictly philosophical or theological claim. It is also a fully scientific claim and follows directly from the complexity-specification criterion…Demonstrating transcendent design in the universe is a scientific inference, not a philosophical pipedream…

Transcendent design. Nothing supernatural here, no sir.

4. While we’re quoting leaders of the ID movement, here’s Phillip Johnson:
Quote
My colleagues and I speak of “theistic realism” — or sometimes, “mere creation” –as the defining concept of our movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology. We avoid the tangled arguments about how or whether to reconcile the Biblical account with the present state of scientific knowledge, because we think these issues can be much more constructively engaged when we have a scientific picture that is not distorted by naturalistic prejudice.

Hmmmm…

5. And Michael Behe:
Quote
Methodological naturalism proves at last nothing more than an artificial restriction on thought, and it will eventually pass. Despite would-be gatekeepers like Pennock, the argument for design is gaining strength with the advance of science and for a simple reason once described by the physicist Percy Bridgman: ‘The scientific method, as far as it is a method, is nothing more than doing one’s mind, no holds barred.’

I see. ID gains strength when scientists refuse to be constrained by methodological naturalism. Nothing supernatural here, no sir.


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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,01:32   

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Barry's posts, it is funny when the first comment on the first post by DonaldM is a slapdown by the blog Tzar

Quote
1

Barry Arrington

12/16/2008

12:28 am

Donald, an ID proponent does not care if the groundrules are limited to “natural” explanations. As we have discussed many times here at UD, (see, e.g., here: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....al-powers/), nothing about life appears to require a supernatural explanation. Accordingly, I am not sure what your point is.


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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,03:43   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 16 2008,09:32)
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Barry's posts, it is funny when the first comment on the first post by DonaldM is a slapdown by the blog Tzar

     
Quote
1

Barry Arrington

12/16/2008

12:28 am

Donald, an ID proponent does not care if the groundrules are limited to “natural” explanations. As we have discussed many times here at UD, (see, e.g., here: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....al-powers/), nothing about life appears to require a supernatural explanation. Accordingly, I am not sure what your point is.

....ok.....

So Palm Reading and Astrology are out?

Dang ....did Behe get that message?


FUCKING BREATHTAKING BARRY!!!

Hey Barry remember Dover??

Oh yeah, where ID really GOT ITS ASS KICKED FOR FUCKING GOOD ......REMEMBER THAT?

Just google "michael behe dover transcript astrology"

Try it dude your whole scheme has been toast for how long now?

From an article summarizing  Kitzmiller v. Dover: Michael Behe's Testimony

   
Quote
… ID posits that animals did not evolve naturally through evolutionary means but were created abruptly by a non-natural, or supernatural, designer. Defendants’ own expert witnesses acknowledged this point. [reference to Behe's testimony saying “implausible that the designer is a natural entity”] …

[snip]

First, defense [pro ID] expert Professor Fuller agreed that ID aspires to “change the ground rules” of science and lead defense expert Professor Behe admitted that his broadened definition of science, which encompasses ID, would also embrace astrology. [transcript reference].



How about Judge Jones' findings Barry?


   
Quote
"The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism" (page 31)


   
Quote
The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." (page 43)


   
Quote

"After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community." (page 64)


Barry when is the NEXT [supernatural] creationist court case?  ....guffaw ...giggle.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,04:03   

Young bFast asks an intelligent question    
Quote
If the line between the natural and the supernatural cannot be vividly defined, how can Science stay on one side of the line.

Answer: By restricting itself to things that can be observed.

But then young bFast crashes and burns:    
Quote
Dawkins suggests that it is scientifically acceptible to consider that an intelligent non-supernatural agent created life on earth, but he refuses to consider himself an IDer. Here in ID-land, if it were established that a non-supernatural intelligent being brought forth life on earth, we would all say, “see, I told yea.”

If it were established that a non-supernatural intelligent being brought forth life on earth, we'd all be IDers.  But to establish that an intelligent being brought forth life on earth, you'd have to have evidence that we can see and measure.  

On again, off again Explanitory Filters that you can't even fit Darwinian evolution into aren't evidence for ID.  Especially when they indicate that God was designed.

Saying that the presence of CSI proves ID isn't evidence for ID, since Darwinian Evolution produces CSI.

Oohing and aahhing over bacterial flagellums isn't evidence for ID.

Credulous crap about the so-called Edge of Evolution isn't evidence for ID.

Nothing that Denyse O'Leary has ever misunderstood is evidence for ID.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,05:22   

Quote
Nothing that Denyse O'Leary has ever misunderstood is evidence for ID


O'Dreary, Dense (n,adj.): Born in America claims to be Canadian but doesn't know the difference. The idiot offspring of the American creationist establishment. Believes she can write.

DO'D here is actual er writing by an American no less. I don't think anyone here needs to be reminded who wrote it.....

Quote



I have been studying the traits and dispositions of the lower animals (so-called), and contrasting them with the traits and dispositions of man.  I find the result humiliating to me.  For it obliges me to renounce my allegiance to the Darwinian theory of the Ascent of Man from the Lower Animals; since it now seems plain to me that the theory ought to be vacated in favor of a new and truer one, this new and truer one to be named the Descent of Man from the Higher Animals.



                       In proceeding toward this unpleasant conclusion I have not guessed or speculated or conjectured, but have used what is com­monly called the scientific method.  That is to say, I have sub­jected every postulate that presented itself to the crucial test of actual experiment, and have adopted it or rejected it according to the result.  Thus I verified and established each step of my course in its turn before advancing to the next.  These experiments were made in the London Zoological Gardens, and covered many months of painstaking and fatiguing work.



        Before particularizing any of the experiments, I wish to state one or two things which seem to more properly belong in this place than further along.  This, in the interest of clearness.  The massed experiments established to my satisfaction certain gener­alizations, to wit:



1.        That the human race is of one distinct species.  It exhibits slight variations (in color, stature, mental caliber, and so on) due to climate, environment, and so forth; but it is a species by itself, and not to be confounded with any other.



2.        That the quadrupeds are a distinct family, also.  This fam­ily exhibits variations (in color, size, food preferences, and so on; but it is a family by itself).



3.        That the other families (the birds, the fishes, the insects, the reptiles, etc.) are more or less distinct, also.  They are in the procession.  They are links in the chain which stretches down from the higher animals to man at the bottom.



                       Some of my experiments were quite curious.  In the course of my reading I had come across a case where, many years ago, some hunters on our Great Plains organized a buffalo hunt for the entertainment of an English earl.  They had charming sport.  They killed seventy-two of those great animals; and ate part of one of them and left the seventy-one to rot.  In order to determine the differ­ence between an anaconda and an earl (if any) I caused seven young calves to be turned into the anacondas cage.  The grateful reptile immediately crushed one of them and swallowed it, then lay back satisfied.  It showed no further interest in the calves, and no disposition to harm them.  I tried this experiment with other anacondas; always with the same result.  The fact stood proven that the difference between an earl and an anaconda is that the earl is cruel and the anaconda isnt; and that the earl wantonly destroys what he has no use for, but the anaconda doesnt.  This seemed to suggest that the anaconda was not descended from the earl.  It also seemed to suggest that the earl was descended from the anaconda, and had lost a good deal in the transition.



I was aware that many men who have accumulated more millions of money than they can ever use have shown a rabid hunger for more, and have not scrupled to cheat the ignorant and the helpless out of their poor servings in order to partially appease that appetite.  I furnished a hundred different kinds of wild and tame animals the opportunity to accumulate vast stores of food, but none of them would do it.  The squirrels and bees and certain birds made accumulations, but stopped when they had gathered a winter s supply, and could not be persuaded to add to it either honestly or by chicane.  In order to bolster up a tottering reputa­tion the ant pretended to store up supplies, but I was not de­ceived.  I know the ant.  These experiments convinced me that there is this difference between man and the higher animals: he is avaricious and miserly; they are not.



       In the course of my experiments I convinced myself that among the animals man is the only one that harbors insults and injuries, broods over them, waits till a chance offers, then takes revenge.  The passion of revenge is unknown to the higher animals.



Roosters keep harems, but it is by consent of their concu­bines; therefore no wrong is done.  Men keep harems but it is by brute force, privileged by atrocious laws which the other sex were allowed no hand in making.  In this matter man occupies a far lower place than the rooster.



Cats are loose in their morals, but not consciously so.  Man, in his descent from the cat, has brought the cats looseness with him but has left the unconsciousness behind (the saving grace which excuses the cat).  The cat is innocent, man is not.



Indecency, vulgarity, obscenity (these are strictly confined to man); he invented them.  Among the higher animals there is no trace of them.  They hide nothing; they are not ashamed. Man, with his soiled mind, covers himself.  He will not even enter a drawing room with his breast and back naked, so alive are he and his mates to indecent suggestion.  Man is The Animal that Laughs. But so does the monkey, as Mr. Darwin pointed out; and so does the Australian bird that is called the laughing jackass.  No!  Man is the Animal that Blushes.  He is the only one that does itor has occasion to.



At the head of this article we see how  three monks were burnt to death a few days ago, and a prior put to death with atrocious cruelty.  Do we inquire into the details?  No; or we should find out that the prior was subjected to unprintable muti­lations.  Man (when he is a North American Indian) gouges out his prisoners eyes; when he is King John, with a nephew to render untroublesome, he uses a red-hot iron; when he is a reli­gious zealot dealing with heretics in the Middle Ages, he skins his captive alive and scatters salt on his back; in the first Richards time he shuts up a multitude of Jew families in a tower and sets fire to it; in Columbuss time he captures a family of Spanish Jews and (but that is not printable; in our day in England a man is fined ten shillings for beating his mother nearly to death with a chair, and another man is fined forty shillings for having four pheasant eggs in his possession without being able to satisfacto­rily explain how he got them). Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel.  He is the only one that inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it.  It is a trait that is not known to the higher animals.  The cat plays with the frightened mouse; but she has this excuse, that she does not know that the mouse is suffering.  The cat is moderate (unhumanly moderate: she only scares the mouse, she does not hurt it; she doesnt dig out its eyes, or tear off its skin, or drive splinters under its nails) man-fashion; when she is done playing with it she makes a sudden meal of it and puts it out of its trouble.  Man is  the Cruel Animal.  He is alone in that distinction.



The higher animals engage in individual fights, but never in organized masses.  Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War.  He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and with calm pulse to exterminate his kind.  He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out, as the Hessians did in our Revolu­tion, and as the boyish Prince Napoleon did in the Zulu war, and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.



Man is the only animal that robs his helpless fellow of his countrytakes possession of it and drives him out of it or destroys him.  Man has done this in all the ages.  There is not an acre of ground on the globe that is in possession of its rightful owner, or that has not been taken away from owner after owner, cycle after cycle, by force and bloodshed.



Man is the only Slave.  And he is the only animal who en­slaves.  He has always been a slave in one form or another, and has always held other slaves in bondage under him in one way or another.  In our day he is always some mans slave for wages, and does that mans work; and this slave has other slaves under him for minor wages, and they do his work.  The higher animals are the only ones who exclusively do their own work and provide their own living.



Man is the only Patriot.  He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy ex­pense to grab slices of other peoples countries, and keep them from grabbing slices of his.  And in the intervals between cam­paigns, he washes the blood off his hands and works for the universal brotherhood of man, with his mouth.



Man is the Religious Animal.  He is the only Religious Ani­mal.  He is the only animal that has the True Religion, several of them.  He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself, and cuts his throat if his theology isnt straight.  He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brothers path to happiness and heaven.  He was at it in the time of the Caesars, he was at it in Mahomets time, he was at it in the time of the Inquisition, he was at it in France a couple of cen­turies, he was at it in England in Marys day, he has been at it ever since he first saw the light, he is at it today in Crete (as per the telegrams quoted above) he will be at it somewhere else tomor­row.  The higher animals have no religion.  And we are told that they are going to be left out, in the Hereafter.  I wonder why?  It seems questionable taste.



Man is the Reasoning Animal.  Such is the claim.  I think it is open to dispute.  Indeed, my experiments have proven to me that he is the Unreasoning Animal.  Note his history, as sketched above.  It seems plain to me that whatever he is he is not a reasoning animal.  His record is the fantastic record of a maniac.  I consider that the strongest count against his intelligence is the fact that with that record back of him he blandly sets himself up as the head animal of the lot: whereas by his own standards he is the bottom one.  





           In truth, man is incurably foolish.  Simple things which the other animals easily learn, he is incapable of learning.  Among my experiments was this.  In an hour I taught a cat and a dog to be friends.  I put them in a cage.  In another hour I taught them to be friends with a rabbit.  In the course of two days I was able to add a fox, a goose, a squirrel and some doves.  Finally a monkey.  They lived together in peace; even affectionately.





           Next, in another cage I confined an Irish Catholic from Tipperary, and as soon as he seemed tame I added a Scotch Presbyterian from Aberdeen.  Next a Turk from Constantinople; a Greek Christian from Crete; an Armenian; a Methodist from the wilds of Arkansas; a Buddhist from China; a Brahman from Benares. Finally, a Salvation Army Colonel from Wapping.  Then I stayed away two whole days.  When I came back to note results, the cage of Higher Animals was all right, but in the other there was but a chaos of gory odds and ends of turbans and fezzes and plaids and bones and fleshnot a specimen left alive.  These Reasoning Animals had disagreed on a theological detail and carried the matter to a Higher Court.



           One is obliged to concede that in true loftiness of character, Man cannot claim to approach even the meanest of the Higher Animals.  It is plain that he is constitutionally incapable of ap­proaching that altitude; that he is constitutionally afflicted with a Defect which must make such approach forever impossible, for it is manifest that this defect is permanent in him, indestructible, ineradicable.





           I find this Defect to be the Moral Sense.  He is the only animal that has it.  It is the secret of his degradation.  It is the quality which enables him to do wrong.  It has no other office.  It is in capable of performing any other function.  It could never hate been intended to perform any other.  Without it, man could do no wrong.  He would rise at once to the level of the Higher Animals.



           Since the Moral Sense has but the one office, the one capacity (to enable man to do wrong) it is plainly without value to him.  It is as valueless to him as is disease.  In fact, it manifestly is a disease.  Rabies is bad, but it is not so bad as this disease.  Rabies enables a man to do a thing, which he could not do when in a healthy state: kill his neighbor with a poisonous bite.  NC) one is the better man for having rabies: The Moral Sense enables a man to do wrong.  It enables him to do wrong in a thousand ways.  Rabies is an innocent disease, compared to the Moral Sense.  No one, then, can be the better man for having the Moral Sense.  What now, do we find the Primal Curse to have been?  Plainly what it was in the beginning: the infliction upon man of the Moral Sense; the ability to distinguish good from evil; and with it, necessarily, the ability to do evil; for there can be no evil act without the presence of consciousness of it in the doer of it.



     And so I find that we have descended and degenerated, from some far ancestor (some microscopic atom wandering at its pleasure between the mighty horizons of a drop of water perchance) insect by insect, animal by animal, reptile by reptile, down the long highway of smirch less innocence, till we have reached the bottom stage of development (namable as the Human Being).  Below us, nothing.



--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Laminar_



Posts: 14
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,05:47   

Just for the record - I posted this on this UD discussion:
Link to discussion



Quote



27

Laminar

12/14/2008

12:35 pm

Patrick,

Without a definition of Information Gill can easily be accused of playing word games as well.

I could start making statements about how aeroplanes are unable to fly and you might point out that I was crazy but then I can turn around and say - but the definition of aeroplane I am using is ‘a machine that is incapable of flight’.

Gill has made a series of statements about the nature of information and has made claims regarding a new ‘Fundamental conservation law’ that relates to ‘Information’. I think Rib is just seeking to establish exactly what the strict definition of Information is in this context. Gil hasn’t provided it and without it it is impossible to assess these claims.

Given that the definition of Information provided by Shannons Information theory doesn’t require ‘information’ to have any meaningful content (i.e the ‘information’ contained in a message can be random) It would appear that Gil is not using the word in the Information Theory sense, so I think it is reasonable to ask what other definition is being used


No moderation required

Then I went to post this:
Quote


49

Laminar

12/16/2008

5:08 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Well I had a few things to say following up on my request for clarification on the word ‘Information’ but unfortunately time has run away with me and I’m off for an extended Christmas break away from fast and easy broadband connections so, for the Christians amongst us, have a happy Christmas, and for the non Christians, enjoy the annual retail festival ;)


So I felt I had to follow up with  this:
Quote


50

Laminar

12/16/2008

5:09 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

And I notice that I have now been put on moderation - was my earlier comment really that inflammatory?


hmmmmm...

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,06:13   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Dec. 15 2008,23:27)
I am looking forward to more of this Donald.

Donald M sounds a lot like this guy, also named Donald M. He is a sociologist.  Pretty sciency, for sure...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,06:29   

Somebody makes the mistake of asking KF a simple question, almost as if they are expecting a simple answer:
   
Quote
Aplogies if this has been asked before, but do you have a list of objects and the FSCI contained within them? I’d be interested to see how the figures work out.

Do onions have alot of FSCI due to their unusual genonme for example? More then carrots?

Kariosfocus:
   
Quote
I first note that it is to some extent misdirected. For, we are not interested in whether the onion’s cells [including DNA, enzymes etc] show more evidence of FSCI than the onion’s or the converse. Instead, the material point is that BOTH are well beyond the reasonable threshold for being reached by chance forces on the gamut of the observed universe across any reasonable estimate of its lifespan.

...
   
Quote
Both carrots and onions would be well beyond that threshold, and it is reasonable to deduce that the basic genome is explained by intelligence not chance.

...    
Quote
Even the difference between a carrot and an onion would be well beyond the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold. We would reasonably infer that that difference is due to directed contingency, by whatever mechanisms such a designer would use.

So that's a "no, I cannot say" then.

It's funny how KF is able to put a figure for the FSCI on text which is nice and easy to manipulate mathmatically:
 
Quote
or instance post no 100 is an apparent message that is responsive to the context of this thread, and has in it 403 ASCII characters. 128^403 ~1.61 * 10^849, the number of cells in the config space for that length of text. I comfortably infer that this is message not lucky noise, per FSCI, as 1000 bits specifies about 10^301 states.

But when asked about organic lifeforms he's reduced to handwaving
 
Quote
Instead, the material point is that BOTH are well beyond the reasonable threshold for being reached by chance forces on the gamut of the observed universe across any reasonable estimate of its lifespan.

I wonder, how does he know that "BOTH are well beyond the reasonable threshold for being reached by chance forces" if he cannot determine the value for FSCI in them. How does he know? :)
Link

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,06:39   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Dec. 16 2008,00:27)
I like Donald.  He's bringing that sweet crunchy Tard, brand new flavors for your ears.

The small touches best reveal his artistry:
         
Quote
...the naturalistic worldview of science takes precedent over the theistic worldview of anyone who purports that a supernatural creator had something to do with bringing about the existence of life on earth.

"Anyone who purports that a...."  Mmmmm. Love those little morsels of "big" words used wrong*.
         
Quote
I wonder what Branch and Scott might say about a Bill to promote the teaching of philosophical naturalism...

They can say anything they want about a Bill. I'm here to do my part.
       
Quote
...in the disguise of science in the classroom?

"In the disguise of science." That's so cute!
       
Quote
...its an epistomological assumption...

Gotta get that 'postrophe in there, Donald, if you're gonna sell "epistemological." (Too much naturalism in the English classroom.)

*ironic humor!

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,07:39   

The brain is not Irreducibly Complex, so it was designed.

Quote
TCS: So, half of the brain is removed, and the individual maintains their personality and intellectual abilities. To me, this supports an ID perspective, because from a naturalistic evolutionary perspective, there would be no need to maintain the personality and intellect.


To test this hypothesis, TCS proposes a scientific test.

Quote
TCS: Try taking your CPU out of your computer, cutting it in half, and putting half of it back in. The complexity of the mind and the brain points to design at a level that is beyond human technological sophistication.

MikeKratch: As it happens, the CPU in my PC is quad core. In fact, it’s two dual core CPU’s pasted together (q6600). So cutting it in half (if done carefully!) would not noticably affect it’s performance in most everyday tasks!  

Hmm. That didn't match expectations. Well, we learn from our experiments and adjust our expectations accordingly. Or do we?

 
Quote
TCS: Go ahead and try to do that as carefully as you can. I am eagerly awaiting the results

MikeKratch: I imagine if it was done with the same level of preperation and understanding as when the operation is performed on human brains it would be fine.

After all, I don’t expect you to perform a hemispherectomie before you can use it in a argument!

TCS will now remove half his brain to prove the point.



Quote
TCS: It is also interesting to note that these effects are virtually undetectable after a short period of time.

MikeKratch: So, let me get this straight, the human brain was designed to have chunks removed with little to no ill effect? Is that what you are saying?

This is a new one on me. One would have thought if that was the case then a more useful “design” would be to ensure the spine does not degenerate, or a better knee, those things would help everybody wherease a design feature of the brain that allowed chunks to go missing would only affect a tiny percentage of all people who ever lived.

Mike, Mike! If the brain is Irreducibly Complex, it's design. If the brain is not Irreducibly Complex, it's design. You can't possibly win an argument with TCS—even with one of his brain hemispheres removed.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,08:02   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 16 2008,06:13)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Dec. 15 2008,23:27)
I am looking forward to more of this Donald.

Donald M sounds a lot like this guy, also named Donald M. He is a sociologist.  Pretty sciency, for sure...

You are almost certainly correct.  Donald McIntosh is going to provide plenty of entertainment for us.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,08:32   

Why didn't somebody tell me?!
Quote
All that’s needed from a Darwinian perspective is simply the ability to procreate. There is no need to maintain the personality and the intellect.
And to think of the countless hours I spent on dates making small talk...

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,09:19   

Quote (dogdidit @ Dec. 16 2008,16:32)
Why didn't somebody tell me?!
 
Quote
All that’s needed from a Darwinian perspective is simply the ability to procreate. There is no need to maintain the personality and the intellect.
And to think of the countless hours I spent on dates making small talk...

Where as if you were just a creationist you could have saved some time by ..making snake talk

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
sparc



Posts: 2089
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,11:38   

Since my question to KF, Jerry et al. didn't appear at UD:
Did Dembski or Behe ever use the term FCSI?
I guess it was KF who coined it.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,12:34   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Dec. 16 2008,04:29)

Kairosfocus:
Quote
or instance post no 100 is an apparent message that is responsive to the context of this thread, and has in it 403 ASCII characters. 128^403 ~1.61 * 10^849, the number of cells in the config space for that length of text. I comfortably infer that this is message not lucky noise, per FSCI, as 1000 bits specifies about 10^301 states.


Amusing that he bothers to compute the "number of cells in the config space" when all he has to do is compute the number of bits in the message (403 * 7) and compare to 1000.

If it were Dembski, I'd say he was trying to make it look mathier.  With KF, I think it's just dumbth.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,13:15   

I'm behind, I know.

But the whole "brain as radio" analogy that gets trotted out in support of dualism, well, it's stupid.

Some good arguments made to that effect. But what's always struck me as particularly stupid is that the analogy doesn't take into account the huge complexity asymmetry between the radio receiver and the whole complex of systems required to generate not only the signal received, but the content of the transmission, whatever it is.

The radio is simple; the signal's origin, generation, and propogation are complex.

Compare this with the brain, which is only a chunk of the most densely interconnected matter known anywhere in the universe. For the analogy to make any sense to me, you have to posit a signal for my brain-radio to be receiving. And, unless the brain is just radically over-designed, the process(es) required to generate that signal, and the signal itself, are going to need to be vastly more complex than the most complex thing we know about.

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The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,13:25   

Quote (sparc @ Dec. 16 2008,11:38)
Since my question to KF, Jerry et al. didn't appear at UD:
Did Dembski or Behe ever use the term FCSI?
I guess it was KF who coined it.

KairosFocus: the Gottfried Leibniz of Information Theory.  :D

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,13:33   

Quote
But the whole "brain as radio" analogy that gets trotted out in support of dualism, well, it's stupid.


The more you examine, in detail, the effects of localized brain damage, the stupider it gets.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,15:32   

If I didn't know better, I would say that Willie was a troll!

From the New Donald Post, a comment:  

William Wallace  12/16/2008  1:44 pm

"The problem with Dawkins et al is that if God did announce his existence naturally, such that, for example, every flower sang praises to him, their version of “science” is incapable of detecting it.

How could it?"

Willie - If Dembski could only see you now!  He'd say, in his best Dr. Dr.  Dembski voice: : You Knucklehead!  Ixnay on the odGay!  

And i can also hear Lenny Flank saying " they can't help but always open their mouth and give a shout out to God".


UD Link to Dumb Stuff

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Rrr



Posts: 146
Joined: Nov. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,15:43   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Dec. 16 2008,13:33)
Quote
But the whole "brain as radio" analogy that gets trotted out in support of dualism, well, it's stupid.


The more you examine, in detail, the effects of localized brain damage, the stupider it gets.

What, the Brian? I'm late for bed probably ...  :p

  
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,15:49   

Quote (J-Dog @ Dec. 16 2008,15:32)
Ixnay on the odGay!

Don't most creationists want to ixnay all the gays, not just the odd ones?

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,15:52   

There's always Brain's "Diseases of the Nervous System," on the same shelf as the Boring "History of Experimental Psychology" and Horney's "Self Analysis."

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Freelurker



Posts: 82
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,16:49   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 15 2008,17:33)
             
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Dec. 15 2008,13:08)
This seems to be the way of the new 'kinder, gentler' UD.  Under the old system DaveTard at least had the honesty to tell people when he was removing their posts or hitting the bannination button.  

These new slimy asshats now like to make selective posts (i.e. the embarrassing ones they can't address) just disappear with no mention.  Of course they no longer ban people at the new 'kinder, gentler' UD either.  They just put undesirable folks' posts in the category of 'awaiting  moderation for eternity'.


They want to maintain the illusion of openness at UD, which requires letting at least some critical comments through while quietly blocking the rest.  The problem is that most of the critical comments are well-aimed, and letting any of them through is enough to make the UDers look like idiots.

Slimy asshats, indeed. They let this comment of mine through:      
Quote
mynym ... while engineers who tend to be IDists and creationists generally have had something to do with the technology by which scientia/knowledge advances.

Do you claim that engineers tend to be IDists and creationists? If so, can you back that up?

And they let mynym reply:      
Quote
Do you claim that engineers tend to be IDists and creationists? If so, can you back that up?

I could point out that even Darwinists have noticed: “…the Salem Hypothesis states that creationists with formal educations are more likely to be engineers than they are to be other kinds of scientists. This hypothesis is supported primarily by anecdotal evidence: a good number of creationists who post to talk.origins claim to be engineers, and creationist organizations seem to be disproportionately populated by engineers. Why engineers would be more prone to creationism than other scientists is a good question.”

But is it so hard to figure out why that would be so given that they work with design problems in the real world every day instead of engaging in natural theology of a sort based on prissy or feminized Christianity?

E.g.: “Why would God make a panda’s thumb like this? It is settled then, Nature selected it and designed all the millions of organisms that exist.”

But they didn't let anyone see my rejoinder:      
Quote
mynym "the Salem Hypothesis states that creationists with formal educations are more likely to be engineers …”

But that’s not what you are claiming; you are claiming that engineers tend to be creationists.

Do you have any data to indicate that most engineers do not accept the theory of evolution? I expect that most engineers do accept it, but I don’t have any data on that either, right now.

The set of engineers who show up for ID/Creationism discussions is certainly not a representative sample of the general population of engineers. Although more than a few ID critics are engineers, most of the people who bother to confront ID/Creationism are scientists. The simple reason for this is that ID/Creationists are attacking science, not engineering (at least for now.)

    But is it so hard to figure out why that would be so given that they work with design problems in the real world every day …

OK, now you are describing why you think that engineers should support ID or Creationism. But, as IDists commonly do, you are equivocating between the meaning of “design” in ID and the meaning of “design” in engineering.

The core activity of ID is design detection, wherein some pattern is analyzed and then tagged as being attributable to chance, necessity, necessity, or design (purposefullness.) ID does not produce any patterns; it takes a pattern as an input and then categorizes the pattern. Engineering, of course, is all about producing patterns. In fact, in engineering a design is a pattern. To produce a design is to produce a pattern. During engineering design, we produce a pattern of an invented system, a pattern that describes a system’s parts and describes how those parts will work together. During engineering analysis, we examine some existing thing and then produce a pattern that serves as a model of that thing.

As you can see, IDists don’t do what engineers do, and engineers don’t do what IDists do.

I'm done commenting over there; the new regime is definitely worse than the previous one.

--------------
Invoking intelligent design in science is like invoking gremlins in engineering. [after Mark Isaak.]
All models are wrong, some models are useful. - George E. P. Box

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,17:11   

Quote (J-Dog @ Dec. 16 2008,15:32)
If I didn't know better, I would say that Willie was a troll!

Wee Willie is definitely a troll, in the Brothers Grimm vein...

But his words    
Quote
The problem with Dawkins et al is that if God did announce his existence naturally, such that, for example, every flower sang praises to him, their version of “science” is incapable of detecting it.
are priceless.

Is his "science" capable of detecting it? Where is this published? Why hasn't he applied to the Templeton Foundation?  This sounds like it is prime Templetonesque research!

Or is it possible that Wee Willie is just hearing voices that the flowers are broadcasting to the radio that is his brain? What's the frequency, Willie?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,17:11   

I think they are realising that if they let the light in just a little bit it still makes them look like fools as even a little, moderated light still exposes their often idiotic and undefendable positions. Exposing the shallowness of their reading and thinking by input from outside their little circle jerk they got going on just makes them look fools on a daily basis. As documented here ;)

How long till UncommonDescent goes "comments off" like almost every other ID blog out there.

Ever wonder why http://www.evolutionnews.org/ is read only Barry? I think you are finding out why.

Davescot appeared to have the right idea, at least as far as protecting the public image of ID on UD goes.  Let the harmless lunatics like BA77 and KF witter on, shielded from rational thought. Keep everybody else on a tight leash, lots of bannations. Allow a token evilutionist or two to make their case. As the Dr Dr never really engaged in dialogue with his critics, even on his own blog, it mattered not.

They bring DaveScot back with his old rules (hi Dave!) 20/1
They just turn comments off 15/1
The close the whole thing down 100/1
Barry has a nervous breakdown 10/1

I don't think they will close it down as it might sell odd book or two still. And at this point it's basically about $$$.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,18:30   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 16 2008,17:11)
Or is it possible that Wee Willie is just hearing voices that the flowers are broadcasting to the radio that is his brain? What's the frequency, Willie?

Willie doesn’t need a frequency since it’s transmitted with an infinite wavelength you see. Dr. Dr. told him so.
And then Willie flat-lined-----

--------------
Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2008,19:03   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Dec. 17 2008,10:11)
I think they are realising that if they let the light in just a little bit it still makes them look like fools as even a little, moderated light still exposes their often idiotic and undefendable positions. Exposing the shallowness of their reading and thinking by input from outside their little circle jerk they got going on just makes them look fools on a daily basis. As documented here ;)

How long till UncommonDescent goes "comments off" like almost every other ID blog out there.

Ever wonder why http://www.evolutionnews.org/ is read only Barry? I think you are finding out why.

Davescot appeared to have the right idea, at least as far as protecting the public image of ID on UD goes.  Let the harmless lunatics like BA77 and KF witter on, shielded from rational thought. Keep everybody else on a tight leash, lots of bannations. Allow a token evilutionist or two to make their case. As the Dr Dr never really engaged in dialogue with his critics, even on his own blog, it mattered not.

They bring DaveScot back with his old rules (hi Dave!) 20/1
They just turn comments off 15/1
The close the whole thing down 100/1
Barry has a nervous breakdown 10/1

I don't think they will close it down as it might sell odd book or two still. And at this point it's basically about $$$.

1/1 As the interesting contributors get banned, interest in UD will disappear and we'll be back to bad Mother jokes.

  
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