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ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2010,14:54   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 06 2010,18:06)
 
Quote (midwifetoad @ May 06 2010,15:24)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi....1188021

A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal Genome

I looked, and I looked, but no Dembski, Behe, Wells or  other IDer could I find.  No doubt, the Evil Darwinist Truth, Not Fantasy Cabal is still in action.

However, I did find this link too, and I see that some of your ancestors got lucky...

Some Homos Got Lucky

No offense J-Dog, but I don't understand the attraction to Neandertal chicks.
To me they are loud and obnoxious, they smell bad.  Not a brain in their head.

Take this one for instance... Please!

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2010,19:05   

How to challenge scientific findings and not be thought a quack.

The important part:



Quote
The research, which was supported by NASA, the National Science Foundation and the Agouron Institute, counters previous work of co-author Roger Summons, an EAPS professor of geobiology, who first proposed in 1999 that 2-methylhopanoids could be a biomarker for cyanobacteria. That work was called into question in 2007 when researchers in the lab of co-author Dianne K. Newman, the John and Dorothy Wilson Professor of Biology and Geobiology, in collaboration with Alex Sessions at the California Institute of Technology, discovered a type of bacterium that doesn’t produce oxygen but does produce 2-methylhopanoids.

To determine whether this was a chance finding or whether different kinds of bacteria produce 2-methylhopanoids, Summons, Newman, Sessions and several postdoctoral researchers joined forces to figure out which genes and proteins are involved in making the lipids. Knowing this gene, the researchers could then search the genome databases for other bacteria that also produce these molecules. They could also learn more about the purpose of the molecules, such as whether they emerged in response to some sort of environmental stress billions of years ago.


The research is published in PNAS and sounds like an excellent example of how to test a hypothesis. Unfortunately, I don't have access ???

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,10:51   

Well, guys, I'm going to plug myself here. For my Reference Sources in the Sciences class I had to create a page of online resources. Unlike everyone else, who chose a specialty, I wanted to implement science communication techniques and so I created a transdiciplinary introductory science page.

I chose online tutorials that were interactive, attractive, and had clear language. Actually, for the assignment I eliminated some vetted links that I would like to incorporate later, or in another guide. It's amazing to see what scientists, educators, and designers are doing to bring science to the public.

Here it is, my pride and joy: Concepts, Scales, and Measures in Science

I am finished with classes, have earned my Master's (just need to get the grades), and just submitted my first paper for peer review. :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,12:24   

Quote (Kristine @ May 12 2010,08:51)
Well, guys, I'm going to plug myself here. For my Reference Sources in the Sciences class I had to create a page of online resources. Unlike everyone else, who chose a specialty, I wanted to implement science communication techniques and so I created a transdiciplinary introductory science page.

I chose online tutorials that were interactive, attractive, and had clear language. Actually, for the assignment I eliminated some vetted links that I would like to incorporate later, or in another guide. It's amazing to see what scientists, educators, and designers are doing to bring science to the public.

Here it is, my pride and joy: Concepts, Scales, and Measures in Science

I am finished with classes, have earned my Master's (just need to get the grades), and just submitted my first paper for peer review. :)

That's terrific, Kristine.  Extra points for including "Powers Of Ten".

I think the section on "Ask Me Services" is incomplete without "Ask A Bitter, Frustrated Creationist With Two Doctorates Who Can't Get a Real Position And Is Stuck In A Backwoods Bible School".

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,12:37   

Quote (Kristine @ May 12 2010,10:51)

Quote
Well, guys, I'm going to plug myself here. For my Reference Sources in the Sciences class I had to create a page of online resources. Unlike everyone else, who chose a specialty, I wanted to implement science communication techniques and so I created a transdiciplinary introductory science page.

I chose online tutorials that were interactive, attractive, and had clear language. Actually, for the assignment I eliminated some vetted links that I would like to incorporate later, or in another guide. It's amazing to see what scientists, educators, and designers are doing to bring science to the public.

Here it is, my pride and joy: Concepts, Scales, and Measures in Science

I am finished with classes, have earned my Master's (just need to get the grades), and just submitted my first paper for peer review. :)


Congrats Kristine! Nicely done!

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,13:45   

Quote (Kristine @ May 12 2010,08:51)
I am finished with classes, have earned my Master's (just need to get the grades), and just submitted my first paper for peer review. :)

Congratulation. Shimmy on!

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,18:37   

Quote (Kristine @ May 12 2010,11:51)
Well, guys, I'm going to plug myself here. For my Reference Sources in the Sciences class I had to create a page of online resources. Unlike everyone else, who chose a specialty, I wanted to implement science communication techniques and so I created a transdiciplinary introductory science page.

I chose online tutorials that were interactive, attractive, and had clear language. Actually, for the assignment I eliminated some vetted links that I would like to incorporate later, or in another guide. It's amazing to see what scientists, educators, and designers are doing to bring science to the public.

Here it is, my pride and joy: Concepts, Scales, and Measures in Science

I am finished with classes, have earned my Master's (just need to get the grades), and just submitted my first paper for peer review. :)

Congratulations!

May I recommend to you the Molecular Workbench program
http://mw.concord.org/modeler/

and Sodaplay
http://sodaplay.com/

in the area of interactive science education?

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,18:45   

Thank you all! :)

Quote (JohnW @ May 12 2010,12:24)

That's terrific, Kristine.  Extra points for including "Powers Of Ten".


I love that film - in which science, art, music, design, and wonder combine. I was so thrilled to find it again.

Man, if anyone can tell me where to find old science films on the web, let me know! We saw these strange, and incredibly funny, films from the 1950s in chemistry and physics class, and I could not tell you who produced them, but I remember the guy in the Bozo the Clown hair who had a creative way of saying "solution," and this weird, really cool and mind-bending physics film about special relativity, featuring The Professor and His Assistant.

Quote (JohnW @ May 12 2010,12:24)
I think the section on "Ask Me Services" is incomplete without "Ask A Bitter, Frustrated Creationist With Two Doctorates Who Can't Get a Real Position And Is Stuck In A Backwoods Bible School".


How about a link called "To Behe or not to Behe"? :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,18:50   

Quote (dvunkannon @ May 12 2010,18:37)
Quote (Kristine @ May 12 2010,11:51)
Well, guys, I'm going to plug myself here. For my Reference Sources in the Sciences class I had to create a page of online resources. Unlike everyone else, who chose a specialty, I wanted to implement science communication techniques and so I created a transdiciplinary introductory science page.

I chose online tutorials that were interactive, attractive, and had clear language. Actually, for the assignment I eliminated some vetted links that I would like to incorporate later, or in another guide. It's amazing to see what scientists, educators, and designers are doing to bring science to the public.

Here it is, my pride and joy: Concepts, Scales, and Measures in Science

I am finished with classes, have earned my Master's (just need to get the grades), and just submitted my first paper for peer review. :)

Congratulations!

May I recommend to you the Molecular Workbench program
http://mw.concord.org/modeler/

and Sodaplay
http://sodaplay.com/

in the area of interactive science education?

These are wild! Thank you.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2010,23:34   

Quote (Kristine @ May 12 2010,16:45)
Thank you all! :)

 
Man, if anyone can tell me where to find old science films on the web, let me know!

It's not old, but it's fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JdWlSF195Y


Congratulations, Kristine.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2010,03:54   

A formal test of the theory of universal common ancestry

Douglas L. Theobald

Nature 465: 219–222
doi:10.1038/nature09014
 
Quote
In the conclusion of On the Origin of Species, Darwin proposed that “all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form”. This theory of UCA—the proposition that all extant life is genetically related—is perhaps the most fundamental premise of modern evolutionary theory, providing a unifying foundation for all life sciences. UCA is now supported by a wealth of evidence from many independent sources, including: (1) the agreement between phylogeny and biogeography; (2) the correspondence between phylogeny and the palaeontological record; (3) the existence of numerous predicted transitional fossils; (4) the hierarchical classification of morphological characteristics; (5) the marked similarities of biological structures with different functions (that is, homologies); and (6) the congruence of morphological and molecular phylogenies. Although the consilience of these classic arguments provides strong evidence for the common ancestry of higher taxa such as the chordates or metazoans, none expressly address questions such as whether bacteria, yeast and humans are all genetically related. However, the ‘universal’ in universal common ancestry is primarily supported by two further lines of evidence: various key commonalities at the molecular level (including fundamental biological polymers, nucleic acid genetic material, l-amino acids, and core metabolism) and the near universality of the genetic code. Notably, these two traditional arguments for UCA are largely qualitative, and typical presentations of the evidence do not assess quantitative measures of support for competing hypotheses, such as the probability of evolution from multiple, independent ancestors.
The inference from biological similarities to evolutionary homology is a feature shared by several of the lines of evidence for common ancestry. For instance, it is widely assumed that high sequence resemblance, often gauged by an E value from a BLAST search, indicates genetic kinship. However, a small E value directly demonstrates only that two biological sequences are more similar than would be expected by chance. [...] Sequence similarity is an empirical observation, whereas the conclusion of homology is a hypothesis proposed to explain the similarity. Statistically significant sequence similarity can arise from factors other than common ancestry, such as convergent evolution due to selection, structural constraints on sequence identity, mutation bias, chance, or artefact manufacture. For these reasons, a sceptic who rejects the common ancestry of all life might nevertheless accept that universally conserved proteins have similar sequences and are ‘homologous’ in the original pre-Darwinian sense of the term (homology here being similarity of structure due to “fidelity to archetype”). Consequently, it would be advantageous to have a method that is able to objectively quantify the support from sequence data for common-ancestry versus competing multiple-ancestry hypotheses.
Here I report tests of the theory of UCA using model selection theory, without assuming that sequence similarity indicates a genealogical relationship. [...]
The theory of UCA allows for the possibility of multiple independent origins of life. If life began multiple times, UCA requires a ‘bottleneck’ in evolution in which descendants of only one of the independent origins have survived exclusively until the present (and the rest have become extinct), or, multiple populations with independent, separate origins convergently gained the ability to exchange essential genetic material (in effect, to become one species). All of the models examined here are compatible with multiple origins in both the above schemes, and therefore the tests reported here are designed to discriminate specifically between UCA and multiple ancestry, rather than between single and multiple origins of life. Furthermore, UCA does not demand that the last universal common ancestor was a single organism, in accord with the traditional evolutionary view that common ancestors of species are groups, not individuals. Rather, the last universal common ancestor may have comprised a population of organisms with different genotypes that lived in different places at different times.
The data set consists of a subset of the protein alignment data from ref. 27, containing 23 universally conserved proteins for 12 taxa from all three domains of life, including nine proteins thought to have been horizontally transferred early in evolution. The conserved proteins in this data set were identified based on significant sequence similarity using BLAST searches, and they have consequently been postulated to be orthologues. The first class of models I considered (presented in Table 1 and Fig. 1) constrains all the universally conserved proteins in a given set of taxa to evolve by the same tree, and hence these models do not account for possible horizontal gene transfer (HGT) or symbiotic fusion events during the evolution of the three domains of life. Hereafter I refer to this set of models as ‘class I’. The class I model ABE, representing universal common ancestry of all taxa in the three domains of life and shown in Fig. 1a, can be considered to represent the classic three-domain ‘tree of life’ model of evolution.
Among the class I models, all criteria select the UCA tree by an extremely large margin (score differences ranging from 6,569 to 14,057), even though nearly half of the proteins in the analysis probably have evolutionary histories complicated by HGT. For all model selection criteria, by statistical convention a score difference of 5 or greater is viewed as very strong empirical evidence for the hypothesis with the better score (in this work higher scores are better). All scores shown are also highly statistically significant (the estimated variance for each score is approximately 2–3). According to a standard objective Bayesian interpretation of the model selection criteria, the scores are the log odds of the hypotheses. Therefore, UCA is at least 10^2,860 times more probable than the closest competing hypothesis. Notably, UCA is the most accurate and the most parsimonious hypothesis. Compared to the multiple-ancestry hypotheses, UCA provides a much better fit to the data (as seen from its higher likelihood), and it is also the least complex (as judged by the number of parameters).
The extraordinary strength of these results in the face of suspected HGT events suggests that the preference for the UCA model is robust to the extent of HGT. To test this possibility, the analysis was expanded to include models that allow each protein to have a distinct, independent evolutionary history. I refer to this set of models, which rejects a single tree metaphor for genealogically related taxa, as ‘class II’. Representative class II models are shown in Fig. 2. Within each set of genealogically related taxa, each of the 23 universally conserved proteins is allowed to evolve on its own separate phylogeny, in which both branch lengths and tree topology are free parameters. [...] Overall, the model selection tests show that the class II models are greatly preferred to the class I models. For instance, the class II UCA hypothesis ([ABE]II) versus the class I UCA hypothesis (ABE) gives a highly significant LLR of 3,557, a ?AIC of 2,633 and an LBF of 2,875. The optimal class II models represent an upper limit to the degree of HGT, as many of the apparent reticulations are probably due to incomplete lineage sorting, hidden paralogy, recombination, or inaccuracies in the evolutionary models. Nonetheless, as with the class I non-HGT hypotheses, all model selection criteria unequivocally support a single common genetic ancestry for all taxa. Also similar to the class I models, the class II UCA model has the greatest explanatory power and is the most parsimonious.
Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain the origin of eukaryotes and the early evolution of life by endosymbiotic fusion of an early archaeon and bacterium. A key commonality of these hypotheses is the rejection of a single, bifurcating tree as a proper model for the ancestry of Eukarya. For instance, in these biological hypotheses certain eukaryotic genes are derived from Archaea whereas others are derived from Bacteria. The class II models freely allow eukaryotic genes to be either archaeal-derived or bacterial-derived, as the data dictate, and hence class II hypotheses can model several endosymbiotic ‘rings’ and HGT events. [...] In all cases, these bounds show that multiple-ancestry versions of the constrained class II models are overwhelmingly rejected by the tests (model selection scores of several thousands), indicating that common ancestry is also preferred for all specific HGT and endosymbiotic fusion models. In terms of a fusion hypothesis for the origin of Eukarya, the data conclusively support a UCA model in which Eukarya share an ancestor with Bacteria and another independently with Archaea, and in which Bacteria and Archaea are also genetically related independently of Eukarya (see Table 3).
[...]
What property of the sequence data supports common ancestry so decisively? When two related taxa are separated into two trees, the strong correlations that exist between the sequences are no longer modelled, which results in a large decrease in the likelihood. Consequently, when comparing a common-ancestry model to a multiple-ancestry model, the large test scores are a direct measure of the increase in our ability to accurately predict the sequence of a genealogically related protein relative to an unrelated protein. The sequence correlations between a given clade of taxa and the rest of the tree would be eliminated if the columns in the sequence alignment for that clade were randomly shuffled. In such a case, these model-based selection tests should prefer the multiple-ancestry model. In fact, in actual tests with randomly shuffled data, the optimal estimate of the unified tree (for both maximum likelihood and Bayesian analyses) contains an extremely large internal branch separating the shuffled taxa from the rest. In all cases tried, with a wide variety of evolutionary models (from the simplest to the most parameter rich), the multiple-ancestry models for shuffled data sets are preferred by a large margin over common ancestry models (LLR on the order of a thousand), even with the large internal branches. Hence, the large test scores in favour of UCA models reflect the immense power of a tree structure, coupled with a gradual Markovian mechanism of residue substitution, to accurately and precisely explain the particular patterns of sequence correlations found among genealogically related biological macromolecules.


If IDists were actually interested in testing ID, they'd write articles like this.

ETA: Nick Matzke at PT about this article

ETA: That's 10^2,860:
Therefore, UCA is at least 10^2,860 times more probable than the closest competing hypothesis.

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2010,06:39   

Quote
If IDists were actually interested in testing ID, they'd write articles like this.

I know what I think but don't quite find the words to use...

-----------
ETA qualifications...

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2010,14:12   

Creation of a Bacterial Cell Controlled by a Chemically Synthesized Genome

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/science.1190719

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2010,10:20   

http://www.sott.net/article....Species

Quote

Using its fins to walk, rather than swim, along the ocean floor in an undated picture, the pink handfish is one of nine newly named species described in a recent scientific review of the handfish family.


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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2010,10:25   

Quote (khan @ May 25 2010,10:20)
http://www.sott.net/article....Species

Quote

Using its fins to walk, rather than swim, along the ocean floor in an undated picture, the pink handfish is one of nine newly named species described in a recent scientific review of the handfish family.

Good eating, but an hour later, you're dead.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2010,12:16   

http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2010,13:38   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 25 2010,12:16)
http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/

Good stuff!  -  I'm always impressed when a DI fellow gets blasted by a TE - and your link is one of the best I've seen.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2010,15:12   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 25 2010,13:38)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 25 2010,12:16)
http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/

Good stuff!  -  I'm always impressed when a DI fellow gets blasted by a TE - and your link is one of the best I've seen.

Yes, thank you. Very informative.

I continue to be astonished at the way these IDists conduct themselves.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2010,18:35   

Teh designer is a termite:

Quote
The real king of the savanna appears to be the termite, say ecologists who've found that these humble creatures contribute mightily to grassland productivity in central Kenya via a network of uniformly distributed colonies. Termite mounds greatly enhance plant and animal activity at the local level, while their even distribution over a larger area maximizes ecosystem-wide productivity.


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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5787
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2010,14:06   

The Designer was a termite? is that what caused the Fall - when the Designer ate the supporting beams? :p

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2010,14:41   

http://arstechnica.com/science....ent.ars

Quote
It's hardly a secret that large segments of the population choose not to accept scientific data because it conflicts with their predefined beliefs: economic, political, religious, or otherwise. But many studies have indicated that these same people aren't happy with viewing themselves as anti-science, which can create a state of cognitive dissonance. That has left psychologists pondering the methods that these people use to rationalize the conflict.

A study published in the Journal of Applied Social Psychology takes a look at one of these methods, which the authors term "scientific impotence"—the decision that science can't actually address the issue at hand properly. It finds evidence that not only supports the scientific impotence model, but suggests that it could be contagious. Once a subject has decided that a given topic is off limits to science, they tend to start applying the same logic to other issues.

The paper is worth reading for the introduction alone, which sets up the problem of science acceptance within the context of persuasive arguments and belief systems. There's a significant amount of literature that considers how people resist persuasion, and at least seven different strategies have been identified. But the author, Towson University's Geoffrey Munro, attempts to carve out an exceptional place for scientific information. "Belief-contradicting scientific information may elicit different resistance processes than belief-contradicting information of a nonscientific nature," he argues. "Source derogation, for example, might be less effective in response to scientific than nonscientific information."


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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 01 2010,10:43   

http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/tennant9/thagard_JP1978.pdf

well, Philosophy of science break.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2010,10:21   

Those are the rules...

This editorial in the current Nature Immunology spells out nicely why most IDist don't stand a chance at getting an article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

 
Quote
Dogmas, paradigms and proving hypotheses
Nature Immunology 11: 455(2010)
doi:10.1038/ni0610-455

Strong hypotheses stand the test of time because of rigorous experimentation by authors and the scientific community.

From time to time a manuscript arrives accompanied by a cover letter in which the authors state that the new work being submitted “overturns existing dogma” on some immunological process. Others suggest their work is “paradigm changing” and go on to describe how they prove their hypothesis. Naturally, such bold claims capture our attention, but unfortunately, more often than not, they fall short. Why is this so?

Part of the problem is the authors' choice of words to describe the hypothesis addressed in the study and why this question is relevant to a large cross-section of the community. A 'dogma' is defined as a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority and held to be incontrovertibly true. However, immunology is an experimental science and rarely if ever can dogmatic claims be made in science. Moreover, a paradigm (a word derived from the Greek paradeiknynai, meaning 'to show side by side') is defined as an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype. Perhaps better stated, a paradigm is a current model supported by abundant experimental evidence. For example, one immunological paradigm at present might be the hypothesis that innate immunity triggered by pattern-recognition receptors initiates and shapes adaptive immune responses through the expression of proinflammatory cytokines. For authors who seek to claim “paradigm-changing” results, the onus is on them to explain why the previous theory cannot explain the present findings. They also need to put forth a new or unifying hypothesis that can account for both the previous work and the new experimental data. Admittedly, the bar is higher for authors claiming to “change” a paradigm.
[...]

Alternative interpretations of the same data set give rise to competing hypotheses. Here, as with the posing of any hypothesis, authors should strive to test the robustness of their model and determine how well its predictions hold true after perturbation of the system. A weak test to demonstrate the desired result is not strong support for a favored hypothesis. Instead, the challenge is to design the most stringent test possible to disprove the hypothesis and then see if the new data rule out or support the hypothesis. In the process of peer review, referees will often voice concerns that additional experimentation is needed to rule out alternative interpretations. Such referee concerns are not intended to hold back publication of the work but to provide additional support that the authors' hypothesis is the most likely explanation of the data set and to show how the hypothesis fits in the broader framework of previous findings. Often such control experiments have already been done by the authors, as they too recognize the need to rule out trivial or alternative explanations for the data obtained, but these have not been included in the submitted manuscript. Such data can readily be incorporated into a revision and serve to increase the validity of the authors' conclusions.
[...]

Scientific advancement does not occur by proclamation of dogmatic theories. Immunologists, like other scientists, gather data sets from which hypotheses can be posed to explain the findings obtained. The challenge is how to design rigorous tests for a favorite hypothesis—and by doing so, researchers help to truly advance the field.

Especially the bit I highlighted in blue is the part that IDists just don't get.

IMO it's a useful article one can point to in case yet another ID proponent claims ID is unfairly excluded from being published in peer-reviewed journals when all ID has is the claim that every protein that has both a function and is longer than 35 aminoacids can't have evolved because it has more than 150 bits of dFSCI or whatever the newest creation is (seems that each IDiot nowadays makes up his own acronym, the more letters the better; maybe they think that'll increase the information content of their undefined mess and if they keep it up it will at some point suddenly become useful).

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2010,14:47   

Quote (JLT @ June 08 2010,10:21)
For authors who seek to claim “paradigm-changing” results, the onus is on them to explain why the previous theory cannot explain the present findings. They also need to put forth a new or unifying hypothesis that can account for both the previous work and the new experimental data. Admittedly, the bar is higher for authors claiming to “change” a paradigm.
[...]

You make Teh Baby Billy Dembski cry, and sing the blues...

And I like it.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2010,15:10   

Quote
Often such control experiments have already been done by the authors, as they too recognize the need to rule out trivial or alternative explanations for the data obtained, but these have not been included in the submitted manuscript. Such data can readily be incorporated into a revision and serve to increase the validity of the authors' conclusions.


This part caught my eye. We used to joke about whether a paper had a LPU, or Least Publishable Unit. The less data you could get away with in a publication meant the more publications you could squeeze out of a project.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,05:22   

I don't know if I can contribute anything of interest here, but I found this very interesting, and yet another reason to ask what the heck does the designer think he is doing? Anyway, just an excerpt I've tried to translate:

 
Quote
It is done by making a complete DNAanalysis of the radiolarian with all its contents.

Even if the parasites cannot be identified with a microscope, DNA analysis shows that they are there.

We don’t know the numbers, but there may be many parasites in radiolarians. Each day we discover some new ones.

It is just the discovery of parasites in radiolarians that makes it possible to solve the mystery of the unknown, biological diversity in the oceans.

It is explained by the strong correlation between DNA-samples from a single radiolarian and DNA-samples of seawater.

Now we know that all sequences inside of the radiolarians are identical with the unknown sequences in the oceans.

We therefore may conclude that large proportions of the unknown strands of DNA in water are from parasites.

- We now are going to map DNA from a number of radiolarians and parasites in order to learn the interplay between them says Kamran Shalchian Tabrizi. (leader of the interdisciplinary group Microbial Evolution Research Group (MERG) at Universitetet i Oslo (UiO) who has for many years been researching at University of Oslo.)

To reach their goal, the researchers wish to sequence the entire genome, i.e. the complete genetic mass, of both radiolarians and their parasites. The problem is the enormous genomes. Incredibly enough the genome of radiolarians may be up to a hundred times larger than the human.

My bold and italics.

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,05:56   

Quite old news, but it seems science has mad a further small step towards abiogenesis. I find this colour of panspermia* theory quite attractive.



*Well, not exactly panspermia, but this type of "contamination" is definitely an interesting thought...

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,07:16   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 09 2010,05:56)
Quite old news, but it seems science has mad a further small step towards abiogenesis. I find this colour of panspermia* theory quite attractive.
*Well, not exactly panspermia, but this type of "contamination" is definitely an interesting thought...

   
Quote
"We wanted to test whether pyrimidine can survive in space, and whether it can undergo reactions that turn it into more complicated organic species, such as the nucleobase uracil."

What, without an intelligent source for fCSI?

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 14 2010,11:55   

Mmmmh..Interesting...

What I like there:

Quote
"Titan's atmospheric chemistry is cranking out organic compounds that rain down on the surface so fast that even as streams of liquid methane and ethane at the surface wash the organics off, the ice gets quickly covered again," Clark said. "All that implies Titan is a dynamic place where organic chemistry is happening now."


And:

Quote
"Scientific conservatism suggests that a biological explanation should be the last choice after all non-biological explanations are addressed," Allen said. "We have a lot of work to do to rule out possible non-biological explanations. It is more likely that a chemical process, without biology, can explain these results - for example, reactions involving mineral catalysts."



But yeah, sure, science is *very dogmatic* and will settle on any explanation that fits its political agenda...

DI will probably FUQ it (fill it in their "Frequently Unanswered Questions"*)




*Thank you, leastIcouldDo

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 14 2010,13:17   

Oleg:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view....Feynman

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
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