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stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2006,17:43   

From Donald M, to Slaveador Cordova, to Davescot's frantic attempts to get out of the hole by digging straight through to China, I think if a creationist actually made a point which he could then back up, I'd be rendered speechless.

We all had a good laugh earlier when tribune said, at Uncommonly Dense,

Quote
And let’s not forget the most used, abused and not news strawman: Scientific evidence conclusively refutes a 6,500-year-old Earth so ID can’t be true.

Great Post, Salvador.


I know I doubted this:

Quote

I can't recall actually hearing this 'most used' strawman.


Well, somehow, a commenter at UD has asked tribune7 for some evidence of this strawman. I think it was the fake compatriotism than let the comment through:

Quote
#

hey tribune7,

HAHA that’s totally whacky man! Can you post a link to one of those news articles? I gotta see this with my own eyes. (and make it a point to laugh at the journalist who uses that strawman)

later bud.

Fross

Comment by Fross — July 3, 2006 @ 9:23 am


Now, if you think tribune7 responded with a link to someone using this strawman, go splash some cold water on your face, because you're not awake and thinking clearly. Of course he can't back it up. But he thinks he did:

Quote
Frossy, old buddy, here you go:

Ever since the failure of the creation science movement, a number of activists—many of them young-Earth Christians—have been trying to discredit evolution by claiming that ID is a scientific alternative to natural selection. These people, led by Phillip Johnson and the folks at the Discovery Institute, have been very successful in convincing member of the media, politicians, school boards, and the general public (scientifically illiterate as it is*) that the evolution is a “theory in crisis” and that ID is a viable alternative to evolution.* at http://skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html

And ABC is always good for a laugh:

Almost half of the U.S. population — 45 percent — believes that human beings did not evolve, but instead were created by God, as stated in the Bible, about 10,000 years ago, according to a November 2004 Gallup poll. Now many of those believers are pushing for a way to align their beliefs with scientific evidence of dinosaurs — a battle being fought in legislatures, classrooms and museums across the country. . . President Bush recently endorsed “intelligent design” — the theory that life could not exist without divine guidance — saying it should be taught in schools “so people can understand what the debate is about.” at  http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Beliefs/story?id=1030003&page=1

And how about this blast from the past from Physics Today: “Intelligent Design Is Creationism in a Cheap Tuxedo” at http://www.aip.org/pt/vol-55/iss-6/p48a.html

Granted they fudge a litte about saying the “Earth’s age, and other awkward issues are swept under the rug” but you know they feel obliged to warn that “Evolutionary biology is ID’s primary target, but geology and physics are within its blast zone”, right?

Comment by tribune7 — July 3, 2006 @ 7:49 pm


Do you see tribune7's strawman anywhere in those excerpts? No, because it's not there.

   
Aardvark



Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2006,19:18   

I found a video of Larry on YouTube:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X29D23C5D

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,01:24   

Quote (Aardvark @ July 03 2006,19:18)
I found a video of Larry on YouTube:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X29D23C5D

That really was Larry Farfarman on the video?

Bloody he11 is he scary.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,07:20   

no, that's not larry.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,08:26   

Quote (stevestory @ July 04 2006,12:20)
no, that's not larry.

Same species, different specimen.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,08:31   

Quote (Alan Fox @ July 04 2006,06:24)
Quote (Aardvark @ July 03 2006,19:18)
I found a video of Larry on YouTube:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X29D23C5D

That really was Larry Farfarman on the video?

Bloody he11 is he scary.

It was some loon called David Thompson from the city of Charlotte, N. Carolina.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,08:31   

Quote
Same species, different specimen.


Doppelganger!! (cue eerie music)

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,08:40   

Larry is 60 years old IIRC.

Brilliant video tho'

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,08:48   

A new gem from UD:

Quote
ID being a scientific enterprise easily sustained by empirical evidence


I nearly wet myself, I laughed so hard.

Surely the original poster deserves several dozen gold stars, either for sheer comedy gold value or absolutely jaw dropping pig ignorance.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,10:54   

A link in Salvador' latest post at Uncommonly Dense produces some real challenges to evolutionary biology.

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,11:25   

Hehe.
Quote
Table 2. Predictions of Design (Hypothesis):
(1) High information content machine-like irreducibly complex structures will be found.
(2) Forms will be found in the fossil record that appear suddenly and without any precursors.
(3) Genes and functional parts will be re-used in different unrelated organisms.
(4) The genetic code will NOT contain much discarded genetic baggage code or functionless "junk DNA".


Table 3. Predictions of Darwinian Evolution (Hypothesis):
(1) High information content machine-like irreducibly complex structures will NOT be found.
(2) Forms will appear in the fossil record as a gradual progression with transitional series.
(3) Genes and functional parts will reflect those inherited through ancestry, and are only shared by related organisms.
(4) The genetic code will contain much discarded genetic baggage code or functionless "junk DNA".


Except that Irreducible complexity was predicted by Hermann Muller in 1918 (called interlocking complexity in 1938), and Specified complexity was named and predicted by Leslie Orgel in 1973.

  
Drew Headley



Posts: 152
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,19:20   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1285
Salvador says:
Quote
Information is made possible through uncertainty, the definition of information being “that which reduces uncertainty”.

Uncertainty is not possible through a deterministic law like processes by definition.

It seems the paper and comments by Salvador imply that there is no information in the universe, assuming that it is governed by natural laws. I wonder what other people on this board think of such a proposition?

   
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,19:52   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ July 04 2006,13:31)
Quote (Alan Fox @ July 04 2006,06:24)
 
Quote (Aardvark @ July 03 2006,19:18)
I found a video of Larry on YouTube:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X29D23C5D

That really was Larry Farfarman on the video?

Bloody he11 is he scary.

It was some loon called David Thompson from the city of Charlotte, N. Carolina.

LOL!  I have the pleasure of living in the home town of one of the most famous "black helicopters" conspiracy theorists--one  Alex Jones, who hales from Austin, Texas.  He's been on cable access TV here for years and, when he's in the mood, can easily stir himself up into a red-faced, wild-eyed rage.  It's fascinating to watch.

His main claims to fame are his infowars.com web site, his arrest for disturbing the peace while refusing to be fingerprinted for his driver's license, and for sneaking into the elistist Bohemian Grove and taking some very shaky and indistinct footage of the "pagan rituals" being performed there.

The local slogan "Keep Austin Weird" must be working, what with Alex Jones and Dave Scott Springer making their homes in central Texas.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,22:35   

Quote
Taking the high road and maintaining the high ground at UD

This just in from a trusted colleague:

Quote
Your “uncommondescent.com” blog is such an important source of useful and thought-provoking information and is so widely read, that it hurts me to see it deteriorate into ad homonem attacks and name-calling, as it has lately. I am quite aware that the other side uses such tactics almost to the exclusion of logic, but I’m convinced that responding in kind is not effective (I certainly understand the temptation, and do it myself frequently), staying on the high road and sticking to the issues, even showing respect for opponents who don’t disserve it, really gets people’s attention, because it is such a rare tactic in today’s world. I have more than once told friends that one reason Michael Behe is so effective is he treats all questions with respect, no matter how ill-intentioned.

I know it feels good to administer a spanking to the other side (certainly they deserve it and sometimes it needs to be done publicly), but as much as possible let’s focus on the issues of intellectual merit — this is where ID wins hands down.

Filed under: Intelligent Design — William Dembski @ 7:47 am

Dembski also appears to enjoy administering an occasional spanking to DaveScot.  Too bad it took a "trusted colleague" to make him aware that his blog was turning into The Jerry Springer Show.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,22:48   

I missed this on my first read-through:
Quote
ad homonem attacks

I think we have a new name for a favorite DaveTard tactic.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2006,23:04   

An interesting glimpse at how Salvador sees himself:
Quote
Well, given that we’re getting so much unexpected attention, I suppose we’ll have to try to be more diplomatic rather than being the pranksters, trouble makers, and irreverent comedians that many of us (myself foremost) are at heart.

Salvador

Comment by scordova — July 4, 2006 @ 10:04 am


--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,02:35   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1284#comments

Quote
3.  Dave,
Not to hound you with this…. but write a book!

Comment by Doug — July 3, 2006 @ 3:44 pm

4.  I agree with Doug. You should write a book. I’m excited that Mike Gene is writing a book, but I think Dave Scott has just as much to offer.

Comment by Benton — July 3, 2006 @ 10:09 pm

Yes, DaveTard, write a book.  Bwaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.  He can write a book that explains how gravity is the strongest force in the universe, how the evil ACLU used jury nullification to fleece the Dover school system, how Marines are being kept from prayer, how he violates SLOT every time he thinks, how Scientific American is the greatest journal of all and how he has become the expert of all by reading it, how engineers are much more knowledgable about biology than biologists, how homos and the ACLU are ruining this country, etc.  Any other ideas?

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,03:03   

I note that Salvador says:

"Trevors and Abel are backed up by 150 years of empirical data after Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation. Abiogensis goes against everything we know empirically and theoretically."

PAsteurs experiment was an accurate reproduction of the conditions of Earth 3 billion years ago?  You mean it is true, we're the result of an alien experiment.  Or a giant snotter from some aliens nose.  

Then theres this paper:


cached from google

Which appears to be a pukka science paper, but I cannot see how it got past peer review.  With statements like:

Quote
Even if RNA or DNA were inserted into a lifeless world, they would not contain any genetic instructions unless each nucleotide selection in the sequence was programmed for function. Even then, a predetermined communication systemwould have had to be in place for any message to be understood at the destination.

in the abstract, I cannot quite see that it makes any sense.  Programmed for function?  Whose the prgrammer?  

Quote
Selection pressure cannot select nucleotides at the digital programming level where primary structures form

Pardon?  But ultimately, selection pressure operates on the atomic level.
Edited to clarify- I'm not a biologist, but it seems to me that since the behaviour of proteins, DNA, etc etc is dependent upon the atoms that make them up, and in turn the structures that these atoms can make up, then you can argue that selection operates right down to the atomic level.  Feel free to disagree.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,03:41   

DaveTard comes through again to brighten my morning.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1283#comment-46429

Quote
The only real bone of contention is what can be taught in public schools and who decides. Schools need a “clean” ID text that delineates the reasons why current evolutionary explanations are insufficient and the various things that point to intelligent design being a better explanation for certain patterns found in nature. It’s unconstitutional to deny anyone participation in the political process because of their religious beliefs and it’s unconstitutional to try to tell them they can’t vote according to their religious beliefs. These are fundamental to the first amendment free exercise clause. Atheists are entitled to vote against teaching ID because it conflicts with their faith just as theists are free to vote for it because it is copasetic with their beliefs. The only thing that should actually matter is whether or not ID is itself religion. If it isn’t then its fair game. Establishment of bad science or wrong theories isn’t unconstitutional. If a school district wanted to teach that the earth is flat it would be a shame but it wouldn’t be unconstitutional. So does ID meet the legal definition of a religon? Not even close. -ds

So, if a community wants to teach that the Earth is only 6000 years old, that's fine because it's not religion.  They just aren't allowed to teach Christianity.  DT is quite the philosophic/legal/scientific mind.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,03:46   

One comment further down DT again gives us hilarity.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1283#comment-46484

Quote
Mung,

The reconstruction of a genome for the common ancestor for mammals is currently in the works. I ran into a couple of folks involved with this at a conference recently. When complete, I’m certain it will be publicly available as a database. (My guess is within the next 6-8 months) As many have indicated–even here–common ancestry has solid support through genomic data. What is your idea for a test?

I read that humans and bananas have about 50% identical DNA. I didn’t check to see if it’s true but it sounds about right. Maybe when you’e done with that common mammal genome you can work on the common banammal genome. And if humans and bananas have 50% in common in their DNA isn’t that suspiciously supportive of front-loading as it suggests a huge common genome existed even before plants and animals separated? After all, only a few percent of either the banana or human genome are used for coding genes. Why on earth would so much of it be the same and preserved for what, a billion years (offhand I’m not aware of the best guestimate for plant/animal divergence)? -ds

Comment by great_ape — July 4, 2006 @ 6:54 pm

Banammal.  Awesome.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,04:54   

Quote (guthrie @ July 05 2006,08:03)
I note that Salvador says:

"Trevors and Abel are backed up by 150 years of empirical data after Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation. Abiogensis goes against everything we know empirically and theoretically."

PAsteurs experiment was an accurate reproduction of the conditions of Earth 3 billion years ago?  You mean it is true, we're the result of an alien experiment.  Or a giant snotter from some aliens nose.  

Then theres this paper:


cached from google

Which appears to be a pukka science paper, but I cannot see how it got past peer review.  With statements like:

Quote
Even if RNA or DNA were inserted into a lifeless world, they would not contain any genetic instructions unless each nucleotide selection in the sequence was programmed for function. Even then, a predetermined communication systemwould have had to be in place for any message to be understood at the destination.

in the abstract, I cannot quite see that it makes any sense.  Programmed for function?  Whose the prgrammer?  

Quote
Selection pressure cannot select nucleotides at the digital programming level where primary structures form

Pardon?  But ultimately, selection pressure operates on the atomic level.

He should follow O Reilly on Fox 'news' channel.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,05:00   

Quote (GCT @ July 05 2006,07:35)
http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1284#comments

 
Quote
3.  Dave,
Not to hound you with this…. but write a book!

Comment by Doug — July 3, 2006 @ 3:44 pm

4.  I agree with Doug. You should write a book. I’m excited that Mike Gene is writing a book, but I think Dave Scott has just as much to offer.

Comment by Benton — July 3, 2006 @ 10:09 pm


Another gem from that same thread, while discussing what to do about the 'Darwinists':

 
Quote
Let’s give them the attention they REALLY deserve–let’s pray for them.

Comment by glennj — July 4, 2006 @ 12:45 pm

By name.

Comment by glennj — July 4, 2006 @ 12:48 pm


These guys never let us down, not even for a minute.   :p

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,05:40   

Quote (tacitus @ July 05 2006,01:52)
LOL!  I have the pleasure of living in the home town of one of the most famous "black helicopters" conspiracy theorists--one  Alex Jones, who hales from Austin, Texas.  He's been on cable access TV here for years and, when he's in the mood, can easily stir himself up into a red-faced, wild-eyed rage.  It's fascinating to watch.

His main claims to fame are his infowars.com web site, his arrest for disturbing the peace while refusing to be fingerprinted for his driver's license, and for sneaking into the elistist Bohemian Grove and taking some very shaky and indistinct footage of the "pagan rituals" being performed there.

I have relatives who think Alex Jones is the most important investigative journalist of the modern era.

Needless to say, they are also creationists.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,05:52   

Quote (stevestory @ July 05 2006,10:40)
Quote (tacitus @ July 05 2006,01:52)
LOL!  I have the pleasure of living in the home town of one of the most famous "black helicopters" conspiracy theorists--one  Alex Jones, who hales from Austin, Texas.  He's been on cable access TV here for years and, when he's in the mood, can easily stir himself up into a red-faced, wild-eyed rage.  It's fascinating to watch.

His main claims to fame are his infowars.com web site, his arrest for disturbing the peace while refusing to be fingerprinted for his driver's license, and for sneaking into the elistist Bohemian Grove and taking some very shaky and indistinct footage of the "pagan rituals" being performed there.

I have relatives who think Alex Jones is the most important investigative journalist of the modern era.

Needless to say, they are also creationists.

I'd bet Paley has many nice things to say about him.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,05:58   

From Alex Jones to Ann Coulter to Bill Dembski, there's really a lot of money to be made through lying to idiots.

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,07:19   

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but DaveTard is as bad at lying as he is at biology and logic.  Look at how his Scientific American "credential" morphs over time:
Quote
I’ve read every issue of SciAm cover to cover for two decades in my spare time...

Posted by DaveScot on January 6, 2005 03:25 PM

Quote
I’ve also been a subscriber and dedicated reader of Scientific American for almost 40 years.

Comment by DaveScot — May 2, 2005 @ 3:51 pm

Quote
I found it a bit disturbing that a double PhD from UC and Yale with a perfect SAT score would be called a blithering idiot by the editor of an otherwise respectable magazine that I’ve subscribed to for 30 years.

Comment by DaveScot — June 3, 2005 @ 3:40 pm

Quote
I am an extreme polymath. Auto-didact. Going on 50 years of voracious consumption of any and all scientific literature processed and correlated by an IQ well into the genius range. I had all the hard science in the World Book encyclopedia memorized by the third grade and that was just the beginning. I’ve read, I reckon, 400 issues of Scientific American cover-to-cover and understand most of it...

Comment by DaveScot — June 15, 2005 @ 3:15 pm

Quote
Astronomy rules, dude. For the past 400 months when I get my Scientific American in the mail if there’s an article on astronomy or cosmology in it I turn straight to it before anything else. After reading that I usually go from front to back reading everything else...

June 15, 2005 @ 6:11 pm

Quote
Perhaps Santa should give Steve a subscription to Scientific American for Christmas - a magazine I’ve been reading cover to cover every month for 30 years - so he wouldn’t have missed The Alternative Genome and then he’d know that introns aren’t junk DNA...

March 6, 2006

Quote
So basically all the scientific discovery of the last 40 years important enough to make it into the pages of Scientific American I read about at the time it was discovered...

June 20, 2006


--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,07:28   

So, are you trying to say that DaveTard is inconsistent in his claims to all knowledge of the universe that he gained through the hard science journal Scientific American?  Well, surely you still have to grant that he is the master of all scientific knowledge.  I mean, who else can violate SLOT with his keyboard?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,07:28   

In light of Keithseses' post, I'm restating my previous post:

 
Quote
From Alex Jones to Ann Coulter to Bill Dembski, there's really a lot of money to be made
through lying to idiots Extreme Polymaths.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,07:31   

Funny that DT is always name dropping Scientific American to give himself legitimacy, since I'll bet the SciAm editorial board thinks Intelligent Design is a load of shit.  :p

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,07:48   

Ya know how creobots are always tryin' to say stuff like Darwinism leads to loose morals?  Well, now I think I can point to an example where Dembski's loose morals about plagiarizing himself has led to one commenter plagiarizing another.  See here:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1290#comment-46413

Quote
Things that make ya go “hmmmmmmm”.


And, in the very next comment...

Quote
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Good question!


Note that the second comment was not in response to the first, but looking at the exact same quotation from the first comment.  I think we should attack ID from this standpoint, as it has obviously caused an amoral act, and therefore is leading to the downfall of society.

  
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