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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > GoP defends his claim about muslim intergration

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Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,10:39    Well Mr. Paley. I am a tad worried about apearing on your side. However I do think that the muslim agenda is pretty much anti-western values. Oh well. Lets see where this leads. I find it strange that people who are anti-fundamentalist make exceptions for muslim fundies.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,11:03    At the risk of irritating Stephen, I'm going to post a few more links. Please note (first link): 1) The separation between Indians and the Bangladeshis/Pakistanis in all categories; 2) The inverse relationship between GCSE scores and the concentration of Muslim followers within the host nations; 3) The fact that the lower achieving groups are "more educated" despite relatively poor test performance; 4) The evidence for regression to the cultural mean in Africans, Caribbeans, and Pakistanis. The more recent data (second link) supports the above observations, although the Pakistanis nip the Bangladeshis at the GCE A levels. The authors argue for biological differences between honkies and African/Caribbeans, but pay that no mind. The gold is in the comparison of the test differences within ethnic groups, which they can't explain at all. But I can, and have. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,11:30    Just one more link for now. I can't wait for Faid to answer this question:   Quote "Do Greek people have a right to determine who immigrates into their own country?" -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,15:40    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 11 2006,15:39) Well Mr. Paley. I am a tad worried about apearing on your side. However I do think that the muslim agenda is pretty much anti-western values. Oh well. Lets see where this leads. I find it strange that people who are anti-fundamentalist make exceptions for muslim fundies. Yes. The muslim agena is to rule the world, it is plain in the Qu'ran. This is not just fundie belief, is the living doctine of every muslim. We in America have CAIR. Just think of the name, the implication is that they are entitled to deal with the rest of us as a soverign power Yes. The muslim agena is to rule the world, it is plain in the Qu'ran. This is not just fundie belief, is the living doctine of every muslim. We in America have CAIR. Just think of the name, the implication is that they are entitled to deal with the rest of us as a soverign power

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,16:02    Quote (tsig @ Sep. 11 2006,20:40) Yes. The muslim agena is to rule the world, As opposed to the Christian fundamentalists, who want to bring the whole world "under Christ's feet". Right? Fundies is fundies.  They're all nutters, and they all need to be kept as far away as possible from real political power.  Anywhere. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,16:02    I think my question to Faid is the central one. It may well be true that Greek Muslims are relatively harmless, that Albanians are kicking academic a$$, and that most Greeks are not particularly rational on Islam. American Muslims may also be well assimilated, at least at the moment. Nevertheless, it all boils down to, "Does the Greek/Swede/American have the right to his own culture? And if not, why not? Why can't the Christian or non-communist atheist enjoy what the Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist takes for granted?" [edit: have you ever noticed the love affair that open-borders apologists have with the tu quoque argument? Get a hotel already......] -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,16:06    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 11 2006,15:39) However I do think that the muslim agenda is pretty much anti-western values. You mean Western values like, say, oh, free elections, free press, freedom of assembly, free speech . .. ? Ya know, the things that their unelected governments won't give them? The, uh, unelected governments that the US helps keep in power against their own people's wishes? You mean THOSE kind of Western values . . . ? -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,18:28    Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Sep. 11 2006,21:06) Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 11 2006,15:39) However I do think that the muslim agenda is pretty much anti-western values. You mean Western values like, say, oh, free elections, free press, freedom of assembly, free speech . .. ? Ya know, the things that their unelected governments won't give them? The, uh, unelected governments that the US helps keep in power against their own people's wishes? You mean THOSE kind of Western values . . . ? Good point. But I was reffering to an element of muslim culture in Britain. The idea that 40% of British muslims want sharia law in Britain is troubling.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2006,22:06    Ghost:   Quote See see affirmative action for Muslims in Greece I WIN NEENER NEENER Boy, You sure are on a roll, Ghost... I don't have time to reply to your previous post now, since work's being a bitch again, but I will this afternoon. In the meantime: As amusing as it is to watch the excitement with which you beat your strawmen, I'll have to disappoint you: That article talks about our native Muslim minority, Ghost. The one I already talked about, remember? The one I already said is more fundamental in their beliefs and way of life than most other Muslims, and it has (and always had) problems integrating? So you got nothing on me here. But since you brought it up again, remember: I also told you that, however distinct and marginalized, this community is not only without substantial crime rates, but surprisingly quiet. All the fuss involving it is political; complex games between Greece and Turkey involving their definition. But responsible for social disorder and crime? Hardly. Crumbling the foundations of Greek society? Nnnnnope. Not now, not for the last century. Unless you can address how this fits with your assertions, you got nothing on them either. More later.   -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2006,06:53    Faid:   Quote That article talks about our native Muslim minority, Ghost. The one I already talked about, remember? The one I already said is more fundamental in their beliefs and way of life than most other Muslims, and it has (and always had) problems integrating? So you got nothing on me here. Yeah, but you were using them as an example as a long-term Muslim population that didn't cause any trouble. Well to me, affirmative action is trouble. I will concede for now that they don't commit much crime, so you've got me there; I sure wish there were stats though.   Quote Crumbling the foundations of Greek society? Nnnnnope. Not now, not for the last century. Unless you can address how this fits with your assertions, you got nothing on them either. You don't ask much from your immigrant population, do ya? I agree that a low crime rate is a fantastic start, but I'd like to see them pull themselves up without relying on affirmative action. Plus, you can't remove the politicking from the ledger....the strained relations with Turkey also count IMHO. I'll wait for your reply. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2006,08:21    Oookay... I know I said I'll answer this afternoon, but I just woke up and now I gotta go see an evolutionist movie: Pirates of the Carribean. Maybe I'll post a review in your page! So, my reply will have to wait till tomorrow. I hope I won't annoy you much by making you wait... Don't worry, your "wife-beating" question will be answered too (although I've done that already wtf). And it won't take long, since I'll mostly use your own sources... This is becoming like a pattern with you and me, Ghost. Like having our own tune or something...   Just one thing before I go: Like I said, it is our NATIVE Muslim community. They're not considered immigrants: Most were here before many modern Greeks can claim their ancestors were. As for being a cause of tension, Like I said, they have been the pawn inmany a olitical game, and they are not so much the cause of tension between Greece and Turkey as the result of decades of tension between them. But that's another story. Laters! -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2006,09:30    Faid: Quote Oookay... I know I said I'll answer this afternoon, but I just woke up and now I gotta go see an evolutionist movie: Pirates of the Carribean. Maybe I'll post a review in your page! Don't worry, I can wait until tomorrow. By the way, if you really want to do a movie review on my page, feel free. I've been meaning to one myself, but I either don't have the time or am too tired. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2006,09:00    I guess Faid is still swooning from Johnny Depp's performance, cause otherwise why would he slap me with the dueling glove and then stand me up?   -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2006,09:10    Oh yeah, I almost forgot. This is a very astute remark:   Quote How liberals sustain their liberalism A commenter at Jihad Watch writes: When I suggested to a co-worker that she should read the Koran before jumping to the conclusion that terrorists are “misinterpreting” Islam, she said “I don’t think I should read the Koran, because there are probably things in it that will upset me.” Many years ago (pre-Giuliani, actually) I was describing to a liberal female friend, a lawyer who worked in New York, the decadence and depravity that were common in the streets of the city. She replied that she never looked at people in the streets. I thought, though I didn’t say, that that was a good way to keep one’s liberalism intact.                                 -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2006,09:29    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 14 2006,14:10) Oh yeah, I almost forgot. This is a very astute I had thought that you would have argued this case better. From my perspective in the UK it seems that muslims are definately not integrating. BTW when I use the term muslim I am reffering to the more fundy members. Not 1 single muslim that I actually know has a problem here as far as I can tell. I do see numerous problems though. From polls: A large % of muslims living in Britain consider our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as showing Britain to be anti-muslim. On the 2nd aniversary of the 9/11 atack, posters apeared all over my town (Slough) expressing celebrations of the atacks. There is the obvious thing of last Septembers London bombings. The protests in London of those Danish cartoons. Including more (bombing) threats. The forced marriage issue that our government "cowardly" refused to opose.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2006,12:20    S. Elliot:       Quote I had thought that you would have argued this case better. True, but my strategy is to circle in from the outside, cutting off possible avenues of retreat. I wanted to show that: 1) Islam's religious scriptures, even given the most generous reading possible, are fundamentally incompatible with the West. 2) Muslims understand and agree with 1). 3) 1) and 2) might explain why European Muslims struggle in school, at work, and in the judicial system. Basically, I wanted to start with broad cultural issues, move to historical nonassimilation, discuss the "hard" evidence of current non-assimilation, and then finally finish with the polling data. I suspect that inverting this presentation would have led to endless spin-doctoring from the other side: oh, this response came from a biased question, Muslims don't really mean this, you don't understand their culture, etc. But they can't really do that now, can they? The war and infidel suras are staring them in the face, and the lurkers have now gotten a free history lesson. So when they see that 40% of British Muslims prefer to live under Sharia, they see that this is a fundamental tenet of their culture, and not just a transient attitude.     Quote From polls: A large % of muslims living in Britain consider our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as showing Britain to be anti-muslim. On the 2nd aniversary of the 9/11 atack, posters apeared all over my town (Slough) expressing celebrations of the atacks. There is the obvious thing of last Septembers London bombings. The protests in London of those Danish cartoons. Including more (bombing) threats. Sure, but without the background information, all of this could have been waved away. Oh, just a few nuts that are misinterpreting the Koran, most Muslims are doing well, younger Muslims are different, it really is our fault so we need to appease, etc. I've obliterated that wheeze by making sense out of the data. And I'm not through yet. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2006,06:58    Actualy GoP, I don't agree that being a muslim is necessarily a complete barrier towards doing well in the "West". I am not sure why muslims in Britain tend to be worse off than most other groups. Probably there are many factors. Racism might be one facet but I doubt that very much. If this was the case the success of the Indian community would be hard to explain. I suspect that religious views are the major cause, both for their lack of economic success and disafection with life in Britain. The 40% who want sharia law here will never like Britain unless we alter our laws to their P.O.V. I would hate to see that happen. Having a large % of clerics trained or born and trained in Pakistan almost certainly does not help. We also tend to hear the views of the most extreme muslims far more clear and loud than those of moderates. This can't help. Multiculturism is likely to play a part too. Encouraging people to cling to their traditions probably discourages them to integrate. Particularly if those traditions are very different to the host nations. People being raised to hold strong views about women being second to men and needing to cover themselves to prevent lustfull thoughts (in men), are not very likely to do well here. Add to that the mixing of politics, law and religion in many muslim countries makes that outlook very hard to reconcile with modern British views. I consider likely to be untrue that being a muslim prevents economic success, but it probably makes it much more difficult (for the radicals at least). Other ideas are also making life difficult in the long term. Having the street signs in Southall (a London borough) written in a non-English language. This merely discourages the learning of English and that is bound to impact on business/employment oportunities. Another thing that I consider a hindrance to muslims in Britain is the notion of "the Islamic brotherhood". his seems to make it difficult for the more reasonable muslims to crticise extremists of their religion. While I have no problem believing that the vast majority of muslims are not active supporters of terrorism*. It would apear that an unsettlingly large % "have sympathy" (whatever that means) for the muslims that bombed London last year. *I use the word terrorism to mean the deliberate and intentional targetting of civilians.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2006,11:00    Jared's at it again:   Quote Major Findings Income and Wealth Per capita income of Hispanics is one half that of non-Hispanic whites, and household net worth is less than one tenth. Fifty percent of Hispanic households use some form of welfare, the highest rate of any major population group. Crime Hispanics are 3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites; they are 4.2 times more likely to be in prison for murder, and 5.8 times more likely to be in prison for felony drug crimes. Young Hispanics are 19 times more likely than young whites (and slightly more likely than young blacks) to be in youth gangs. Education Hispanics drop out of high school at three times the white rate and twice the black rate. Even third-generation Hispanics drop out of school at a higher rate than blacks and are less likely to be college graduates. From 1992 to 2003, Hispanic illiteracy in English rose from 35 percent to 44 percent. The average Hispanic 12th-grader reads and does math at the level of the average white 8th-grader. Families and Health At 43 percent, the Hispanic illegitimacy rate is twice the white rate, and Hispanic women have abortions at 2.7 times the white rate. Hispanics are three times more likely than whites not to have medical insurance, and die from AIDS and tuberculosis at three times the white rate. In California, the cost of free medical care for illegal aliens forced 60 hospitals to close between 1993 and 2003. Attitudes Only 33 percent of citizens of Hispanic origin consider themselves “Americans” first. The rest consider themselves either “Hispanic/Latino” or their former nationality first. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,03:34    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 17 2006,16:00) Jared's at it again:    [quote]Major Findings Income and Wealth Per capita income of Hispanics is one half that of non-Hispanic whites, and household net worth is less than one tenth... Are you going to point out the relevance any time soon?

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,04:59    S. Elliot:     Quote Are you going to point out the relevance any time soon?   The link provides evidence of third-generation cultural stagnation among certain Christian immigrants.....     Quote Even third-generation Hispanics drop out of school at a higher rate than blacks and are less likely to be college graduates. ....so should we necessarily expect better results from non-Western immigrants? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,05:16    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 18 2006,09:59) ....so should we necessarily expect better results from non-Western immigrants? I think it would depend on wether they are integrated or not. I have a suspicion that people born into a familly of imigrants that are maintaining a culture noticeably different to the host culture are more likely to feel alienated than the direct imigrants. The people who originally emigrate would be expected to have a desire to move to the new country. Therefore being much happier on the whole as it was their choice. The children on the other hand could become confused/dissafected due to two different lifestyles/expectations. But I don't know this for a fact. I get the impression that we are the only 2 people here interested in discussing it though.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,07:15    S. Elliot:   Quote I think it would depend on wether they are integrated or not. Yes. And with the exception of America, Muslims are not well integrated.   Quote I have a suspicion that people born into a familly of imigrants that are maintaining a culture noticeably different to the host culture are more likely to feel alienated than the direct imigrants. The people who originally emigrate would be expected to have a desire to move to the new country. Therefore being much happier on the whole as it was their choice. The children on the other hand could become confused/dissafected due to two different lifestyles/expectations. But I don't know this for a fact. I think many immigrants want the best of both worlds: they wish to take advantage of the new country's benefits while holding on to their old culture. This isn't so bad if their original culture is compatible with their new society, but if it isn't, trouble ensues. I also have the sneaking suspicion that many Muslims consider themselves colonists rather than immigrants. If you can't beat 'em from the outside, weaken them from the inside. Remember what the Koran teaches. Quote I get the impression that we are the only 2 people here interested in discussing it though. Everyone else has disappeared, haven't they? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,07:32    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 18 2006,12:15) I think many immigrants want the best of both worlds: they wish to take advantage of the new country's benefits while holding on to their old culture. This isn't so bad if their original culture is compatible with their new society, but if it isn't, trouble ensues. I also have the sneaking suspicion that many Muslims consider themselves colonists rather than immigrants. If you can't beat 'em from the outside, weaken them from the inside. Remember what the Koran teaches.   Quote I get the impression that we are the only 2 people here interested in discussing it though. Everyone else has disappeared, haven't they? IMO it isn't just imigrants. In Britain more and more people tend to be demanding rights while rejecting personal responsibility. Over here we seem to be growing a compensation culture. Years ago we used to laughat some of the stupid compensation claims tha Americans made. Now it is becoming a huge industry here. There is also a growing number of people that seem to choose to live on benefits. Something that I consider unsustainable. The largest imigration trend here is the Polish. There are thousands of them recently arived where I live. They are very good hard working people as a whole. Trouble is though that they are forcing people out of work on the lower end of the employment spectrum. Many of them work below the minimum wage. I do not blame the Polish here; It is the iresponsibility of the people that employ them. Going off-topic drastically sorry. To get back on-topic. I do not believe that muslim lack of success is the fault of individual muslims. I consider it a mix of our perception of them combined with (sometimes) their militancy. EDIT: It is a shame more people are not interested in discussing this. This site usually has a surplus of well educated incitefull comenters. They could add a lot to the subject.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,09:10    Quote IMO it isn't just imigrants. In Britain more and more people tend to be demanding rights while rejecting personal responsibility. Oh yeah, I'm not trying to frame the immigrants. Both of our countries have serious social problems that we need to address -- otherwise I wouldn't want full assimilation (Do we really want Jews, Indians, and NE Asians swilling beer in front of the telly? Or having lots of abortions & out of wedlock children?).   Quote Over here we seem to be growing a compensation culture. Years ago we used to laughat some of the stupid compensation claims tha Americans made. Now it is becoming a huge industry here. There is also a growing number of people that seem to choose to live on benefits. Something that I consider unsustainable. Welfare states need a strong, homogeneous culture to succeed. Something that's lacking in America and the UK.....   Quote To get back on-topic. I do not believe that muslim lack of success is the fault of individual muslims. I consider it a mix of our perception of them combined with (sometimes) their militancy. EDIT: It is a shame more people are not interested in discussing this. This site usually has a surplus of well educated incitefull comenters. They could add a lot to the subject. As Faid noted (where is he, by the way? I've never known him to break a promise), immigrants often get stereotyped & then blamed for every negative trend. That's one reason I like cultures that place the locus of responsibility on the individual; immigrants need thick skins to combat residual native hostility. It's unfair, but then so is life. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,09:28    I am starting to think that nobody should enjoy the rights of citizenship untill they have contributed something to society. Not sure how to work that idea yet. But being granted rights for zero input is begining to sound ridiculous. I really could not give a stuff about someones ethnicity. But before taking out from a central resource, people should have to put something in.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,10:17    Would you mind elaborating? Just curious. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

MidnightVoice Posts: 380 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,10:38    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 18 2006,14:28) I am starting to think that nobody should enjoy the rights of citizenship untill they have contributed something to society. Not sure how to work that idea yet. But being granted rights for zero input is begining to sound ridiculous. Naturalized citizens should get more votes. They have to pass a test on the constitution, and obviously know it better than Bush, and they have to pass a test in English, and obviously speak it better than Bush.   -------------- If I fly the coop some time And take nothing but a grip With the few good books that really count It's a necessary trip I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,12:41    Quote Arfin':         Quote OH MY GOD, PALEY, I am so GRATEFUL to you for SINGLE-HANDEDLY protecting us wicked liberals from, uh, whoever it is you're protecting us from. OH GOD, I'VE BEEN SO BLIND! WHAT CAN I DO to thank YOU, and ALL THE OTHER FUNDIES, and ISRAEL? Accept God.         Quote We liberals never realized HOW CLOSE WE CAME! *WHEW!* Is it the MUSLIM HORDES, Paley? Is that who you're saving me from? Oh my GOD, is my face RED! Our innate savagery. We'd still be running around rude, nude, and tatooed if it wasn't for Jesus. Europe before God: Europe after God: Europe without God: Any questions?   Quote No pictures of sweaty, naked BOXERS, Paley? How did you resist? So, 'accept God', huh? Is the Young Earth Creationism and Geocentric Universe an essential part of this?  And I assume the Muslim God is okay? Hindu gods? It's all good? What about those parts of the world that still haven't 'accepted God', Paley? Have they all been destroyed by their 'innate savagery'?And I assume that savagery is missing from all places that have 'accepted God'? It's really that simple? Am I savage if I believe in evolution?       Quote We'd still be running around rude, nude, and tatooed if it wasn't for Jesus. "People all had tattoos and never wore clothing before Jesus. In fact, in countries that continue to reject Jesus, it's still that way." Your grasp of history is right up there with Dave's. 'Europe without God'? Paley, by 1945, Europe had been Christian for a thousand years. Oh, whoops, I'm sorry -- they were all Wiccans and Atheists by then. You proved that a couple months ago. Another for your 'Europe with God' collection: Again, I'm SO GRATEFUL FOR HOW YOU SAVED ME, Paley! Quote Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 18 2006,17:02) Any questions? Yeah. When did these guys hear about Jesus? Or these guys? Or these guys? Or these guys?

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,13:08    Quote Over here we seem to be growing a compensation culture. Years ago we used to laughat some of the stupid compensation claims tha Americans made. Now it is becoming a huge industry here. A couple of years ago someone came up to us on the street and ended up trying to persuade my friend to sue her brother for pushing her of the swing and breaking her leg when she was 5. Quote There is also a growing number of people that seem to choose to live on benefits. Something that I consider unsustainable. This does seem to be a worrying trend although its hard to tell sometimes how much the news blows it out of proportion. Quote To get back on-topic. I do not believe that muslim lack of success is the fault of individual muslims. I consider it a mix of our perception of them combined with (sometimes) their militancy. What tends to happen in Britain is a situation of tolerant segregation (the government calls it multiculturalism), Im not really sure what the solution is though.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,14:10    Arfin:       Quote Yeah. When did these guys hear about Jesus? [snip] [pssst....Arden. Shah Jahan was quite familiar with Jesus.   ] Kidding aside, I see your point. The Mayan and Khmer Empires were both great. So were the Aztecs, Incans, Egyptians, Greeks, as well as many others. Nonetheless, none of these civilisations ever reached the height of European Judeo-Christian culture, and I think religion explains much of the difference. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

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