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  Topic: GoP defends his claim about muslim intergration, Rebuttal as appropriate< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,05:14   

P.S.

Quote
If you concede that Islam, if followed literally, is incompatible with the West, I'll immediately move on to the stats


I explicitly do not concede, nor think, this. If you want to pick on literal islam, sort your own house out first and demonstrate how literal christianity is compatible with the west.

Louis

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The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,05:38   

Louis:

 
Quote
Jewish fundies (or zionists if you like) are bombing merry #### out of Palestinians (rightly or wrongly) and have a foreign policy and a policy on mixed ethnicity that is directly at odds with modern western values.


Booooooo! You know this isn't a valid comparison. If Muslims countries would stop attacking Israel and Muslim terrorists would stop commiting atrocities, then Israel would let the Muslims alone.

 
Quote
Nothing to do with orthodoxy, everything to do with fanaticism. Oh and christian fundies are killing abortion doctors and blowing up clinics.


Yep, and this is a problem. But the scale is just a wee bit different, don't you think? Same thing with the Sikhs. I don't see them stabbing filmakers and sabotaging internet websites and causing widespread censorship of cartoons. If they're doing this, let me know.

It all comes back to an issue of scale. Islamic fundies are much more likely to commit terrorist attacks, and their attacks are often directed at the society as a whole, not just an industry they dislike.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,06:17   

Ghosty,

Sorry my bad, I should have made the comparison more clear. What I mean is that if we are cherry picking actions by groups and cherry picking scriptures we had better be on the same page about which bits we are cherry picking. I can find a slew of western values that find Israel's actions to be abhorrent (and a slew more that don't). Oh and by the way that's what (rightly or wrongly) was in there for.

If you're going to cherry pick the worst excesses of current terrorists who happen to be muslims, then why can't I cherry pick the worst excesses of the IRA? Or of ostensibly christian organisations and governments? Or even, dare I say it, of communists (who were ostensibly atheists doncherknow).

The broad point I am making is that this is a very complex topic, and reducing it to "muslim or not muslim" is a very narrow definition. Robert Mugabe: not muslim, nasty fucker, wouldn't want him or his administration trying to muscle their way in over here. Polish/Russian mafia trafficking girls for prostitution and running opium to the UK, less headlines, more damage caused and expense incurred than 10 9/11s or 100 7/7s. etc etc ad nauseum.

Oh and also by the way, the cartoon furore was deliberate. The clerics who toured the middle east did so with a few additional cartoons of their own devising to rouse the lads some more. Heavens! People with an agenda using made up inflammatory propaganda to incite a population to riot? Never been done by a christian! Hmmmmm Wait a minute......

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the evils of islamic terrorists, but the brush you are painting with is far too broad. You're giving it the old "men rape women therfore all man are (potential) rapists" schtick. Muslims do commit acts of terror, true. Muslims therefore are all potential terrorists, not true. You are not admitting to the VAST majority of muslims in the west (and elsewhere) who don't support, condone, or act out these atrocities.

Louis

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The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,07:18   

Quote
Ghosty,

Sorry my bad, I should have made the comparison more clear. What I mean is that if we are cherry picking actions by groups and cherry picking scriptures we had better be on the same page about which bits we are cherry picking. I can find a slew of western values that find Israel's actions to be abhorrent (and a slew more that don't). Oh and by the way that's what (rightly or wrongly) was in there for.


Ok, qualification understood. And I would be the first to complain about Jewish immigrants if they took their schtick over to America or Great Britain. But they don't, and that's what I'm getting at. American and European Jews are not whaling on American or European Muslims, so Israel's acts don't apply to them IMHO. On the other hand, many Muslims are importing their $^&* to the West, and that's what bothers me.

 
Quote
If you're going to cherry pick the worst excesses of current terrorists who happen to be muslims, then why can't I cherry pick the worst excesses of the IRA? Or of ostensibly christian organisations and governments? Or even, dare I say it, of communists (who were ostensibly atheists doncherknow).


Ahhh...but you're forgetting the scale once again. And the Irish are not recent immigrants to the UK if I recall.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,07:29   

Quote
Booooooo! You know this isn't a valid comparison.


Translated out of Paleyese = 'I don't agree with this and it screws up my argument'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,07:38   

Quote
Oh and also by the way, the cartoon furore was deliberate. The clerics who toured the middle east did so with a few additional cartoons of their own devising to rouse the lads some more. Heavens! People with an agenda using made up inflammatory propaganda to incite a population to riot? Never been done by a christian! Hmmmmm Wait a minute......


Yep, but the most fundy-friendly country in the West  (that would be us) also has a free media....one freer than most of Europe's media, at any rate. So what harm has been done by us Christian fundies? But Muslims are already abridging everyone else's liberty. South Park can broadcast blasphemous pictures of Jesus to its heart's content; but when they tried showing a drawing of Mohammed, Comedy Central wouldn't let 'em....and this was in the US. So much for the power of the Amurican Fundy.....

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,07:54   

Louis, I'll try to bring some statistics soon.

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ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,08:13   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Aug. 29 2006,10:38)
Booooooo! You know this isn't a valid comparison. If Muslims countries would stop attacking Israel and Muslim terrorists would stop commiting atrocities, then Israel would let the Muslims alone.

Just thought I'd pop by for a moment.

Yes, this is probably true, Bill. But that's not the problem. The problem is, Israel's antagonists have figured out exactly how to get Israel to act against its own interests, by reacting vastly out of proportion to its attackers' actions. It cannot have escaped your notice that Palestinian casualties are always many times the number of Israeli casualties, and it certainly hasn't escaped the notice of the Palestinians and their supporters.

Regardless of whether you think Israel's actions are justified or not, the more critical question is, are they constructive? I.e., do they further Israel's interests? It's pretty clear that they don't.

I was talking to a friend at a bar here in SF back in 2001, near the height of the last major intifada. We were talking about the whole Israel/Palestinian issue, and I could tell the bartender was sort of evesdropping. When my friend went to the ladies', I asked the bartender, who interestingly was Israeli, to do something: set aside, for the moment, questions of morality, or ethics, of who's at fault, of who did what to whom or why. Answer this question: do you think Israel's actions will ever have the desired effect, i.e., to get the Arabs and Paletinians to stop attacking Israel? Her answer: "Yes."

"How long do you think it will take," I asked. "After all, Israel's been using essentially the same tactics for the past fifty years, with precious little to show for it. Is Israel notably more secure now than it was in, say, 1950? How long will it take?"

Her answer? "Fifty, maybe seventy-five more years."

So. Israel's about halfway there on finally persuading the Arab world that it's not to be trifled with.

Maybe it's time to reconsider its tactics?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,09:49   

Eric:

     
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Just thought I'd pop by for a moment.

Yes, this is probably true, Bill. But that's not the problem. The problem is, Israel's antagonists have figured out exactly how to get Israel to act against its own interests, by reacting vastly out of proportion to its attackers' actions. [snip]


Ok, before this becomes a thread on Middle-East policy, let's assume, for the purposes of this debate, that Israel is The Most Evil Nation That Ever Existed*. On an Evilosity scale from 1 - 1000, Israel gets a 1307.

So what? Whatever happens in Israel, stays in Israel -- Jewish immigrants don't import their problems to the West. To a much greater extent, Muslim immigrants do. That's what I'm concerned about.

*I know that Louis and Eric don't believe this.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,11:29   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Aug. 29 2006,14:49)
So what? Whatever happens in Israel, stays in Israel -- Jewish immigrants don't import their problems to the West. To a much greater extent, Muslim immigrants do. That's what I'm concerned about.

Actually, no. What happens in Israel ends up halfway around the world, Bill. Whether you agree with Israel's actions or not, the biggest issue the Muslim world has with the West is its support of Israel. And not just support, but uncritical support.

Jewish immigrants may not export problems to the West, but their antagonists certainly do. Let me ask you this, Bill: if Israel did not exist, how big of a problem do you think most Arabs and/or Muslims would have with the U.S.? Sure, you can't practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis in general don't seem to have a problem with people practicing Christianity here. Which do you think ordinary Saudis have more of a problem with: America's Christian ways, or America's support for Israel?

(and, of course, I'm currently ignoring the Muslim world's biggest beef with America currently: its occupation of Mesopotamia.)

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,12:03   

Eric:

   
Quote
Actually, no. What happens in Israel ends up halfway around the world, Bill. Whether you agree with Israel's actions or not, the biggest issue the Muslim world has with the West is its support of Israel. And not just support, but uncritical support.


I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that the Middle East geopolitical situation has no effect outside its borders, I meant that Jewish immigrants don't bring their "baggage" to other countries. In other words, while some Israelis may dislike Muslims, they don't mistreat them or engage in terrorism when they move to other countries. That's what counts with immigration.

   
Quote
Jewish immigrants may not export problems to the West, but their antagonists certainly do. Let me ask you this, Bill: if Israel did not exist, how big of a problem do you think most Arabs and/or Muslims would have with the U.S.? Sure, you can't practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis in general don't seem to have a problem with people practicing Christianity here. Which do you think ordinary Saudis have more of a problem with: America's Christian ways, or America's support for Israel?


I have never denied that America's foreign policy (aka serial screwups, although our support of Israel is not one of them) contributes to Muslim anger at America. My point is, so what? For whatever reason, they don't fit in, and that's what matters in immigration policy.

America's foreign policy is not ideal, but some parts ain't gonna change, nor should they. We're not going to stop supporting Israel. Sorry. So Muslims will always hate us for this regardless of our other actions. Besides, do you really think appeasing them will ever work? It doesn't work for Israel when they try it; what makes us any different? They'll just look at us as Dhimmis in waiting (which I intend to establish in future installments) and then jack up the terrorism even more. Your plan of, "Give em what they want, then open the borders" is absolutely suicidal.

Thanks for proving my point for me, though!

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clamboy



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,12:58   

And I would like to thank you, ghost of paley, for reminding me why I am an atheist and an anarchist.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,13:35   

Quote
And I would like to thank you, ghost of paley, for reminding me why I am an atheist and an anarchist.

Actually, I wouldn't mind waving the black flag as long as I got an anarchist's freedom in the bargain. But that's not on the menu; open borders + grim totalitarian society is the soupe du jour. Eat up.  ;)

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,13:40   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Aug. 29 2006,17:03)
Thanks for proving my point for me, though!

I proved your point that Muslims don't "fit in" with American culture? How did I prove that?

As it happens, Bill, I know several Muslims, I dated one, and living in San Francisco, I know that half the small shopkeepers here are Muslim. And guess what? They all seem to fit in just fine with American culture.

Do Islamic extremists fit in well with American culture? Probably not. But in my opinion, Christian extremists don't fit in any better, and are probably responsible for more social upheaval than Muslim extremists are.

What "extremists" fit in well in any culture, even their own?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
don_quixote



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,13:49   

Hmmm... I'm starting to wonder if Christians actually  want Muslims to hate them. There's no better way of increasing a group's identity than by encouraging an opposing group to hate them. (The Oceana versus Eurasia/Eastasia thing. Osama bin Laden is very much the West's Emmanuel Goldstein, IMO.)

If so, it actually makes a lot of sense for Christians to uncritically support Israel, especially if it generates the hatred that results in terrorism. Then they can say "look at what Muslims do. They're EVIL. And as they are attacking us, we must be GOOD. Thus, we must destroy them".

The vilification of ALL things Islam is something I've heard from even the nicest Christians. It's as disturbing as talking to someone who you think is decent, and then they suddenly come out with the most blatant anti-semitism!

Why do theists have so much hatred? Is it something to do with being less rational?

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,13:55   

Whoops, I seem to be violating my policy of ignoring side comments. Let me do it again, because Eric's delusional questions illustrate what's wrong with the West:

 
Quote
Jewish immigrants may not export problems to the West, but their antagonists certainly do. Let me ask you this, Bill: if Israel did not exist, how big of a problem do you think most Arabs and/or Muslims would have with the U.S.? Sure, you can't practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis in general don't seem to have a problem with people practicing Christianity here. Which do you think ordinary Saudis have more of a problem with: America's Christian ways, or America's support for Israel?


Ha, ha, Eric thinks that tossing Israel to the Muslims will solve all of our problems. He's almost right. Here's what most Muslims countries want:

1) Death to Israel if not Israelis;

2) Dhimmitude for the rest of the Infidels;

3) Whatever else comes to mind, especially when they discover that 1) and 2) don't close the economic gap.

Poor little Eric and Clamboy -- they don't realise that their freedom is predicated on Israel and America's continued existence.

[uh-oh....based on what's just come in, they're not gonna like this post....]

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,14:02   

In 30 years I did not see the word Dhimmitude. About a month ago, I saw it for the first time on some WorldNutDaily type winger blog. Since then I've seen it 20 times, always from some winger. Saying Dhimmitude is the latest right-wing fad. Where'd you get that, Paley? Little Green Footballs? Hugh Hewitt?

   
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,14:08   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Aug. 29 2006,18:55)
Ha, ha, Eric thinks that tossing Israel to the Muslims will solve all of our problems. He's almost right. Here's what most Muslims countries want:

1) Death to Israel if not Israelis;

2) Dhimmitude for the rest of the Infidels;

3) Whatever else comes to mind, especially when they discover that 1) and 2) don't close the economic gap.

Poor little Eric and Clamboy -- they don't realise that their freedom is predicated on Israel and America's continued existence.

Bill, I'm not denying that the Israel-Palestinian issue is a serious one, nor am I denying that a large number (plurality? majority? a lot?) of Muslims wish for Israel to cease to exist. That wasn't my point. My point was, Israel's tactics in dealing with the Arab and Muslim world do not appear to be working very well.

I do not advocate withdrawing America's support for Israel. However, and at risk of plunging into a numbing analysis of Middle-Eastern affairs, I will say that America's failure to act as an "honest broker" in the Arab-Israeli conflict has made matters demonstrably worse.

But, back to the subject at hand: in what way have I "proved" your point that Muslims cannot integrate into American society? I have first-hand experience that many Muslims can and do integrate perfectly well into American society, which would seem to undermine your point, wouldn't it?

And a further correction: Israel's existence (or lack thereof) has little to no effect on freedom in America. Freedom existed in America long before Israel did.

And I'm not sure what you mean when you say my freedom depends on America's continued existence. Are you under the impression that America's continued existence is under threat from foreigners? I think it's under a much bigger threat from internal actors (and I suspect you agree with me there).

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,14:21   

Quote
If so, it actually makes a lot of sense for Christians to uncritically support Israel, especially if it generates the hatred that results in terrorism. Then they can say "look at what Muslims do. They're EVIL. And as they are attacking us, we must be GOOD. Thus, we must destroy them".

The vilification of ALL things Islam is something I've heard from even the nicest Christians. It's as disturbing as talking to someone who you think is decent, and then they suddenly come out with the most blatant anti-semitism!

Why do theists have so much hatred? Is it something to do with being less rational?


Oh my -- do you have an appropriate moniker....tilting at windmills and living the fantasy life. First of all, I don't hate Muslims; if it were up to me I'd leave Muslims alone to practice their religion to their heart's content. Problem is, they won't leave us alone. Do you really think that Muslim countries were a model of peace until THE NATION THAT DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME was thrown into their midst? Time to gather 'round, kids, it's time for Uncle Paley to give you the history lesson your teacher couldn't!

 
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Writing over six decades ago, Arthur Jeffery belittled as “the sheerest sophistry” attempts



“..made in some circles in modern days to explain away all the Prophet’s warlike expeditions as defensive wars or to interpret the doctrine of Jihad as merely a bloodless striving in missionary zeal for the spread of Islam…The early Arabic sources quite plainly and frankly describe the expeditions as military expeditions, and it would never have occurred to anyone at that day to interpret them as anything else…To the folk of his day there would thus be nothing strange in Muhammad, as the head of the community of those who served Allah, taking the sword to extend the kingdom of Allah, and taking measures to insure the subjection of all who lived within the borders of what he made the kingdom of Allah...[Muhammad] did at least propose that all Arabia should be the land of Allah and planned vigorous measures to insure that within its borders the religion of Allah should be supreme. Communities of the People of the Book [Book= Bible; thus referring primarily to Jews and Christians] might remain within the land, but they must be in subjection….deriving their rights from the supreme Muslim community, not from any recognized rights of their own. As the Arabs did not accept this without struggle, it had to be forced on them, and that meant war. But war in the cause of Allah is Holy War, and so even in the Prophet’s lifetime we have the question of Jihad…” 3
[...]
However, W.H.T. Gairdner, the renowned early 20th century scholar of Islam, wrote the following discussion of Muhammad’s treatment of POWs, based exclusively on Muslim sources, including the same sura (Q.8:67/68) cited by Akyol:



“After Badr, especially, the greatest vindictiveness and bloodthirstiness were manifested. Many prisoners were slaughtered in cold blood, at least two of them at the personal insistence of Muhammad who had a special grudge against them. The most famous Companions (except Abu Bakr) were then the most truculent. One of them was for burning the prisoners en masse ! [Gairdner’s emphasis] The Prophet checked these excesses. But the very words in which he did so, the very limits set up, show clearly that defenseless prisoners might always be slaughtered in cold blood if they could not get anyone to redeem them. The Sura produced after the event (Q.8:67-68) explicitly commands the slaughter of prisoners on occasions when it is advisable to make an impression by ‘frightfulness’: on such occasions the sin would be to grow rich by accepting ransoms! And there is a whole series of traditions which make out that the ‘leniency’ shown at Badr was a sin, that Mohammed had been against that sin, humane Abu Bakr was the chief offender, and that had that sin been punished, only the whole-hoggers who had urged the slaughter of all the prisoners (‘Umar and Sa’d) would have escaped…the Koran itself recommended the ransoming of war-captives as a form of charity suitable for rich Muslims. But the Badr alternative is always there in the background, and on suitable occasions may always be brought into the foreground. The prisoner of war is mubah damuhu: his life’s essentially forfeit.” 5



And a review of Egyptian high school textbooks in 2002 reveals the classical exegesis on these Qur’anic verses is still being taught to students in non-Azharite (i.e., “non-religious”) as well as Azharite schools.
[...]
But as Robert Spencer notes even W.N. Arafat, himself, believes that Q.33:26 refers to the massacre of the Banu Qurayza prisoners. This modern view is consistent with the opinions of classical Muslim scholars (for eg., all the seminal Muslim Koranic commentators, including Tabari [d. 923], Zamakshary [d.1144 ], Beidawi [d. 1286], Ibn Kathir [d.1373], and Suyuti [d. 1505]). Spencer reminds us that one of the canonical hadith collections (Sahih Bukhari, vol. 5, book 64, no. 4028) also attests to this massacre.
[...]
Al-Mawardi’s writing makes clear that killing of jihad POWs is a primary (i.e., “first”) option based solely upon what is most expedient for the Muslims:
[...]
Aykol also fails to acknowledge that Al-Mawardi was hardly unique, the views of this Shafi’ite jurist being nearly identical to those of  key jurists representing the three other main Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence, including the Hanafites, who prevailed in Ottoman Turkey:
[...]
Ibn Abi Zayd Al_Qayrawani (d. 996), head of the North African Maliki school at Qairuan:



“There is no inconvenience to kill white non-Arabs who have been taken prisoner”. 10



The famous Syrian jurist Ibn Taymiyya (d. 1328) of the Hanbali school under the Mamluks:



“…If a male unbeliever is taken captive during warfare or otherwise, eg.,  as a result of a shipwreck, or because he has lost his way, or as a result of a ruse, then the imam may do whatever he deems appropriate: killing him, enslaving him, releasing him or setting him free for a ransom consisting in either property or people. This is the view of most jurists and it is supported by the Koran and the Sunna…” 11
[...]
These rulings had tangible consequences.


Did they? Let's devote a separate post to them.....

[Eric, I'll address your points after the lesson]

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,15:13   

Picking up where we left off:

   
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These rulings had tangible consequences. For centuries, from the Iberian peninsula to the Indian subcontinent, jihad campaigns waged by Muslim armies against infidel Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Hindus, were punctuated by massacres, including mass throat slittings and beheadings of captives. Here are but a few examples. Non-Muslim (i.e., Christian) prisoners were beheaded, summarily, during a  jihad campaign against Tripoli in the mid-7th century, as chronicled by Ibn Khaldun in his, History of the Berbers and the Moslem Dynasties of Northern Africa:

“Abd-Allah set siege to the city [Tripoli];  but later, unwilling to let himself be diverted from the goal that he had in mind, he gave the order to break camp.  While we were making our preparations, we spied some vessels that had just landed on the shore; immediately we attacked them and threw into the water anyone who was aboard.  They put up some resistance, but then surrendered, and we tied their hands behind their backs.  They were four hundred in number.  Abd-Allah then joined us, and he had their heads cut off.” 12


OK, I'm going to ignore most of the incidents so I can focus on the largest atrocities:

   
Quote
And Amir Timur, during his jihad campaigns through Northern India (1397-99 C.E.) conducted what may have been the greatest mass slaughter of prisoners ever chronicled:

“Next day, Friday the 3rd of the month. I left the fort of Loni and marched to a position opposite to Jahan-numa where I encamped…  I now held a Court…  At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 100,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp…I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left

with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the [Islamic] rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty.  In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword.
When I heard these words I found them in accordance with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the tawachis [drumbeaters] to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death…When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d-din ‘Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives…” 14


   
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The 7th century Chronicler John of Nikiou describes the jihad conquest of Fayyum and Nikiou, including the massacre of non-combatant women and children:


“[In Fayyum] The Ishmaelites attacked, killed the commandant, massacred all his troops and immediately seized the town…Whoever approached them was massacred; they spared neither old men, nor women, nor children…Then the Muslims arrived in Nikiou.  There was not one single soldier to resist them.  They seized the town and slaughtered everyone they met in the street and in the churches – men, women and children, sparing nobody.  Then they went to other places, pillaged and killed all the inhabitants they found…  But let us now say no more, for it is impossible to describe the horrors the Muslims committed when they occupied the island of Nikiou, on Sunday, the eighteenth day of the month of Guenbot, in the fifteenth year of the lunar cycle, as well as the terrible scenes which took place in Cesarea in Palestine.” 19


   
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Professor J.B. Segal reviewed the jihad destruction of the Christian enclave of Edessa in 1144-1146 C.E., during the Crusades, using primary source documentation, including a contemporary account by Michael the Syrian.



“Thirty thousand souls were killed. Women, youths, and children to the number of sixteen thousand were carried into slavery, stripped of their cloths, barefoot, their hands bound, forced to run beside their captors on horses. Those who could not endure were pierced by lances or arrows, or abandoned to wild animals and birds of prey. Priests were killed out of hand or captured; few escaped. The Archbishop of the Armenians was sold at Aleppo…The whole city was given over to looting, ‘..for a whole year..’, resulting in ‘…complete ruin..’. From this disaster the Christian community of Edessa never recovered.” 21


   
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Professor H.Z. Hirschberg includes this summary of a contemporary Judeo-Arabic account by Solomon Cohen (which comports with Arab historian Ibn Baydhaq’s sequence of events), from January 1148 C.E, describing the Muslim Almohad conquests in North Africa, and Spain:



“Abd al-Mumin…the leader of the Almohads after the death of Muhammad Ibn Tumart the Mahdi [note: Ibn Tumart was a cleric whose writings bear a striking resemblance to Khomeini’s rhetoric eight centuries later] …captured Tlemcen [in the Maghreb] and killed all those who were in it, including the Jews, except those who embraced Islam…[In Sijilmasa] One hundred and fifty persons were killed for clinging to their [Jewish] faith…All the cities in the Almoravid [dynastic rulers of North Africa and Spain prior to the Almohads] state were conquered by the Almohads. One hundred thousand persons were killed in Fez on that occasion, and 120,000 in Marrakesh. The Jews in all [Maghreb] localities [conquered]…groaned under the heavy yoke of the Almohads; many had been killed, many others converted; none were able to appear in public as Jews [emphasis added]…Large areas between Seville and Tortosa [in Spain] had likewise [emphasis added] fallen into Almohad hands.” 23


   
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The mid-15th century Hindu chronicle Kanhadade Prabandha included descriptions of a wave of jihad attacks at the end of the 13th century, and first three decades of the 14th century. These campaigns vanquished extensive regions [Malwa, Gujarat, Ranthambhor, Siwana, Jalor, Devagiri, Warangal, Ma’bar, and Ramesvaram], and resulted in the death or enslavement of perhaps millions of Hindus.24 The devastating nature of such attacks, which included deliberate targeting of non-combatants, is captured in this account:



“A farman (firman) was now given to Gori Malik (to sack Bhinmal)…The Turkish [Muslim] invaders entered the town making dreadful din and clamor. Orders were issued clear and terrible: ‘The soldiers shall march into the town spreading terror everywhere! Cut down the Brahmanas [Brahman priests], wherever they may be- performing homa or milking cows! Kill the cows- even those which are pregnant or with newly born calves!’ The Turks ransacked Bhinmal and captured everybody in the sleepy town. Thereafter, Gori Malik gleefully set fire to the town in a wanton display of force and meanness.” 25


   
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Remarkably similar descriptions of jihad massacres of non-combatants in both the pre-modern and modern eras have been recorded from Greece and the Balkans, Asia Minor, Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and the Far East (Malaysia and Indonesia). Indeed the 20th century opened and closed with frank jihad genocides- the Armenian genocide committed by the Ottoman Turks during the initial two decades, and the genocide of southern Sudanese Christians and Animists committed by the Arab Muslim Khartoum government during the final two decades.


Two things: these numbers are probably wildly exaggerated, but they do indicate that Christians don't have a monopoly on atrocity. And yes, many of these incidents are verified by independent sources. Second: I realise that Christians have a dismal humans right record as well -- but isn't this another reason not to mix such potentially volatile cultures? Since everyone likes to bring up the Crusades, let's look into this time period and see what motivated these conflicts:

 
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Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics. They are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance, a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western civilization in general. A breed of proto-imperialists, the Crusaders introduced Western aggression to the peaceful Middle East and then deformed the enlightened Muslim culture, leaving it in ruins. For variations on this theme, one need not look far. See, for example, Steven Runciman’s famous three-volume epic, History of the Crusades, or the BBC/A&E documentary, The Crusades, hosted by Terry Jones. Both are terrible history yet wonderfully entertaining.

So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
[...]
With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne’er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders’ expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.
[...]
It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders’ task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews’ money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.

Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:
[...]
Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres.

It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.
[...]
When the Crusader County of Edessa fell to the Turks and Kurds in 1144, there was an enormous groundswell of support for a new Crusade in Europe. It was led by two kings, Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, and preached by St. Bernard himself. It failed miserably. Most of the Crusaders were killed along the way. Those who made it to Jerusalem only made things worse by attacking Muslim Damascus, which formerly had been a strong ally of the Christians. In the wake of such a disaster, Christians across Europe were forced to accept not only the continued growth of Muslim power but the certainty that God was punishing the West for its sins. Lay piety movements sprouted up throughout Europe, all rooted in the desire to purify Christian society so that it might be worthy of victory in the East.

Crusading in the late twelfth century, therefore, became a total war effort. Every person, no matter how weak or poor, was called to help. Warriors were asked to sacrifice their wealth and, if need be, their lives for the defense of the Christian East. On the home front, all Christians were called to support the Crusades through prayer, fasting, and alms. Yet still the Muslims grew in strength. Saladin, the great unifier, had forged the Muslim Near East into a single entity, all the while preaching jihad against the Christians. In 1187 at the Battle of Hattin, his forces wiped out the combined armies of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem and captured the precious relic of the True Cross. Defenseless, the Christian cities began surrendering one by one, culminating in the surrender of Jerusalem on October 2. Only a tiny handful of ports held out.

The response was the Third Crusade.
[...]
The Crusades of the 13th century were larger, better funded, and better organized. But they too failed. The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do. The tragic events of 1204 closed an iron door between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, a door that even today Pope John Paul II has been unable to reopen. It is a terrible irony that the Crusades, which were a direct result of the Catholic desire to rescue the Orthodox people, drove the two further—and perhaps irrevocably—apart.
[...]
One might think that three centuries of Christian defeats would have soured Europeans on the idea of Crusade. Not at all. In one sense, they had little alternative. Muslim kingdoms were becoming more, not less, powerful in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks conquered not only their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world. One of the great best-sellers of the time, Sebastian Brant’s The Ship of Fools, gave voice to this sentiment in a chapter titled "Of the Decline of the Faith":
[...]
Of course, that is not what happened. But it very nearly did. In 1480, Sultan Mehmed II captured Otranto as a beachhead for his invasion of Italy. Rome was evacuated. Yet the sultan died shortly thereafter, and his plan died with him. In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city. Germany, then, would have been at their mercy.

Yet, even while these close shaves were taking place, something else was brewing in Europe—something unprecedented in human history. The Renaissance, born from a strange mixture of Roman values, medieval piety, and a unique respect for commerce and entrepreneurialism, had led to other movements like humanism, the Scientific Revolution, and the Age of Exploration. Even while fighting for its life, Europe was preparing to expand on a global scale.
[...]
From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies. And yet, both the medieval and the modern soldier fight ultimately for their own world and all that makes it up. Both are willing to suffer enormous sacrifice, provided that it is in the service of something they hold dear, something greater than themselves. Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.


So the Crusades featured plenty of brutality on both sides. We Christians certainly have plenty of blood on our own hands, and our Christian nations have been responsible for their own massacres, genocide, and atrocities. But the remedy is mercy and mutual tolerance, not soft-headedness.

More later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,15:35   

SteveStory:

   
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In 30 years I did not see the word Dhimmitude.


I'm sure you didn't, buttercup.

 
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About a month ago, I saw it for the first time on some WorldNutDaily type winger blog. Since then I've seen it 20 times, always from some winger. Saying Dhimmitude is the latest right-wing fad.


Yeah, seein' a cuppla towers go down has a way of focusin' the mind, even after a few years.

   
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Where'd you get that, Paley? Little Green Footballs? Hugh Hewitt?


                 ;)

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,16:38   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Aug. 29 2006,09:58)
[
I never said that all Muslims are hostile to the West, just a distressingly high percentage.

More hot air.

And what the flock does "hostile to the West" mean?  Do you mean hostile to the US?  Hostile to capitalism?  Hostile to Christianity?  ####, CUBA is hostile to all those things, too.  Do you think CUBANS are unable to integrate?

You're just blithering again, Paley.

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2006,18:09   

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Poor little Eric and Clamboy -- they don't realise


'Realise'? Are you Canadian, or something?

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that their freedom is predicated on Israel and America's continued existence.


Congratulations, the kind of boneheaded horseshit for which we can always count on Paley.

Paley, from whom did we get our freedom before Israel existed in 1948? Did we not have any?

 
Quote
In 30 years I did not see the word Dhimmitude. About a month ago, I saw it for the first time on some WorldNutDaily type winger blog. Since then I've seen it 20 times, always from some winger. Saying Dhimmitude is the latest right-wing fad. Where'd you get that, Paley? Little Green Footballs? Hugh Hewitt?


It's now a jargon buzzword for wingnuts who want to sound all educated-like when they get into their hate rants. I'm surprised I haven't seen Paley use 'Islamofascist' as a synonym for 'Muslim' yet.

 
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Yeah, seein' a cuppla towers go down has a way of focusin' the mind,


Is that your personal euphemism for being an idiot?

Quote

You're just blithering again, Paley.


This is easily of the same quality as when Paley shares with us his fantasies of what liberals are like.

Paley, if we want this horseshit, we can all visit Little Green Footballs. You're wasting our time.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,01:52   

Ghosty (and everyone to an extent),

We are getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY off the topic of this thread.

This thread is set up for GoP to establish his claim that all muslims integrate less well into western society than all other groups.

We are not concerned about who is being mean to who or when they were mean to each other, or even who has been the meanest recently. Nobody should be interested in defending the indefensible (7/7, 9/11, invading Iraq for oil.....oops freedom, yeah freedom) or other such tangents, nor should we (Ghosty, I'm looking at you) be pulling the selective quotation game with respects to holy books of various religious people.

Ghosty, if all you're interested in is "Ooohh look at them foreign darkies with their heathen ways and their funny lingo and their evil heathen religion" then a) you are not going to be able to establish your case, and b) I'm not interested. Nobody is interested in you trying to shore up your prejudices with favourable quote mines. What we ARE interested in is you defending the original claim. Everything we have had so far is at best very slightly relevant to the underlying causes of integration trouble (or lack of). At worst, it's irrelevant to the point of being nothing more than a staging ground for your political screed. Like I said, not interested.

Perhaps you should think about what you mean by "integration" and what groups you are going to select to contrast. Like I said before.

For example, take an hasidic jew and a sunni muslim, the hasidic jew doesn't socialise with the wider community but the sunni muslim does. Which one is integrating better? I pick these examples at randomn and only for illustrative purposes. This is what I mean by defining your criteria for deciding the extent of "integration".

That certain muslims are hostile to the west is undeniable, it doesn't follow therefore that ALL muslims (your claim, see above) are worse at integration than everyone else.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Faid



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Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,04:02   

Quote
Second: I realise that Christians have a dismal humans right record as well -- but isn't this another reason not to mix such potentially volatile cultures?

Er...

Paley, do you also think that Christians do not assimilate in Muslim countries well, and those countries should kick them out in fear of their safety?

Or are you just playing with words here?

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,04:12   

Here's an interesting article from August 25, 2006...five days ago
 
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After the riots in Parisian suburbs and other French cities by mainly Muslim youths late last year, few international and domestic analysts were touting the soundness of the French government's policies toward its Muslim population.
Critics charged French society with discriminating against people of North African descent and Muslims generally. Such discrimination, they claimed, fueled the riots.
Economically Driven Dissatisfaction
However, the Pew Center's survey data paints a different picture of the violence, putting France's treatment of Muslims in a more favorable light.
"When we look at the riots last year in France, they appear to have been heavily economically driven rather than driven by religion -- by the fact that there are very high rates of unemployment among French Muslims rather than by a zealous desire to convert or extinguish those of other faiths," Jodie Allen, a senior editor at Pew, told RFE/RL.
French Muslims, like Muslims in the rest of Europe, are concerned about unemployment. France has an estimated 5 million Muslims, comprising about 8 percent of the population. By contrast, Muslims make up less than 3 percent of the population in the United Kingdom and Denmark.
French Muslims Ready To Assimilate
More than half of French Muslims are concerned about joblessness, according to survey data collected by Pew in April 2006. But unlike their coreligionists elsewhere, a substantial majority embraces the customs of their countrymen.
"Nearly eight in 10 French Muslims generally say they want to adopt French customs," Allen said. "And this high preference for assimilation certainly compares with that in Spain, although Spanish Muslims tend also to come from North Africa. Only 53 percent of Muslims in Spain say they want to adopt Spanish customs. Only 41 percent in Britain say the same about British customs. And nearly 30 percent in Germany say that. So you can see that in some sense the Muslims in France feel more at home in that country."....French Muslims also face unemployment and prejudice. In fact, 37 percent of French Muslims reported a bad experience due to their race, ethnicity, or religion, compared to 28 percent among British Muslims....Few French Muslims perceive a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in French society. Some 72 percent of those surveyed see no conflict, compared with only 49 percent in Great Britain.
Perhaps it is not coincidental then that the broader French public -- some 74 percent -- also sees no conflict, while only 35 percent of the British public agrees with this sentiment.

http://www.speroforum.com/site....gration
I find myself kind of torn here: I dislike organized religions in general and definitely view the theocratic tendencies of Islam as less preferable than living in a "Christian western" state, but I also disagree with Paley's notions of isolationism and Ann Coulter-like fear-mongering. Certainly the history of Islam is replete with wrongdoing (I've always been amazed at the number of American black muslims I've met that have no clue about "Arab" slave-trading)--but that history is not neccessarily a guidepost to the future. Current stats (like those above?) might be better indicators.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
don_quixote



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,05:17   

Quote (Faid @ Aug. 30 2006,09:02)
 
Quote
Second: I realise that Christians have a dismal humans right record as well -- but isn't this another reason not to mix such potentially volatile cultures?

Er...

Paley, do you also think that Christians do not assimilate in Muslim countries well, and those countries should kick them out in fear of their safety?

Or are you just playing with words here?

Good question Faid. I can't wait for GoP's answer.

Gop, I'm glad to have gotten your attention. Perhaps you would be so kind as to address a point Arden made a few days ago:

"My prediction is that GoP would be much happier with hardcore Christian fundamentalists immigrating to this country than he would be with the most moderate Muslims."

Would that be correct?

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,11:11   

OK, let's respond to Louis:

   
Quote
Ghosty (and everyone to an extent),

We are getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY off the topic of this thread.

This thread is set up for GoP to establish his claim that all muslims integrate less well into western society than all other groups.


But how can we measure this without exploring the underlying culture?

Basically, there are three levels of denial operating in these debates:

1) Denial that Islam is an intolerant, militant religion;

2) Denial that Muslims themselves have engaged in many acts of barbarism in order to spread their faith;

3) Denial that Muslims make poor candidates for assimilation into Western society

You want me to focus on number 3) to the exclusion of cultural and historical issues, but I don't think that's possible. Culture and historical baggage (issues 1 and 2) offer excellent clues to whether assimilation (point 3) has any realistic hope of succeeding. Like it or not, people assimilate differently, and culture is a large reason why. Don't worry, though: I plan to support 3 in the future. I'm just trying to eliminate any wiggle room in the meantime.

   
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We are not concerned about who is being mean to who or when they were mean to each other, or even who has been the meanest recently. Nobody should be interested in defending the indefensible (7/7, 9/11, invading Iraq for oil.....oops freedom, yeah freedom) or other such tangents, nor should we (Ghosty, I'm looking at you) be pulling the selective quotation game with respects to holy books of various religious people.


This is the kind of stunt you promised you wouldn't pull. You may not wish to examine Islamic scriptures, but don't accuse me of "quotemining" without backing it up. If you think I'm misrepresenting the Koran, then show me where....otherwise, you're behaving dishonestly.

   
Quote
Ghosty, if all you're interested in is "Ooohh look at them foreign darkies with their heathen ways and their funny lingo and their evil heathen religion" then a) you are not going to be able to establish your case, and b) I'm not interested. Nobody is interested in you trying to shore up your prejudices with favourable quote mines. What we ARE interested in is you defending the original claim. Everything we have had so far is at best very slightly relevant to the underlying causes of integration trouble (or lack of). At worst, it's irrelevant to the point of being nothing more than a staging ground for your political screed. Like I said, not interested.


Once again, it is your responsibility to show me where I misrepresented the evidence. By the way, nice ad hom....you must be pretty frustrated with your inability to counter my evidence....why else play the race card (while dealing it from the bottom of the deck)? By the way, here's some more evidence of the cultural barriers that Muslims immigrants face:

   
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One of the more controversial topics for Muslims in the West is the punishment for apostasy from Islam. Muslims living in the Mideast have no problem with the concept of putting apostates to death. But to Muslims living in the West it is an embarrassing Islamic edict. The West values freedom of thought and freedom of speech are two virtues that have never blossomed under Islam. Consequently when asked about the Islamic law for apostates Muslims in the West hide behind excuses such as "only a true Islamic state can execute apostates", or "punishment was carried out because those apostates were threats to the new Islamic state, and it is not needed anymore".


What exactly was the law during Muhammad's and the Caliph's time? What were the requirements for a death sentence to be carried out? Was the sentence only for a short period of time? Was it only to be administered under a "true Islamic state", or did it apply to anyone who had left Islam? A close examination of the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat will show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam, either under an Islamic government, or not, was execution.
[...]
To begin with, the Quran does not come out and explicitly state that apostates should be murdered. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy, and they shed some light on the punishment for apostates.
[snip suras]
[...]
It is from the Hadith that we draw our understanding and information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith, from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.


Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."


Bukhari, volume 9, #37

"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....


In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reverters from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:

"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed.And the obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said - ....

Following this chapter, a number of Quranic verses are given, among them are some already mentioned. They are 3:86-89, 3:100, 4:137, 5:54, 16:106-110, 2:217.


Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."


Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....


Bukhari, volume 9, #64

Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you, (not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ‘During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.’"


Bukhari, volume 9, #271 [This one is similar to #58]

Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Muadh Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam, and then reverted back to Judaism." Muadh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His messenger."


Bukhari, Chapter 26, from the Book of Mutual Consultation, page 339, following Hadith # 461

"The Statement of Allah... 42:32, 3:159, ...The prophet said, "If someone changes his religion, then kill them....."


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OTHER REFERENCES


FROM THE SIRAT RASULALLAH AND THE KITAB AL-TABAQAT AL-KABIR


After Muhammad took Mecca, he ordered a number of people to be killed. Several of them were apostates. Here is the background.


Muhammad ordered the execution of 10 people when he took Mecca. Here is the list of names found in Ibn Sa'd "Tabaqat".

The quote is from the Tabaqat, Vol. 2, page 168.

"The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca], and prohibited fighting. He ordered six men and four women to be killed, they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd Allah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7) Hind Bint Utbah, (8) Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah.


THE SIRAT RASULALLAH GIVES SOME DETAILS BEHIND THE LIST OF NAMES


The information below corresponds to # 3 on the list.

"The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Kaba. Among them was Abdullah Sa'd, brother of the B. Amir Luayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca] and fled to Uthman Affan whose foster brother he was. The latter hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he [Muhammad] said yes [granting Abdullah immunity from the execution order].


Yes this source is Christian, but they quote directly from the Quran and Hadith. So if they're quotemining, you should have no trouble showing me where. But don't forget the testimony of Muslim apostates:

   
Quote
Not until few years ago I used to think that my faith in Islam was not based on blind imitation but rather was the result of years of investigation and research. The fact that I had read a lot of books on Islam, written by people whose thoughts I approved of and delving into philosophies that were within my comfort zone, emphasized my conviction that I had found the truth. All my bias research confirmed my faith. Just like other Muslims I used to believe that to learn about anything one has to go to the source. Of course the source of Islam is Quran and the books written by Muslim scholars. Therefore, I felt no need to look elsewhere in order to find the truth, as I was convinced that I have already found it. As Muslims say “Talabe ilm ba’d az wossule ma’loom mazmoom”. The search of knowledge after gaining it is foolish
[...]
One may think that the dreadful penalty mentioned here pertains to the next word. But Muhammad made sure that these people received their penalty in this world as well. See the following:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:

I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 260:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 261:

Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you sh ould join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.

And from Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4339

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.

The following is very disturbing. I dare to say any man who read it and is not taken aback with disgust has a long way to go to become a human.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348

”Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood".


I felt the above story was a manifest injustice. Muhammad condoned a man killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that she insulted him!?

(Arabs used to sleep with their maid slaves. Quran perpetuates this tradition Q.33: 52 “It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.” Muhammad himself slept with Mariyah the maid slave of Hafsa his wife without marrying her.)

Forgiving someone for killing another human being just because he said she insulted Muhammad is unacceptable. What if that man was lying to escape punishment? What dose this story say about Muhammad’s sense of Justice? Imagine how many innocent women, were killed by their husbands during these 1400 years who escaped punishment accusing their murdered wives of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith has made them get away with it.

Here is another one.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4349

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.


It was not easy to read these stories and not be moved. There is no reason to believe that all these stories were fabricated. Why should believers, who have tried to depict their prophet as a compassionate man fabricate so many stories that would make him look like ruthless tyrant?

I could no more accept the brutal treatment of those who chose not to accept Islam. Faith is a personal matter. I could no more accept that the punishment of someone who criticizes any religion must be death.

See how Muhammad dealt with the unbelievers.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4359

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment, which he deserves.”


How could a messenger of God maim and crucify people on the account that they resist accepting him? Could such person be really a messenger of God? Wasn’t there a better man with more moral an ethical fortitude to bear this mighty responsibility?

I could not accept the fact that Muhammad slaughtered 900 Jews in one day, after he captured them in a raid that he started. I read the following story and I shivered.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair

Also I found following story shocking.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4396

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him.
So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.

Seems that Muhammad passed judgment before hearing the case. Also by cutting a thief’s hand he is left with no other means to earn his bread except begging, which would be difficult since he is defamed as a thief and so hated by people. Therefore re-offending becomes his only means of livelihood.


But here are direct links to the texts in question, so the skeptic may check for himself.

 
Quote
That certain muslims are hostile to the west is undeniable, it doesn't follow therefore that ALL muslims (your claim, see above) are worse at integration than everyone else.


No, but relative frequencies play a role in this debate, and culture explains the differential frequencies. By the way, here's a debate on some of these issues.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,11:27   

D.Q.

 
Quote
Gop, I'm glad to have gotten your attention. Perhaps you would be so kind as to address a point Arden made a few days ago:

"My prediction is that GoP would be much happier with hardcore Christian fundamentalists immigrating to this country than he would be with the most moderate Muslims."

Would that be correct?


Arfin's just trolling; he'll respond with an irrelevant witticism no matter what I say. But to answer your question: I would prefer the hardcore fundy Christian (after all, I am one myself), but mostly because many moderate Muslims have a dreadful habit of "flipping" into hardcore militancy once they become citizens. This is not a prejudice -- it's a fact. Perhaps they were lying about their beliefs, or perhaps they were horrified by the moral laxity they saw when they settled in. But whatever the reason, it's a very real problem and no one has a clue on how to detect Western-friendly Muslims ahead of time.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
don_quixote



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2006,11:45   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Aug. 30 2006,16:27)
D.Q.

   
Quote
Gop, I'm glad to have gotten your attention. Perhaps you would be so kind as to address a point Arden made a few days ago:

"My prediction is that GoP would be much happier with hardcore Christian fundamentalists immigrating to this country than he would be with the most moderate Muslims."

Would that be correct?


Arfin's just trolling; he'll respond with an irrelevant witticism no matter what I say. But to answer your question: I would prefer the hardcore fundy Christian (after all, I am one myself), but mostly because many moderate Muslims have a dreadful habit of "flipping" into hardcore militancy once they become citizens. This is not a prejudice -- it's a fact. Perhaps they were lying about their beliefs, or perhaps they were horrified by the moral laxity they saw when they settled in. But whatever the reason, it's a very real problem and no one has a clue on how to detect Western-friendly Muslims ahead of time.

Thank you, GoP, for realising that you are a "fundy Christian" (and I don't mean that sarcastically). Now, would you mind responding to my previous comment:

"I think you may end up having to conclude that groups of people from any faith don't integrate into societies, if they are fundamentalists. Integration is about compromise. Moderates of any faith are more likely to integrate into any society (and indeed enhance it). Fundamentalists are more likely to want society to change for them, in a way that reflects their world-view, and thus conflicts arise."

Do you agree?

  
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