afdave
Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006
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It is obvious to me that many of you do not accept "Cosmic Fine Tuning" and "Biological Machines" as evidence that supports the idea of an Intelligent Creator (or at least Designer), in spite of the fact that Talk Origins does not refute Cosmic Fine Tuning when we all know they would if they could, and many scientists (non-YEC/ID) have written about the wonders of biological "machines" and "factories". Soooo ....
Let me backtrack and re-establish those points first.
**********************COSMIC FINE TUNING*******************************
Again, Meyer summarizes evidence for Cosmic Fine Tuning quite well ...Quote | THE BIG BANG AND GENERAL RELATIVITY During the twentieth century, a quiet but remarkable shift has occurred in science. Evidence from cosmology, physics, and biology now tells a very different story than did the science of the late nineteenth century. Evidence from cosmology now supports a finite, not an infinite universe, while evidence from physics and biology has reopened the question of design. In 1915-16, Albert Einstein shocked the scientific world with his theory of general relativity (Chaisson & McMillan 1993: 604-5). Though Einstein s theory challenged Newton s theory of gravity in many important respects, it also implied (as did Newton s) that the universe could not be static, but instead was simultaneously expanding and decelerating. According to relativity theory, massive bodies alter the curvature of space so as to draw nearby objects to them. Einstein s conception of gravity implied that all material bodies would congeal unless the effects of gravitation were continually counteracted by the expansion of space itself (Eddington 1930). Einstein s theory thus implied an expanding, not a static, universe. Einstein disliked this idea, in part for philosophical reasons. An actively expanding universe implied a beginning to the expansion, and thus, to the universe. As the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann (1922: 377-86) showed, general relativity implied that, in the words of Stephen Hawking, at some time in the past (between ten and twenty thousand million years ago) the distance between neighboring galaxies must have been zero (1988: 46). Relativity theory suggested a universe of finite duration racing outward from an initial beginning in the distant past. For Einstein, however, a definite beginning to the universe seemed so counterintuitive that he introduced an arbitrary factor in his theory to eliminate the implication. In 1917, he postulated a repulsive force, expressed by his cosmological constant, of precisely the magnitude necessary to counteract the expansion that his theory implied.1 Like Newton, Einstein inadvertenly concealed an important cosmological reality implicit in his theory. Yet the heavens would soon talk back. In the 1920s-30s, Edwin Hubble, a young lawyer-turned-astronomer, made a series of observations that shocked even Einstein. While working at the Mt. Wilson Observatory in Southern California, Hubble discovered for the first time that our Milky Way galaxy is but one of many galaxies spread throughout the universe. More important, he discovered that the galaxies beyond the Milky Way are rapidly receding from ours. Hubble noticed that the light from these distant galaxies was shifted toward the red-end of the electromagnetic spectrum. This red-shift suggested recessional movement, for the same reason the so-called Doppler Effect that a train whistle drops in pitch as a train moves away from a stationary observer. Hubble also discovered that the rate at which these other galaxies retreat from ours is directly related to their distance from us just as if the universe were undergoing a spherical expansion in all directions from a singular explosive beginning the big bang (1929: 168-73). During the remainder of the twentieth century, physicists and cosmologists formulated several alternatives to the Big Bang theory that preserved an infinite universe. Some of these cosmological models were formulated for explicitly philosophical reasons. For example, in the late 1940s, Fred Hoyle, Thomas Gold, and Hermann Bondi proposed the steady state model to explain galactic recession without invoking the objectionable notion of a beginning. According to their theory, as the universe expands new matter is generated spontaneously in the space between expanding galaxies. On this view, our galaxy is composed of matter that spontaneously popped into existence between other galaxies, which in turn came out of the empty space between other galaxies, and so on (Bondi & Gold 1948; Hoyle 1948). Thus, the steady state theory denied the need to postulate a singular beginning, and reaffirmed an infinite universe without beginning or end. By the mid-1960s, however, Hoyle s theory had run aground as the result of a discovery made by two employees of Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey. According to the steady state model, the density of the universe must always remain constant, hence the creation of new matter as the universe expands. Yet in 1965, the Bell Lab researchers, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, found what physicists believed to be the radiation left over from the universe s initial hot, high-density state (1965: 419-21). The discovery of this cosmic background radiation, at roughly 2.7 degrees Kelvin equivalent, proved decisive. Physicist George Gamow had predicted its existence as a consequence of the Big Bang (1946: 572-73). Yet advocates of the steady state acknowledged that, given their model, such radiation should not exist. The steady state theory also implied that galaxies should have radically different ages, but advances in observational astronomy have revealed that galactic ages cluster narrowly in the middle-age range. By the 1970s, even Bondi, Gold, and Hoyle had abandoned their theory (Kragh 1993: 403). Following the demise of the steady state model, the oscillating universe model arose as an alternative to a finite universe. Advocates of this model envisioned a universe that would expand, gradually decelerate, shrink back under the force of its own gravitation, and then, by some unknown mechanism, reinitiate its expansion, on and on, ad infinitum. But, as physicist Alan Guth showed, our knowledge of entropy suggests that the energy available to do the work would decrease with each successive cycle (Guth & Sher 1983: 505-7). Thus, presumably the universe would have reached a nullifying equilibrium long ago if it had indeed existed for an infinite amount of time. Further, recent measurements suggest that the universe has only a fraction about one-fifth of the mass required to create a gravitational contraction in the first place (Peebles 1993: 475-83; Coles & Ellis 1994: 609-13; Sawyer 1992: A5; Ross 1993: 58). Prior to the formulation of the oscillating universe theory, three astrophysicists, Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose, published a series of papers that explicated the implications of Einstein s theory of general relativity for space and time as well as matter and energy (Hawking & Penrose 1970). Previously, physicists like Friedmann showed that the density of the universe would approach an infinite value as one extrapolated the state of the universe back in time. In a series of papers written between 1966-70, Hawking and his colleagues showed that as one extrapolated back in time the curvature of space also approached infinity. But an infinitely curved space corresponds to a radius (within a sphere, for example) of zero and thus to no spatial volume. Further, since in general relativity space and time are inextricably linked, the absence of space implies the absence of time. Moreover, neither matter nor energy can exist in the absence of space. Thus, Hawking s result suggested that general relativity implies that the universe sprang into existence a finite time ago from literally nothing, at least nothing physical. In brief, general relativity implies an absolute beginning of time, before which neither time and space, nor matter and energy, would have existed. The space-time theorem of general relativity was, of course, conditional. It stated that, if general relativity obtains for the universe, then space and time themselves must have originated in the same initial explosion that created matter and energy. In a series of experiments, beginning just two years after Einstein published his results and continuing on to the present, the probable error of general relativity (estimated quantitatively) has shrunk from 10 to 1 to .05 percent, to a confirmation out to the fifth decimal place. Increasingly accurate tests conducted by NASA, such as the hydrogen maser detector carried by a NASA rocket in 1980 and 1994, have continued to shrink the probable error associated with the theory (Ross 1993: 66-67; Vessor 1980: 2081-84). Thus, general relativity now stands as one of the best confirmed theories of modern science. Yet its philosophical implications, and those of the Big Bang theory, are staggering. Taken jointly, general relativity and the Big Bang theory provide a scientific description of what Christian theologians have long described in doctrinal terms as creatio ex nihilo Creation out of nothing (again, nothing physical). These theories place a heavy demand on any proposed causal explanation of the universe, since the cause of the beginning of the universe must transcend time, space, matter, and energy.Link to article |
Is this refuted at Talk Origins? No ... all he does at the end of the paragraph is point out in effect "well, maybe that's true in OUR universe, but what about other universes?" Now I don't want to get into other funky ideas like parallel universes as Faid tried to get me to do. My point is made by noting simply that T.O. agrees that Yes, in fact, OUR universe is fine tuned for life. Here's the T.O piece again.
Quote | In recent years, creationist theologians, and even a few physicists, have heavily promoted what they claim is a remarkable fine-tuning of the basic laws and constants of physics, without which life as we know it would never have developed (Barrow, 1986; Rolston III). If the universe had appeared with slight variations in the strengths of the fundamental forces or the masses of elementary particles, that universe would be pure hydrogen at one extreme, or pure helium at the other. Neither would have allowed for the eventual production of heavy elements, such as carbon, necessary for life. Similarly, if gravity had not been many orders of magnitude weaker than electromagnetism, stars would not have lived long enough to produce the elements of life. Long before they could fabricate heavy chemical elements, stars would have collapsed. Only the fact that the gravitational force was forty orders of magnitude weaker prevented this from happening. In a calculation similar to Hoyle's, mathematician Roger Penrose has estimated that the probability of a universe with our particular set of physical properties is one part in 1010123 (Penrose 1989: 343). However, neither Penrose nor anyone else can say how many of the other possible universes formed with different properties could still have lead to some form of life. If it is half, then the probability for life is fifty percent. Link to article |
**********************BIOLOGICAL MACHINES********************************
Again we have numerous non-YEC/non-ID authors talking about all the wonderful "adaptations" and "molecular machines" and "molecular factories" and many of them trying very hard to say "these LOOK designed, but trust us ... they are not (wink wink)." I won't bore you with Denton and Behe's examples again, but I will repeat this one. Bruce Alberts, President of the National Academy of Sciences, introduced this issue with an article entitled, The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines. In his article, Alberts admits that Quote | We have always underestimated cells . . . . The entire cell can be viewed as afactory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines . . . Why do we call the large protein assemblies that underlie cell function protein machines? Precisely because, like machines invented by humans to deal efficiently with the macroscopic world these protein assemblies contain highly coordinated moving parts (Alberts, Bruce. 1998. The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines: Preparing the NextGeneration of Molecular Biologists. Cell 92 (8 February): 291-94). |
And again, we have Richard Dawkins standing with Paley in amazement at nature's innovations, spending an entire chapter on the intricacies of bat echolocation, then basically saying "We know this LOOKS like a duck, WALKS like a duck, and QUACKS like a duck, but let me spend the next 8 chapters convincing you it IS NOT a duck."
Come guys, this seems like snake oil at its best.
***********************OUR EVIDENCE SO FAR****************************
We observe Cosmic Fine Tuning and we say "Hmmmm ... what a conicidence that all these parameters are just right for life to exist. If any of them were off, we would all die. How can this just be coincidence? Maybe its not!"
We observe Biological Machines and we say "Hmmm ... these are pretty sophisticated and capable little jiggers. They exhibit many technologies FAR beyond some of our own 21st century technology. How do they do that? Could these have self-assembled from the 100 or so elements on the periodic table by themselves. Hmmm ... pretty unlikely. I wonder if they could be designed? Wow! What a thought!"
Now I realize we still have a LONG way to go to prove the God of the Bible, but let's not even go there now ... we'll get there at the right time. The only thing I'm trying to do now is show you ...
HOW UNREASONABLE SOUNDING IT IS TO NOT CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF AN INTELLIGENT DESIGNER
Forget "God" for now ... forget the Bible for now ... forget inerrancy, and the Flood and all the rest ... let's just deal with this one basic issue. Yes, Eric, we're going to get to age of the earth and all those other things, but let's just get this one out of the way first ... otherwise, the rest doesn't matter.
The two pieces of evidence -- Cosmic Fine Tuning and Bilogical Machines seem HUGE to me.
Can you really with a straight face rule out the possiblity of an Intelligent Designer (even a super alien or a super computer in space) ??
This seems like a massive logical mistake to me.
-------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com
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