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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > ID, anti-evolution and you

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,19:23    Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 22 2007,19:00) Were you aware that Justice Clarence Thomas feels it would be constitutional for states to declare a state-wide religion?  Scalia is a little less radical than that, but not much. This right-leaning Supreme Court just held up a federal law banning certain medical procedures regardless of the risk to a pregnant woman's health. Why are you so certain they would refrain from deferring to the "sense of the senate" (like they did for Guantanamo prisoners) and reject an "explain (not teach) the controversy" argument in a school board case? I am quite aware of the Supreme Court.  I'm also quite aware that the Republicrat Party has, in every case, rejected the social agenda of the fundies (they KNOW it would be political suicide to implement any of it) -- to the point where the fundies themselves are now griping about it.  And the current Supreme COurt does what the Republicrat bigwigs tell it to do. The Supreme Court is not stupid.  They know that dismantling the separation of church and state will kill the Republicrat Party, dead. The Republicrats can preach about it all they want.  But they won't do it.  They know better. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,19:26    Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 22 2007,19:00) I watched the Ohio situation pretty closely (since I live there).  I would be surprised to learn it reached the inside of a courtroom.  Maybe I am wrong and please let me know if I am. It didn't.  The ID supporters knew it would never survive the inside of a courtroom. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,20:02    Quote For Georgia, I presume you are talking about the Cobb sticker case.  That was mostly decided on the second plank of the Lemon Test (religious motive). I think we should count ourselves lucky Cobb settled the case (religious organizations were begging them to take their money and continue the appeals). That would have ended the same way as Dover. The only way they could get what they want is to prove that evolution is less supported than other scientific theories. In any of these cases you have to ask the question why does the overwhelming majority of the scientific community disagree, and the answer isn't that it's an atheist conspiracy. The best they could have got is a general 'this textbook contains science...' disclaimer.

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,20:35    Hi Chris...     Quote The only way they could get what they want is to prove that evolution is less supported than other scientific theories. Sorry, but I have to disagree.  The courts can't protect against School Boards being stupid.  If they want to teach their students that there are only nine planets and Saturn is the only one with rings around it or that PI is exactly 22/7, there is nothing the courts could do about it as long is there is no evidence of religion. I don't know why you guys are so certain we will always prevail.  Even at Dover, with all the coverage and evidence a large percentage of people voted to retain the old school board.  We may be right, but that doesn't mean we are popular.  And, bluntly, I don't trust the current Supreme Court one bit.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,20:46    Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 22 2007,20:35)  The courts can't protect against School Boards being stupid.  If they want to teach their students that there are only nine planets and Saturn is the only one with rings around it or that PI is exactly 22/7, there is nothing the courts could do about it as long is there is no evidence of religion. But it is precisely because of your last four words that anti-evolution will never win in court.  You're quite right that it's not illegal to be stupid.  It's not illegal to teach stupid science.  Nor will it ever be. But alas for the IDers, ID was not rejected by the courts because it was bad science, because it was stupid, or even because it was wrong -- it was rejected by the courts precisely because it is religion.  Nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. As I noted before, the only thing the anti-evolutioners want is to preach.  It is utterly completely impossible for them to preach without . . . well . . . preaching.  And preaching in schools is illegal.  Period. The entire history of anti-evolutionism has been a desperate search for SOME legal wording that they think will allow them to preach while denying that they are preaching.  It is an impossible task.  (shrug) It is why they will never win. There is only ONE way that they can win -- if the Supreme Court utterly rejects separation of church and state. And if that happens, "science education" will be the LEAST of our problems.  At that point, democracy itself is no longer existent -- it is replaced by theocracy.  "Science education" will very quickly fall to the very bottom of the long list of things we will lose.  All the people who will end up behind barbed wire won't give two hoots in #### whether evolution is being taught in school classrooms.  They will have far more immediate and pressing problems . . . . And under those circumstances, we as a society are justified in using whatever means become necessary in order to overthrow theocracy and return to the rule of consitutional democracy. That, indeed, is the one reason why I have hope.  No matter HOW all-powerful the fundies become, no matter HOW much social, political, military and police force they might have, they are not bulletproof.  If you shoot them, they die just like everyone else does. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,20:56    Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 22 2007,20:35)  Even at Dover, with all the coverage and evidence a large percentage of people voted to retain the old school board.  We may be right, but that doesn't mean we are popular.   Alas, there will ALWAYS be stupid people who believe idiotic things.   Decades of science education haven't changed that in the past, and won't change it in the future.  The idiots will always be with us. But, as I noted before, even when it comes to idiotic things that people believe, the anti-evolutioners are second-rate at best.  A higher percentage of the US population believes that space aliens are kidnapping people from their beds, than believe that evolution is the work of the Devil.  About as many people still think that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9-11 attacks, as beleive in creationism  or ID.  DI's anti-evolution tomes sell fewer copies than do books about pyramid power or flying saucers or ESP. It has, alas, NOT been "science education" that has kept creationism out of classrooms.  It has been a handful of lawyers and a smaller handful of Federal judges.  Indeed, that has been the ONLY thing that has kept creationism out of classrooms. Constitutional law worked, just as it was intended to.   If constitutional law STOPS working, then whether or not evolution (or any other pseudoscience) is taught in schools, will quickly become the LEAST of our problems.  We will quickly have far more important things on our minds. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,21:04    Hi Lenny, Quote A higher percentage of the US population believes that space aliens are kidnapping people from their beds, than believe that evolution is the work of the Devil. I don't know if I believe this or not, but thanks for trying to cheer me up. Going to bed now. Good Night and God Bless

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,21:10    Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 22 2007,20:35)  And, bluntly, I don't trust the current Supreme Court one bit. Nor should you. But I think we CAN trust the Republicrat Party's political self-interest.  And they know that it is in their political self-interest NOT to pass any of the fundie's social agenda. Over the past six years, the Republicrats had total power under a virtual one-party state.  They controlled the White House, they controlled both branches of Congress, they controlled most of the Federal judiciary.  They could have literally passed anything they wanted to -- anything at all --- and nobody, not the Democans, not the Libertarians, NOBODY -- could have stopped them. And yet, they didn't pass ANY of the fundie agenda -- to the point that Dobson is already bitching about it so much that he's threatening to leave the Republicrat Party. And why did the Republicrats not pass any of it?  Because they DO NOT WANT TO.  They know that it would be political suicide, and the Republicrats are not about to commit political suicide just to keep the nutters happy. Even in the recent Supreme Court decision that everyone is pissing their pants about, the Supreme Court didn't actually DO anything for the fundies.  They could, after all, have done just what the fundies have been demanding of them for decades --- they could have simply overturned Roe v Wade, and nobody could have stopped them.  Instead, they simply threw a sop to the fundies to smooth the ruffled fundie feathers, by banning a rarely-used procedure that was mostly a symbolic issue anyway.  That way, the fundies will calm down, they'll keep those votes and checks coming, the Republicrats can use it as a fundraising point, and nothing has really changed -- and the Republicrats won't be committing political suicide by imposing a policy that the public simply doesn't support. In exactly the same way that the Republicrats keep introducing lots and lots of bills demanding that ID/creationism be taught, knowing full well that none of those bills will ever get out of committee (indeed, knowing full well that the Republicrats don't WANT them to get out of committee). The Republicrats aren't stupid.  Even if the fundies are. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,22:07    While I usually find Lenny obnoxious, I do wish to support his point here. The far right has pushed christianism, and the Republicans have pretended to support them, but push came to shove, and they didn't give a shit what the christianists said. A few political appointments here and there, some abstinence guys, but by and large, the GOP has used the christianists, and the christianists, starting with David Kuo's book, have started to realize that they've been played. It's falling down around them, though, this support for Bush, and the next few years are going to feature a reimagining of the Republican party, to a more centrist version, I think.

Robert O'Brien Posts: 348 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 22 2007,23:20    Quote (guthrie @ April 22 2007,05:14) I'm curious Robert, at which point do you think he flew off the rails?  I'm sure you appreciate that to most of us here he did so as soon as he started publishing on ID. Bill's "street theater" post was the beginning of the end for me. The faux pas since then, including the infamous flatulence animation, have only served to cement my disappointment and disillusionment with him. -------------- Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,00:09    Quote (Robert O'Brien @ April 23 2007,07:20)     Quote (guthrie @ April 22 2007,05:14) I'm curious Robert, at which point do you think he flew off the rails?  I'm sure you appreciate that to most of us here he did so as soon as he started publishing on ID. Bill's "street theater" post was the beginning of the end for me. The faux pas since then, including the infamous flatulence animation, have only served to cement my disappointment and disillusionment with him. FOX PAR- EH? ROUND THESE PARTS ONLY #### YANKEES TALK LIKE THAT. HOMO P.S. DEMBSKI IS NOT A YANKEE..... ALTHOUGH HE LOOKS LIKE ONE....BUT HE'S A REAL MAN AND HE'S WELCOME ON MY SCURVY SLOOP ANY TIME. P.P.S ARDEN IS A #### YANKEE TOO AND SO IS HIS BOYFRIEND RICHARD T HUGE. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 23 2007,08:52    Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 23 2007,01:35) Hi Chris...       Quote The only way they could get what they want is to prove that evolution is less supported than other scientific theories. Sorry, but I have to disagree.  The courts can't protect against School Boards being stupid.  If they want to teach their students that there are only nine planets and Saturn is the only one with rings around it or that PI is exactly 22/7, there is nothing the courts could do about it as long is there is no evidence of religion. I agree there are plenty of things that they could teach that would just make them look stupid, but when they start singling out evolution, it is virtually impossible to hide the religious motivations. If it went to court they would either have to admit that they were stupid in which case they'd get thrown out, or argue the case, which would mean using ID arguments. Of course the most likely third option is that you will have plenty of evidence of the board's religious motives.   Quote I don't know why you guys are so certain we will always prevail. There is always a chance that a case could be assigned a fundementalist judge who would side with antievolution but its pretty unlikely I would have thought.

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