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  Topic: Cultism and child abuse, Is extreme indoctrination child abuse?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,16:08   

Quote
yes, but I'm still unsure how to answer your original question.


I don't think I was actually looking for a magical answer, rather I was looking for discussion on the broader principle, while using my self in particular as example.

What is the difference between someone who never leaves fundyism/cultism whatever, and a person who wakes up one day and says "hey, wait a minute..."

With that, I believe I'm off to bed.

I bid you all good evening, and look forward to continuing this discussion.   :)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,16:16   

He's doing it, he's just doing an awful job of it.

Here's another example of why, moment to moment, these kinds of rationalizations can appear reasonable to the creobot (This is a hypothetical example, don't bother telling me that I got a detail or two wrong, that's not the point), and reduce cognitive dissonance:

Suppose you know that Potassium decays into Argon, and that argon is a gas at the temperatures where Potassium is molten, and you know the earth used to be molten, so you look at Potassium deposits and you find a certain percentage of Argon mixed in, and you know the half-life, and you know any mixed-in argon gas would have escaped during the molten stage, so you do the calculations and lo and behold, the calculation says the rock formed 4 billion years ago, which you know various other ways was when the earth was molten. Now, if you don't have any preexisting beliefs this interferes with, you can just accept the datum. One more fact to file away. But say this conclusion violates the foundational beliefs you have about the world. If this is right, everything you know about the universe and your place in it is wrong. Under those circumstances, it's not hard at all to insert a small monkey wrench. You tell yourself that some unknown circumstance trapped argon in the molten potassium. Some pressure, or confinement, or unknown physical chemistry rate function. Such an unknown process isn't impossible, is it? So which is better? Allow this unknown possibility, or face the obliteration of your worldview? From that perspective, it looks perfectly reasonable. Accept this tiny thing without evidence, and preserve numerous and important beliefs you have, which give you comfort, connect you to a community, etc etc.

   
sir_toejam



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Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,16:21   

Quote
One more fact to file away. But say this conclusion violates the foundational beliefs you have about the world. If this is right, everything you know about the universe and your place in it is wrong.


Is that why the gov. refuses to show us the aliens they found in area 51?

sorry, had to pop that out there. couldn't resist. :D

I understand your argument, but have this to say as a less flippant repsonse:

the actual belief itself is not what is at issue, but rather how it is defended.

as nick pointed out above; it's not the thought, but rather the actions that are significant.

I don't care if the murderer is mormon.

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,16:34   

Well, in the above example, it's an invention of a tiny belief, which removes an incompatibility between big beliefs. It's a reliance on an x factor to explain something. It's an inferential thing people do all the time. You believe that your car, in an unbroken state, works, and so when you get in and turn the key and it doesn't work, you say, Ah, unknown part x is broken, you don't reevaluate the bigger idea that unbroken cars work. The problem with the creobots is they litter their brains with these x-factors to preserve the religious beliefs which don't easily fit the evidence. They wind up with all kinds of special pleads all over the place.

   
Joe the Ordinary Guy



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Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,16:38   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 27 2006,20:34)
Relatedly, what's the difference between someone who can get out, and someone who can't?  I'm now wondering what made me different than anyone else.

Broadly restated, this could be:

“What is the difference between someone who CAN change one or more personally-held beliefs, and someone who CANNOT make such a change.”

Because THAT’S what we’re looking at here; some people can change a belief and some cannot. The very nature of practicing science requires you to look at your results and change your hypothesis if need be. Thus, scientists get a fair amount of practice at this, and may be quite good at it. They don’t take it personally.

Consider, then, the requirements of the job of Minister (or Priest, or Vicar, or Swami): If you are representing a thousands-of-years-old tradition, and you are charged with carrying it forward, the very nature of your job requires that you do NOT change your opinions on any of it, ever. It is true and eternal, and it is not your place to question it in any way. You probably get good at it.

And because both science and ministry are practiced by human beings, there is some, let’s say, VARIETY in the details.  Some scientists compartmentalize their religious beliefs, some ministers compartmentalize their real-world practicality. Some don’t, and are eventually drawn more completely towards religious or secular belief.

And of course, this ability or inability to change a belief is not confined to scientists and ministers; it would have to be found in varying degrees in all people. But not all people are called upon to change or resist change as frequently, and so most of us muddle through life being flexible in some things and rigid in others. Perhaps the conflict has erupted between science and religion because their practitioners are at the extremes of the ability.

  
sir_toejam



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Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,17:02   

Quote
They wind up with all kinds of special pleads all over the place


exactly my point.

others, simply, do not.  

You don't.

I don't.

most here don't.

and not even all creationists do.

hence our friend Lou, who "escaped" for lack of a better term.

In that light, how would you answer Lou's question?

Quote
And of course, this ability or inability to change a belief is not confined to scientists and ministers; it would have to be found in varying degrees in all people.


I'm reminded of a quote from near the end of the movie "Dogma"

after having actually MET god and saved the world from annhilation, there is a brief discussion between an unknown disciple of Jesus (Rufus) and the "last zion" (Bethany):

Rufus says:

"crisis of faith over?"

Bethany:

"I think I'm blessed with an overabundance now."

Rufus:

"Does that mean you believe?"

Bethany:

"No.  But I have a pretty good idea."

Rufus nods in agreement.  Rufus' point was made earlier in the film:

"You can change an idea, but a belief? that's MUCH harder."

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,17:05   

While we're talking about dissonance, how'd you like to be Dembski? How'd you like to try to reconcile the following two beliefs:

1 I am a revolutionary, genius scientist
2 My followers are Salvador Cordova, DaveScot, GlennJ, DougMoron...

I'm not sure there's enough special pleading in the world to deal with that. :-)

Quote
exactly my point.

others, simply, do not.  

You don't.

I don't.

most here don't.


Well I think we do use these kinds of x-factors in our day-to-day thinking, the difference is we don't have the huge worldview beliefs which are at odds with science, so we don't have to use those pleads in those areas, and in excess.

Update: So if my idea is correct, what the question reduces to is, Why are people like Dave so committed to those fundy beliefs, that they'll endure so many special pleads? And I don't really have an answer for that.

   
sir_toejam



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,17:17   

Quote
how'd you like to be Dembski? How'd you like to try to reconcile the following two beliefs:

1 I am a revolutionary, genius scientist
2 My followers are Salvador Cordova, DaveScot, GlennJ, DougMoron...


I've often wondered how he deals with this myself.  I saw some of his early discussions he posted from his college days, and it seems he embarked on this "adventure" as a bit of a lark, maybe make some bucks along the way.

I do wonder just how deep he has fallen into the hole he has dug for himself.

OTOH, I'd bet he's actually making quite a bit more money than myself these days.

*shrug*

Quote
And I don't really have an answer for that.


nor did I.  which is kinda what motivated me to start this bit of investigatory debate.  I'm sure i could make a more convincing argument if I had more than a year of undergrad pych under my belt, but I kinda feel like I know "just enough to be an idiot" if you catch my meaning.

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,17:20   

Quote

I've often wondered how he deals with this myself.  I saw some of his early discussions he posted from his college days, and it seems he embarked on this "adventure" as a bit of a lark, maybe make some bucks along the way.
I can relate to that. I have some friends who started a homeopathy company. Do they believe in homeopathy? Not on your life. They think it's utter nonsense. But they think there's a mountain of money to be made there.

   
sir_toejam



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,17:29   

do you mind if we end this side discussion here for now?

I don't want to get too far off the main thrust of the thread, which I'll pick up again tommorrow.

cheers

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,17:31   

I don't have anything else to say on the topic, really. And Chauncey Billups just made it a 1-pt game on my tivo, so I'll switch my attention to that :-)

   
sir_toejam



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,19:55   

[deleted]

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,04:54   

Ok, I feel better.  A day at the beach will do that for a fella'.

:)

I've been chewing on this, and so far we've been picking out random instances and saying "oh yeah, this is child abuse" or "I'm not sure that constitutes child abuse" but there doesn't seem to be any way to delineate what is or isn't.

I'm thinking maybe we should alter our methodology.  How about this.

Let's draw a scale for actions, from 0 to 100, where 0 is an action that amounts to no irrationality, and 100 is an action that results in the death of a child from extreme irrationality (witholding medication from a child for religious objections which results in the death of a child would be at or near 100, I'd say).  We'll divide the line exactly at 50 and say that a 49 is really wacky, but just short of child abuse, and 51 is just barely child abuse.

Let's further separate the high end of the scale with 51 to 74 being milder forms that might have some hope of recovery, and 76 to 100 being actions that would indicate it is necessary to remove the abuser from all contact with children (i.e. jail, abuser offenders list, etc.)

Back down on the other end, obviously there is no one who can honestly claim 0 type behavior in all instances, so let's reserve 0 to 24 for more innocuous behavior ("my favorite team wins when I wear my replica of their jersey" would fit in there somewhere) and 26 to 49 for stranger actions which are a bit more irrational, but wouldn't quite be considered abuse.  (Perhaps this might include things like inducing labor in a pregant woman so her baby won't be born on June 6.)

The locations on our scale corresponding to 25, 50, and 75 would be set aside for behaviors which are borderline between the actions on either side, and for which concensus simply cannot be reached.

I'm open to suggestions on this, what do you think?

In honor of the fella' who brought this topic up here and got me thinking about it, I'm going to name our scale the T.O.S.I.C.A., or Toejam Objective Scale of Irrationality and Child Abuse.


:D

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Joe the Ordinary Guy



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(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,06:30   

Lou,

Your scale is certainly a workable starting point for discussion. I think the next step would be to start calibrating the various contributors to this thread by asking them to assign a score to a single action: teaching a child that there is a god.

No other qualifiers here; just teaching a child that there is a god.

I myself would assign that action a TOSICA score of 45.

  
PennyBright



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,07:10   

Lou, I like it for a starting point.

I'll follow Joe's example and rate 'teaching a child there is a god'.

I'm assuming the teaching is just that - no specific particulars about religion or behaviour, just 'there is a god'.

I'd have to rate that a 28 or so -- at that level it seems the equivalant of teaching 'there is a santa claus'.

On the 'with-holding medical care due to religious belief'  I think that the general behaviour is a solid 75,  since it may or may not be fatal or injurious, depending on the circumstances.  There is no question that many specific instances of the behaviour hit 100.

--------------
Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - Shakespeare (reputedly)

  
sir_toejam



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(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,14:39   

I've got some references to track down and some things referenced by others in this area to read, so I'm paying attention, but before we go much farther, I'd like to be able to say I know a bit more about what has come before in the areas being discussed.

It seems all agree that one of the main ideas here is to somehow generate some objective way of qualifying whether a specific indoctrination practice would be considered to cross a line into mental or emotional abuse.

Is this essentially correct?

a sliding scale is an excellent place to start, one with as large a scale as possible.

scale of 1-100?  pretty good sized scale.  might even make it larger until we can get a clearer picuture of exactly what is meant by mental and emotional abuse, see further examination of cases on point, etc.

I figure as the picture becomes clearer, the scale will narrow.

then, I suppose we would need to figure exactly where an specific set of circumstances would become actionable.

I'm no lawyer, but I wouldn't doubt there is a veritable cornucopia of relevant cases to study.

Hmmm, I guess what I'm really asking is, "raise your hand" if you want to do some legwork so we can all come to some workable and productive conclusions here.

Ideally, some time spent gathering relevant court cases would be helpful;

also treatises on the psychology of cultism, examples of "brainwashing" and methods used to treat same (professional only, not amateur).

any current work on the phenomonon of cognitive dissonance, or whatever is currently the relevant area of investigation.  Ways mental health-care professionals use to analyze and treat related symptoms, etc.

I'd like to see this proceed beyond a well-reasoned set of assumptions based on very little data, into something where we all agree there is some value.

there's no rush.  posts on ATBC stay indefinetly, so we can always come back to it as new things come up, and time becomes available.

at the very least, I hope it will eventually become a decent repository of references and information, and it certainly will be interesting, as it's already achieved that, at least in my mind.

cheers

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,15:27   

Hmmm...

I'm thinking my TOSICA score for "there is a god" is a multi-part answer, and that answer is dependant on our definition of "god".  If, indeed, we say that there is no restriction or qualification on the word, just that there is some force or being, supernatural, that exists, then I would lean more towards Penny's score of around 28 to 30.  If we instead give this god more of an anthropomorphological (is that a word?) characteristic, "there is some guy looking out for us" then I'd raise that score to somewhere around a 40  to 45.  If we give him/her more of the Judeo-Christo-Muslim attributes, "He sees you when you're sleeping, and punishes you when you are bad", then I'd go even higher than Joe, and put this between 48 and 52.  Teaching a child that the literal God of Genesis exists is well above 50, and might well stray above the 75 mark.

I guess my point here is that we should be very exact when using the term "god".  Are we talking about "a god", "a God", "The God", or "The Christian God Who Sends People To #### For Ridiculous Reasons"?

Again, if we're just talking about a generic "a god", I would really rate that close to where Penny did on the TOSICA.

STJ,

Although the topic has certainly tweeked my nose, in all honesty I'm not even remotely capable of rendering an unbiased opinion, synopsis, or review of anything on subject.  If I were in any way involved in the adjudication of a case involving this topic, I would have to recuse myself in all fairness.  I assume it's quite obvious why.  Of course, the fact that IANAL precludes my involvement in most ways anyway.  Hey, I'm just the son of a carpenter.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
sir_toejam



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Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,16:41   

Quote
Although the topic has certainly tweeked my nose, in all honesty I'm not even remotely capable of rendering an unbiased opinion, synopsis, or review of anything on subject.


that's fine.  nobody at this point has asked for any unbiased opinion on the surface, as all opnions will end up in the mix.  I personally am only asking that each of us spend a bit of time tracking down some relevant actual research or cases that work to generate a more informed opinion, regardless of bias, for all involved.

for that matter, I count myself as having little more than biased opinion at this point as well.

in fact, a specific bias can be helpful at times.  allows for a different perspective that might be missed otherwise.

heck, haven't you learned something from watching AFDave flail about?

In fact, I think I will have to thank AFDave for being a great resource on point.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,05:37   

Point taken, Ick.

I've begun looking for court cases etc. and will let you know what I come up with.

In the early course of this, I've just happened across Richard Dawkins' The Root Of All Evil on google video.  I highly recommend both parts.  In fact, he makes a strong case for radically raising the TOSICA score for "there is a god".  Good stuff, in any event.

Peace.

Download Part 1

Download Part 2

Download the Google video player

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Fross



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,12:12   

on the 0-100 scale, I just don't see teaching about god as making it on the chart.  It's usually taught as a sincere belief.

I guarantee that every action a parent does can be considered child abuse by someone else.  "OH my god, they let them play outside in the dangerous world.  Child abuse!!"  or "Oh my god, they make them stay inside all day to watch TV and get fat.  Child abuse!"   I bet my family thinks it's child abuse that I'm not taking my kids to church.

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"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,12:40   

Hey Fross,

Thanks for joining the discussion.  The TOSICA sliding scale is one of irrationality, with innocuous and harmless stuff to the left near zero and increasing to the right as the stuff becomes more and more irrational, eventually culminating in actions that result in the death of a child due directly to irrationality.

As I noted above when I introduced the TOSICA, something as irrational yet basically harmless as "we have to wear our jerseys tonight so the Flyers will beat the holy snot out of the Devils" is on the scale, just way left of child abuse.  Obviously, there is no evidence that such behavior influences a hockey game, just as there is no evidence of god, God, The God, or The Almighty Christian God Who Commits Genocide When Heathens Don't Worship Him.

The TOSICA is just a starting place for our discussion on quantifying and catagorizing what does and does not merit the label "child abuse".

I sincerely wear my Flyers jersey whenever they are on TV down here in my adopted habitat (I guess I'm an invasive species here in NC), in the intellectually vapid hope that it might somehow affect a game in Philadelphia, but it's still irrational no matter how sincere I am...  Unless we kick the crap out of Jersey, in which case we all know that "a god", "a God", "The God", and "The Almighty Christian God Who Commits Genocide When Heathens Don't Worship Him" are all Flyers fans.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,12:49   

Its not true Lou, I won't believe it!  Call it the collective mind, but I watch every Cardinals game I can because I KNOW they play better when I watch!!!!!! LOL

  
deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,12:28   

Here's some old stuff I had on CD from before I wiped out my comp.

A disturbing fact continues to surface in sex abuse research. The first best predictor of abuse is alcohol or drug addiction in the father. But the second best predictor is conservative religiosity, accompanied by parental belief in traditional male-female roles. This means that if you want to know which children are most likely to be sexually abused by their father, the second most significant clue is whether or not the parents belong to a conservative religious group with traditional role beliefs and rigid sexual attitudes. (Brown and Bohn, 1989; Finkelhor, 1986; Fortune, 1983; Goldstein et al, 1973; Van Leeuwen, 1990). .........."Sexual Abuse in Christian Homes and Churches", by Carolyn Holderread Heggen, Herald Press, Scotdale, PA, 1993 p. 73 (my emphasis)

In the book, "The Battered Child", physician Ray E. Helfer cites, "the assault rate on on children of parents who subscribe to the christian fundamentalist belief in male dominance, is 136% percent higher than for parents who do not have this belief system."

http://www.robinsharpe.ca/essay-fund-abuse.htm
http://www.atoday.com/magazin....t.shtml
Philip R. Shaver, Gall S. Goodman, Jiangjin Qin In the Name of God: A Profile of Religion-related Child Abuse (Journal of Social Issues 1995, Vol. 51, No. 2)

I added this not to agree that AFDave actively engages in child abuse, but to note that it really is an issue of power and control, and that recent events in the Mormon community suggest the same. If you can brainwash kids that god wants things to be a certain way...then you can control them

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,13:14   

136% percent higher?????? I would have guessed it was higher, but that's crazy. I had no idea.

   
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,13:52   

Quote
"the assault rate on on children of parents who subscribe to the christian fundamentalist belief in male dominance, is 136% percent higher than for parents who do not have this belief system."



Did they actually conclude the specific belief structures are causative, as well?

Or was it just a correlative study?

I'm suspecting that the belief structures themselves have an underlying causation; perhaps even a genetic component to some extent.

There have been a few articles published on the subject in the last couple of years looking at potential underlying causative factors like genetics; but they aren't overwhelmingly convincing either way.  Just suggestive at this point.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,15:43   

Ichthyic: It was correlative, and dates from quite a while ago. Yeah, the TLE and "god module" stuff is interesting in regard to propensity of absolutist belief systems, but..fuzzy

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,15:53   

fuzzy... yup.

I often wonder if the old bruhaha over EO Wilson's sociobiology causes researchers in these areas to be overly cautious.

Not that being cautious is a bad thing, but it can be taken to an extreme, and interesting questions are left poorly addressed.

If you or Fractatious run across any other relevant articles, I'd be obliged if you remember to post the links here.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2006,10:26   

Ok, I think if we begin reading at the last comment ON THIS PAGE I think we can justify adding 20 points to fundyism on the TOSICA.

'nuff said.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2006,10:53   

what, the part about humans being the pets of the gods?

I've gotta admit, that idea is a new one to me.  I have no idea which way it influences the scale, but it certainly is nuts.

funny, if you look at Carol Clouserbot's posting about utilitarianism and how she apparently thinks Albert Schweizer was telling us to "save the zebras", it's almost the exact opposite of Dave's "logic", but just as whacky.

just a general note:

I'm a bit stymied in continuing this thread, as my general knowledge of the core issues involved is dependent on a one year pysch course, and processing the literature provided as reference in this thread and elsewhere, so it will be a couple of weeks or so before I can put another substantive post here that attempts to move the topic along.  I just feel slow is good when approaching such a potentially rancorous topic.

IMT, don't let me slow down anybody else who wanted to contribute to the discussion here.

cheers

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2006,11:01   

Although that idea was wacky, and Clouserbot's was really nutso, the relevent portion to which I was referring in AFDave's post was where he was saying it was ok to kill women and children if God told you to do it.  Then he somehow drifted off into a comparison to the U.S. military, intimating that if your superior tells you to, then it's ok because you were given orders to by a representative of the God-annointed government.

Man that boiled my blood.  Anyone who thinks it's ok to go around killing women and children simply 'cause God told you to belongs behind bars, and certainly has no business raising children.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
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