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Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2021,23:15   

And KF has premarital sex inevitably leading to pregnant five year olds.
Quote
Meanwhile, actually, many reach puberty at or before 10 and there are enough known cases before puberty to give even more sobering pause. I note, the youngest mother on record gave birth at 5 years, seven months. I do not wish to go further into the abyss than that. KF

I feel sorry for Mrs. KF. No sex before marriage, no sex after marriage unless it is to produce another KF. And no masturbation, because that is a sin. What does he think that vibrating tubular thing in his wife’s nightstand is used for?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2021,05:49   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 04 2021,00:03)
Quote (stevestory @ June 03 2021,17:47)
I don’t read Jerry’s comments because he’s dangerously stupid. By which I mean he’s so dumb that reading his comments could potentially trigger an embolism. But I gather from other people that he seems to believe that premarital sex is akin to pederasty?

Yup. If we allow premarital sex, we have to allow 10 year olds to have sex. That is why there are so many 10 year olds, driving, voting and getting married.

“I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.”

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2021,09:09   

Say, didn't Hogwarts teach a spell for doing that?

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: June 05 2021,11:17   

Quote
NOTICE

At this point it is more than adequately warranted that those who balk at or reject or evade the Ciceronian first duties of reason, thereby show themselves to be unreasonable, irresponsible and leave open the door to lawless nihilism.

That is a painful conclusion to have to draw, but unfortunately it is well warranted and if adequate cases are required, kindly observe not only that kidnapped, sexually tortured and murdered child destroyed for someone’s sick pleasure but also the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, 800+ millions and mounting up at about another milion per week.

Easily, the all time worst crime against humanity ever, and it has happened over this past generation.

GEM of TKI

Yup. That makes it official. The mage of Montserrat has declared victory by fiat.

Ramblings of a truly unliveable old man

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2021,06:14   

Quote
11
Mahuna
June 7, 2021 at 4:45 am

COVID was manufactured by the US Army’s germ warfare guys and PLANTED in China. I think they were having a slow day. I’m not sure how the US Army has justified the deaths of AMERICANS from their toy, but, hey, sometimes the guys in the lab get BORED.


He seems smart

   
sparc



Posts: 2089
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,09:04   

Just out of curiosity: UD's founder and ex-owner Bill Dembski writes on his personal blog
 
Quote
In my book The Design Inference (Cambridge University Press, 1998), I laid out a statistical method for uncovering the action of a designing intelligence. That method took the form of an inference—specifically, an inference to the best explanation. Thus the method asserted that if an event, object, or structure conforms to an independently given pattern (i.e., a specification) and if in the absence of intelligence the probability of matching that pattern is small (i.e., improbability), then a design inference is warranted. Simply put, specified improbability constitutes a method for inferring design. Moreover, things that exhibit specified improbability are best explained as the product of intelligence.
(italics in the original)
Did he ever use "specified improbability" in his earlier writings? The first thing that showed up when I googled "specified improbability" + Dembski was Jeffrey Shallit's review of Dembksi's No free lunchwhich stated  
Quote
Another term, such as Robin Collins' "specified improbability", would have been less confusing.


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,11:31   

Less confusing than that:

If the probability of a result is very low for it being caused by known processes, then maybe an unknown process was involved.

Either that or the probability calculation was wrong.

But of course, evolution is not an unknown process.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,13:19   

Quote
1296
Kairosfocus
June 9, 2021 at 11:06 am
Paige, regrettably but necessarily (for cause), is no longer with us.

As far as I can see, her crime was to make a couple Monty Python references.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,13:32   

It's just a tyranny of two or three tards over there anymore. Paige barely arrived and got banned. It's just a small handful of socially defective nitwits now, repeating the same old gibberish for two decades. Let's have a vote on whether or not we should just close this thread.

Not to abandon this site, this site is useful and has a good population of commenters, but to move the topics on to greener pastures, because UD is just an arid desert now.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,13:40   

I'm watching a video about a slime mold called dictyostelium and it's just vastly more interesting than anything those intolerant Right-wing diptards have said all year.

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,13:52   

Quote (stevestory @ June 09 2021,11:32)
It's just a tyranny of two or three tards over there anymore. Paige barely arrived and got banned. It's just a small handful of socially defective nitwits now, repeating the same old gibberish for two decades. Let's have a vote on whether or not we should just close this thread.

Not to abandon this site, this site is useful and has a good population of commenters, but to move the topics on to greener pastures, because UD is just an arid desert now.

Remembering always that eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,15:09   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 09 2021,08:19)
Quote
1296
Kairosfocus
June 9, 2021 at 11:06 am
Paige, regrettably but necessarily (for cause), is no longer with us.

As far as I can see, her crime was to make a couple Monty Python references.

And commenting while Canadian!

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,15:13   

Quote (stevestory @ June 09 2021,08:32)
It's just a tyranny of two or three tards over there anymore. Paige barely arrived and got banned. It's just a small handful of socially defective nitwits now, repeating the same old gibberish for two decades. Let's have a vote on whether or not we should just close this thread.

Not to abandon this site, this site is useful and has a good population of commenters, but to move the topics on to greener pastures, because UD is just an arid desert now.

I'd suggest another boycott but there are so few rational commenters these days, I'm not sure it would make much difference.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,15:37   

I don't even know what a boycott would mean in the context of 2021 Uncommon Descent. It would be like boycotting an old abandoned burned out warehouse that contains three jabbering bums huddled around a burning oil drum.

At some point Barry's going to stop paying the bandwidth bill or sell the URL to a link farm or something.

   
DiEb



Posts: 312
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,16:22   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 05 2021,17:17)
Quote
NOTICE

At this point it is more than adequately warranted that those who balk at or reject or evade the Ciceronian first duties of reason, thereby show themselves to be unreasonable, irresponsible and leave open the door to lawless nihilism.

That is a painful conclusion to have to draw, but unfortunately it is well warranted and if adequate cases are required, kindly observe not only that kidnapped, sexually tortured and murdered child destroyed for someone’s sick pleasure but also the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, 800+ millions and mounting up at about another milion per week.

Easily, the all time worst crime against humanity ever, and it has happened over this past generation.

GEM of TKI

Yup. That makes it official. The mage of Montserrat has declared victory by fiat.

Ramblings of a truly unliveable old man

Is he back to signing as "GEM of TKI"? Isn't that just a google-search away from self-doxxing?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2021,19:47   

Quote (DiEb @ June 09 2021,17:22)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 05 2021,17:17)
 
Quote
NOTICE

At this point it is more than adequately warranted that those who balk at or reject or evade the Ciceronian first duties of reason, thereby show themselves to be unreasonable, irresponsible and leave open the door to lawless nihilism.

That is a painful conclusion to have to draw, but unfortunately it is well warranted and if adequate cases are required, kindly observe not only that kidnapped, sexually tortured and murdered child destroyed for someone’s sick pleasure but also the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, 800+ millions and mounting up at about another milion per week.

Easily, the all time worst crime against humanity ever, and it has happened over this past generation.

GEM of TKI

Yup. That makes it official. The mage of Montserrat has declared victory by fiat.

Ramblings of a truly unliveable old man

Is he back to signing as "GEM of TKI"? Isn't that just a google-search away from self-doxxing?

“The Knowledge Institute” is right up there with “Patriot University”. Probably similar sq ft and bedrooms/bathrooms too  :p

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,09:04   

Quote
Ethics Logic And First Principles Of Right Reason
L&FP44: What Are Self-Evident Truths [SET’s] And Why Do They Matter?
Posted onJune 10, 2021 AuthorkairosfocusComments(5)
Spread the love
A classic case in point of self-evident truth can be seen by splitting our fingers into a two and a three then joining them again — and, sorry, this needs to be hammered home hard as we are cutting across the grain of current education and cultural conditioning.

So, pardon demonstration by undeniable example and re-use of an illustration:


As a bonus, we see another SET that is like unto the first, self-evident, but is subtler. That error exists is not only a massive empirical fact but an undeniable truth. The attempted denial actually supports the Josiah Royce proposition.

By way of Epictetus (c. 180 AD), we can see a third case, SET’s that are first principles of reasoning antecedent to proof and which therefore inescapably pervade our reasoning, including proofs and [attempted] dis-proofs:

DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV: How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

These examples and others that could be brought forward show that SET’s are true, and for one with adequate experience, background and insight to understand, will be seen as necessarily true once understood. That is, the attempted denial is in some way immediately, manifestly absurd so that the certainty of the SET is assured.

Thus, SET’s are objective, warranted to full certainty.



Which makes them suspect to those enamoured with today’s all too common relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. Clearly though if SET’s have been demonstrated — as we saw — then the claim or suggestion that truth is a perception or agreement or feeling regarding an opinion only . . . true to me or to us, that’s all . . . manifestly fails.

Starting with, 2 + 3 = 5 and with, error undeniably exists or that we are undeniably self-aware (conscious) and able to reason responsibly. Illustrating, by contrast with a rock (even one formed into computer hardware!):


However, as the Angelic Doctor long ago noted, having adequate background and inclination to understand and acknowledge the force of a SET can be an issue. Indeed, the case with Epictetus’ interlocutor shows that one may have to be educated to be able to understand a SET. (Recall, we have to be taught basic addition and multiplication facts.)

Epictetus also shows that one might have to be corrected regarding a SET. The silence in response suggests, too, that such correction may not be welcome.



For sure, self-evidence does not mean utterly simple and obvious to one and all.

We may now expand:

SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS — CHARACTERISTICS:

1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| –> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs.

2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and to therefore recognise the sentences expressing it.

3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it.

4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection.

5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.:

– Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4 X],
– undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable],
– inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even in the face of an ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline . . . to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc . . . where, moral truths are truths regarding states of affairs involving oughtness, i.e. duty — we ought to respect the life, body, freedom and dignity of a young child walking home from school, never mind convenient bushes and dark impulses in our hearts],
– blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing of conscience],
– moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child]
– etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.



6] So, SET’s are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and first duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument.

7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.

Of course, we are always free to choose to be irrational and/or irresponsible. And others are equally free to note the fact and duly reckon the loss of credibility. Where, cheap shot turnabout projections only confirm the loss of credibility.

As a final point, SET’s are relatively rare, so rare in fact that they cannot by themselves frame a worldview or school of thought. So, what we use them as is plumb lines that test our thinking, especially when we are tempted to make a crooked yardstick into our imposed standard for what political correctness, newspeak word magic, agit prop and lawfare call truth, right, rights, tolerance, conspiracy theories, follow the science, X-phobias, facts, knowledge etc. So, pardon another oldie but goodie:


Self-evident truths are important and precious. Let us therefore prize and use them aptly. END

If UD has just become the incoherent ramblings of xenophobic, homophobic man who is well past his best before date, I would vite for shutting down this thread. There is a reason they shut down freak shows at carnivals.

  
Jkrebs



Posts: 590
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,09:20   

First TKI, as in GEM of TKI, stands for the The Kairos Initiative, not The Knowledge Institute.

Second, KS's lastest post is 100% repetition. Just as soon as one runs its course, he shuffles his deck of cards and "write" a new one. And Barry praises him for it because they are the only posts that get any traffic.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,10:42   

@Acartia don't forget the brilliant analysis of BatShit77!
Quote

4
Bornagain77June 10, 2021 at 9:13 am
As to this comment from the article

“Since the Higgs boson was discovered in 2012, the Standard Model’s overall predictions have been confirmed to astounding degree of accuracy.”

Actually the Higgs Boson was not a prediction of the Standard model but was a prediction that was made by Peter Higgs in 1964, prior to the final formulation of the Standard model in the mid-1970s.

Higgs Boson
Excerpt: It is named after physicist Peter Higgs, who in 1964 along with five other scientists proposed the Higgs mechanism to explain why some particles have mass. (Particles acquire mass in several ways, but a full explanation for all particles had been extremely difficult.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....s_boson

Standard Model
Excerpt: The Standard Model of particle physics is the theory describing three of the four known fundamental forces (the electromagnetic, weak, and strong interactions, and not including gravity) in the universe, as well as classifying all known elementary particles. It was developed in stages throughout the latter half of the 20th century, through the work of many scientists around the world,[1] with the current formulation being finalized in the mid-1970s upon experimental confirmation of the existence of quarks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....d_Model

Moreover, the prediction of the Higgs Boson was born out of Peter Higgs’s sense of ‘mathematical beauty.’

As the following article points out, the prediction was made because, if the Higgs Boson did not exist then, “the mathematical harmony was spoiled. The equations became complex and unwieldy and, worse still, inconsistent.”

And as the article goes on to state, “Don’t shove the particles’ masses down the throat of the beautiful equations. Instead, keep the equations pristine and symmetric, but consider them operating within a peculiar environment.”

How the Higgs Boson Was Found Brian Greene – July 2013
Before the elusive particle could be discovered—a smashing success—it had to be imagined
Excerpt: When physicists in the 1960s modeled the behavior of these particles using equations rooted in quantum physics, they encountered a puzzle. If they imagined that the particles were all massless, then each term in the equations clicked into a perfectly symmetric pattern, like the tips of a perfect snowflake. And this symmetry was not just mathematically elegant. It explained patterns evident in the experimental data. But—and here’s the puzzle—physicists knew that the particles did have mass, and when they modified the equations to account for this fact, the mathematical harmony was spoiled. The equations became complex and unwieldy and, worse still, inconsistent.
What to do? Here’s the idea put forward by Higgs. Don’t shove the particles’ masses down the throat of the beautiful equations. Instead, keep the equations pristine and symmetric, but consider them operating within a peculiar environment. Imagine that all of space is uniformly filled with an invisible substance—now called the Higgs field—that exerts a drag force on particles when they accelerate through it. Push on a fundamental particle in an effort to increase its speed and, according to Higgs, you would feel this drag force as a resistance. Justifiably, you would interpret the resistance as the particle’s mass.,,,
In 1964, Higgs submitted a paper to a prominent physics journal in which he formulated this idea mathematically
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science....4723520

It is very interesting to note that the best mathematical theories, that are later confirmed empirically to be true, were born out of the mathematicians ‘sense of beauty’. Paul Dirac himself mathematically discovered the ‘anti-electron’, before it was empirically confirmed, solely through his mathematical ‘sense of beauty’:

Graham Farmelo on Paul Dirac and Mathematical Beauty – video (28:12 minute mark – prediction of the ‘anti-electron’)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....n2WdR40

As the preceding video highlighted, Paul Dirac was rather adamant that beauty was integral to finding truth through math. In fact, Paul Dirac, in seeming contradiction to the entire scientific method, stated that, ‘it is more important to have beauty in one’s equations than to have them fit experiment’.

A thing of beauty – A. Miller – 2006
Excerpt: Even when the evidence was going against them, Nobel prize-winners Murray Gell-Mann and Richard Feynman clung on to cherished theories just because they thought they were “beautiful”.
,,, back in the 1960s, Paul Dirac famously asserted that: “It is more important to have beauty in one’s equations than to have them fit experiment.” Richard Feynman, too, insisted on believing in one of his theories even when it seemed to contradict experimental data. “There was a moment when I knew how nature worked,” he wrote in 1957. “[The theory] had elegance and beauty. The goddamn thing was gleaming.”,,,,
In 1957, experimental evidence weighed heavily against Murray Gell-Mann and Richard Feynman’s theory of weak interactions. As we saw, Feynman had declared that the theory “had elegance and beauty. The goddamn thing was gleaming”. In other words, it had an inner perfection that suggested it could be generalised further, it hinted at how to unify the weak and electromagnetic interactions, and its mathematical representation was the simplest that could be constructed. Despite the high reputation of the physicists responsible for the actual experiments, Feynman and Gell-Mann’s response was that there was something wrong with the experiments. They were right. Thus although experiments are essential for scientific theories, certain theories are just too important – too beautiful, one could say – to be discarded when the experiments don’t go your way. Perhaps in the future beauty will provide an important criterion for selecting one theory over another, now that theories are emerging which cannot be verified by experimentation as we know it today.
https://www.arthurimiller.com/AThingo....VES.pdf

Albert Einstein was also a big fan of beauty in math. Einstein stated: ‘the only physical theories that we are willing to accept are the beautiful ones’

Truth not equal to Beauty – Philip Ball – May 2014
Excerpt: ‘the only physical theories that we are willing to accept are the beautiful ones’
Albert Einstein – Quoted in Graham Farmelo, It Must be Beautiful: Great Equations of Modern Science (Granta Books, 2002), p. xii. Farmelo provides an extensive discussion of this topic and gives numerous examples from the history of science.
http://aeon.co/magazin....quation

In regards to General Relativity itself, mathematical physicist Clifford Will said, “Fiddling with general relativity would be tantamount to changing the Fifth Symphony.”

“Fiddling with general relativity, he believes, would be tantamount to changing the Fifth Symphony. “General relativity is so unbelievably beautiful and simple – it’s in some ways the most perfect gravitational theory that you could possibly imagine,” he says. All of the alternatives he’s seen so far are “horrendously ugly by comparison”
https://uncommondescent.com/physics....ts-time

‘Mathematical beauty’ even had a guiding hand in the (fairly recent) discovery of the Amplituhedron:

The Amplituhedron (mathematical beauty – 21:12 minute mark) – Nima Arkani-Hamed, Professor of Physics, Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J. – video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....#t=1272

As well, Alex Vilenkin, commenting on Euler’s Identity, stated,,,

“It appears that the Creator shares the mathematicians sense of beauty”
Alex Vilenkin – Many Worlds in One: (page 201)

5


Bornagain77June 10, 2021 at 9:17 am
In asking “how was such a ‘hideous monstrosity’ as the ‘ugly’ equation of the standard model born?”, we find that the standard model was born out of the ‘renormalization’ of the mathematical infinity that exists between Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity.

Here is a little background: The standard model grew out of the success of Quantum electrodynamics (QED)

History of quantum field theory
Excerpt: In particle physics, the history of quantum field theory starts with its creation by Paul Dirac, when he attempted to quantize the electromagnetic field in the late 1920s. Major advances in the theory were made in the 1950s, and led to the introduction of quantum electrodynamics (QED). QED was so successful and accurately predictive that efforts were made to apply the same basic concepts for the other forces of nature. By the late 1970s, these efforts successfully utilized gauge theory in the strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force, producing the modern standard model of particle physics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...._theory

Quantum field theory – history
Excerpt: As a successful theoretical framework today, quantum field theory emerged from the work of generations of theoretical physicists spanning much of the 20th century. Its development began in the 1920s with the description of interactions between light and electrons, culminating in the first quantum field theory — quantum electrodynamics. A major theoretical obstacle soon followed with the appearance and persistence of various infinities in perturbative calculations, a problem only resolved in the 1950s with the invention of the renormalization procedure. A second major barrier came with QFT’s apparent inability to describe the weak and strong interactions, to the point where some theorists called for the abandonment of the field theoretic approach. The development of gauge theory and the completion of the Standard Model in the 1970s led to a renaissance of quantum field theory.,,,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....History

And QED unifies special relativity with quantum mechanics,,,

Precise measurements test quantum electrodynamics, constrain possible fifth fundamental force – June 04, 2013
Excerpt: Quantum electrodynamics (QED) – the relativistic quantum field theory of electrodynamics – describes how light and matter interact – achieves full agreement between quantum mechanics and special relativity.,, QED solves the problem of infinities associated with charged pointlike particles and, perhaps more importantly, includes the effects of spontaneous particle-antiparticle generation from the vacuum.,,, Recently, scientists,, tested QED to extreme precision..,,, can be interpreted in terms of constraints on possible fifth-force interactions beyond the Standard Model of physics,,
http://phys.org/news....al.html

The Gravity of the Situation
The inability to reconcile general relativity with quantum mechanics didn’t just occur to physicists. It was actually after many other successful theories had already been developed that gravity was recognized as the elusive force. The first attempt at unifying relativity and quantum mechanics took place when special relativity was merged with electromagnetism. This created the theory of quantum electrodynamics, or QED. It is an example of what has come to be known as relativistic quantum field theory, or just quantum field theory. QED is considered by most physicists to be the most precise theory of natural phenomena ever developed.
In the 1960s and ’70s, the success of QED prompted other physicists to try an analogous approach to unifying the weak, the strong, and the gravitational forces. Out of these discoveries came another set of theories that merged the strong and weak forces called quantum chromodynamics, or QCD, and quantum electroweak theory, or simply the electroweak theory, which you’ve already been introduced to.
https://www.infoplease.com/science....ativity

Quantum field theory – History
Excerpt: ,,, (Quantum field theory) QFT is an unavoidable consequence of the reconciliation of quantum mechanics with special relativity (Weinberg (1995)),,,
The first achievement of quantum field theory, namely quantum electrodynamics (QED), is “still the paradigmatic example of a successful quantum field theory” (Weinberg (1995)).
https://ipfs.io/ipfs....ry.html

Quantum field theory – history
Excerpt: Quantum field theory is the result of the combination of classical field theory, quantum mechanics, and special relativity.,,,
,,, Given the tremendous success of QED, many theorists believed, in the few years after 1949, that QFT could soon provide an understanding of all microscopic phenomena, not only the interactions between photons, electrons, and positrons. Contrary to this optimism, QFT entered yet another period of depression that lasted for almost two decades.,,,
These theoretical breakthroughs brought about a renaissance in QFT. The full theory, which includes the electroweak theory and chromodynamics, is referred to today as the Standard Model of elementary particles.[12] The Standard Model successfully describes all fundamental interactions except gravity, and its many predictions have been met with remarkable experimental confirmation in subsequent decades.[8]:3 The Higgs boson, central to the mechanism of spontaneous symmetry breaking, was finally detected in 2012 at CERN, marking the complete verification of the existence of all constituents of the Standard Model.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....History

It is also important to note that Richard Feynman (and others) were only able to unify special relativity and quantum mechanics into Quantum Electrodynamics by quote unquote “brushing infinity under the rug” with a technique called Renormalization.

THE INFINITY PUZZLE: Quantum Field Theory and the Hunt for an Orderly Universe
Excerpt: In quantum electrodynamics, which applies quantum mechanics to the electromagnetic field and its interactions with matter, the equations led to infinite results for the self-energy or mass of the electron. After nearly two decades of effort, this problem was solved after World War II by a procedure called renormalization, in which the infinities are rolled up into the electron’s observed mass and charge, and are thereafter conveniently ignored. Richard Feynman, who shared the 1965 Nobel Prize with Julian Schwinger and Sin-Itiro Tomonaga for this breakthrough, referred to this sleight of hand as “brushing infinity under the rug.”
http://www.americanscientist.o.....g-infinity/....nfinity

This “brushing infinity under the rug” with QED never set right with Feynman.

In the following video, Richard Feynman expresses his unease with “brushing infinity under the rug” in Quantum-Electrodynamics:

“It always bothers me that in spite of all this local business, what goes on in a tiny, no matter how tiny, region of space, and no matter how tiny a region of time, according to laws as we understand them today, it takes a computing machine an infinite number of logical operations to figure out. Now how can all that be going on in that tiny space? Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?”
– Richard Feynman – one of the founding fathers of QED (Quantum Electrodynamics)
Quote taken from the 6:45 minute mark of the following video:
Feynman: Mathematicians versus Physicists – video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....ODeoLVw

I don’t know about Richard Feynman, but as for myself, I find it rather comforting to know that it takes
“an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do”.

The reason I find it comforting is because of John1:1 which states “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “The Word” is translated from the world “Logos” in Greek, which also happens to be the root word from which we derive our modern word “Logic”. So that it would take “”an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do” is pretty much exactly what we would expect to see under Christian presuppositions.

John1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

of note: ‘the Word’ in John 1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos is also the root word from which we derive our modern word logic
http://etymonline.com/?term=l....m=logic

6




Bornagain77June 10, 2021 at 9:19 am
Moreover, this ‘brushing infinity under the rug’ in order to formulate QED, (and eventually formulate the Standard model), did not come without an unacceptable cost.

In ‘brushing infinity under the rug’ in QED they also brushed the entire enigma of quantum measurement itself under the rug.

As the following article states, “Although quantum field theory is fully compatible with the special theory of relativity, a relativistic treatment of quantum measurement has yet to be formulated.”

Not So Real – Sheldon Lee Glashow – Oct. 2018
Review of: “What Is Real? The Unfinished Quest for the Meaning of Quantum Physics”
by Adam Becker
Excerpt: Heisenberg, Schrödinger, and their contemporaries knew well that the theory they devised could not be made compatible with Einstein’s special theory of relativity. First order in time, but second order in space, Schrödinger’s equation is nonrelativistic. Although quantum field theory is fully compatible with the special theory of relativity, a relativistic treatment of quantum measurement has yet to be formulated.
https://inference-review.com/article....so-real

Yet quantum measurement is precisely where conscious observation makes is presence fully known in quantum theory.

As the following researcher stated, “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it. “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,”

New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It – June 3, 2015
Excerpt: Some particles, such as photons or electrons, can behave both as particles and as waves. Here comes a question of what exactly makes a photon or an electron act either as a particle or a wave. This is what Wheeler’s experiment asks: at what point does an object ‘decide’?
The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts.
“It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,,
“The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said.
Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer.
http://themindunleashed.org/20.........it.html

The following video goes into more detail and shows how there is a very tight correlation between quantum mechanics and fundamental defining attributes of consciousness, or more precisely that there is a very tight correlation between quantum measurement and fundamental defining attributes of the immaterial mind.

How Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Correlate – video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....L3Nrdas

For them to brush quantum measurement, and therefore consciousness itself, under the rug in their formulation of QED (and subsequently the formulation of the Standard Model), is simply unacceptable for any theory that is held to be the correct first step towards a ‘theory of everything’.

Obviously, to forsake the existence of conscious observers in your supposed ‘theory of everything’ is to forsake the most important thing that needs to be explained in your ‘theory of everything’. Namely, it forsakes the very existence of the very ones who are seeking a ‘theory of everything’ in the first place!

Bottom line, consciousness is absolutely essential for any adequate description of reality that we may wish to devise.

Don’t take my word for it, the founders of Quantum Theory itself held that to be true:

“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931

“Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.”
Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.

“The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists.”
– Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177.

Thus, since theorists have brushed consciousness itself under the rug when they formulated the standard model, and have therefore brushed the theorists themselves under the rug, then it necessarily follows that the standard model, nor any other model that forsakes consciousness in its formulation, will ever be the correct ‘theory of everything’.

And although special relativity and quantum mechanics were, via the mathematical sleight of hand of renormalization, mathematically unified with one another in order to produce the very successful theory of Quantum Electrodynamics, no such mathematical sleight of hand exists for unifying General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics.

Professor Jeremy Bernstein states the situation as such, “there remains an irremediable difficulty. Every order reveals new types of infinities, and no finite number of renormalizations renders all the terms in the series finite.
The theory is not renormalizable.”

Quantum Leaps – Jeremy Bernstein – October 19, 2018
Excerpt: Divergent series notwithstanding, quantum electrodynamics yielded results of remarkable accuracy. Consider the magnetic moment of the electron. This calculation, which has been calculated up to the fifth order in ?, agrees with experiment to ten parts in a billion. If one continued the calculation to higher and higher orders, at some point the series would begin to break down. There is no sign of that as yet. Why not carry out a similar program for gravitation? One can readily write down the Feynman graphs that represent the terms in the expansion. Yet there remains an irremediable difficulty. Every order reveals new types of infinities, and no finite number of renormalizations renders all the terms in the series finite.
The theory is not renormalizable.
https://inference-review.com/article....m-leaps
Jeremy Bernstein is professor emeritus of physics at the Stevens Institute of Technology.

And as the following theoretical physicist noted, “You would need to add infinitely many counterterms in a never-ending process. Renormalization would fail.,,,”

Why Gravity Is Not Like the Other Forces
We asked four physicists why gravity stands out among the forces of nature. We got four different answers.
Excerpt: the quantum version of Einstein’s general relativity is “nonrenormalizable.”,,,
In quantum theories, infinite terms appear when you try to calculate how very energetic particles scatter off each other and interact. In theories that are renormalizable — which include the theories describing all the forces of nature other than gravity — we can remove these infinities in a rigorous way by appropriately adding other quantities that effectively cancel them, so-called counterterms. This renormalization process leads to physically sensible answers that agree with experiments to a very high degree of accuracy.
The problem with a quantum version of general relativity is that the calculations that would describe interactions of very energetic gravitons — the quantized units of gravity — would have infinitely many infinite terms. You would need to add infinitely many counterterms in a never-ending process. Renormalization would fail.,,,
Sera Cremonini – theoretical physicist – Lehigh University
https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-gra....0200615

And although there readily appears to be an infinite mathematical divide that forever separates Quantum Theory and General relativity, all hope is not lost for finding the correct ‘theory of everything’.

If we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, (as the Christian founders of modern physics originally envisioned and as is now empirically warranted with the closing of the ‘free-will loop-hole by Zeilinger and company), then we find a very plausible, empirically backed, reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum theory.

Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, although he was not directly addressing the ‘infinite’ mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers this insight into what the ‘unification’ of infinite God with finite man might look like mathematically:, Specifically he states, “The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.”

The End Of Christianity – Finding a Good God in an Evil World – Pg.31
William Dembski PhDs. Mathematics and Theology
Excerpt: “In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.”
http://www.designinference.com.....of_xty.pdf/....xty.pdf

Philippians 2:8-9
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

,,, and when we rightly allow the Agent Causality of God back into physics, as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company,

Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018
Excerpt: This experiment pushes back to at least 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today.
https://journals.aps.org/prl.....080403

,, then that provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”.


7
Bornagain77June 10, 2021 at 9:20 am
The Shroud of Turin is, by far, the most scientifically scrutinized ancient artifact from ancient history.

Here is a website that lists many of the scientific papers and articles that have been written on the Shroud of Turin over the years.

Shroud of Turin – Scientific Papers and Articles
https://www.shroud.com/library....#papers

In regards to gravity being dealt with in the Shroud of Turin, ?The following article states that ‘The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image.’

Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind
Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images.
https://academicjournals.org/journal....D029455

And in the following video, Isabel Piczek states,,, ‘The muscles of the body are absolutely not crushed against the stone of the tomb. They are perfect. It means the body is hovering between the two sides of the shroud. What does that mean? It means there is absolutely no gravity.’

“When you look at the image of the shroud, the two bodies next to each other, you feel that it is a flat image. But if you create, for instance, a three dimensional object, as I did, the real body, then you realize that there is a strange dividing element. An interface from which the image is projected up and the image is projected down. The muscles of the body are absolutely not crushed against the stone of the tomb. They are perfect. It means the body is hovering between the two sides of the shroud. What does that mean? It means there is absolutely no gravity. Other strange you discover is that the image is absolutely undistorted. Now if you imagine the clothe was wrinkled, tied, wrapped around the body, and all of the sudden you see a perfect image, which is impossible unless the shroud was made absolutely taut, rigidly taut.”
Isabel Piczek –
Turin shroud – (Particle Physicist explains the ‘event horizon’ on the Shroud of Turin) – video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....3_TWuiY

A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler
Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically.
http://www.khouse.org/article....847

Kevin Moran, an optical engineer, describes the Shroud Image in this way, “The unique front-and-back only image can be best described as gravitationally collimated. The radiation that made the image acted perfectly parallel to gravity. There is no side image. The radiation is parallel to gravity,,,”

Optically Terminated Image Pixels Observed on Frei 1978 Samples – Kevin E. Moran – 1999
Discussion
Pia’s negative photograph, from 1898, showed what looked to be a body that was glowing, but slightly submerged in a bath of cloudy water. This condition is more properly described as an image that is visible, at a distance, but by locally attenuated radiation. The unique front-and-back only image can be best described as gravitationally collimated. The radiation that made the image acted perfectly parallel to gravity. There is no side image. The radiation is parallel to gravity and, if moving at light speed, only lasted about 100 picoseconds. It is particulate in nature, colliding only with some of the fibers. It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique,,,
Theoretical model
It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed.
Discussion
The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.”
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs....ran.pdf

Moreover, besides gravity being dealt with on the Shroud of Turin, the Shroud also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics itself was dealt with. In the following paper, it was found that it was not possible to describe the image formation on the Shroud in classical terms but they found it necessary to describe the formation of the image on the Shroud in discrete quantum terms.

The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete (quantum) values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008
Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril.
http://cab.unime.it/mus....004.pdf

Moreover, the following rather astonishing study on the Shroud, found that it would take 34 Trillion Watts of what is termed VUV (directional) radiation to form the image on the shroud.

Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016
Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”.
‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come only to several billion watts)”.
Comment
The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion (trillion) Watts of VUV radiation to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.
http://www.predatormastersforu.....er=3014106/....3014106

So thus in conclusion, when we rightly allow the Agent Causality of God back into physics then a very plausible solution to the number one unsolved mystery in science today, of finding a reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, readily pops out for us in that, as the Shroud of Turin itself gives witness to, both Gravity and Quantum Mechanics were successfully dealt with in Christ’s resurrection from the dead.

Video and verses

Jesus Christ as the correct “Theory of Everything” – video
https://youtu.be/Vpn2Vu8....u8–eE

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,”

Colossians 1:15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,10:47   

Quote (Jkrebs @ June 10 2021,10:20)
First TKI, as in GEM of TKI, stands for the The Kairos Initiative, not The Knowledge Institute.

Second, KS's lastest post is 100% repetition. Just as soon as one runs its course, he shuffles his deck of cards and "write" a new one. And Barry praises him for it because they are the only posts that get any traffic.

You're right, I just found it on blogger.com, where Gordon refers to himself as "a caribbean-based applied scientist, educator and strategic change/transformation advocate and facilitator" which...yeah.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,10:52   

The Bornagain quote and the kairosfocus quote just tell us what we've known for a while, there are better things to attend to, these halfwits were played out years ago.

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,15:09   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2021,10:52)
The Bornagain quote and the kairosfocus quote just tell us what we've known for a while, there are better things to attend to, these halfwits were played out years ago.

If I had the choice between a colonoscopy or reading a KF OP, I will pull down my pants now.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,15:53   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 10 2021,16:09)
Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2021,10:52)
The Bornagain quote and the kairosfocus quote just tell us what we've known for a while, there are better things to attend to, these halfwits were played out years ago.

If I had the choice between a colonoscopy or reading a KF OP, I will pull down my pants now.

Both commenters are probably only interesting to psychiatrists.

Edited by stevestory on June 10 2021,16:53

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,17:17   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2021,15:53)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 10 2021,16:09)
 
Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2021,10:52)
The Bornagain quote and the kairosfocus quote just tell us what we've known for a while, there are better things to attend to, these halfwits were played out years ago.

If I had the choice between a colonoscopy or reading a KF OP, I will pull down my pants now.

Both commenters are probably only interesting to psychiatrists.

Which is all the more reason for shutting down this thread. Criticizing IDists for the flaws in their logic is one thing, but their reasoning is so flawed that we are resorting to laugh at them. I don’t see the point.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,18:28   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 10 2021,18:17)
Which is all the more reason for shutting down this thread. Criticizing IDists for the flaws in their logic is one thing, but their reasoning is so flawed that we are resorting to laugh at them. I don’t see the point.

On January 16, 2006, I started the first UD thread specifically to make fun of them. JAD? Dembski banning people willy-nilly? DaveScot being a Macho Tuff Guy? They were ridiculous to begin with.

It’s just gotten boring. If you go back to UD in the year 2026, and Barry hasn’t sold it off by then, Kairosfocus will have long winded rants with shitty graphics about how the world is coming to an end because people aren’t as bigoted as he is anymore, and he is Objectively Bigoted mind you, and bornagain will be rambling about the shroud of quantum Turin and cutting and pasting from his manifesto, And it’ll be just as boring in five years as it is now.

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,19:12   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2021,18:28)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ June 10 2021,18:17)
Which is all the more reason for shutting down this thread. Criticizing IDists for the flaws in their logic is one thing, but their reasoning is so flawed that we are resorting to laugh at them. I don’t see the point.

On January 16, 2006, I started the first UD thread specifically to make fun of them. JAD? Dembski banning people willy-nilly? DaveScot being a Macho Tuff Guy? They were ridiculous to begin with.

It’s just gotten boring. If you go back to UD in the year 2026, and Barry hasn’t sold it off by then, Kairosfocus will have long winded rants with shitty graphics about how the world is coming to an end because people aren’t as bigoted as he is anymore, and he is Objectively Bigoted mind you, and bornagain will be rambling about the shroud of quantum Turin and cutting and pasting from his manifesto, And it’ll be just as boring in five years as it is now.

Ridiculing them for flawed science is one thing. Many of them back then were sane but woefully inadequate to present a scientific argument. But we are now laughing at people who obviously suffer from serious mental illnesses or pathological religious mania. I’m not comfortable with that. That is why I was in favour of shutting down Joe’s thread. I am as guilty as anyone else, but I think it is time to acknowledge serious mental illness and treat them with sympathy and support rather that ridicule.

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,20:08   

Yeah that’s why I got keen on this idea in the last few days.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,20:12   

We probably should’ve taken it more seriously a few years ago when somebody tracked down a relative of bornagain and had a chat and they said yeah, his behavior has really hurt our family over the years.

   
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2021,20:14   

Some people don’t check in here very often anymore for understandable reasons so I want to give it a little more time before I make a decision about the thread.

   
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2021,02:50   

Quote (stevestory @ June 10 2021,20:14)
Some people don’t check in here very often anymore for understandable reasons so I want to give it a little more time before I make a decision about the thread.

As an occasional poster, put me down for closing the thread.

--------------
The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
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