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Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,18:28   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 12 2009,16:14)
 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 12 2009,18:51)
If I cross a red flower with a white flower, I may get a red flower, I may get a white flower, or I may - in some instances - get a pink flower.  Pink colored petals is a morphological feature not present in either parent.  Does this meet my challenge too?
My wife and I are both right-handed.  Our children are both left-handed.  Left-handedness is a morphological feature not present in both parents.  Does this also meet my challenge?
Your argument is so absurd, quite frankly I'm surprised that you are even putting it out there.
If this is the best you can do - you've lost.
I've admitted when I was wrong throughout this discussion.  This is not one of those times.  Maybe it's time for you to admit that you're wrong.

You are utterly clueless about Biology, Daniel.

Completely, utterly, clueless.

This is very basic Bio 111 stuff. You're totally wrong about it, and yet you're going to overturn 150 years of biological research?

Daniel, seriously, you are fundamentally ignorant. What's really sad is that you have a vast resource freely available right at your fingertips, and you're too busy stomping your feet and screaming "Nuh uh" to take advantage of it.

That makes you as stupid as you are ignorant.

What part of recombination do I not understand?

That's the issue here.

Albatrossity is pointing to hybridized flowers whose morphology consistently changes in a known direction through recombination.

Recombination is the mechanism here.

He's trying to pass this off as the "evolution of a new biological system from known precursors" in order to "meet" my challenge.

But, if that's the case, then every instance of recombination meets my challenge.

(hint - it doesn't- which is why posted the "absurd" examples).

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,18:43   

Just to be sure I wasn't missing something or reading your intent incorrectly, I went back and reread the subconversation with Alby.

Nope, I didn't.

You're still wrong.

You're still ignorant.

And you're still stupid.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,18:47   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 12 2009,19:43)
Just to be sure I wasn't missing something or reading your intent incorrectly, I went back and reread the subconversation with Alby.

Nope, I didn't.

You're still wrong.

You're still ignorant.

And you're still stupid.

And like it that way.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,18:56   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 12 2009,17:51)
If I cross a red flower with a white flower, I may get a red flower, I may get a white flower, or I may - in some instances - get a pink flower.  Pink colored petals is a morphological feature not present in either parent.  Does this meet my challenge too?
My wife and I are both right-handed.  Our children are both left-handed.  Left-handedness is a morphological feature not present in both parents.  Does this also meet my challenge?
Your argument is so absurd, quite frankly I'm surprised that you are even putting it out there.
If this is the best you can do - you've lost.
I've admitted when I was wrong throughout this discussion.  This is not one of those times.  Maybe it's time for you to admit that you're wrong.

Daniel

Well, if you want to think that your red/white flower system meets your challenge, that's up to you. It's frankly idiotic, since we know that in most situations, if the pink  flower color is determined by a single pair of incompletely dominant alleles (as is the case in snapdragons), the F2 generation from a cross of pink x pink flowered F1 plants will yield some red and white flowers again. Simple Mendelian genetics; maybe you can read about it someday.

That is not the case with these new species of Tragopogon. The novel plants breed true; the flowers remain the same as in the F1 plants. It is a novel complex (and stable) morphogenetic system where we know the immediate precursors. It fulfills your criteria, you know it, and we all know it. In addition, it is an example of speciation within the past few decades.

Merely asserting that an argument is absurd is not an argument. You need to tell us why it is absurd, and so far you haven't managed to do that. All of your arguments have been shot down, and yet you still can't bring yourself to take that first toddler step toward scientific thinking and admit that you are wrong.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,19:04   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 12 2009,18:28)
What part of recombination do I not understand?

That's the issue here.

Albatrossity is pointing to hybridized flowers whose morphology consistently changes in a known direction through recombination.

Recombination is the mechanism here.

He's trying to pass this off as the "evolution of a new biological system from known precursors" in order to "meet" my challenge.

But, if that's the case, then every instance of recombination meets my challenge.

(hint - it doesn't- which is why posted the "absurd" examples).

Daniel

Perhaps you could look up the proper definition of terms like "recombination" before you use them here.

It would have saved me from spewing beer all over my monitor had you done that this time.

No, this is not recombination. It is, unfortunately for your position, an example of a novel and complex morphogenetic system where we know the immediate precursors

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,19:07   

This is a test.

I am attempting to post this in the thread created for me by Alan Fox entitled "Evolution of the horse; a problem for Darwinism? A place for Daniel Smith to present his argument".  
Quote (Alan Fox @ Sep. 18 2007,13:27)
I have been posting at ISCID and my old friend, Professor Davison, suggested, in his usual forthright style, a fellow poster, Daniel Smith, should try posting here :      
Quote
Daniel Smith

Better yet, go over to Panda's Thumb and present your views there and see just how far you will get. Look at what is happening to Martin at After The Bar Closes. It is disgusting. I tried to deal with those animals and was banned for life. Like Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb is a closed union shop. Trust me or learn for yourself.


So I extended an invitation to Daniel, confident he will receive a warm welcome.

Daniel has stated ( please correct me if I mis-state your view)that Leo Berg in "Nomogenesis" and Otto Schindewolf in "Basic Questions in Paleontology" both produce good arguments against RM and NS using the evolution of the horse as an example.

Hope to hear from you, Daniel.


If this post ends up on the bathroom wall, then I guess I'll have to stay there.

If it appears in my thread, then Louis can have his bathroom wall back.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,19:08   

I tried.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,19:16   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 12 2009,19:07)
Bill, I'll admit that I'm prejudiced when it comes to human ancestry.  I don't want us to be descended from apes, so I need extra convincing when it comes to that.  It's my bias.  I'm not sure how we fit into the picture re: evolution.  I'd like to believe we are a special creation of God, but I'm not wed to the idea.

Wishing something not to be true is NOT a basis for concluding that it is not true, or even unlikely to be true. I gather from your response that you have no basis for doubting that human beings and other great apes share a common ancestor other than your wishes and biases. The science is absolutely clear, however: human beings share common ancestry with the great apes (most recently with chimps and bonobos).
             
Quote
As for your other questions:  Common ancestry is compatible with front-loaded evolution.

My point is that front-loading is irrelevant to the emergence of humanity IF human beings did not descend from SOME ancestor species or other.
                 
Quote
As for the "immediate precursor", I don't think you understand what I mean by that.  I'm asking for the immediate precursor to an extant biological system - with the evolutionary path between them.

I don't think you understand what you have already conceded. If you agree that there is no basis for reasonable doubt that bonobos and chimpanzees (which surely themselves meet the definition of "complex biological systems") share a common ancestor, then you are stating that there is no reasonable doubt that a) there was such a precursor, and b) both populations progressed from that ancestral form to the organisms we see today by means of an unbroken succession of individuals reproducing over the intervening 2.5 million years, culminating in the organisms we know today.
         
Quote
 It's not enough to just point to something and say that it's the immediate precursor.  The two must be connected by a real pathway.

Not enough for what? Your statement that there can be no reasonable doubt of chimp-bonobo common ancestry does all the work that needs to be done. You've already conceded everything important in this discussion, as above. Of course we would like to know more about both that precursor and those intermediates, but the soundness of this inference (of precursor and intermediates progressing to the systems we observe today) depends in no way upon those additional findings.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,20:26   

Har har har here's a photo of Daniel Smith's friend, TARDavison:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....MG]

Har har har.  

Oh, wait, maybe Danny doesn't get it?

:)     :)      :)      :O[IMG]

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,20:28   

Grrrrrrrr, images and I aren't getting along so good lately.  Sorry 'bout that, gang.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,20:33   

Here's the image I was shooting for:


  
Leftfield



Posts: 107
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,22:01   

Quote
As for the "immediate precursor", I don't think you understand what I mean by that.  I'm asking for the immediate precursor to an extant biological system - with the evolutionary path between them.  It's not enough to just point to something and say that it's the immediate precursor.  The two must be connected by a real pathway.

Daniel
What do you mean by an immediate precursor? If it's immediate, there is no pathway, there's only one step.

I forget, are you an ID supporter? Can you provide an example of a system and its immediate precursor where the difference between them is too great to be traversed by evolution as it is generally understood? What is the immediate precursor to a bacterial flagellum?

--------------
Speaking for myself, I have long been confused . . .-Denyse O'Leary

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,02:47   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 13 2009,00:20)
 
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 12 2009,03:47)
     
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 12 2009,01:08)
The condescension here never ceases to amaze me.  It's a defense mechanism you know.  Why are you all so defensive?
[snip]
Louis: I don't think your reading comprehension is all you crack it up to be.

Complaints about condescension implies it isn't accurate for us to condescend to you.

Denial, you self admittedly are not a scientist. You self admittedly have made poor arguments here. People have gone to some lengths to point this out to you with varying degrees of politeness. When you appeal to conspiracies and stupidity amongst a community of hundreds of thousands of hard working, qualified scientists simply because their fact based findings are at odds with your interpretation of your religion, you are so far from reason as to be unrecognisable. What you call "defensiveness" is merely irritation at your ignorant arrogance. As you well know.

Do you truly expect that people will not remember what you have said, how you have said it, and why? Not everyone is as stupid, ignorant and arrogantly proud of it as you are Denial.

Louis

Point me to one time I've "appeal[ed] to conspiracies and stupidity amongst a community of hundreds of thousands of hard working, qualified scientists".

I may have called some of you "evotards" or something similar when your arguments are silly, (usually after several insults have been thrown my way), but I've not accused a whole community of scientists of "stupidity" or of being part of a "conspiracy".

If you feel superior to me, I've sure not seen any evidence of it here, (other than your skills at insults and condescension).

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Louis

ETA: So Danny, remind me, for what reason does the ENTIRE* scientific community, especially those informed about the subject and working in relevant areas, disagree with your claims? Why would they, if and when presented with your claims, find them as vacuous as I/we do here at AtBC?

*Barring the odd crank.

Oh and feel superior to you? Why on earth would anyone feel such a thing? Strange little man, get those chips off your semi-literate shoulders.

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,02:50   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 13 2009,01:07)
This is a test.

I am attempting to post this in the thread created for me by Alan Fox entitled "Evolution of the horse; a problem for Darwinism? A place for Daniel Smith to present his argument".    
Quote (Alan Fox @ Sep. 18 2007,13:27)
I have been posting at ISCID and my old friend, Professor Davison, suggested, in his usual forthright style, a fellow poster, Daniel Smith, should try posting here :      
Quote
Daniel Smith

Better yet, go over to Panda's Thumb and present your views there and see just how far you will get. Look at what is happening to Martin at After The Bar Closes. It is disgusting. I tried to deal with those animals and was banned for life. Like Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb is a closed union shop. Trust me or learn for yourself.


So I extended an invitation to Daniel, confident he will receive a warm welcome.

Daniel has stated ( please correct me if I mis-state your view)that Leo Berg in "Nomogenesis" and Otto Schindewolf in "Basic Questions in Paleontology" both produce good arguments against RM and NS using the evolution of the horse as an example.

Hope to hear from you, Daniel.


If this post ends up on the bathroom wall, then I guess I'll have to stay there.

If it appears in my thread, then Louis can have his bathroom wall back.

Hardly mine. The Wall is for all of us. Personally I'd prefer the smell to not include your particular species of turd.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,03:01   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 12 2009,18:07)
 I'm asking for the immediate precursor to an extant biological system - with the evolutionary path between them.  It's not enough to just point to something and say that it's the immediate precursor.  The two must be connected by a real pathway.

Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate. Citrate.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Lenski_results_challenge_creationism

Quote
   * After the beneficial mutation which gave it the ability to metabolize citrate had been fixed in the population the bacteria, they would have looked like organisms "designed" to metabolize citrate. But in this case we have seen that this ability came about as a result of the evolutionary process. As it can be seen that evolution, and not intelligent design, was the driver then it clearly shows that the apparent evidence of design is in no way real evidence of design.
   * This experiment also gives a big problem to more scientifically-minded believers in ID such as Michael Behe. He has claimed that the sheer improbability of a sequence of mutations leading to a change of this type means that evolution simply cannot happen as has been proposed. The fact that Lenski's citrate-eating bacteria have managed a three-mutation step to get where they are in a mere twenty years gives the lie to his objections and sheds significant doubt on the assertions in his book The Edge of Evolution.


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,03:10   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn7zLGJE9EY

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,03:15   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 13 2009,10:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn7zLGJE9EY

Nice :)

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,03:20   

The video above is from the SSE.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,04:06   

Daniel, whether you have been less than respectful and polite or not towards RB, Louis and the rest here, maybe you should consider the fact that your entire approach, with lengthy quotes, sermons and some rather dubious/irrelevant statements are by themselves a gross insult that expose ignorance not only about evolution but also a confusion stemming from your expressed goal: To have your faith and religious beliefs confirmed.

If you had faith you would not need confirmation from science. something like 'Doubting Thomas' comes to mind.

You are reaching for the moon but it still is 300.000 km away.

Have you listened to suggestions about what you should read?

The first thing you should know and understand, if you want to  engage scientists in debate is to leave your god out of it. Is that too much to ask?

I know they couldn't care less, nor is it relevant. Nor are your motives, the only thing that counts is: Do you want to learn? Do you want to understand? You ought to know by now that you won't get the answer you desperately are seeking here.

You have been treated with much more respect and patience than I think you deserve, even more than you have shown yourself. Your entire collection of postings is an insult to science and its representatives.

See, all you ever might obtain is an understanding of what science knows, what it says - but that would not solve your problem.

As a Gnostic, I can only laugh at your problem, I don't even feel sorry for you. Humility is not one of your Christian virtues, is it? Reminds me of Ray Martinez. Had English been my language I might have taught you a real lesson.

But words are wasted on you.

In his preface to "The Wisdom of Insecurity" (1954), Alan Watts wrote:

 
Quote
This book is written in the spirit of the Chinese sage Lao-tzu, that master of the law of reversed effort, who declared
that those who justify themselves do not convince, that to know truth one must get rid of knowledge, and that nothing is more powerful and creative than emptiness - from which men shrink. Here, then, my aim is to show - backwards fashion - that those essential realities of religion and metaphysics are vindicated in doing without them, and manifest in being destroyed.


--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,04:20   

Interesting interview of Adam Gopnik about his new book "Angels and Ages" in yesterday night's Colbert Report. The book is mainly exploring Darwin's and Lincoln's legacy...

Colbert report 02/12/2009

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,05:10   

I just love the dubious reasoning of Denial and his ilk:

1) My religion says (IMO) that humans = teh speshul
2) If humans evolved from animals then they are not teh speshul
3) Therefore scientists be wrong when they say humans evolved from animals
4) Therefore evolution is wrong/needs modifying to fit 1)

I'd add steps involving projection, misrepresenting atheism, etc but there's little need. It's not about the science for these people. It doesn't matter that 1) is dubious at best (there are religious formulations that can accommodate science to some extent), 2) is at best a total non sequitur based on the prejudice of the individual expressing it, 3) is the standard expression that Denial et al's ignorance is as good as anyone relevant's knowledge, and 4) is a manifestation of the entrenched culture war mentality of the perpetually deluded claiming false persecution. It's fallacious from start to finish. Hence, amazingly, and I may have said this before, why I recommend a little basic learning BEFORE these people bloviate about science. They aren't ready for science when they cannot manage basic thought.

What more needs to be said about Denial et al than this?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,06:08   

Quote
Bill, I'll admit that I'm prejudiced when it comes to human ancestry.  I don't want us to be descended from apes, so I need extra convincing when it comes to that.  It's my bias.  I'm not sure how we fit into the picture re: evolution.  I'd like to believe we are a special creation of God, but I'm not wed to the idea.


It's my special little dirty secret.  ooooh, I need your extra convincing soooooooo much baby.  It's my bias.  You know you want it.  Like it?  Watch it move.  It's so big and strong.  You can play with my bias but you'll never take it away from me, it's attached to me at the short and curlies.  Evidence shmevidence Reason Shleason look at this big throbbing sonofabitch.  Wanna touch it?  My bias has no scruples and eschews honesty and consistency.  It'll drive you wild.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,06:35   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 13 2009,11:10)
Hence, amazingly, and I may have said this before, why I recommend a little basic learning BEFORE these people bloviate about science. They aren't ready for science when they cannot manage basic thought.

Considering the willingness to, ahem, creatively quote sources, I seriously doubt anything of substance would stick.

Needless to say, you are clearly a much more generous person than I.

Edit: Tried to turn it into english.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:11   

Quote
Darwin's Bracelet has been inspired by parts of the human / hominina evolution: Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens. The skulls are handmade from porcelain and metal.



from here

I don't wear jewellery but that IS tempting.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:52   

Divergent Evolution of Duplicate Genes Leads to Genetic Incompatibilities within Arabidopsis thaliana

D Bikard et al. 2008.  Science 323(30):  623-626

Suck It Denial.  Your claims are worthless.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Damian



Posts: 7
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,20:56   

As Daniel is still around, and as I'm the local neighborhood snake oil salesperson theologian, I thought that I'd reproduce this (ever so sorry if it bores everyone else):

 
Quote
Intelligent Design Rules Out God's Sovereignty Over Chance

Practitioners of the "intelligent design" brand of creationism, much like Molière’s Physician in Spite of Himself, not only belie the true nature of their avocation and motives, but also play fast and loose with a commonly held precept.  They tacitly negate the clear and completely traditional parameters that illuminate the position of chance occurrence in our universe.

As a consequence, creationism's familiar yet totally unscriptural chimera of "accidental evolution" now lives on as the centerpiece and all-around bogeyman of intelligent design.  The results of this legacy could not be sharper.  Chance occurrence (randomness), whether guided or not, can be incremental, hence fully evolutionary.  Design is all at once or not at all, with only minor variability possible.  Perhaps it's time for advocates of this limiting position to go back to square one.

How often do we see people settle an otherwise contentious decision by tossing a coin or by drawing straws near the climax of one of those tense action movies?  It seems fair to all because it's random and impartial, and most people seem to acknowledge this without any hesitation.  Here's the larger issue.  What proponents of so-called intelligent design have cynically omitted in their polemic is that according to Biblical tradition, chance has always been considered God's choice as well.

When Joshua divided the newly won Promised Land of Canaan among the tribes of Israel, it was done as had been specifically commanded by God through the casting of lots...in other words, by a roll of the dice.  In Acts of the Apostles, the remaining apostles chose between two proposed replacements for Judas by casting lots, clearly understood as a solemn appeal for God's own choice.  The Bible abounds with similar examples.

So, from this viewpoint, just how random is randomness in God's most solemn and magnificent work of creation?  Today's scientists will readily tell you that in this "queerer than we can suppose" universe, as J.B.S. Haldane put it, order appears to be continually leaping forth from chaos.  An uneasy boundary seems to interface certain unequivocally random initiations and their ultimately deterministic course of outcomes.  Some decades ago, I heard the truly fascinating topic of randomness in our natural world beautifully unraveled in a spellbinding lecture series by Paul Weiss.  I have considered it a remarkable and mysterious subject  ever since.

I am, however, easily able to draw one inescapable conclusion: the chance vs. intelligence debate we are seeing today is about faith and not about science.  For the skeptic, all chance can remain truly blind and so it should.  For the scripturally-guided believer, however, an omnipotent God would have to be in charge of absolutely everything by definition.  God as "designer" is already built into this metaphysical view of chaos, which triumphantly includes no true randomness component whatever.

Such overwhelming control would have to preside over any number of even the tiniest chance biochemical mutations and over any possible span of time.  This would certainly stack the deck prior to natural selection.  For truly rigorous people of the Book, there is no accidental evolution because there is no accidental anything.  As is so often proclaimed in worship, God is in control.  This credo should be all any believer of the precept would need to add from their own spiritual understanding in order to explain and integrate any construct based on scientific research into their world view.  Everyone could be happy.

But this is not the case.  Astonishing as it may seem, the stigmatization of chance as the lynchpin both of creationism and intelligent design is not only a totally unscriptural position, but it is borrowed from the atheist viewpoint.  You may not ever hear this preached, but for the Bible believer, God can roll the dice infinitely and win at every turn.  Much as I cringe at feeling compelled to disagree with Albert Einstein, I have to consider, along with Ralph Waldo Emerson, that perhaps God does play at dice with the universe, but only with those ontologically loaded dice.

I can already begin to hear some rumblings coming from the Amen Corner.  "Proof text!  So where's your proof text!"  Okay, it's here, plain and simple, what some might call prophetic correction: "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." (Proverbs 16:33, NASB.)

Yes, people of the era in which this line was written made their own instant gaming tables by sitting or squatting on the ground and casting lots, a game of chance equivalent to dice, perhaps on a portable game board held in their laps.  Now, for those who would counter that even the devil can quote scripture, I might be willing to agree, but would have to point out that he doesn't get to write it, too, and this is just too clear a proclamation to misconstrue in any way.  Every toss of the dice -- that is, every decision based on chance -- can only mean one thing when it comes to a fiercely unequivocal deity.

Accordingly, the rejection of biological evolution based essentially on the part played by chance, which appears to have become the sum and substance of intelligent design, is in fact a rhetorical chimera, an unworthy trick from those who should know better and probably hope that no one, not even their "designer," is able to catch them at it.  The intelligent design movement has become an unabashedly transparent fig leaf for the urge to insert sectarian creationism into every science curriculum and text.  Can any believer truly honor God with such dissimulation?

Instead of arguing disingenuously on behalf of faith that blind chance alone cannot produce such levels of order as science reveals, why don't creationists and their heirs simply state that on scriptural grounds they believe God's hand orders all chance and be done with it?  That would certainly put God squarely into the picture for any who choose to agree and would obviate the need to torture science in order to prove anything at all.  Simply stated, as with any casino, the house always wins.

Most critically, this would also suggest a distinct mechanism through which the "designer" might participate in guiding the physical universe.  At present, intelligent design is simply a wish, not even a well-framed hypothesis.  It must offer a testable interfacing mechanism between the "intelligence" and matter in order to meet the minimum threshold of being science at all.  Since this has not even been hinted at, why substitute a charade of nit-picking at science for a simple and honest declaration of faith?  Such a declaration would posit that what science demonstrates in the physical world also constitutes, within the limits of our understanding, precisely what God intended.

This notion that God's hand orders chance hardly represents a new viewpoint among religious scholars.  Theologians have long held that what God desires to happen through chance will happen through chance.  Nor is this position confined to the basic understandings of any one faith.  Yet, intelligent design proponents insist on defining chance for everyone as designer-less even while science itself does not, simply because this issue crosses over into the metaphysical, beyond where physical science permits itself to go.

We're surely overdue for a Sic et Non examination of this dicey and irreducible contradiction in the creationist viewpoint, which tirelessly propels the flagellum of intelligent design as well.  I will leave it to the reader to decide to what extent the aggressive promulgation of sectarian religion in science education has helped stoke the greatest blacklash against faith in anyone's recollection.

Is there a clever reason why intelligent design proponents, even those of a professed religious bent, persist in avoiding this  seemingly inescapable axiom from their own songbook?  Must they avoid putting God in charge of chance because it would also demonstrate once and for all that this inescapably religious precept, while perfectly legitimate for believers, does not support any insights from alternative science that need to be taught in schools?

I'm sure intelligent design proponents also realize that without their fatuous red herring, in terms of scripture, about what constitutes randomness, all that's left of this "new" anti-evolutionary argument is the same old rejection of the increasingly well-founded concept that all living things may belong to one truly amazing and ancient family.  It's just the same old monkey business over again.

But that appears, when viewed honestly, to have been the real sticking point all along, right from those heady days of Darwin, Huxley and Bishop "Soapy Sam" Wilberforce.  Might it be the horrific prospect of dethroning man from his cherished position as preeminent mini-god of this earth?  Half a millenium ago, the outraged predecessors of those who would currently deny the progress of scientific evidence railed against the prospect of earth itself being dethroned as the dimple of the entire universe around which the sun and all the planets and stars revolved.

On the other hand, I am also amazed that scientists defending evolution fail to convincingly point out that a dead mechanical invention like a watch or a mousetrap cannot in any way explain the design process of living systems that reproduce, recycle and recombine changeable components infinitely, regardless of function.  You'll never find a watch with anomalous spare gear wheels, but many animals are continually born with useless extra limbs.  Life is just full of untidy surprises.

For some of us who identify ourselves as people of faith, the creationist notion that God's existence must be proved, particularly with sleight-of-hand maneuvers, is philosophically toxic as well.  If such proof were ever possible to achieve, it would obviate the all-important value of faith as central to the life of the believer.  It would also mean that pleasing God would forever after become stiflingly legalistic and merely as rational as searching for the best interest rates.  In evangelical terms, the crassest of pragmatists might soon be storming the Pearly Gates in droves, quite possibly leaving behind them in the dust those self-doubting, compulsively conscientious and genuinely perplexed souls who have always lived and ultimately triumphed in their search for life's meaning primarily by faith rather than by sight.

Curious, isn't it, that no matter how much scientific data we add to the mix, it still isn't possible either to prove or disprove God's existence?  Our great human dilemma seems as persistent as any other universal constant -- it remains forever a matter of choice....a matter of faith, and that is indeed a remarkably intelligent design.


Of course, I don't expect it to do any good. Good job everyone.

Something to keep in mind, however: you should never argue with an idiot, as the the best possible outcome is that you win an argument with an idiot.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,21:36   

I've thought much the same thing about the theological deep-sixing of chance as how God expresses His will. Newton and the determinists did altogether too well in influencing thought, so it seems that the conception of God the Creator became synonymous with a creator of the sort of clockwork universe beloved of physical scientists of the late 18th century. There was no place for chance there, and ascribing chance to God seemed to demean God's intellect as having irrational components. (Ironically, Dembski's arguments taken to their conclusion also yield that result.)

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,04:39   

Wait a second. Given that Denial is now back on his own thread does this mean our toilet is now clean?

If so, hurrah and gadzooks!

Louis

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Bye.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,05:25   



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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,05:29   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 14 2009,12:25)

Awwwww!!!

TEH CUTE!!! Iz CANT STAND IT!

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
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