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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Cultism and child abuse

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Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 26 2006,11:16    Quote ok to kill women and children if God told you to do it. oh THAT. oh, yeah, that's a common part of the creobot mindset too; devaluing human life at the same time they decry abortion. It gives them the excuse to do any range of behaviors. IIRC, this is known as "displacement". Edit: hmm, actually now that i think about it more, that's not exactly the correct term for it either; but I think it's perhaps because the freudian explanations for the types of behaviors exhibited by creobots just fit so well.  I also seem to recall the term "trasnferance" being loosely used to describe this phenomenon as well, but I still haven't been able to recall what the modern usage is. /edit Essentially what it means is that they can displace their own guilt over their actions onto something or someone else. Also, I seem to recall it being commonly exhibted by sociopaths, but not as sure about that one. so, yeah, in that sense when someone exhibits extreme displacement that would add to the sense that they would shift farther towards the "dangerous whacky" end of the scale. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,07:42    (bump) I know I said this a few months ago, but I really feel the need to reiterate. Anecdotally, I think I can safely say that folks like AFDave bump religious fundyism a few points on the TOSICA. Watching him over the past few months has really been enlightening.  (AFDave, that's BAD news for you, not good.) The extreme denial of reality at all costs can't be good for kids.  It has to stunt their education horribly. [EDIT for spelling] -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 20 2007,21:18    there have been several threads over on Pharyngula of late with heated debate on this issue, so I'm bumping this thread to visibility for stragglers who I invited from over in that neck of the woods. so, *bump* -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,08:22    Heh, funny.  I just popped in to bump this thread.  I had been thinking I'd be interested in hearing Spags' thoughts as a fellow ex-fundy type. You beat me to the punch.  Better Nate than lever, I s'pose. *bump anyway* -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,13:54    I'm finding that once you get folks into the mode of thinking about indoctrination in terms of child abuse, they then start to realize what a difficult issue it really is, and bail out. I've invited many people to offer their thoughts on this thread over the last few months, and not one has taken up the offer. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,15:19    Given the current social/political climate wherein christianity tends to get special deference for no apparent reason other than popularity, it's not surprising that people hesitate.  It often seems to me to be ingrained in our society that christianity is somehow special, that it is not classed with other religions, that it enjoys special privilege. I wonder if some of that is due to or is revealed in the word "god".  I suppose we all have noticed that whenever someone speaks of the gods of other religions, they are called by name, yet christianity has for all intents and purposes co-opted the generic for use as its god's name. Hmm.. how to be more clear on what I'm saying... It's like christianity and all its trappings are the assumption, the default.  If I say to you "I'm going to church" or "God is blah blah" our society is so steeped in christian tradition that you probably wouldn't even consider that I might be speaking of any other church or god unless I specifically made a point of mentioning it. This works in the fundies' favor, most of the time.  Even if I refer to "a cult" it's almost a given that I'm not referring to any christian sect, in popular parlance.  In fact, I'm fairly sure that "a cult" by most Americans' definition is "any non-christian religion". Sad that one religion gets a free pass on just about everything.  Interesting that the same religion is the one most fond of crying "Persecution!!!!" In any event, I find it unsurprising that there is a hesitation to indict christianity at large for child abuse, even in its most extreme forms. Depressing, but unsurprising. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,15:23    P.S.  Both Janie and I have posted and pointed to this thread today on our respective blogs.  Perhaps we might gain a participant or two. Just so y'know. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

PennyBright Posts: 78 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,19:11    I'm still here - I've peeked on the thread from time to time over the past year,  but not had anything new to contribute. I would like to see the discussion resume - the dangers of religiosity to children is a topic near to my heart. Interesting comments on displacement, Ichthyic -- isn't that almost by definition what much of Christian dogma is supposed to encourage in believers -- the faith that the guilt for their sins as been assumed by Jesus, and they are redeemed through his sacrifice? -------------- Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - Shakespeare (reputedly)

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,19:28    Hi PennyBright! Good to see you're still checking. There's a similarly themed thread over on Pharyngula that went up yesterday. Child Abuse?  Or not? Worth a read.  (You'll find Ichthyic amongst the 150+ comments there.) Ichthyic posted a link to this thread, so perhaps the conversation here will pick up as that thread falls off Dr. PZ's front page. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

PennyBright Posts: 78 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:10    Heya Lou  :)   I saw PZ's thread - I generally take a look his headlines a few times a week,  but I tend to stay out of the comments - they get contentious.   I do hope that some of the commentors will wander over here.   The particular case he discusses is a tricky one,  and I think depends alot on what a person thinks of religious upbringings in general -- those inclined to be anti-religious will,  I think,  be much more likely to see the situation as abusive.   Personally,  I don't know enough to comment as to the abusiveness of it -- but I find the abusive potential of the situation very worrying.     On the other hand -- some kids are capable of passionately embracing  something they want to do,  and will - if enabled - spend huge chunks of their life on it.   When my daughter took ballet and gymnastics we met kids who were fanatic about their sports --  if this kid has gotten a bee in his bonnet about street preaching,  is it any more abusive for his parents to enable him then it is for the parents of those sport obsessed kids to enable them? Of course I'm begging the question as to what degree of 'kid enabling' is acceptable, and what point enabling becomes itself abusive. -------------- Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - Shakespeare (reputedly)

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:24    Quote Interesting comments on displacement, Ichthyic -- isn't that almost by definition what much of Christian dogma is supposed to encourage in believers -- the faith that the guilt for their sins as been assumed by Jesus, and they are redeemed through his sacrifice? interesting thought. I've been far more on the extreme end of things over on PZ's blog, mostly because I think someone needs to be. it reminds me a LOT of the arguments a couple decades back about the issue of corporal punishment. at one time, corporal punishment was quite acceptable, even in schools. attitudes change... I still need to take a closer look again at that article that came out in last month's Science about early childhood influences on creationism. I think some clues are to be found there, too. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:36    Quote (Ichthyic @ June 21 2007,21:24) it reminds me a LOT of the arguments a couple decades back about the issue of corporal punishment. at one time, corporal punishment was quite acceptable, even in schools. attitudes change... Growing up in the Deeeep South I've seen my own attitudes dramatically change. They used to be pretty conservative, including on things like spankings. After I was exposed to well-behaved kids, from intelligent families, who were reasoned with in disciplinary moments, and compared those to the kids I know who're now in prison in Florida (BTW prison in Florida is no joke, especially Raiford) who were disciplined via beatings, my opinions gave way to the evidence.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:40    and I've seen more and more evidence, from the people who have suffered through religious cultism, to indicate directly the permanent damage it causes. eventually, it will be recognized just like other kinds of cults are now, and likely stigmatized in a similar fashion. I predict that twenty years from now, we'll be looking back and seeing that's exactly what happened. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:49    Society has changed pretty dramatically just in my short lifetime. Growing up on the playgrounds of north Florida it was "Nigger this" "Nigger that". I doubt you'd find that now. I was watching a 70's cop show with a friend, I don't remember the show, but the cop yells after a fleeing suspect, "FREEZE FAGGOT!". And we sort of looked at each other like, 'say what now?'. 20 years ago when my brother wanted a Michael Jordan t-shirt my grandmother asked, "Why do you want a shirt with a nigger on it?" As static as cultures can be, this one's changed pretty drastically, for the good, in the last generation. Discriminations based on race and sexuality are diminishing. They're being replaced by voluntary cultural identity. For instance, I'd say even though most of the people here are straight white folk, we'd get along with a black gay scientist who accepted evolution a million times faster than we'd get along with a white, straight creationist.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:54    it's kinda hard to keep it in perspective sometimes, but yeah, things have changed a lot, and for the better, over the last 40 years. good reminder. it's also another thing that keeps me thinking that the damage religious indoctrination causes will eventually be recognized. I look at movies like "Jesus Camp", and see that it's already happening. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,20:58    My first awareness of the amount of change was in high school in the early 90's, a friend told me, "my grandmother said, when she was growing up, if a black person was walking on the same sidewalk as you, they'd have to get off the sidewalk as you came by, or somebody'd beat em up." and because i'd met his grandma, and she was still alive, it struck me as a very immediate thing. Not something from a history book.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,21:06    heck, I see it in my own father, who had friends in the Japanese concentration camps in California during WWII. He just saw that Iraqis can get work visas in the US today, and his first comment was: what the hell do we need those terrorists over here for? I had to remind him about his best buddy, Dave Fujioka, who was taken along with his family to the camps during WWII, and how his current attitude is no different than the attitude that allowed his best buddy to be taken away, for no other reason than the fact that he was Japanese. It's interesting how new generations, exposed to new ideas, will embrace them and allow for change, even as older generations cannot. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,21:31    Yeah, I saw a version of that myself. Had an elderly doctor in Florida, he was obviously japanese, his name was, well, for privacy reasons let's call him Dr. Fujimora. A japanese guy from central casting. He was more Japanese than Toshiro Mifune. I'd learned a little japanese and asked him a few questions to try out my new skills. He pretended not to hear me. He would not admit to being Japanese around white folk. Racism affects people deeply. I'm quite glad it's going away. It's not gone, it will never be gone. People will always have some pause when dealing with The Other. But it's a lot better than it used to be.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,22:25    Quote heck, I see it in my own father, who had friends in the Japanese concentration camps in California during WWII. That's not buried in the past. The town I live in was one of the few towns in the Bay Area where Japanese Americans were allowed to settle after WW2 when they were released (minus their property, usually) from Manzanar and Topaz. So to this day there are a LOT of elderly Japanese Americans in this town. (What a nice healthy Japanese diet will do for you I guess.) There's a church up the hillside from me that's about 80% Japanese American, and there's about 20+ internment camp survivors who attend there. So it's still pretty real. Most of the Manzanar vets aren't bitter at all -- jolly grandparent types, mostly. However, when I was a kid a Japanese American friend of mind bragged how his father, who had grown up in Manzanar, was a foreman at Levi Strauss and loved to either not hire white people, or to harass his white subordinates, as some kind of belated payback for the camps. My friend thought this was very funny. (He turned into a very pushy Jehovah's Witness the next year and I quit hanging out with him.) He's the only such person I've heard of personally, tho. Oh yes, and then Michelle Malkin writes a book defending the internment camps and talking about how America should reconsider the fine old policy of locking people up on purely racial criteria. I'd like to see the worthless fucking bitch tell some of the 80-year-old grammas at that church 5 blocks away that they deserved to have the government put them into a camp and have all their property taken away. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,00:11    can we arm the grannies with chains and baseball bats first? Now that would be a pay-per-view event worth watching. for those from other places or times who don't know what we're referring to: http://www.factmonster.com/spot/internment1.html -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,19:25    Quote (stevestory @ June 21 2007,20:36) Quote (Ichthyic @ June 21 2007,21:24) it reminds me a LOT of the arguments a couple decades back about the issue of corporal punishment. at one time, corporal punishment was quite acceptable, even in schools. attitudes change... Growing up in the Deeeep South I've seen my own attitudes dramatically change. They used to be pretty conservative, including on things like spankings. After I was exposed to well-behaved kids, from intelligent families, who were reasoned with in disciplinary moments, and compared those to the kids I know who're now in prison in Florida (BTW prison in Florida is no joke, especially Raiford) who were disciplined via beatings, my opinions gave way to the evidence. My father used a belt on us.  I didn't get it much, mostly cause I disliked it enough to stay out of trouble (or at least not get caught).  My brother, not so much. His (my father's) parents used a closed fist on him, so in a way I s'pose that's progress. I spanked my daughter until she was about 2 or 3.  About the time my son was born, I quit.  He's never been spanked. Sometimes, I regret that choice.  Maybe Pop was on to something.  (jk of course) ;) -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

SpaghettiSawUs Posts: 77 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: June 23 2007,06:18    Quote (Lou FCD @ June 21 2007,14:22) Heh, funny.  I just popped in to bump this thread.  I had been thinking I'd be interested in hearing Spags' thoughts as a fellow ex-fundy type. You beat me to the punch.  Better Nate than lever, I s'pose. *bump anyway* Eh up ;) One point which I think bears pointing out is that alot of cults define themseves by being "different" to the world around them. This is basically a circular justification which goes something like: 1) Only God's true believers do X. 2) We do X. 3) We are god's true believers. Where X is defined in whatever way the cult chooses. For example, JWs define themselves through their door to door work. Firstly, though other "christians" may be involved in preaching in some sense, JWs are specific about the apostolic practice of going "house to house" or "to the houses" (acts 20:20 greek: "kata oikon"? IIRC). This therefore limits "true" christianity to only those religions which are truly following the apostolic example. So we're down to Mormons and JWs. It's easy to show that Mormonism is not true ("prophets were unto John", "add nothing to the book" etc). Therefore JWs are the only ones practicing true Xtianity. Ok, this way of defining the faith carries throughout: the blood issue, avoiding "worldly" pursuits, no Christmas or Birthdays etc. Thus for the JW child the experience of growing up is one of constantly reinforced separateness from their peers. The upshot is that for those that manage to escape when they get older, they tend to fly completely off the rails. This makes a self-fulfilling prophecy as they bcome "devoid of morals", from the perspective of the religion. Then there is the practice of shunning: any child growing up in a cult must face the prospect of being shunned by family and friends should they leave. Add implated phobias into the mix (the devil, armageddon, sexually transmitted diseases) and you have a recipe for some very unstable individuals who've literally had their mind and identity stolen. Is it child abuse? Is it anything else! Cheers Spags -------------- On June 23, 2007, 01:06 PM AFDave wrote: "How can we dismiss their theories without first reading their work?"

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 23 2007,12:26    Fundy baptists (my former flavor) are on much the same page. "Go ye into all the world.." "Come out from among them and be ye separate..." Right down to the 'we are the only true followers, everyone else is wrong because they aren't like us and we're right because we are' Shunning and fear and constant reinforcement are typical weapons to keep the sheep in line... etc. Quote Is it child abuse? Is it anything else! Exactly my view at this time. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2007,10:05    I'm bumping this thread in light of recent commentary by Ftk in the Unreasonable Kansans thread. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: June 24 2009,17:33    And I'm bumping it too, for exactly the same reasons, even though it's been a while since FTK was last seen. It's just that I didn't know of this topic before the whole "Article linked from Disco institute" circle-of-life style tard exploration. It is a fascinating subject, and maybe some newer input can be added... My contribution right now will be in regard to physical punishment. We are having quite some problems here in france with that subject. When I was a kid, my father would use a "martinet", which is a kind of cat-of-nine-tails without the hooks, on my brother and myself. It did hurt, but it also very efficiently kept us out of trouble. Another thing at this time was that our teachers were allowed some amount of physical punishment (nothing over the top, but usualy a bit hurting and/or humiliating). Right now, in France, the situation is so that any single physical contact from a teacher to a pupil can lead to court, fines, even imprisonement. The direct result is a total lack of respect for the teaching body, especialy from youngsters (10-16). A few days ago, a teacher was slapped in the face by a 11 years old kid. The only recourse she had? Signal the kid to the cops, with all the troubles that will ensue. Over-protecting our kids is, IMO, not always a good thing. When parents fail to do the basic homework of educating their kids and the teaching body is not allowed to correct the mistakes, we end up with a dangerous generation indeed. So, in regard to the topic at hand, physical punishment is perceived as child abuse, so why shouldn't mental indoctrination be seen as such? Of course, by physical punishement I do mean a good spanking when deserved. My father's martinet WAS over the top, but so is he... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: June 25 2009,02:18    Sorry, that was drunk-posting. I now see that there's no point to my post. Like...none at all. My bad (headache). -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Amadan Posts: 1337 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: June 25 2009,06:57    Here in Ireland we’re likely to spend the next few years coming to terms with the Ryan report on abuse of children by Catholic clerical orders. It makes for appalling reading. But what shocks me most is that these weren’t isolated Bad Apples. The abuse was a product of (in fact, integral to) a system, and the system was willingly accepted not just by the state and RC establishment, but also by the people who voted for the politicians and who went to church every Sunday. We became Catholic Ireland because our national identity was Not-British, and Catholicism was Not-British. Any radical idealism there was in the independence movement was strangled in the messy compromise that we ended up with in 1921. The only group with the resources to provide health and education was the RCC, so the solidly middle-class types who took over government were delighted to hand them over. (Proper deference was of course shown to those who could afford private schools and private medicine.) The Poor (always capitalised – you inherit it like your surname) would always be with us, and the Brothers and the nuns would look after them. There was a constant undercurrent of suspicion that it could be very bad for the kids who were imprisoned for being Poor. But to doubt the system was to question the Church, and the Church was at the very centre of what it meant to be Irish. So we rationalised the doubts away: it’s the best we can afford; they’re the Hard Cases and you can’t use kid gloves on them; a few belts didn’t do me any harm; the people in charge know best; the only alternative is Communism; the papers would be full of it if things were that bad. In short, classic accommodation of authoritarianism. I’d like to know how clerics and the religious orders rationalised it. Holy Catlick Oireland, Jansenism, ultramontanism and anti-modernism surely feature strongly, but I really don’t know. Anyway, the point of this rant is to point out that certainties, particularly the smug ones, are authoritarianism’s best protection. And not just religious certainty: I get the same feeling reading the lynch mobs at Pharyngula sometimes. Dictatorships are always popular at the beginning, and the easiest way to replace one you're tired of is to install a new one. Given the choice, trust the guy who admits he might be wrong. -------------- "People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011 JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 25 2009,08:01    Quote Given the choice, trust the guy who admits he might be wrong Well said - it works for me. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Richard Simons Posts: 425 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 25 2009,08:41    Quote And not just religious certainty: I get the same feeling reading the lynch mobs at Pharyngula sometimes. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that way. It seems that any attempt to understand the other person's point of view is seen by many there as a major weakness that requires you to be stomped on before you get a chance to spread your evil support for authoritarianism. Edit to change formatting error -------------- All sweeping statements are wrong.

sledgehammer Posts: 533 Joined: Sep. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: June 25 2009,14:42    Here's a religion/child abuse situation that really frosts me: faith healing.  Here in Oregon, we've recently had several kids die of pneumonia and other easily treatable diseases simply because their parents refused them medical treatment, opting instead for prayer, exclusively. One particular cult of fundies, "Followers of Christ Church", has been responsible for at least 70 childrens' deaths since the '50s, and not a single parent was ever prosecuted, because until recently, Oregon has had a provision (pushed through by fundie legislators) that exempts religious faith healing from manslaughter prosecution. This provision has recently been removed from the statutes, mostly as a direct result of the practices of this cult, in spite of the vigorous protests of the Christian Science Church     Quote Oregonian The bill eliminates the shield laws from all Oregon's statutes, including murder by abuse, first- and second-degree manslaughter, criminal mistreatment and criminal nonsupport. Only six states, including Oregon, allow such sweeping immunity for faith-healing parents whose children die without treatment, although more than 40 states include some kind of religious shields in their criminal, civil and juvenile codes. Not only are Oregon's laws some of the weakest in protecting children of faith healers, but legislative records over the years show that lawmakers wrote the laws to suit the Christian Science Church. Christian Scientists, the nation's largest religious group favoring spiritual healing methods, has been the chief defender of such religious shields nationwide. Oregon church members pushed through changes in 1995 and 1997 that strengthened parents' rights to use prayers in lieu of medical care, ironically as prosecutors were seeking stiffer sentences for child killers. The church's Oregon lobbyist, Bruce Fitzwater, said he will pay close attention to the debate, but said he couldn't comment Thursday because he hadn't yet seen the bill.  The first manslaughter trial under the new statute is currently underway: Faith Healing Manslaughter trial in Oregon -------------- The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD) If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

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