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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > AFDave Wants You to Prove Evolution to Him

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BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:02    Stagefright. He's logged on a few times I've noticed. The cat is out of the bag now. He's frustrated that the portuguese thing went south when he thought it was north. Is thaty the tubes? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Occam's Aftershave Posts: 5287 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:07    Quote I bet Dave isn't showing this site to his wife and kids anymore. I find this curious - I just looked at AFDave's blog airdave.blogspot.com and he has removed his AFDave's Creator God Hypothesis entry along with all the associated critical comments.  That's one way to hide the embarrassment I guess.  Do we have another Dave Springer-Spaniel the mad deleter on our hands? -------------- "CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way" "All the evidence supports Creation baraminology" "If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic." "Jews and Christians are Muslims." - Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:08    The wind does seem to have gone out of his sails a bit. But GoP's really in a slump. Everytime he shows up we ask him for some geocentrism or scale-free networks, maybe that has something to do with it. A reminder of his failures. edit: some of his failures. he's promised many things he's failed to deliver.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:14    having tried to follow this from the beginning, of the discussion, I've come to the conclusion that this is the same circular reasoning on both sides.  Is anybody out there really interested in the development and diversity of life or is it just more fun to try to prove each other wrong?

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:16    Dave looks down on us from 30000 feet in his jet-trainer and says... "I welcome your comments, but get ready to be challenged! " ROFLMAO! the only challenge is in keeping your own sanity while you observe the total lack of his own.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:20    Quote I've come to the conclusion that this is the same circular reasoning on both sides. I can tell just from the tone of your post I'm going to regret bothering to ask, but... could you point out exactly where you see circular reasoning on BOTH sides? or are you just farting your 2 cents? here, let me help you: what you see on DAVE'S side is not only circular argument and reasoning, but rampant ignorance, and hardcore projection and denial. what you see on our side that you misinterpret as circular, is the fact that we have to repeat ourselves a dozen times or more before Dave can apparently parse even a few words of what we are trying to show him. see?  not circular, just patient. You don't need to go farther than the first few pages on any of Dave's threads to see the answers to his drivel are already there. The rest is us just excercising our wit, or our skulls by banging them on ridiculous pyschological walls Dave has built around himself.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:25    The arguements pro and con for evolution are well known and many have been around for over a hundred years.  On the other side ID offers no alterative.  ID says God did it!  Yeah, so how does that help me in the lab, the classroom, in life?  It doesn't its just a feelgood.  On the other hand, there are some serious questions in biochemistry and molecular biology that need to be addressed and not avoid just so we present a unified front to the ID crowd.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:28    so stop preaching and start asking. what are your questions? oh, and i suggest you start a new topic to address them. as you may have noticed, this thread has become a bit long in the tooth.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:30    Quote Dave's Personal Testimony Dave grew up in a Christian home, the youngest son of a Bible Translator for a native tribe in northern Brazil. He was saved at an early age and memorized hundreds of Bible verses as a kid thanks to the Bible Memory Association which included memory booklets, a reward system and camps. Dave received an Electrical Engineering degree in 1986 and became an Air Force pilot the same year. During his Air Force years, he wrote thought-provoking Christian articles and flyers for distribution to co-workers. In 1996, Dave left the Air Force to go into business in the Kansas City area. In 2003, Dave sold his telecommunications business where he served as President/COO/CFO to a public company based in Leawood, Kansas. Dave is married to the former [ name removed by me ] of Dallas, Texas and has five children - [names removed by me] Dave's four oldest children have been participants in the AWANA Bible Memory Program and have also attended Kids 4 Truth Clubs since inception. Dave has a unique vantage point with kids in BOTH programs at the same time. Dave's primary interest in Kids 4 Truth is in the power of the web for its ability to deliver THE TRUTH in a dynamic multi-media format. Dave currently serves his church, Tri-City Ministries, as a deacon, 3rd grade boys Sunday School teacher, baseball coach, Urban LIFE pianist, and volunteer pilot. emphasis mine. Human face on a strange man. I wonder what his AF buddies thought of his writing? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:31    Circular in the sense that ID trys to disprove evolution to no avail, and evolutionists try to disprove ID for no purpose, there is no threat and it justs wastes time that could be applied to real work.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:33    I wonder what his AF buddies thought of the obvious cult he had been indoctrinated into as a kid??? did I ever tell you how much i HATE missionaries? single most destructive occupation on the face of the earth. aside: Quote there is no threat and it justs wastes time that could be applied to real work. multiple things wrong with that statment. 1.  If we are here, we have time to waste.  All my work is done at the moment.  anybody else taking off time from research or work to post here?  no?  didn't think so. 2.  Standard response:  what we do here helps lurkers who haven't seen the various positions argued ad nauseum, and we often post useful information, not just for lurkers, but for each other as well.  I learn new stuff here almost every day, and I AM a scientist.  there's quite a diverse group with a lot of expertise that you just won't find on very many forums. so... did you actually have questions?

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:37    Did you ever read "The Poisonwood Bible" by Barbara Kingsolver? Utterly amazing book but it does leave you a bit sick. Highly recommend it though. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:39    i'll add it to the list, if you tell me it has a happy ending

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:41    Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a happy ending. Yeah I suppose so. Have you ever read anything by her? She is maybe in the top 10 american authors. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,19:59    I've forgotten 10 times the number of books i remember.   you know you gotta read too much shit in this profession anyway.  I have an entire garage full of periodical reprints alone!  I've finally managed to donate the other garage full of texts and books i was toting about for decades. so, to answer your question, probably, but I'm sure I've all but forgotten which ones and when. Heck, these days it's great if I can remember most of a book i just read last week.  Most of the info. just gets absorbed into the "gestalt" along with the rest.  specific memory was always a weak spot with me.  Ask me how a theory works and how and when it is best applied? no problem.  ask me who was the originator of the theory? thank god for google. In case your wondering, I studied a bit of anthropology (and California history) as an undergrad, and most of my opinions of missionaries came from direct observations of their impact on culture and environment.  Not pretty. I have a totally different view of missions when i visit them than most folks do.

Occam's Aftershave Posts: 5287 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,20:04    Quote I wonder what his AF buddies thought of the obvious cult he had been indoctrinated into as a kid??? From my first hand experiences with military pilots (who all tend to be intelligent self-assured free-thinkers) A few probably politely listened to him. A few more probably just ignored him. Most probably told him in no uncertain terms to take a flying f*ck at a rolling donut. How about it AFDave - is that breakdown basically accurate? When you started preaching to them about their sins, how many of your fellow aviators told you to f*ck off? -------------- "CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way" "All the evidence supports Creation baraminology" "If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic." "Jews and Christians are Muslims." - Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,20:08    i picture many juvenile practical jokes being pulled on our davey... got a few ideas of what they might have been, OA?

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,20:09    Poisonwood bible is about a missionary's family in africa. Fiction. Quite sickening but incredible. Yeah I know, I read too much. Way too much. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,20:15    told from whose perspective?  the missionaries or their victims, er, i mean "students"...? It starts to sound familiar... did they make a flick out of that story about 10 years ago? Edit: nvmn, i went and looked it up.  it does sound like a great tale. kind of a more modern "Lord Jim" and no, looking at the list, i can't recall ever having read any of her books before.

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,20:27    Quote (skeptic @ May 23 2006,00:14) having tried to follow this from the beginning, of the discussion, I've come to the conclusion that this is the same circular reasoning on both sides.  Is anybody out there really interested in the development and diversity of life or is it just more fun to try to prove each other wrong? At this point it's more fun just to prove Dave, once again, wrong. The problem, Mr. Skeptic, is that Dave has shown himself to be incapable of evaluating evidence. So far, he has proffered none of his own, and even when he's been presented essentially unassailable proof of an assertion (e.g. that the broken GULO gene in humans and chimps is conclusive evidence of common ancestry), he either ignores it or seemingly deliberately misconstrues it. If you want a flavor of how delusional Mr. Air Force is, read some of the posts regarding his French + Spanish = Protuguese assertion. At this point, it's way more fun to poke fun at Dave than it is to try to engage him in rational debate. -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,20:54    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 22 2006,05:55) Quote (Faid @ May 22 2006,10:42) And certainly not responsible for the creation of the language from Spanish... Correct. Spanish and Portuguese apparently started to diverge noticeably around the 12th century. The Portuguese didn't colonize Brazil til around 600 years after that, I think, by which time Portuguese was definitely a well defined language. It's also a big mistake to think of Portuguese just diverging from Spanish and Spanish staying the same all that time. The whole time Portuguese was becoming Portuguese, Spanish was also undergoing its own important changes as well. From what I gather, Portuguese is actually MORE conservative than Spanish in terms of grammar and morphology. To say that Portuguese is descended from Spanish is exactly the same as saying humans are descended from chimpanzees. In fact, Portuguese and Spanish are both descended from Proto-Iberian Romance, which was not the same as any language spoken now. All the lurkers (well, me, at least) are laughing. Dave's ability to call black white over the language issue highlights his complete lack of credibility. The analogies between language spread and development as memic, as a metaphor for evolutionary processes, as hinted at here, could be developed, thus combining the issues of language and evolution, reducing the amount of verbiage required to address? (refute, demolish, bury?) AFDave's assertions. Personally, I think the point that he has nothing of value to offer has been made, not least by his own posts, and I don't see any need to waste more time on him.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,21:03    hey, don't look at me.  I gave up on his ability to even understand an evidentiary argument after his very first post. At this point, I'm more interested in seeing if there is anything practical that would result from disecting his brain.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,21:06    I'm trying right now. Ive put all his posts from one thread into one text file and I am posting them on a new post. Takes a bit though. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,21:27    Done, I lost the formatting though. I shoulda seen it coming but I guess I was busy. I must say, I was surprised. His other threads he get's more upset toward the end but his logic is absolutely consistent. It isn't the same when I read it that way. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,21:53    Quote (skeptic @ May 23 2006,00:31) Circular in the sense that ID trys to disprove evolution to no avail, and evolutionists try to disprove ID for no purpose, there is no threat and it justs wastes time that could be applied to real work. We dont try and disprove ID, mostly we just point out where its supporters are wrong, since we cannot conclusively prove that there is no intelligent designer. As for the threat, it is a threat to proper science education, since it is part of an anti-science mindset, and as such threatens a great deal of work and life in the USA.  Sure, if nobody though evolution was correct, a lot of science would still get done, but as the unifying principle behind much of biology, people would be unable to see the big picture.

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 22 2006,22:37    BWE which thread did d/2 delete and is it on your conglomerated thread? I wouldn't mind finding out what crack in his reality wall let in the cold light of day. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 23 2006,01:26    Dave, here's yet another nifty link- and from this site, not some stinkin' Wiki page: http://libro.uca.edu/payne1/spainport1.htm Quote Particularism in the Portugalense was reinforced by the mountain barriers and watershed--the region of Tras-os-Montes--that separated it from Leon to the northeast. Save for the Douro, none of the rivers that flowed through the Portugalense originated east of the mountains. There was distinct geographic separation and orientation toward the southwest and the Atlantic. Greater geographic and cultural continuity existed toward the north, for it appears that in addition to the climatic and agrarian similarities, a separate western dialect of vernacular Latin had been spoken in that part of the peninsula since late Roman times. This formed the basis for the modern language of Galician-Portuguese. Quote Linguistically unified, the Portuguese people were socially and culturally more homogeneous than the population of Castile and Aragon. The small kingdom contained no ethnic subgroup of any importance save for a very slight Jewish population, and by the [121] middle of the thirteenth century had become the first nation-state in Europe. (All bolds mine) Interesting stuff, eh Dave? I've got to thank you, however. Once again, you provide us with interesting knowledge (in linguistics and history, this time) and fruitful research... simply by taking a stand on the opposite side. Good job! -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 23 2006,01:44    Quote there is no threat [from ID] and [confronting IDists] justs wastes time that could be applied to real work. From my vantage point in Ohio, I am going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.  The Fundies, under the guidance of the infamous Discovery Institute, made a concerted assault on science education in Ohio, starting around 2002. Only a few months ago, after the persistent, laborious, time-consuming, leg-work of a lot of scientists and concerned citizens, did the State Board of Education reverse its endorsement of the stealth ID beach-head that had been established in the biology curriculum. No threat? To whom? Where do you live, Mr. Skeptic? Do you have - or plan to have - kids? If I had the web savvy of stevestory, I would insert at this point an image from the South Park episode where the town decides that the only way to protect itself from Fundie Wrath* is to import 18 trucks full of sand and have each resident bury his neighbor's head in it. *(Islamic, in this case, but same idea). Now, sure, D/2 bashing may seem a bit like swatting a fly with a sledge-hammer. But it's been my experience that, if you don't engage these guys, or at least follow their "logic", you're literally too stunned when you hear it for the first time at the school board meeting to make a coherent reply. Well, heck, why don't I just refer you to the Why Do We Do This thread on Panda's Thumb? -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 23 2006,02:00    A side question to the side question, for anyone out there knowledgeable about European linguistic history. While trying to scratch out whether there's anything to D/2's assertion that "thousands of Burgundian knights" migrated to Portugal to help wrest the country from the Castillians, I get the impression that, at the time, Burgundy was more German than French, and that their language was the germanic Franconian, more akin to modern Dutch than to modern French. But, I hasten to add, I'm no expert, and I'm asking a question, not making a claim. (Probably not a bad attitude to take when venturing into an area in which one is completely unschooled, don't you think?) -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

Renier Posts: 276 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 23 2006,03:23    Russel, you might have a point there. I am sure my memory fails me, but I recall that when the Holy Roman Empire (Charlemagne - Under Frankish rule) was split between the 2 sons, that it was German that was spoken. I think it was after that time that the Western half came under greater influence from the Gealic tongues of the natives. There is mention somewhere that when the rulers of the 2 sides got together a couple of years after (some generations) that they could not understand each other any more. Anyway, it's all a bit fuzzy, and I don't have dates. I think I'll go and theck up a bit. Maybe Jordane mentions something about it.

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