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Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 04 2007,21:38   

uh yeah, it's just stock driven economy, or what you said.

;)

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 04 2007,22:09   

Having dealt with the most ridiculous elements in govt' for quite some time, my opinion is still worth very little but here goes anyway:

Any system you want to implement won't work. The forces against it will have something to fight and the underdog evokes sympathy. The best we can hope for is a clusterfuck where no one has enough real power to make any good targets.

Money and power do weird things to people. I've had public officials who are national figures, do interviews on network news, etc. look me straight in the eye and say, "I don't know what the hell you are talking about." when I was answering a question that they absolutely positively need to know the answer so they can make political decisions and make things happen. After I explained, they, dead serious I should add, say things like "Can't we just release these reports in the opposite order? That would make it easier to sell." when doing so actually reverses the meaning of data. This is not isolated and it's not "them" as opposed to "us". It's agendas as opposed to intelligence.

I am potentially damaged by the level of jadedness I've aquired. I do give a damn sometimes but I hold out 0 (that's zero) hope that anything can change. The only way to do it is with a smart and hip dictator and we all know where that ends up. I have watched money players bribe people to prove to me that they can and do. There is no hope without utterly destroying our entire system of living. And that doesn't seem very hopeful to me.

But I do enjoy writing songs.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,00:17   

Quote (Kristine @ May 04 2007,21:09)
But I must ask, Lenny, do you even think that our system is capitalist anymore?

No.  Indeed, the corporations themselves are building the basic framework of socialism, and they are being forced into it by their own economic interests.

There are some economists who have declared that the rise of employee-stock-ownership plans and IRA's and 401(k)'s and such, have "democratized" the economy, leading to "ownership" of the corporations by a larger and larger number of stockholders.  That, alas, is bullshit.  It is, of course, the stockholders who "own" the corporations, but stock ownership in the US is still heavily centralized -- despite all the crap you might hear about "union pension plans" or "employee stock ownership plans" and "IRA plans" counting for the majority of stock, it is a simple fact that stock ownership, as with all wealth, is (and always has been) heavily concentrated in a very few hands.  In 2001, the wealthiest 1% of the US households owned 33.4% of all wealth, while the bottom 80% of househoulds owned just 15.5% of wealth.  The wealthiest 1% of households also owned 44.1% of all stocks, bonds and mutual funds (the bottom 90% owned just 15.5%). Of all stockholders, the wealthiest 1% held 94.8% of all stock holdings with value of $5,000 or more.

To explain where this all leads, I will quote-mine from myself:

Stock ownership is, in a corporate economy, particularly important, since it translates directly into corporate power.  And what the corporation or joint stock company has done is centralize ownership, control and financial benefit, into a very small number of hands.  Rather than "democratizing" the economy, the joint stock company only centralizes it further.

And as a side effect, the joint stock company has in effect removed the controlling capitalists from the sphere of production. The actual day-to-day management of the corporation is left to a team of hired executives, managers and directors, who are responsible solely to "the stockholders" -- i.e., the wealthiest 1% of the population that controls nearly all the corporate stock.

This hired managerial apparatus is not in itself capitalist--that is, it does not extract any surplus value by virtue of owning capital. It is true that, in many corporations, the major shareholders are themselves members of the managerial apparatus, but this is peripheral to their role as capitalists. To the extent that the managers or executive officers of a corporation are not in themselves the major shareholder, they cannot be viewed as capitalists in the strict sense of the term (although they are certainly capitalist in their outlooks and value systems). They are merely "hired guns" who manage the capitalist's interests for him in exchange for part of the spoils.

The popular distinction between "labor" and "capital" as being "those who work" as opposed to "those who don't" here reaches its clearest form. The corporate capitalist, besides performing no labor in the process of production, now is not required to take part in directing or managing it either. As he does with the laborer, he merely buys the ability of somebody else to do this for him. In essence, the corporate capitalist simply sits back and lets other people produce his living for him. His living comes, not from his "management skills", nor from his "entrepreneurship", nor from his "superior business acumen"--it comes solely from the fact that he, and he alone, owns capital. Corporate owners are not at all necessary for the process of production and are, in essence, social parasites. They do not labor to produce anything, they do not manage their own enterprises; instead, they hire others to do all of this for them. In short, they do nothing to earn their keep, and live solely by hiring others to make their living for them.

Although the corporate sector of the economy is owned jointly by the capital-owning class (the small number of stockholders), it cannot be said that any corporation is "owned" by any individual (unless, of course, the corporation is itself a family-owned business). In essence, the capitalist system itself has done away with private property ownership and has introduced social property in its place.

In the heydey of the capitalist system, economic decisions were the perogative of a single owner, who made his decisions individually and in his own short-term interests. Today, however, this capitalist ideal no longer applies. In the modern corporation, the search for long-term stability and profitability forces the corporations to make long-term plans for the investment and use of their capital and resources. These decisions are no longer made by individual property-owners; they are made by a network of hired managers and professionals. In essence, private short term investment has given way to joint long-term planning for the optimum utilization of resources.

Another crucial factor which resulted from the joint stock company is the separation (both legally and in practice) of ownership from management. In the early days of capitalism, the capital-owner had to serve as his own entrepreneur and manager. He could profit from his investment only if he himself made the decisions upon which profitability was based. This allowed the capitalist to justify his appropriation of surplus value as "compensation" for his decision-making entrepreneural role.

Today, however, the socialized capital-owning class has no such connection to business decision-making. Instead, the capitalist stockholders are able to hire the services of a network of professional managers, decision-makers and innovators who perform this role for them Those who own a majority of stock in a corporation have no need of business sense or entrepreneural ability; they can merely hire others who have these abilities. The stockholder-capitalist makes his living without lifting a finger. He performs no labor, produces no commodity, and develops no new innovation. The only thing he does is allow the managers to use his capital and then cash the dividend checks they send to him. Even if one accepts the argument that the capitalist as decision-maker receives his profits as compensation for his decision-making ability, one can certainly not make this argument when the capital-owner makes no decisions at all, but merely hires others to do this for him.

Thus, capitalist practice itself demonstrates that the capital-owner, the stockholder, is superfluous and parasitical. If the managers perform their tasks on behalf of the absentee stockholders, they can perform them just as well if those stockholders are deposed and replaced by elected representatives from the workplace and the surrounding community. There is no reason why the managers cannot be made responsible to the social entity as a whole rather than to the minority of stock-owner members.

Developing methods of capitalist management are beginning to acknowledge this fact. In the days of individual capitalism, economic enterprises were essentially top-down affairs, mere extensions of the capital of a single capitalist who ran the enterprise in essentially dictatorial fashion--Carnegie Steel, Ford Motor Company, the Gould railway empire.

As corporations moved towards social ownership and control by professional managers, however, they turned from a vertical system of organization to a horizontal association of diverse economic enterprises. This process accelerated with the onset of the overproduction crisis, which forced corporations to diversify in order to survive.

The old "dictatorial" method of management works fine for a vertical organization which only had to monitor a small number of routine tasks, but top-down management fails miserably when faced with the task of integrating and coordinating a large number of diverse units.

As a result, modern managers have been forced to adopt methods which are more horizontal and "democratic", through the use of such concepts as project teams, work councils, ad hoc committees, and autonomous project teams. And, since this diverse economic process is too large and too involved to be overseen by a small number of hired managers, it has become necessary to integrate the workers in the shop more fully into this coordination process. This management concept was pioneered by the Japanese, and has since been adopted by US corporations, which have referred to them as "job enhancement" or "industrial democracy".

The long-term effects on the capitalist mode of production will be profound. These new management styles weaken the very core of the capitalist's raison d'etre. If management and workers can make economic decisions without the input of the owners, it is obvious that the owners are not needed and can be dispensed with. Furthermore, the increasing integration of workers into this management process will make the workers able to carry out these management tasks by themselves, thus making the professional management sector equally unnecessary. The capitalist program of "industrial democracy" is the beginning of a new social and economic structure which will eventually bring full control of the economy to the workers who run it. These infant "workers councils" represent the future society of worker control; they represent the beginnings of socialism. All that remains is to kick out the absentee stockholder-owners and their hired representatives, and turn "industrial democracy" into *actual* democracy, run by elected representatives from the surrounding social entity.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,04:38   

I thought there had been movements towards this sort of thing back in the early 20th century.  Indeed, after WW2, at least in Europe, the unions power was enough to be able to bargain directly with the owners.  Except that now, at least in the UK, with the unions crippled by legislation and economic changes that have destroyed their usual workplaces, there is no-one to perform tha function.
And, there is still too much external pressure to force the business's into profit maximisation than to allow much in the way of workplace democracy.  I am aware of various places actually empowering staff, I first read about it years ago.  But as for how widespread the actual uptake of it is, is another matter.  Moreover, here in the UK, there are many moves towards further alienation.  These include casualisation, short term contracts, threats of leaving, and maintenance if not extension of hierarchies.  

Maybe if you mention some of the countervailing problems as well, such as the management moving into the upper owners class through accumulation of wealth (Or plundering of the company if you like) and the proliferation of low paid service work.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,10:20   

Quote (guthrie @ May 05 2007,04:38)
 I am aware of various places actually empowering staff, I first read about it years ago.  But as for how widespread the actual uptake of it is, is another matter.

Well, of course, the corporados are absolutely determined that none of these moves towards "industrial democracy" give any REAL decision-making power or control to worker representatives -- all the corporados want are puppets.  They absolutely will not give up their economic power voluntarily.

And of course you are entirely correct that unions themselves (particularly here in the US) have been crushed (legally and otherwise) virtually out of existence.

However, the class struggle never ends, and every time the owners think they have successfully tamed the working class, it always roars back to life.  So, as the corporados are inexorably forced, by their own economic imperatives, into making economic production more and more social in character, the working class is just as inexorably forced, by its separate economic imperatives, to assume more and more control of that social process.

And at the same time, circumstances force the DISTRIBUTION of economic products to also become more and more social in character.

Another quote mine from myself:


As economic capacity and productivity continue to grow under monopoly capitalism, moreover, profound changes are introduced into capitalist social relationships. Of increasing importance is the social structure which determines exchange value, the marketplace, which is crucial to the bourgeois mode of production.

In early capitalism, when the productive ability of society is relatively low, the general level of social production is insufficient to produce all of the various commodities which are necessary and desirable. This leads to a scarcity of commodities, and the task of the capitalist marketplace, as bourgeois ideology sees it, is to "allocate" these resources, to decide through the "impersonal marketplace" who will receive the scarce commodities and who will not. The capitalist marketplace bases this on the control of wealth--those with more wealth get more commodities. This is a convenient exchange system for a ruling class that controls most of society's wealth, and obtains it by siphoning it from the working class.

As productive abilities continue to expand under monopoly capitalism, however, the problem of "scarcity" becomes less and less acute. As commodities become overproduced, the capitalist exchange relationship becomes less suited to the social distribution of the necessities of life. When the supply of a commodity is scarce, potential consumers must compete with each other to get it, and the criterion for this competition is how much exchange value one is willing and able to part with.

If there is an abundant supply of the commodity available, however, the need for exchange-value competition disappears. Social circumstances now demand a system of distribution based on the allocation of resources according to use-value. Instead of determining whether this or that party to the social relationship will obtain the limited supply of commodities, the new system of distribution must determine the most efficient manner to distribute abundant supplies between both parties.

Thus, the affluence of the monopoly capitalist's high level of productivity undercuts the very basis for the capitalist's domination of social relationships, and forces profound changes in the mode of production. It demands, in essence, the production and distribution of use-values, not exchange-values.

The capitalist mode of production, which is by its very nature constructed around the private production of exchange-values (and the consequent appropriation of surplus value) is unable to adapt itself to the changes demanded by these circumstances. The result is an insoluble conflict--if humans are to continue to extract their means of life from existing circumstances through labor, the methods by which this process is carried out (i.e., the existing mode of production) must be altered drastically; yet capitalism is unable to adapt itself to these circumstances.

n fighting to save themselves from this fate, the monopoly capitalists daily prove that they are no longer suited for providing the necessaries of life to the members of human society. The development and utilization of human productive capacity which is demanded by current circumstances is instead hampered and distorted by the narrow class interests of the bourgeoisie, who are forced to periodically cut back on the utilization of human productive forces in order to avoid producing more commodities than they can sell profitably.

The capitalist is not at all concerned with the production of use-values; he cares only about exchange-values, and is thus forced to lower the utilization of productive abilities which could otherwise be used to raise the standard of living for all members of human society. Instead of a self-managed super-abundant system which uses human labor power for everyone's benefit, monopoly capitalism produces a system in which human labor power is deliberately *underutilized* to protect the privileged position of the ruling class; a system which, instead of producing enough to feed hungry people, uses "price supports" to pay farmers *not* to grow food and thus protect profit levels.

Increasingly, economic problems turn from determing how to divide scarce commodities amongst those who can afford to buy them, to how best to distribute abundant commodities to those who CANNOT pay for them.  In other words, just as the production process begins more and more to be socially controlled, with socially-determined goals, so does the process of distribution.

That is the basis for a socialist economy.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,10:52   

Quote (guthrie @ May 05 2007,04:38)
I thought there had been movements towards this sort of thing back in the early 20th century.

Yes.  Those were the "council communists", and they were prominent in Europe at the time.  Indeed, the council-communists were the originators of the original 1917 revolution in Russia -- the Russian word "soviet" means "council".

The Leninists (who can best be viewed as state-capitalists) didn't want worker control any more than the corporados do, so the first thing the Leninists did upon taking over later that year was to destroy the soviets, transfer power to the Party bureaucracy, and shoot all the council-communists they could find.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,16:06   

And then do their best to maintain the myth that the proletariat require to be led/ inoculated with revolution.  

OK, got any good books on that period?  I have "Ten days that shook the world" around somewhere, but cannot remember any of it.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,16:10   

Quote (phonon @ May 03 2007,19:07)
I started this thread just to have a place to answer questions about "politics" that come up in other threads. The name of the thread is intentionally ridiculous.

I don't know what's going on with the board. When I try to use a link, the preview pane puts it in html instead of the message board code. That's also why the thread title is messed up.

Let me know what you want the title to be, and I'll change it.

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,16:12   

So in one sense, a welfare state is also a means of distributing goods amongst those who cannot afford them.  Which is undoubtedly related to their growth.  But also the increasing gvt expenditure seems to me to be partly a compensatory mechanism to keep people employed.  (as well as a means of empire building by bureacrats and others)

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,16:51   

Quote (guthrie @ May 05 2007,16:12)
So in one sense, a welfare state is also a means of distributing goods amongst those who cannot afford them.  Which is undoubtedly related to their growth.  But also the increasing gvt expenditure seems to me to be partly a compensatory mechanism to keep people employed.  (as well as a means of empire building by bureacrats and others)

Both are a method of dealing with the capitalist overproduction problem (capitalists can PRODUCE far more things than they can profitably SELL).

One of the biggest boons to the corporados are heavy military budgets, since those put a lot of money into the economy, but don't put any useful commodities into the economy, thus helping to ease the overproduction problem.

Welfare-state programs are also a convenient way for corporados to gain docile workers without having to PAY for them, since every dollar that the government gives to someone is a dollar that an employer doesn't have to give them.  That, of course, is one reason why some major corporations, like GM and Wal-Mart, are now lobbying in favor of single-payer tax-funded national health care ("socialized medicine").  The reason for that is simple --- they know that universal health care coverage is now all but inevitable, and they don't want to get stuck PAYING for it.

Don't let the corporados fool you -- they're all in favor of the welfare state (and even socialism) when it benefits THEM.  What they DON'T like is welfare or socialism that does NOT benefit them.  And for god's sake, they REALLY don't like it if THEY have to pay for it.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,16:59   

Quote (guthrie @ May 05 2007,16:06)
OK, got any good books on that period?

I'm working on editing a collection of writings by the prominent council-communists Anton Pannekoek, Hermann Gorter, Sylvian Pankhurst and Otto Ruhle.  It'll probably be printed before the end of the year.  In the meantime, if you Google those names, you'll get some stuff to look at.  In addition, I humbly offer my own book-length writings on the subject (from which I have quote-minded here) at:

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/marxindex.html


Those too will all be available in printed versions before the end of the year.  (I've set up my own micropublishing company specifically to put non-Leninist Marxist books into print, since none of the "communist parties" will ever print anything like that, and they are the ones that print nearly all the commie books available in the US, except for a few academic presses.)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,17:10   

Quote (guthrie @ May 05 2007,16:06)
And then do their best to maintain the myth that the proletariat require to be led/ inoculated with revolution.  

Exactly.  

Yet another quote-mine from myself:

The philosophical basis of Leninism had been laid out in 1908 in Lenin's work "Materialism and Empirio-Criticism". In this work, the subtle distinctions of Marx's dialectical view of totality were lost. Rather than the Marxian interpenetration between mind and matter--"Thinking and being are certainly distinct, but are at the same time in unity with each other"--Lenin took the view that all outlooks and philosophies are either idealist or materialist, with nothing in between. Lenin dismisses as "litter and rubbish" any attempts to form a unity between these two philosophical frameworks: "The attempt to escape these two basic trends in philosophy is nothing but 'conciliatory quackery'."

Marxism, Lenin repeatedly asserted, was a materialist outlook--material (economic) factors were the sole determinant of human actions. In an argument which broke out among socialists over the outlooks of the physicist Ernst Mach, Lenin asserted that material reality is objectively independent of human thought, that the "real world" exists "out there" and operates without regard to the position or viewpoint of the observer. Human thoughts themselves, Lenin asserted, were material things, since they were the result of the motion of molecules and chemicals in the human brain.

Since material reality was independent of consciousness, Lenin concluded, there exists some "objective truth" which corresponds to existing material reality. The process of human knowledge, as the Leninists came to see it, is "reflective"; ideas are merely the mental reflections of an objective material reality, and those ideas that could be shown through practice to correspond to material reality were objectively "true".

It is easy to see how Lenin's political outlooks developed from this philosophical base. If the world operates independently of humans according to objective laws, then it is possible for humans to discover those laws, and thus come to a "scientific understanding" of the operation of human society. The Marxist-Leninist party, being trained in the methods of "dialectical materialism", could understand these laws and interpret them to those who were less "conscious". Therefore, the task of interpreting the laws of history for the working class fell to the trained cadre of Leninists who would rule in their name.

The debate over Lenin's "objective reality" was more than an abstract intellectual debate--it had profound practical implications. Lenin, by arguing that reality existed independently of human consciousness, was led to embrace the strategy of "injecting" a radical consciousness into the working class, in accordance with the "laws" of economic determinism and dialectical materialism.

This of course, would quickly lead to a situation such as existed in the Soviet Union. Since only the party is wise enough to know what issues are worthy of public attention, the press would have to submit to its "guidance"; since only party members can decide what best serves the interests of the working class, officials and bureaucrats would have to submit to "party discipline". Above all, since only the party can master the subtleties of dialectical materialism and thus know what is in the "real" interests of the working class, it alone should be given the power to make political and economic decisions.

Hence, a dictatorship "of" the proletariat turns into a dictatorship "on behalf of" the proletariat, and thence to a dictatorship OVER the proletariat.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,19:49   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 03 2007,20:15)
But for me, on the other hand, it is capital-ISM that is evil.  It's not the PERSON, it's the social/economic system that forces EVERYONE to act the same way. A business owner may be the sweetest person in the world; he may give money to the SPCA; he may help little old ladies cross the street -- but he MUST, absolutely MUST, treat his workers as "equipment" rather than as "people", if his business is to survive.  If Mother Theresa were to become a business owner, she would have no choice but to act in the very same way as the most heartless ruthless uncaring clod who ran a competing business -- because if she DIDN'T, she'd be broke and out of business in a very short time.  Capital-ISM, as a social/economic system, forces EVERYONE down to the lowest possible level, whether they want it or not.  To me, THAT is its greatest evil.

I know a guy that runs his own landscaping business. He hires illegals simply because he can't find any citizens to do the job. But, he pays these illegals at least $10/hr. He says he does that because he doesn't want to be a bitch and he wants his workers to be happy. I really don't know why he can't find citizens to do yardwork for $10/hr. Meanwhile a homeless guy is asking me for change.

Google, Inc. basically pampers its employees, who purportedly are more productive because of it.

So, it could be said that some employers realize the value of happy employees and their bottom line is actually improved by treating their workers like human beings.

 
Quote (Kristine @ May 04 2007,21:09)
My point is, it's all such an unholy incestuous contrived vampiric cluster-fuck that I'm not even sure it should be called capitalism anymore. It's looking rather Soviet (as opposed to Marxist) to me. The supposed laws of supply and demand seem rather quaint in comparison, and irrelevant.

Unfettered capitalism always tends toward monopoly (at least that's what I heard) so the incestuous vampiric clusterfudge is only natural. (if we had unfettered capitalism, which we do not.)
 
Quote (BWE @ May 04 2007,22:09)
Any system you want to implement won't work. The forces against it will have something to fight and the underdog evokes sympathy. The best we can hope for is a clusterfuck where no one has enough real power to make any good targets.

Money and power do weird things to people.

Yes, there is no magic system that will end corruption and greed. People will always find ways around any system so they can serve themselves.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,19:56   

Quote (stevestory @ May 05 2007,16:10)
 Let me know what you want the title to be, and I'll change it.

Well, I was going to ask you to change it so it doesn't have the bracketed "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank, but seeing how the thread is progressing so far...

Never Mind....

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,20:14   

I changed it. Let me know if it's still not fixed quite right.

   
Seizure Salad



Posts: 60
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,21:49   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 03 2007,19:03)
Quote (phonon @ May 03 2007,18:14)
I didn't realize there was a revolution looming. I did hear about a proposed <a href="e://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot" target="_blank">coup d'etat.</a>, so someone saved FDR's ass too.

Not looming, certainly, but definitely a possibility in the not-distant future.  The union movement (particularly the CIO) was then at the height of its power, and was taking on (and beating) some of the largest corporations in the world.  The Communist Party also had quite a large membership, particularly among educated people, and had extensive ties to the CIO and the rest of the labor movement.  It also had a quite large number of sympathizers who weren't actual members.  (Indeed, if you look carefully at the McCarthyite hysteria of the 50's, it focused almost exclusively on people who were Commie Party members in the **1930's**, not in the 1950's; and the reason is simple -- the CP was at the height of its influence then, and that scared the crap out of a lot of people.)

It should also be noted, though, that the FASCISTS also had a lot of sympathy in the US, particularly amongst the corporados (Henry Ford went so far as to write a book titled "The International Jew" that was happily reprinted by Hitler in Germany).  So if the Depression had continued for much longer, a fascist takeover was just as likely as a commie one.

Whether either the commies or the nazis could *actually* have taken over in the US at that time is not really the point --- the point is that a lot of people (including the corporados) THOUGHT that one or the other could.  Indeed, one of the major reasons why so many corporados in the US openly supported the fascist movement was because they viewed it as a counter to the potential for a Bolshevik-style revolution in the US.

Had the Great Depression continued for a few more years, that potential would have been, well, more than just a potential.

I suppose, though, it could be argued whether FDR actually saved the US by ending the Depression, or whether *Hitler* did it for us . . . .

Didn't fascism take over anyway? Wasn't that what The New Deal was timidly groping towards?

I don't mean fascism in the social sense--gas chambers, and Bergen-Belsen, and secret police, et cetera--but economically speaking. After all, the reason the US economy didn't sink back into the depression after WW2 was because it maintained the essentially fascist economic model the had been developed to sustain the war effort. I am speaking of military Keynesianism, government stimulation of the economy, etc., which is the way every industrialized nation eventually managed to save itself from the sinkhole of free market capitalism. Germany was just the first nation to stumble on it.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,22:52   

Quote (phonon @ May 05 2007,19:49)
I know a guy that runs his own landscaping business. He hires illegals simply because he can't find any citizens to do the job. But, he pays these illegals at least $10/hr. He says he does that because he doesn't want to be a bitch and he wants his workers to be happy. I really don't know why he can't find citizens to do yardwork for $10/hr. Meanwhile a homeless guy is asking me for change.

Google, Inc. basically pampers its employees, who purportedly are more productive because of it.

So, it could be said that some employers realize the value of happy employees and their bottom line is actually improved by treating their workers like human beings.

Well, just like biological evolution, surviving in easy times is . . . well . . . easy.  It's getting through the TOUGH times that really draw the line.


As for small businesses, they are basically nonentities.  In terms of their economic and political power, they are non-players.  Indeed, they only exist because the big boys haven't yet bothered to either buy them out or drive them under.

The ironic thing is that Adam Smith's entire outlook (and indeed that of every free-market fan, including the Libertarians) is based on an economy of small shopkeepers -- a society that simply no longer exists.  The natural trend of any market system is towards oligopoly and corporate monopoly.  The big boys don't play by "the market" --- indeed they do everything they can to AVOID "the market".  And unlike the little guys, the big boys have the economic, political and social power to do it.

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(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2007,23:01   

Quote (Seizure Salad @ May 05 2007,21:49)
I don't mean fascism in the social sense--gas chambers, and Bergen-Belsen, and secret police, et cetera--but economically speaking. After all, the reason the US economy didn't sink back into the depression after WW2 was because it maintained the essentially fascist economic model the had been developed to sustain the war effort. I am speaking of military Keynesianism, government stimulation of the economy, etc., which is the way every industrialized nation eventually managed to save itself from the sinkhole of free market capitalism. Germany was just the first nation to stumble on it.

Indeed, and then the Cold War quickly stepped in to fill the gap left by the collapse of Hitler and Tojo.

That's one reason why, after the Cold War ended, the "war on terror" has taken global proportions and now substitutes for the Cold War.  Not only does the huge bloated American military machine need a continuous reason to justify its existence (and its ever-growing budgets) for its own bureaucratic interests, but without that bloated military machine, the economy would collapse utterly.  Not to mention that the US has always found it convenient to have a fear-inspiring external enemy to focus everyone's attention upon  . . . .

Americans, though, must be awfully stupid to swallow the story that the same massive military machine that was needed to fight the nuclear-armed USSR, the only other "superpower" in the world, is now needed to, uh, fight terrorists with box-cutters . . . . . .

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Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2007,00:40   

Quote
Indeed, and then the Cold War quickly stepped in to fill the gap left by the collapse of Hitler and Tojo.


...and Eisenhower warned americans in his "farewell" address that this is exactly what would happen.

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(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2007,02:13   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 06 2007,00:40)
Quote
Indeed, and then the Cold War quickly stepped in to fill the gap left by the collapse of Hitler and Tojo.


...and Eisenhower warned americans in his "farewell" address that this is exactly what would happen.

And he was in a better position than most to really understand why.

Alas, no one listened to him.

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Seizure Salad



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(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2007,04:35   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 05 2007,23:01)
That's one reason why, after the Cold War ended, the "war on terror" has taken global proportions and now substitutes for the Cold War.  Not only does the huge bloated American military machine need a continuous reason to justify its existence (and its ever-growing budgets) for its own bureaucratic interests, but without that bloated military machine, the economy would collapse utterly.  Not to mention that the US has always found it convenient to have a fear-inspiring external enemy to focus everyone's attention upon  . . . .

Yeah. There's lot of hilarious leaked documents regarding the creation of a new enemy. Snippets of the 1994 Defence Planning Guide (authored by dear old Wolfowitz, of course) discuss how the government needs to think up new enemies to justify the permanent war economy and thus save "industrial policy".

But the "war on terror" really started under Reagan, in the early 80s. I suppose because they'd just screamed "the Russians are coming!" too many times and nobody cared anymore. Same people are in power now. Figures.

Imagine how much healthier the US would be if the government pursued social spending instead of military spending. I know it'll never happen, but it would stimulate the economy to roughly the same extent (lots of good studies on this). I suppose it would have a democratizing effect; people care about schools and stuff, and would want to get involved and help make decisions. But if you decide to build an F-22 Raptor instead, it really excludes people from having any kind of participation. That's great for the elites.

  
guthrie



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(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2007,06:22   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 05 2007,17:10)
Marxism, Lenin repeatedly asserted, was a materialist outlook--material (economic) factors were the sole determinant of human actions. In an argument which broke out among socialists over the outlooks of the physicist Ernst Mach, Lenin asserted that material reality is objectively independent of human thought, that the "real world" exists "out there" and operates without regard to the position or viewpoint of the observer. Human thoughts themselves, Lenin asserted, were material things, since they were the result of the motion of molecules and chemicals in the human brain.

Since material reality was independent of consciousness, Lenin concluded, there exists some "objective truth" which corresponds to existing material reality. The process of human knowledge, as the Leninists came to see it, is "reflective"; ideas are merely the mental reflections of an objective material reality, and those ideas that could be shown through practice to correspond to material reality were objectively "true".

It is easy to see how Lenin's political outlooks developed from this philosophical base. If the world operates independently of humans according to objective laws, then it is possible for humans to discover those laws, and thus come to a "scientific understanding" of the operation of human society. The Marxist-Leninist party, being trained in the methods of "dialectical materialism", could understand these laws and interpret them to those who were less "conscious". Therefore, the task of interpreting the laws of history for the working class fell to the trained cadre of Leninists who would rule in their name.

The debate over Lenin's "objective reality" was more than an abstract intellectual debate--it had profound practical implications. Lenin, by arguing that reality existed independently of human consciousness, was led to embrace the strategy of "injecting" a radical consciousness into the working class, in accordance with the "laws" of economic determinism and dialectical materialism.

This of course, would quickly lead to a situation such as existed in the Soviet Union. Since only the party is wise enough to know what issues are worthy of public attention, the press would have to submit to its "guidance"; since only party members can decide what best serves the interests of the working class, officials and bureaucrats would have to submit to "party discipline". Above all, since only the party can master the subtleties of dialectical materialism and thus know what is in the "real" interests of the working class, it alone should be given the power to make political and economic decisions.

Hence, a dictatorship "of" the proletariat turns into a dictatorship "on behalf of" the proletariat, and thence to a dictatorship OVER the proletariat.

From what little I've read so far, I don't recall Marx being quote so dogmatic about economic factors being the sole determinant of human behaviour.  WHich they are not.

So far it looks like he was right about molecules etc in thinking, but where he was wrong was our ability to comprehend and use the "objective truth" of reality outside of ourselves.  

Then of course it ignores that people outside the party can work things out too.  Why should the party be the sole repository of knowledge about how things work?  

Not to mention that politics etc is bound up with values etc, in a way which makes promulgating !"objective" truths rather hard.

  
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(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2007,13:21   

Quote (guthrie @ May 06 2007,06:22)
From what little I've read so far, I don't recall Marx being quote so dogmatic about economic factors being the sole determinant of human behaviour.  

He wasn't.

Nor was he all gung-ho about the Party and the centralized state.

All that crap came from Lenin.


I have no love for Leninists of any sort.  One of the sparks that helped set off the collapse of the Soviet Union was a coalminer's strike in the Ukraine.  At the time, I and the IWW branch of which I was a member sent what was for both of us a considerable amount of money to help the striking miners.  So not only did I have no love for the USSR, but in my own small way, I helped to bring it down.

That always baffles the rightwing nutters.

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phonon



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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2007,19:14   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 05 2007,10:20)
And of course you are entirely correct that unions themselves (particularly here in the US) have been crushed (legally and otherwise) virtually out of existence.

Hey now, there's one union that is making great strides. They work for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3mw49mk_x0

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 05 2007,22:52)
Well, just like biological evolution, surviving in easy times is . . . well . . . easy.  It's getting through the TOUGH times that really draw the line.

As for small businesses, they are basically nonentities.  In terms of their economic and political power, they are non-players.  Indeed, they only exist because the big boys haven't yet bothered to either buy them out or drive them under.

I don't think Google or Costco are small companies.

Also, what about service related "industries" like law where the "workers" are paid handsomely?

 
Quote
The ironic thing is that Adam Smith's entire outlook (and indeed that of every free-market fan, including the Libertarians) is based on an economy of small shopkeepers -- a society that simply no longer exists.  The natural trend of any market system is towards oligopoly and corporate monopoly.  The big boys don't play by "the market" --- indeed they do everything they can to AVOID "the market".  And unlike the little guys, the big boys have the economic, political and social power to do it.
Well, no Google doesn't like to "play the market" and neither does any big oil company.

But, you can't just go from one extreme to the other. You can't say that because unfettered capitalism leads to tyranny we must become communist.

What would be nice is a government that can check corporate power instead of colluding with it and enabling it. Alas, there is no magic system that can circumvent human failings when it comes to corruption or greed.

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With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2007,22:15   

Well, as I noted before, it is the corporados themselves who are building a socialistic economy.  They've already largely done away with private property and replaced it with socialized property.  The only difference is that they try very hard to monopolize all the decision-making power (and economic benefit) from it, in their own hands, and keep it out of everyone else's hands (such as, oh, the millions of people who are affected by those deicisons but who have no say in them).  

Which seems, well, rather undemocratic to me . . . . .

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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2007,22:20   

Quote (phonon @ May 07 2007,19:14)
What would be nice is a government that can check corporate power instead of colluding with it and enabling it.

Well, in a government where money rules and the corporados have all the money, it's simply impossible for any effective government control over corporations.  Fox, henhouse, and all that.

What would be needed is (1) removal of money from the electoral process and (2) government input in corproate decisions.  (Which sounds pretty, uh, socialistic to me . . . . )

The corporados will die fighting, of course, before allowing either one.

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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2007,22:31   

Quote (phonon @ May 07 2007,19:14)
Alas, there is no magic system that can circumvent human failings when it comes to corruption or greed.

Of course there is --- we call it "democracy".  It does a pretty darn good job of preventing corruption and greed from running rampant.  As George Bush and the Republicans are about to find out . . .

I think "democracy" is a wonderful thing.  That's why I think we should have it WITHIN the workplace as well as outside of it.

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2007,22:49   

Quote (phonon @ May 07 2007,19:14)
Also, what about service related "industries" like law where the "workers" are paid handsomely?

What about them?  They are, economically and politically, bit players.


And in any industry where the "workers" are paid "handsomely", the owners are paid obscenely.  After all, business owners aren't in business to give good paychecks to their employees.  It's not their employees' bank account the owners are interested in.

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phonon



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(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2007,14:04   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 07 2007,22:15)
Well, as I noted before, it is the corporados themselves who are building a socialistic economy.  They've already largely done away with private property and replaced it with socialized property.  The only difference is that they try very hard to monopolize all the decision-making power (and economic benefit) from it, in their own hands, and keep it out of everyone else's hands (such as, oh, the millions of people who are affected by those deicisons but who have no say in them).  

Which seems, well, rather undemocratic to me . . . . .

I think "fascist" is the word you're looking for. At least when using Mussolini's definition of the term.

This is the result of poor lawmaking and flaws in our constitution. It's too easy to buy your way into the pages of the US Code and make laws that benefit your financial interests.

 
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 07 2007,22:20)
 
Quote (phonon @ May 07 2007,19:14)
What would be nice is a government that can check corporate power instead of colluding with it and enabling it.

Well, in a government where money rules and the corporados have all the money, it's simply impossible for any effective government control over corporations.  Fox, henhouse, and all that.

What would be needed is (1) removal of money from the electoral process and (2) government input in corproate decisions.  (Which sounds pretty, uh, socialistic to me . . . . )

The corporados will die fighting, of course, before allowing either one.

Direct government input into corporate decisions? I don't like it. It sounds too close to what we have now wrt to energy companies, telecom companies, and airlines and the such. If by "input" you mean the formation of laws that corporations have to follow, well, that's different.

 
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 07 2007,22:31)
 
Quote (phonon @ May 07 2007,19:14)
Alas, there is no magic system that can circumvent human failings when it comes to corruption or greed.

Of course there is --- we call it "democracy".  It does a pretty darn good job of preventing corruption and greed from running rampant.  As George Bush and the Republicans are about to find out . . .

I think "democracy" is a wonderful thing.  That's why I think we should have it WITHIN the workplace as well as outside of it.

Hmm, unfettered "democracy" would lead to exactly what we have now. If you're rich enough, you can buy favors from politicians or supply your own, hijack the system. Voters are usually too stupid to notice or realize. This isn't really the way we envision democracy being practiced ideally, but it's the way it turns out in the real world.

My solution to that sort of thing would be public campaign finance and very strict laws regarding gifts to politicians. I'd basically outlaw it altogether and if there was so much as a fishing trip thrown in, the politician and the gift bearers would all be in prison for some number of years.


Now, wrt to "democracy within the workplace," what do you mean?

If you mean that corporate decisions are made by a majority of the workers in the company how would that work? First off, how would companies be started? Who would risk the initial capital? Then, once the company is started, who gets a vote? Does Bob in the mailroom who was hired last week get a vote equal to the VP of marketing?

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With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: May 10 2007,17:49   

Quote (phonon @ May 10 2007,14:04)
This is the result of poor lawmaking and flaws in our constitution. It's too easy to buy your way into the pages of the US Code and make laws that benefit your financial interests.

It was, of course, INTENDED to be that way.  That's why, under the Constitution, only white male property owners were allowed to vote.  After all, that's the only people that those who wrote the Constitution were at all interested in "protecting".

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