stevestory
Posts: 13407
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Jesus Fuckballs Christ | Quote | 18
Bornagain77
May 3, 2021 at 8:06 am
Gordon Davisson states,
For example, do you consider ultraviolet light to qualify as “assistance”? Because if you don’t, then the formation of ozone (O3 gas) in the upper atmosphere is a counterexample, since O3 has both higher energy and lower entropy than the O2 it forms from. On the other hand, if you do consider UV light to be “assistance”, then it’s hard to see how this is relevant to the origin of life.
GD, I suggest that you write Dr. Miller, via the Discovery Institute, and get into the specific details with Dr. Miller to see why Ozone formation, like water freezing or soap molecules forming micelles (e.g., spheres or bilayers), does not represent a system moving towards ‘lower entropy and higher energy.’
As Dr. Miller noted in refuting the Darwinian claim that water freezing or soap molecules forming micelles represented a ‘local’ violation of the second law, the entropy decrease was always ‘paid’ for:
“More specifically, the process of freezing releases heat that increases the entropy of the surrounding environment by an amount greater than the entropy decrease of the water molecule forming the rigid structure.
Likewise, soap molecules coalescing into micelles represents a net increase of entropy since the surrounding water molecules significantly increase in their number of degrees of freedom.”
– Brian Miller
Gordon, you stated that “it’s hard to see how this is relevant to the origin of life.”
Yet by the same token, it is exponentially harder to see how Ozone formation is remotely relevant to the origin of life (OOL).
As the following site points out, Ozone itself is very thermodynamically unstable. To quote the article, “most of the O3 generated in the stratosphere is constantly destroyed.”
“Hence most of the O3 generated in the stratosphere is constantly destroyed”.
“O3 in the stratosphere is constantly being formed, decomposed and reformed during daylight hours by a series of reactions. Rates of these reactions differ depending upon altitude.”
“Ozone effectively absorbs the most energetic ultraviolet light, known as UV-C and UV-B, which causes biological damage”
– Stratospheric Chemistry: The Ozone Layer – January 2013
• UV radiation and its impact
• Chemical reactions induced by light • The Ozone Layer
• Review/Thermodynamics Principles
https://www3.nd.edu/~pkamat....re2.pdf
Ozone being constantly destroyed, as should be needless to say, is certainly not indicative that material processes have the capacity within themselves to overcome the second law in order to explain why life is so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium. If anything, constant ozone destruction clearly reiterates the point that they don’t have the capacity within themselves.
However your discussion with Dr. Miller turns out, (if you even decide to honestly ask him about the thermodynamics of ozone formation, and see if it really does present a challenge to his claim that “No system without assistance ever moves both toward lower entropy and higher energy which is required for the formation of a cell.”), it seems to me, as a layman, that it is highly disingenuous for you to point to such a thermodynamically unstable particle as ozone and say, basically, “Aha, you see thermodynamics does not present any difficulty for naturalistic OOL scenarios at all.”
If anything, your example of the highly unstable ozone molecule highlights the extreme difficulty facing OOL researchers. i.e. Exactly, how do you get a thermodynamically stable system, i.e. ‘simple’ life, that represents both a dramatic decrease in entropy and an equally dramatic increase in energy?
But anyways, be that as it may, Gordon goes on to state that, “perpetual motion is entirely possible if there’s an external source of nonequilibrium energy.”
Gordon I mentioned the requirement for a constant source of energy in order for perpetual motion machines to be theoretically feasible in post 3. But I also pointed out in post 3 that you, as a Darwinist, also believe, in effect, that unguided material processes, all by their lonesome, can construct highly sophisticated perpetual motion machines, that greatly outclass anything man has thus far created in terms of machines, and that these highly sophisticate perpetual motion machines can then go to create even greater and more sophisticated perpetual motion machines, and on and on, ad infinitum.
If you do not see even a minor problem with that Darwinian scenario, might I suggest that you go try to build, via your own intelligence, a simple mechanical perpetual motion machine. Once you have done that, multiply the difficulty you experienced in building the device by at least a million. Then you will have a small inkling as to the impossibly of unguided material processes, all by their lonesome, ever creating a ‘simple cell’.
The simplest life ever found on earth, even the simplest realistically feasible life on earth, is far, far, more complex than anything man has ever built.
To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers – July 2012
Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That’s a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,,
The bioengineers, led by Stanford’s Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What’s fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell’s lifecycle processes.,,,
,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore’s Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that’s only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,,
http://www.theatlantic.com/tec..............8
Minimal Cell Challenges Naturalism – March 26, 2016
Excerpt: “If we’re already playing God, we’re not doing a particularly good job of it,” Elfick says. “Simply streamlining what’s already in nature doesn’t seem very God-like and, if anything, is a very humbling exercise.”
Venter also felt the humility vibes, according to Live Science:
“We’re showing how complex life is even in the simplest of organisms,” said Craig Venter, founder and CEO of the J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI), where the study was completed. “These findings are very humbling in that regard.”
http://crev.info/2016.......uralism
Are you beginning to get a small inkling as to just how impossible the problem facing OOL researchers actually is Gordon?
Gordon concludes his comment with this claim,
And BTW if you did manage to show a conflict, it wouldn’t point to intelligent design, because intelligent designers cannot overcome the limitations of the second law. In fact, that’s how the second law was discovered — people designing things like steam engines found that there were limits to the efficiency of their engines that they just couldn’t get past, no matter how clever their designs were.
Funny you should mention that, I read a Quanta article yesterday in which they said, in effect, that Maxwell’s demon, (i.e. a causal agent), can locally violate the second law as long the Maxwell’s demon does not erase the information he used to ‘locally’ violate the second law. It is only when the demon erases the information that he used to violate the second law that the second law is ‘paid for’.
How Maxwell’s Demon Continues to Startle Scientists – April 2021
Excerpt: A thought experiment devised by the Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell in 1867 stumped scientists for 115 years. And even after a solution was found, physicists have continued to use “Maxwell’s demon” to push the laws of the universe to their limits.,,,
In 1982, the American physicist Charles Bennett put the pieces of the puzzle together. He realized that Maxwell’s demon was at core an information-processing machine: It needed to record and store information about individual particles in order to decide when to open and close the door. Periodically it would need to erase this information. According to Landauer’s erasure principle, the rise in entropy from the erasure would more than compensate for the decrease in entropy caused by the sorting of the particles. “You need to pay,” said Gonzalo Manzano, a physicist at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information in Vienna. The demon’s need to make room for more information inexorably led to a net increase in disorder.,,,
Then in the 21st century, with the thought experiment solved, the real experiments began. “The most important development is we can now realize Maxwell’s demon in laboratories,” said Sagawa.
In 2007 scientists used a light-powered gate to demonstrate the idea of Maxwell’s demon in action; in 2010, another team devised a way to use the energy produced by the demon’s information to coax a bead uphill; and in 2016 scientists applied the idea of Maxwell’s demon to two compartments containing not gas, but light.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-max....0210422
In fact, theoretically the information used by the demon to locally violate the second law can be erased without using any energy at all.
As the following article explains,“theoretically, information can be erased without using any energy at all.,,,Landauer said that information is physical because it takes energy to erase it. We are saying that the reason it (information) is physical has a broader context than that.”
Scientists show how to erase information without using energy – January 2011
Excerpt: Until now, scientists have thought that the process of erasing information requires energy. But a new study shows that, theoretically, information can be erased without using any energy at all.,,, “Landauer said that information is physical because it takes energy to erase it. We are saying that the reason it (information) is physical has a broader context than that.”, Vaccaro explained.
http://www.physorg.com/news.......gy.html
In fact Gordon, such experimental realizations of the Maxwell demon thought experiment, as well as advances in Quantum information theory, have forced researchers to realize that entropy is a property of an observer, not of the system.
As the following article states, “when the bits to be deleted are quantum-mechanically entangled with the state of an observer, then the observer could even withdraw heat from the system while deleting the bits. Entanglement links the observer’s state to that of the computer in such a way that they know more about the memory than is possible in classical physics.,,,
In measuring entropy, one should bear in mind that an object does not have a certain amount of entropy per se, instead an object’s entropy is always dependent on the observer”
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 1, 2011
Excerpt: The new study revisits Landauer’s principle for cases when the values of the bits to be deleted may be known. When the memory content is known, it should be possible to delete the bits in such a manner that it is theoretically possible to re-create them. It has previously been shown that such reversible deletion would generate no heat. In the new paper, the researchers go a step further. They show that when the bits to be deleted are quantum-mechanically entangled with the state of an observer, then the observer could even withdraw heat from the system while deleting the bits. Entanglement links the observer’s state to that of the computer in such a way that they know more about the memory than is possible in classical physics.,,,
In measuring entropy, one should bear in mind that an object does not have a certain amount of entropy per se, instead an object’s entropy is always dependent on the observer. Applied to the example of deleting data, this means that if two individuals delete data in a memory and one has more knowledge of this data, she perceives the memory to have lower entropy and can then delete the memory using less energy.,,,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.........300.htm
And as the following article states, “James Clerk Maxwell (said), “The idea of dissipation of energy depends on the extent of our knowledge.”,,,
quantum information theory,,, describes the spread of information through quantum systems.,,,
Fifteen years ago, “we thought of entropy as a property of a thermodynamic system,” he said. “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”,,,
The Quantum Thermodynamics Revolution – May 2017
Excerpt: the 19th-century physicist James Clerk Maxwell put it, “The idea of dissipation of energy depends on the extent of our knowledge.”
In recent years, a revolutionary understanding of thermodynamics has emerged that explains this subjectivity using quantum information theory — “a toddler among physical theories,” as del Rio and co-authors put it, that describes the spread of information through quantum systems. Just as thermodynamics initially grew out of trying to improve steam engines, today’s thermodynamicists are mulling over the workings of quantum machines. Shrinking technology — a single-ion engine and three-atom fridge were both experimentally realized for the first time within the past year — is forcing them to extend thermodynamics to the quantum realm, where notions like temperature and work lose their usual meanings, and the classical laws don’t necessarily apply.
They’ve found new, quantum versions of the laws that scale up to the originals. Rewriting the theory from the bottom up has led experts to recast its basic concepts in terms of its subjective nature, and to unravel the deep and often surprising relationship between energy and information — the abstract 1s and 0s by which physical states are distinguished and knowledge is measured.,,,
Renato Renner, a professor at ETH Zurich in Switzerland, described this as a radical shift in perspective. Fifteen years ago, “we thought of entropy as a property of a thermodynamic system,” he said. “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”,,,
https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum....olution
To repeat that last statement, “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”
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Bornagain77
May 3, 2021 at 8:08 am
Gordon, simply put, these recent experimental realizations of the Maxwell demon thought experiment, as well as advances in quantum information theory, have directly falsified your belief that “intelligent designers cannot overcome the limitations of the second law”.
In short, it is possible for intelligent agents, via imparting immaterial information into a system, to locally circumvent the second law of thermodynamics in order to bring a system out of thermodynamic equilibrium to a state that is of lower entropy and higher energy.
As the following 2010 experiment found, “they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information.”
Maxwell’s demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle’s position) turns information into energy – November 2010
Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information.
http://www.physorg.com/news.......gy.html
As Christopher Jarzynski, who was instrumental in formulating the ‘equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information’, stated, “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,”
Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010
Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski.
http://www.scientificamerican......rts-inform/....-in....-inform
The Maxwell demon thought experiment has now even been extended to build a refrigerator that is powered by information. The implications are immense. As the following 2016 article states, “Recently came the most startling demonstration yet: a tiny machine powered purely by information, which chilled metal through the power of its knowledge. This seemingly magical device could put us on the road to new, more efficient nanoscale machines, a better understanding of the workings of life, and a more complete picture of perhaps our most fundamental theory of the physical world.”
New Scientist astounds: Information is physical – May 13, 2016
Excerpt: Recently came the most startling demonstration yet: a tiny machine powered purely by information, which chilled metal through the power of its knowledge. This seemingly magical device could put us on the road to new, more efficient nanoscale machines, a better understanding of the workings of life, and a more complete picture of perhaps our most fundamental theory of the physical world.
http://www.uncommondescent.com.....-physical/....hys....hysical
In short, advances in science have shown us that, “information, entropy, and energy should (now) be treated on equal footings.”
Information: From Maxwell’s demon to Landauer’s eraser – Lutz and Ciliberto – Oct. 25, 2015 – Physics Today
Excerpt: The above examples of gedanken-turned-real experiments provide a firm empirical foundation for the physics of information and tangible evidence of the intimate connection between information and energy. They have been followed by additional experiments and simulations along similar lines.12 (See, for example, Physics Today, August 2014, page 60.) Collectively, that body of experimental work further demonstrates the equivalence of information and thermodynamic entropies at thermal equilibrium.,,,
(2008) Sagawa and Ueda’s (theoretical) result extends the second law to explicitly incorporate information; it shows that information, entropy, and energy should be treated on equal footings.
http://www.johnboccio.com/rese.......ion.pdf
J. Parrondo, J. Horowitz, and T. Sagawa. Thermodynamics of information.
Nature Physics, 11:131-139, 2015.
These recent experimental findings are simply devastating for reductive materialists who believe immaterial information is simply ‘emergent’ from some material basis.
How much information is needed to explain the origin of a ’simple’ cell? Well, the information needed to be imparted into a system, by an intelligent ‘observer’, in order to bring the system far enough out of thermodynamic equilibrium in order to sustain life, is found to be immense.
The information content of a ‘simple cell’ when working from the thermodynamic perspective is found to be on the order of 10^12 bits,
Molecular Biophysics – Information theory. Relation between information and entropy: – Setlow-Pollard, Ed. Addison Wesley
Excerpt: Linschitz gave the figure 9.3 x 10^12 cal/deg or 9.3 x 10^12 x 4.2 joules/deg for the entropy of a bacterial cell. Using the relation H = S/(k In 2), we find that the information content is 4 x 10^12 bits. Morowitz’ deduction from the work of Bayne-Jones and Rhees gives the lower value of 5.6 x 10^11 bits, which is still in the neighborhood of 10^12 bits. Thus two quite different approaches give rather concordant figures.
https://docs.google.com/documen........dit
,,, Of note: 10^12 bits is equivalent to 100 million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
And while we are on the subject, how much information is required to build a human? Well, “the information to build a human infant, atom by atom, would take up the equivalent of enough thumb drives to fill the Titanic, multiplied by 2,000.”
In a TED Talk, (the Question You May Not Ask,,, Where did the information come from?) – November 29, 2017
Excerpt: Sabatini is charming.,,, he deploys some memorable images. He points out that the information to build a human infant, atom by atom, would take up the equivalent of enough thumb drives to fill the Titanic, multiplied by 2,000. Later he wheels out the entire genome, in printed form, of a human being,,,,:
[F]or the first time in history, this is the genome of a specific human, printed page-by-page, letter-by-letter: 262,000 pages of information, 450 kilograms.,,,
https://evolutionnews.org/2017.......not-ask
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Bornagain77
May 3, 2021 at 8:09 am
Moreover, to show that it is God who is imparting this massive amount of immaterial information into the first life, as well as imparting it into each individual human, (in order to ‘locally’ circumvent the second law with immaterial information), I can appeal to advances in quantum biology.
Specifically, Quantum Entanglement/Coherence, and/or Quantum Criticality, is found to be ubiquitous within life. It is found within every important biomolecule of life.
As the following 2015 article entitled, “Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules”, stated, “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” and the researchers further commented that “finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,
Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules – Mar. 6, 2015
Excerpt: “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” they say.
That’s a discovery that is as important as it is unexpected. “These findings suggest an entirely new and universal mechanism of conductance in biology very different from the one used in electrical circuits.”
The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,
“what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?”
https://medium.com/the-phy....7924552
And as this follow up article in 2018 stated, “There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,,”
Quantum Critical Proteins – Stuart Lindsay – Professor of Physics and Chemistry at Arizona State University – 2018
Excerpt: The difficulty with this proposal lies in its improbability. Only an infinitesimal density of random states exists near the critical point.,,
Gábor Vattay et al. recently examined a number of proteins and conducting and insulating polymers.14 The distribution for the insulators and conductors were as expected, but the functional proteins all fell on the quantum-critical distribution. Such a result cannot be a consequence of chance.,,,
WHAT OF quantum criticality? Vattay et al. carried out electronic structure calculations for the very large protein used in our work. They found that the distribution of energy-level spacings fell on exactly the quantum-critical distribution, implying that this protein is also quantum critical. There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,,
http://inference-review.com/ar.........roteins
Gábor Vattay et al., “Quantum Criticality at the Origin of Life,” Journal of Physics: Conference Series 626 (2015);
Gábor Vattay, Stuart Kauffman, and Samuli Niiranen, “Quantum Biology on the Edge of Quantum Chaos,” PLOS One 9, no. 3 (2014)
As well, DNA itself does not belong to the world of classical mechanics but instead belongs to the world of quantum mechanics. In the following video, at the 22:20 minute mark, Dr Rieper shows why the high temperatures of biological systems do not prevent DNA from having quantum entanglement and then at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper goes on to remark that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it.
“What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.”
Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it)
https://youtu.be/2nqHOnV....?t=1176
The interesting thing about quantum coherence and/or quantum entanglement is that it is a non-local, beyond space and time, effect that requires a beyond space and time cause in order to explain its existence.
As the following paper entitled “Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory” stated, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012
Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
http://www.quantumlah.org/high.......ces.php
Darwinian materialists simply have no beyond space and time cause to appeal to. Whereas I, as a Christian Theist, do readily have a beyond space and time cause that I can appeal to.
As Colossians 1:17 states, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Moreover, quantum information, like energy, is conserved. As the following article states, “In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.”
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – 2011
Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment.
http://www.physorg.com/news.......ly.html
The implication of finding ‘non-local’, (i.e. beyond space and time), and ‘conserved’, (i.e. cannot be created nor destroyed), quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious.
That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, “the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe – Oct. 19, 2017 – Spiritual
Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
– Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark) (of note, this video is no longer available for public viewing)
https://radaronline.com/exclusi....freeman
Verse:
Mark 8:37
Is anything worth more than your soul?
Supplemental note:
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II – video
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Yeah this guy’s totally mentally healthy
Edited by stevestory on May 03 2021,20:08
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