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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,10:50   

Go for it Gary.
I'm sure the 3 fans you have on Planet Source Code would contribute for a cut of the winnings.

Meanwhile, forgive me while I ROFLMFAO.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,12:26   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,10:28)
         
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,10:06)
Given that I have no telepathy, no, I had no knowledge of any prior causal locus for Gary's consultation with Casey Luskin. However,.........[Restored:] However, we can easily dispose of the implication that there was nothing prospective concerning that consultation because Gary directly says that there was, and even names me specifically. I've been quoting that over and over. Nor does Gary's past have anything to do with his more recent statement that he is still looking to goad me into giving him an actionable statement to act upon.

Well then it would have been a good idea to ask for more information, before reading between the lines for what you wanted to read, not what is actually there.

You are also still ignoring the question Erasmus had. And I'm still curious why you don't think the defamation that has already been documented in this thread is not already actionable, when it in fact it already is. The only question is whether it is worth the time and effort required to bring such a case to court.

Gary has been documented castigating others for not simply reading what he has written. Gary has been documented as being completely unresponsive to reasonable questions. Gary has been documented claiming that what he writes is completely obvious as to his intents and aims. So Gary probably out to think about what it means to claim that the quote in question requires a round of questions to clarify. It means that Gary's various claims and behaviors were not justified or justifiable, for starters.

As for reading what "is actually there", my reading comprehension is good. Gary's original statement on its face is reasonably parsed as I have taken it. Gary clearly stated (at least, as clearly as Gary has stated anything) that he sought to apply his legal consultation prospectively as is indicated by his phrasing "before I came to this forum" and "places like this". Gary would have difficulty convincing a court otherwise.

As mentioned before, what went before Gary's consultation doesn't have a bearing on his statement today that he is still on the lookout for actionable statements from me, a clear expression of his current intent with respect to me personally. So asking questions about Gary's past motivations is, again, irrelevant.

I've already discussed what problems Gary would have trying to sue for defamation.

       
Quote

Gary's going to have a hard row to hoe to go to court with a defamation claim.

Gary's various brags about his standing, the good reception of his work, and his own perception of his role in bringing "intelligent design" to science will make it possible to argue that Gary has already stipulated his status to be one of a "public figure". This would make his standard of proof for claims much, much higher than those for a private citizen.

Gary's discussion of the involvement of others, like his wife and the Discovery Institute, is likely to embroil them in any case that he brings.

Given Gary's record of false and provocative statements here, his testimony of financial desperation, and his collusion with third parties with respect to prospective discussion of legal action prior to his arrival in this forum, there is ample reason to suspect malice on Gary's part in attempting to get money out of correspondents via the courts, and it should not be difficult to make that case to the court, either as a defense or in a countersuit.

Gary will open himself up to counterclaims. Gary has stipulated that he has published untrue claims about me, for instance, and even demonstrating willful disregard and actual malice on his part might be doable. (I'll certainly be motivated to give it a try if I get sued.)

Truth of claims is an absolute defense to claims of defamation. There is also the defense of "substantial truth", where even if a claim is not literally true in every respect, a defendant can prevail if the plaintiff cannot show that the true claim is not significantly less damaging. Nitpicking of the sort Gary has engaged in here is not going to work well in a courtroom. Beyond that, things that are clearly matters of opinion are protected speech in the USA and cannot form the basis of a defamation claim.

As others have noted more succinctly, Gary's odds of success with any such action look to be mighty slim. Gary ought to be checking out what happens financially to people who bring lawsuits that the courts assess and deem to be frivolous.


I know Gary saw this, because he wrote a reply quoting it, and furthered claimed that he wasn't talking about defamation then. His current post makes clear that Gary is interested in pursuing defamation claims.


It's not a diagram, but it does seem to annoy Gary to have his reasons for approaching discussion the way he does laid out clearly and documented in his own testimony.

The question of why Gary goes for false, provocative, and malicious statements when mentioning me or replying to me does have an answer. Gary thinks that 1) I have "big-bucks" and 2) if I say something actionable, Gary could sue me and get them. We know this from Gary himself. He refers to "big-bucks" (quoted in this post). And Gary previously revealed his premeditated approach and strategy for using the legal system to enrich himself:

       
                               
Quote


And before I came to this forum Casey gave me free legal advice in regard to what is legally over the line enough to easily win a case for that can come at me from places like this. Where reversed upon Wesley, it would be like someone anonymously calling campus security where they are working to report that their loss of mind is endangering the lives of all in the building they are in, when the truth that was stretched out of proportion is that they needed to use a small amount of flammable liquid to patch around the air conditioning unit that let water pour in every time it rained.


And Gary confirmed again that he was still looking for actionable statements from me here:

                   
Quote

I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,13:01   

Quote
Defamation: Any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person's reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.


Looks like Gary's got nothing. "Gary's clueless" "Gary's babbling gibberish is incoherent." "Gary may well be the worst English writer alive." "Gary gets numerous basics about science wrong." "The average 5th grader has better scientific and communication skills than Gary." etc. don't qualify because they aren't false statements.

As far as inducing hostile or disparaging feelings, Gary himself has been doing that himself for years.

And of course Gary's reputation can't be harmed by us because his reputation, long before he came here, is "babbling internet crank", and we've done nothing to change that.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,13:01   

And the 'meta-reason', if you will, for why he is so desperate to find some grounds for action at law is it seems to be the sole remaining possible indicator of his own significance.

That Gary, nor Gary's works, matter not at all is perhaps the biggest bur under his saddle.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,13:40   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,11:28)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,10:06)
Given that I have no telepathy, no, I had no knowledge of any prior causal locus for Gary's consultation with Casey Luskin. However,.........

Well then it would have been a good idea to ask for more information, before reading between the lines for what you wanted to read, not what is actually there.

You are also still ignoring the question Erasmus had. And I'm still curious why you don't think the defamation that has already been documented in this thread is not already actionable, when it in fact it already is. The only question is whether it is worth the time and effort required to bring such a case to court.

No, loony tunes, you don't get to cite my posts until you answer my questions

It's not actionable to say you are loonier than a bull goose because you have demonstrated that far beyond any shadow of a doubt, in this thread alone.

your lips, my ass

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,13:46   

Wes, I don't get why you're giving this fool any traction anyway.

Put up or shut up, Gaulin.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,16:15   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,12:26)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,10:28)
             
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,10:06)
Given that I have no telepathy, no, I had no knowledge of any prior causal locus for Gary's consultation with Casey Luskin. However,.........[Restored:] However, we can easily dispose of the implication that there was nothing prospective concerning that consultation because Gary directly says that there was, and even names me specifically. I've been quoting that over and over. Nor does Gary's past have anything to do with his more recent statement that he is still looking to goad me into giving him an actionable statement to act upon.

Well then it would have been a good idea to ask for more information, before reading between the lines for what you wanted to read, not what is actually there.

You are also still ignoring the question Erasmus had. And I'm still curious why you don't think the defamation that has already been documented in this thread is not already actionable, when it in fact it already is. The only question is whether it is worth the time and effort required to bring such a case to court.

Gary has been documented castigating others for not simply reading what he has written. Gary has been documented as being completely unresponsive to reasonable questions. Gary has been documented claiming that what he writes is completely obvious as to his intents and aims. So Gary probably out to think about what it means to claim that the quote in question requires a round of questions to clarify. It means that Gary's various claims and behaviors were not justified or justifiable, for starters.

As for reading what "is actually there", my reading comprehension is good. Gary's original statement on its face is reasonably parsed as I have taken it. Gary clearly stated (at least, as clearly as Gary has stated anything) that he sought to apply his legal consultation prospectively as is indicated by his phrasing "before I came to this forum" and "places like this". Gary would have difficulty convincing a court otherwise.

As mentioned before, what went before Gary's consultation doesn't have a bearing on his statement today that he is still on the lookout for actionable statements from me, a clear expression of his current intent with respect to me personally. So asking questions about Gary's past motivations is, again, irrelevant.

I've already discussed what problems Gary would have trying to sue for defamation.

           
Quote

Gary's going to have a hard row to hoe to go to court with a defamation claim.

Gary's various brags about his standing, the good reception of his work, and his own perception of his role in bringing "intelligent design" to science will make it possible to argue that Gary has already stipulated his status to be one of a "public figure". This would make his standard of proof for claims much, much higher than those for a private citizen.

Gary's discussion of the involvement of others, like his wife and the Discovery Institute, is likely to embroil them in any case that he brings.

Given Gary's record of false and provocative statements here, his testimony of financial desperation, and his collusion with third parties with respect to prospective discussion of legal action prior to his arrival in this forum, there is ample reason to suspect malice on Gary's part in attempting to get money out of correspondents via the courts, and it should not be difficult to make that case to the court, either as a defense or in a countersuit.

Gary will open himself up to counterclaims. Gary has stipulated that he has published untrue claims about me, for instance, and even demonstrating willful disregard and actual malice on his part might be doable. (I'll certainly be motivated to give it a try if I get sued.)

Truth of claims is an absolute defense to claims of defamation. There is also the defense of "substantial truth", where even if a claim is not literally true in every respect, a defendant can prevail if the plaintiff cannot show that the true claim is not significantly less damaging. Nitpicking of the sort Gary has engaged in here is not going to work well in a courtroom. Beyond that, things that are clearly matters of opinion are protected speech in the USA and cannot form the basis of a defamation claim.

As others have noted more succinctly, Gary's odds of success with any such action look to be mighty slim. Gary ought to be checking out what happens financially to people who bring lawsuits that the courts assess and deem to be frivolous.


I know Gary saw this, because he wrote a reply quoting it, and furthered claimed that he wasn't talking about defamation then. His current post makes clear that Gary is interested in pursuing defamation claims.


It's not a diagram, but it does seem to annoy Gary to have his reasons for approaching discussion the way he does laid out clearly and documented in his own testimony.

The question of why Gary goes for false, provocative, and malicious statements when mentioning me or replying to me does have an answer. Gary thinks that 1) I have "big-bucks" and 2) if I say something actionable, Gary could sue me and get them. We know this from Gary himself. He refers to "big-bucks" (quoted in this post). And Gary previously revealed his premeditated approach and strategy for using the legal system to enrich himself:

       
                                   
Quote


And before I came to this forum Casey gave me free legal advice in regard to what is legally over the line enough to easily win a case for that can come at me from places like this. Where reversed upon Wesley, it would be like someone anonymously calling campus security where they are working to report that their loss of mind is endangering the lives of all in the building they are in, when the truth that was stretched out of proportion is that they needed to use a small amount of flammable liquid to patch around the air conditioning unit that let water pour in every time it rained.


And Gary confirmed again that he was still looking for actionable statements from me here:

                       
Quote

I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.


Wow, now you’re talking like I mentioned your name in regard to legal issues to Casey when the truth is: At the time I did not even know you.

Since I move around the internet, I later gave Casey a link to this thread. But I made sure Kathy Martin and others who need to know had the link too. It’s nothing to get paranoid about.

Being caught red-handed not even having looked at the theory, and your talk about purposely inflicting pain for reasons of behavior modification, makes a much easier case against you, than the one I spoke to Casey about. In court would be a real judge waiting for you (who represents university level academia) to show what you have that proves there is something wrong with higly respected David Heiserman, Arnold Trehub and others who form the core of the theory and are being properly represented regardless of your objections to it further predicting that cells have intelligence (that David Heiserman also indicates is true in a book he wrote). Your tactic of starting a semantics issue to throw more insults at me with instead of directly answering vital questions will force the judge to throw the book at you. That’s why I’m wondering how you could possibly outdo yourself without immediately getting arrested for a criminal act.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,16:37   

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2013,13:01)
Quote
Defamation: Any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person's reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.


Looks like Gary's got nothing. "Gary's clueless" "Gary's babbling gibberish is incoherent." "Gary may well be the worst English writer alive." "Gary gets numerous basics about science wrong." "The average 5th grader has better scientific and communication skills than Gary." etc. don't qualify because they aren't false statements.

As far as inducing hostile or disparaging feelings, Gary himself has been doing that himself for years.

And of course Gary's reputation can't be harmed by us because his reputation, long before he came here, is "babbling internet crank", and we've done nothing to change that.

I had to work today, and was again lucky to have had time to post at all. Arguments over typos and grammar are so tripe anyway, you're only helping to prove that science is not on your side.

Here's a song for the occasion, that I heard on 99.3 today:

Butthole Surfers - Pepper

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,16:54   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,17:15)
In court would be a real judge waiting for you (who represents university level academia) to show what you have that proves there is something wrong with higly respected David Heiserman, Arnold Trehub and others who form the core of the theory and are being properly represented regardless of your objections to it further predicting that cells have intelligence (that David Heiserman also indicates is true in a book he wrote). Your tactic of starting a semantics issue to throw more insults at me with instead of directly answering vital questions will force the judge to throw the book at you. That’s why I’m wondering how you could possibly outdo yourself without immediately getting arrested for a criminal act.

Quote
40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked your theories will be forced to recant.)


crackpot index

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,16:57   

Quote
That’s why I’m wondering how you could possibly outdo yourself without immediately getting arrested for a criminal act.


In what deranged fantasy world of yours are any of us going to get arrested?

Crackheads make more sense than you do.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,17:12   

Good grief.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,18:16   

From Gary's screed, Gary's documented misunderstandings would form the basis of any court case he makes. I've responded to each of the issues Gary cites, which should give a competent reader pause in thinking that those add up to something Gary could use as a legal sledgehammer, nor even a recognizable cause of action. On the other hand, Gary has given me good grounds for a countersuit should that be needed.

But since Gary says he wants to talk about science, let's look closer at a claim that Gary makes that is checkable.

Gary:

   
Quote

[...]
predicting that cells have intelligence (that David Heiserman also indicates is true in a book he wrote)
[...]


If Gary were going to try to enter this as evidence someplace, he'd have to give a citation for it. I doubt that Heiserman is claiming what Gary claims.

Let's see the citation. We know the author, and that the source is a book, so we can go easy on Gary and just ask for the title, edition, and page number. Dollars to donuts I have a copy on my bookshelf and can check out the source in minutes. Since Heiserman himself discusses his robotic approach in terms of evolution, the likelihood that Heiserman cast his comments in terms of excluding evolutionary processes as the source of any intelligent capability of cells would be small. But we can assess that only if Gary manages to say where, exactly, the passage he refers to may be found.



And it seems to be time for the usual footnote...

It's not a diagram, but it does seem to annoy Gary to have his reasons for approaching discussion the way he does laid out clearly and documented in his own testimony.

The question of why Gary goes for false, provocative, and malicious statements when mentioning me or replying to me does have an answer. Gary thinks that 1) I have "big-bucks" and 2) if I say something actionable, Gary could sue me and get them. We know this from Gary himself. He refers to "big-bucks" (quoted in this post). And Gary previously revealed his premeditated approach and strategy for using the legal system to enrich himself:

       
                                     
Quote


And before I came to this forum Casey gave me free legal advice in regard to what is legally over the line enough to easily win a case for that can come at me from places like this. Where reversed upon Wesley, it would be like someone anonymously calling campus security where they are working to report that their loss of mind is endangering the lives of all in the building they are in, when the truth that was stretched out of proportion is that they needed to use a small amount of flammable liquid to patch around the air conditioning unit that let water pour in every time it rained.


And Gary confirmed again that he was still looking for actionable statements from me here:

                         
Quote

I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,18:24   

Well, it's not like he's going to make a living off his, you know, actual work or anything.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,19:21   

defamation is a civil action. There's no arresting involved. How the fuck are we going to get 'immediately arrested', Gary? Explain a scenario where that happens.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,19:34   

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2013,19:21)
defamation is a civil action. There's no arresting involved. How the fuck are we going to get 'immediately arrested', Gary? Explain a scenario where that happens.

Gary is being a little coy, working right at the edge of libel per se in saying I'm close to committing criminal acts. An outright declaration that I have committed a criminal act, of course, would put him over that line. That Gary is able to navigate that close to the edge may indicate that he has ongoing "advice" being fed to him.

It's all explicable as part of Gary's stipulated strategy to try to get me to cross the line into libel per se. It is a reason that explains his false, provocative, and malicious text completely.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,19:53   

FWIW, I can't imagine GG actually trying to sue you in any sort of way you'd have to be worried about. I doubt any random lawyer would listen to Gary for more than a couple minutes before starting to think "How am I going to get this mental patient out of my office?" I can see him filing suit against you himself, maybe, using a form he downloaded off the intenet and mailing it "To: The Judge at The Courthouse where not just mine but others also Lawsuits are held in which though he thought he would win but he won't Wesley Elsberry will be found guilty of committing many extreme acts of slander or libel or whichever one happens on the Internet-place, and also it being the place where I will be awarded all of Wesley's monies."

ETA: "...and his van, too."

Edited by stevestory on July 14 2013,20:54

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,21:21   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,19:34)
 
Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2013,19:21)
defamation is a civil action. There's no arresting involved. How the fuck are we going to get 'immediately arrested', Gary? Explain a scenario where that happens.

Gary is being a little coy, working right at the edge of libel per se in saying I'm close to committing criminal acts. An outright declaration that I have committed a criminal act, of course, would put him over that line. That Gary is able to navigate that close to the edge may indicate that he has ongoing "advice" being fed to him.

It's all explicable as part of Gary's stipulated strategy to try to get me to cross the line into libel per se. It is a reason that explains his false, provocative, and malicious text completely.

You already crossed the line into "libel".

Your religiously fueled hoax that is aimed at publicly funded education and encourages classroom bullying is likely criminal, but I'll let someone else work on that issue, so I can get work done on the new software.  

And as you requested (but I'm not going to search for the the page number just to call your bluff) is this from theory:

 
Quote
The core computer model of this theory was reduced/simplified by experimentation with (primarily) Beta Class intelligence generating algorithm from Heiserman, D. L., in the book “How to Build Your Own Self-Programming Robot”, Blue Ridge Summit, PA, TAB Books, Inc., 1979. The following are David’s thoughts on classes of intelligence as they relate to the robotic system named “Rodney”.

(1) ALPHA CLASS

While Alpha Rodney does exhibit some interesting behavioral characteristics, one really has to stretch the definition of intelligence to make it fit an Alpha-Class machine. The Intelligence is there, of course, but it operates on such a primitive level that little of significance comes from it. ....the essence of an Alpha-Class machine is its purely reflexive and, for the most part, random behavior. Alpha Rodney will behave much as a little one-cell creature that struggles to survive in its drop-of-water world. The machine will blunder around the room, working its way out of menacing tight spots, and hoping to stumble, quite accidentally, into the battery charger. In summary, an Alpha-Class machine is highly adaptive to changes in its environment. It displays a rather flat and low learning curve, but there is virtually no change in the curve when the environment is altered.

(2) BETA CLASS

A Beta-Class machine uses the Alpha-Class mechanisms, but extends them to include some memory - memory of responses that worked successfully in the past. The main-memory system is something quite different from the program memory you have been using. The program memory is the storage place for Rodney’s basic operating programs-programs that are somewhat analogous to intuition or the subconscious in higher-level animals. The main memory is the seat of Rodney’s knowledge and, in the case of Beta-Class machines, this means knowledge that is grained only by direct experience with the environment. A Beta-Class machine still relies on Alpha-like random responses in the early going but after experiencing some life and problem solving, knowledge in the main memory becomes dominant over the more primitive Alpha-Class reflex actions. A Beta-Class machine demonstrates a rising learning curve that eventually passes the scoring level of the best Alpha-Class machine. If the environment is static, the score eventually rises toward perfection. Change the environment, however, and a Beta-Class machine suffers for a while, the learning curve drops down to the chance level. However, the learning curve gradually rises toward perfection as the Beta-Class machine establishes a new pattern of behavior. Its adaptive process requires some time and experience to show itself, but the end result is a more efficient machine.

(3) GAMMA CLASS

A Gamma-Class robot includes the reflex and memory features of the two lower-order machines, but it also has the ability to generalize whatever it learns through direct experience. Once a Gamma-Class robot meets and solves a particular problem, it not only remembers the solution, but generalizes that solution into a variety of similar situations not yet encountered. Such a robot need not encounter every possible situation before discovering what it is supposed to do; rather, it generalizes its first-hand responses, thereby making it possible to deal with the unexpected elements of its life more effectively. A Gamma-Class machine is less upset by changes and recovers faster than the Beta-Class mechanism. This is due to its ability to anticipate changes.

The theory does not consider Alpha class intelligent but that does not matter since cells are now known to be far more complex than thought, back then.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,22:16   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,18:16)
 
Quote
I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.

This gem is a good example of how the hoax goes in circles. When asked to "at least attempt to find something actionable (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me, they answer "Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements."

Then they add a sentence that claims "Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here." but when you click on the link it's just the same post that says "I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me."

My best guess is that they cannot think of anything non-criminal (not get immediately arrested for) that they did not already try, and are trying to get out of answering the question by betting that the reader will believe their hoax, not notice that their links are not what they're claimed to be.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,22:26   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,21:21)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,19:34)
     
Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2013,19:21)
defamation is a civil action. There's no arresting involved. How the fuck are we going to get 'immediately arrested', Gary? Explain a scenario where that happens.

Gary is being a little coy, working right at the edge of libel per se in saying I'm close to committing criminal acts. An outright declaration that I have committed a criminal act, of course, would put him over that line. That Gary is able to navigate that close to the edge may indicate that he has ongoing "advice" being fed to him.

It's all explicable as part of Gary's stipulated strategy to try to get me to cross the line into libel per se. It is a reason that explains his false, provocative, and malicious text completely.

You already crossed the line into "libel".

Your religiously fueled hoax that is aimed at publicly funded education and encourages classroom bullying is likely criminal, but I'll let someone else work on that issue, so I can get work done on the new software.  

[...]

I'll address the libel issue in this message, and deal with discussion of Heiserman later. (Given that Gary couldn't be bothered to give a truly minimal citation, it will take some take to locate the passage that Gary refers to. Already, though, it appears that my commentary was accurate.)

Gary:

 
Quote

You already crossed the line into "libel".


I'm not aware of having done so anywhere. I'd certainly want to correct any such instance, though. Gary merely needs to effectively reference the instances he thinks meet the criteria of libel, and I'd be happy to retract each actual case and offer a public apology, which I will edit into the message itself. But I will not retract statements that are not actually libelous; I don't intend to retract anything that is true.

I'll note that I have asked Gary to retract false statements that he has made against me personally, identifying these clearly and promptly. This is an element of preserving my rights. Gary has so far refused to do so.

Gary:

 
Quote

Your religiously fueled hoax that is aimed at publicly funded education and encourages classroom bullying is likely criminal, but I'll let someone else work on that issue, so I can get work done on the new software.


I don't have a hoax. I'm not involved in anything criminal. Nor does Gary have any justified reason to say those things. Which brings us to...




And it seems to be time for the usual footnote...

It's not a diagram, but it does seem to annoy Gary to have his reasons for approaching discussion the way he does laid out clearly and documented in his own testimony.

The question of why Gary goes for false, provocative, and malicious statements when mentioning me or replying to me does have an answer. Gary thinks that 1) I have "big-bucks" and 2) if I say something actionable, Gary could sue me and get them. We know this from Gary himself. He refers to "big-bucks" (quoted in this post). And Gary previously revealed his premeditated approach and strategy for using the legal system to enrich himself:

       
                                         
Quote


And before I came to this forum Casey gave me free legal advice in regard to what is legally over the line enough to easily win a case for that can come at me from places like this. Where reversed upon Wesley, it would be like someone anonymously calling campus security where they are working to report that their loss of mind is endangering the lives of all in the building they are in, when the truth that was stretched out of proportion is that they needed to use a small amount of flammable liquid to patch around the air conditioning unit that let water pour in every time it rained.


And Gary confirmed again that he was still looking for actionable statements from me here:

                             
Quote

I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,22:35   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,22:16)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,18:16)
     
Quote
I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.

This gem is a good example of how the hoax goes in circles. When asked to "at least attempt to find something actionable (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me, they answer "Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements."

Then they add a sentence that claims "Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here." but when you click on the link it's just the same post that says "I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me."

My best guess is that they cannot think of anything non-criminal (not get immediately arrested for) that they did not already try, and are trying to get out of answering the question by betting that the reader will believe their hoax, not notice that their links are not what they're claimed to be.

Gary is confused.

Gary starts his statement with "I was hoping that" which is not about making a request, but rather about Gary's desire to get something actionable to act upon. And it is a spectacular confirmation, indeed, and quite linkworthy.




And it seems to be time for the usual footnote...

It's not a diagram, but it does seem to annoy Gary to have his reasons for approaching discussion the way he does laid out clearly and documented in his own testimony.

The question of why Gary goes for false, provocative, and malicious statements when mentioning me or replying to me does have an answer. Gary thinks that 1) I have "big-bucks" and 2) if I say something actionable, Gary could sue me and get them. We know this from Gary himself. He refers to "big-bucks" (quoted in this post). And Gary previously revealed his premeditated approach and strategy for using the legal system to enrich himself:

       
                                             
Quote


And before I came to this forum Casey gave me free legal advice in regard to what is legally over the line enough to easily win a case for that can come at me from places like this. Where reversed upon Wesley, it would be like someone anonymously calling campus security where they are working to report that their loss of mind is endangering the lives of all in the building they are in, when the truth that was stretched out of proportion is that they needed to use a small amount of flammable liquid to patch around the air conditioning unit that let water pour in every time it rained.


And Gary confirmed again that he was still looking for actionable statements from me here:

                                 
Quote

I was hoping Wesley would at least attempt to find something "actionable" (that is not outright criminal like chaining me inside a basement torture chamber) that was not already tried on me.


Unfortunately for Gary, he has not and will not be able to provoke me into actionable statements.

Gary's otherwise apparently bizarre behavior in his responses to me becomes explicable with the understanding that he has been angling for a lawsuit, confirmed definitively and spectacularly here.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,22:54   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,22:26)
I'll address the libel issue in this message, and deal with discussion of Heiserman later. (Given that Gary couldn't be bothered to give a truly minimal citation, it will take some take to locate the passage that Gary refers to. Already, though, it appears that my commentary was accurate.)

Here's another one for you to "deal with":

http://www.nature.com/news....5a.html

And:

http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehl....ary.htm

And:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science....5001011

And:

http://www.nature.com/nature....a0.html

And:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science....5000442

I'll stop there, even though I could easily find more.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,23:29   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,22:54)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2013,22:26)
I'll address the libel issue in this message, and deal with discussion of Heiserman later. (Given that Gary couldn't be bothered to give a truly minimal citation, it will take some take to locate the passage that Gary refers to. Already, though, it appears that my commentary was accurate.)

Here's another one for you to "deal with":

http://www.nature.com/news.......5a.html

And:

http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehl....ary.htm

And:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science....5001011

And:

http://www.nature.com/nature.....a0.html

And:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science....5000442

I'll stop there, even though I could easily find more.

Gary, you're being a coward by not giving the citation, as usual. Just give the citation.

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,23:45   

Quote (Arctodus23 @ July 14 2013,23:29)
Gary, you're being a coward by not giving the citation, as usual. Just give the citation.

I already did, along with the related text, but I can understand how vested interests can easily produce your need to be deceptive.

In science, a coward is someone like you who is unable to admit that they are wrong.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2013,23:50   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,23:45)

No! A 'book' is not a citation. Specify the book, chapter, and page number. You can't admit you're wrong anyway.

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2013,00:17   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 14 2013,21:21)
[...]

And as you requested (but I'm not going to search for the the page number just to call your bluff) is this from theory:

     
Quote
The core computer model of this theory was reduced/simplified by experimentation with (primarily) Beta Class intelligence generating algorithm from Heiserman, D. L., in the book “How to Build Your Own Self-Programming Robot”, Blue Ridge Summit, PA, TAB Books, Inc., 1979. The following are David’s thoughts on classes of intelligence as they relate to the robotic system named “Rodney”.

(1) ALPHA CLASS

While Alpha Rodney does exhibit some interesting behavioral characteristics, one really has to stretch the definition of intelligence to make it fit an Alpha-Class machine. The Intelligence is there, of course, but it operates on such a primitive level that little of significance comes from it. ....the essence of an Alpha-Class machine is its purely reflexive and, for the most part, random behavior. Alpha Rodney will behave much as a little one-cell creature that struggles to survive in its drop-of-water world. The machine will blunder around the room, working its way out of menacing tight spots, and hoping to stumble, quite accidentally, into the battery charger. In summary, an Alpha-Class machine is highly adaptive to changes in its environment. It displays a rather flat and low learning curve, but there is virtually no change in the curve when the environment is altered.

(2) BETA CLASS

A Beta-Class machine uses the Alpha-Class mechanisms, but extends them to include some memory - memory of responses that worked successfully in the past. The main-memory system is something quite different from the program memory you have been using. The program memory is the storage place for Rodney’s basic operating programs-programs that are somewhat analogous to intuition or the subconscious in higher-level animals. The main memory is the seat of Rodney’s knowledge and, in the case of Beta-Class machines, this means knowledge that is grained only by direct experience with the environment. A Beta-Class machine still relies on Alpha-like random responses in the early going but after experiencing some life and problem solving, knowledge in the main memory becomes dominant over the more primitive Alpha-Class reflex actions. A Beta-Class machine demonstrates a rising learning curve that eventually passes the scoring level of the best Alpha-Class machine. If the environment is static, the score eventually rises toward perfection. Change the environment, however, and a Beta-Class machine suffers for a while, the learning curve drops down to the chance level. However, the learning curve gradually rises toward perfection as the Beta-Class machine establishes a new pattern of behavior. Its adaptive process requires some time and experience to show itself, but the end result is a more efficient machine.

(3) GAMMA CLASS

A Gamma-Class robot includes the reflex and memory features of the two lower-order machines, but it also has the ability to generalize whatever it learns through direct experience. Once a Gamma-Class robot meets and solves a particular problem, it not only remembers the solution, but generalizes that solution into a variety of similar situations not yet encountered. Such a robot need not encounter every possible situation before discovering what it is supposed to do; rather, it generalizes its first-hand responses, thereby making it possible to deal with the unexpected elements of its life more effectively. A Gamma-Class machine is less upset by changes and recovers faster than the Beta-Class mechanism. This is due to its ability to anticipate changes.

The theory does not consider Alpha class intelligent but that does not matter since cells are now known to be far more complex than thought, back then.

There is a reason Gary doesn't provide "the page number": His quotes are likely a pastiche from a variety of places in the book.

For example, part of his quote, the second part highlighted as germane to Gary's claim, is from p. 157:

 
Quote


We have been fooling around long enough. It's high time that we get something rolling around the floor and behaving in a semi-intelligent manner. After completing the work and conducting the experiments outlined in this chapter, you will have been exposed, first hand, to a bit of genuine machine intelligence.

Recall that the essence of an Alpha-Class machine is its purely reflexive and, for the most part, random behavior. Alpha Rodney will behave much as a little one-cell creature that struggles to survive in its drop-of-water world.The machine will blunder around the room, working its way out of menacing tight spots, and hoping to stumble, quite accidentally, into the battery charger.

This chapter also includes...


It is not connected there to either what Gary prepends or appends.

For the passages to aid Gary, though, there needs to be an unequivocal relation of Heiserman's statements to the conjecture that intelligence precedes and obviates evolutionary processes. Notice Heiserman's phrasing within the passage invokes phrasing common to popular descriptions of evolution: "struggles to survive". For Gary's argument, he'd need to assert that Heiserman is not, as it seems, writing in a fully evolutionary context, but is instead deploying the phrasing as an ironic reference. The essence of what Gary needs for his conjecture is not only absent in the passage as quoted (both by Gary and by me), but also there are other passages in the same book that indicate the the conjecture Gary is pushing has nothing to do with what Heiserman is saying. For example, early in the book (p. 16), we find the following:

 
Quote

Alpha-Class robots might seem too simple to be of any real importance. Indeed, they are simply little creatures, but they do not represent a trivial step in the evolution of real robots. They manage to survive quite well in a moderately complex environment just as their organic counterparts, one-celled creatures, have survived throughout earth's biological history.


Again, we see the reliance Heiserman places on evolutionary process, that evolution gives rise to intelligence, and no hint that some immanent "intelligence" precedes and obviates evolutionary process.

The notion that single-celled organisms possess some degree of intelligence is not an antievolutionary stance in and of itself. I had originally written the following as part of my request for the Heiserman citation, but figured that giving Gary too much scope for digression would be counter-productive.

 
Quote

As for cells being intelligent, that isn't a claim that is unusual in science. Jeff Shallit and I make the point that intelligence can be assigned in a certain degree to single-celled life:

 
Quote

But this skepticism is apparently based in part on belief in a sharp distinction between intelligent and non-intelligent causes: agency is always either natural or intelligent, and cannot be both. But what if purpose, intelligence, and design are words we assign to emergent properties of complex systems? What if intelligence is not a binary classification, but a multifactorial gradation, with thermostats and bacteria being only slightly intelligent, and computers and rats more so?


Merely making the statement that intelligent behavior can be seen in some degree at the level of single cells is not an endorsement of Gary's claims. Been there, done the one, definitely am not doing the other.


This will also "deal with" any number of citations of intelligence existing at any scale throughout biology. A degree of intelligence in evolved organisms is not the issue. Gary needs a process that precedes and obviates evolutionary processes. And doesn't have it.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2013,00:45   

Gary apparently doesn't understand what "bluff" means, either.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2013,00:57   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 15 2013,00:17)
Again, we see the reliance Heiserman places on evolutionary process, that evolution gives rise to intelligence, and no hint that some immanent "intelligence" precedes and obviates evolutionary process.

After I proved that David Heiserman did in fact discuss intelligence as it relates to cells you had to resort to using stereotypes in order to make it appear to the reader that the scientific theory I explain invokes "immanent" supernatural intervention.

If what you are now claiming is true then you should have no problem finding where in the theory it states that "God did it" or similar statement that leaves things up to a supernatural Creator.

Here's the theory:

Theory of Intelligent Design

Now try to find the "God did it" answer to how "intelligent cause" works that you are now claiming is in there.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2013,00:59   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ July 15 2013,00:57)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 15 2013,00:17)
Again, we see the reliance Heiserman places on evolutionary process, that evolution gives rise to intelligence, and no hint that some immanent "intelligence" precedes and obviates evolutionary process.

After I proved that David Heiserman did in fact discuss intelligence as it relates to cells you had to resort to using stereotypes in order to make it appear to the reader that the scientific theory I explain invokes "immanent" supernatural intervention.

If what you are now claiming is true then you should have no problem finding where in the theory it states that "God did it" or similar statement that leaves things up to a supernatural Creator.

Here's the theory:

Theory of Intelligent Design

Now try to find the "God did it" answer to how "intelligent cause" works that you are now claiming is in there.

Define 'intelligence'. Then we'll get started, along with a citation.

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2013,01:19   


  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2013,01:26   

Quote (stevestory @ July 14 2013,17:21)
How the fuck are we going to get 'immediately arrested', Gary? Explain a scenario where that happens.

We'll all be arrested for murder, Steve, based on the mountain of evidence* Gary has provided to substantiate his accusation.



*  Complete in every respect, except for: identity of victim; means; motive; and any physical, eyewitness or circumstantial evidence whatsoever.  Open-and-shut case.  Might as well turn ourselves in.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
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