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  Topic: The Magic of Intelligent Design, A repost from Telic Thoughts< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,07:56   

Hi K.E.,

One of the things I point out to ID proponents is that it is always easier to stand on the sidelines throwing stones as opposed to suiting up and joining in the game.

As you are probably well aware, the typical ID proponent rarely annunciates an alternative, but focuses on criticizing the status quo.

While you may have the luxury of hiding behind status quo privilege for biology, you don't get the same luxury for quantum physics.  There is no status quo.

Would you care to enlighten us on your detailed view have how you suggest resolving the issues that have puzzled people like Einstein, Hawking and Penrose?

Or are you the official AtBC stone thrower?  :D

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,09:02   

Quote
Would you care to enlighten us on your detailed view have how you suggest resolving the issues that have puzzled people like Einstein, Hawking and Penrose?


No.

I'll let you take on that task, you seem to doing an admirable job. Or an expert.

How's Penrose's Nobel coming along? **guffaw**


   
Quote

Or are you the official AtBC stone thrower?  


....People in glass houses TP.

You freely quote Dembski who has a track record that if he was engaged in practicing medicine or accounting  would see him in Jail, I count him as having nothing positive whatsoever to say outside pure creationist apologetics .

And for no other reason than personal financial reward.

TP you must live in some sort of idyllic gated community if you can’t recognize that, or do you approve? Why do you think the establishment at Baylor won’t deal with him?

Science ultimately is a test of the individuals conscience, its history is littered with failure of a moral nature (you know what lying is don’t you?).

Since a practical material error actually improves scientific knowledge when a deliberate deception  is passed as fact then why wouldn’t that individual be disregarded as an honest witness?

Dembski to give him credit has  retreated to sell pulp fiction aka creationism and makes no bones about giving up trying to do honest science, he even wants to redefine science to his debased standards.

He doesn’t stand a chance. And neither do you if you reduce the standards of evidence to those of religion.

I really don't see the need to engage in a rhetorical skirmish with question begging nonsense which unfortunately from where I stand I can see coming like a couple of Mormons on a hot desert road at midday.

All faux smiley, sweaty and obsequious. Whose message like most things from American low Protestant culture is saccharin to the point of nausea and remarkably ambitious in its appeal to unashamed ignorance. All the while hiding their dirty little secrets. In their eyes only the elite would believe evolution in some sort of reverse Straussian world. There seems to be some deep guilt operating there.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,10:20   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Sep. 27 2007,15:39)  
Quote
Labels aren't important, ideas are.

But making predictions and testing them is far more important. Limiting yourself to retrodictions is scientific mendacity.
Quote
Thank you for your comment and thank you for providing the link.  As you pointed out, MikeGene said...
"A working hypothesis has been that the first cells (uni-cellular life forms) were front-loaded with information that would facilitate the evolution of multi-cellular life." (emphasis mine)

I'm curious--in what way is this a "working" hypothesis, if neither Mike nor you are willing to put it to work to make predictions about future observations, while falling over yourselves to claim that data from others fit the hypothesis?

That ain't science.
Quote
I have noticed MikeGene is pretty careful with his words.

I have noticed that he is pretty careful to avoid making predictions.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,10:50   

Thank you creeky belly.

I found what I was looking for. Being as I'm not an engineer or a physicist, QM for me is basically the dancing wu li (or woo eee, depending how you look at it) masters. I did read the Tao of Physics and, for all it's errors, I actually enjoyed it. I would be a quantum mysticist if I cared enough I suppose since I fit the criteria: basically mystical and thoroughly uneducated in the field.

TP,
It's all candy to me. One thing that I think k.e. spoke well about is that I am loath to give Dembski a mention in any but the most demeaning contexts. The ID movement has produced nothing but division, lies and passionate morons defending a god-given right to assault sense and sensibility in the same world I inhabit. Life is short, if I can contribute to the marginalization of people like Dembski, Ken Ham, et. al. during my stint, I will die happy.

The quantum speculation of this thread is fun though I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute. I do understand the particle/ wave problem and Heisenburg's uncertainty principle well enough to follow a conversation. My question was specific (Hmmm. maybe it had specified complexity?) and I appreciate the responses.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
creeky belly



Posts: 205
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,11:02   

Quote
And while K.E. may consider it just more "psuedoscience", here are some interesting experimental results (Ashfer Experiment).

Afshar claims that his experiment invalidates the complementarity principle and has far-reaching implications for the understanding of quantum mechanics, challenging the Copenhagen interpretation. According to John G. Cramer, Afshar's results support Cramer's own transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics and challenges the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

So what is this "transactional interpretation"?

More from Wikipedia...
Suppose a particle (such as a photon) emitted from a source could interact with one of two detectors. According to TIQM, the source emits a usual (retarded) wave forward in time, the "offer wave", and when this wave reaches the detectors, each one replies with an advanced wave, the "confirmation wave", that travels backwards in time, back to the source. The phases of offer and confirmation waves are correlated in such a way that these waves interfere positively to form a wave of the full amplitude in the space-time region between emitting and detection events, and they interfere negatively and cancel out elsewhere in space-time (i.e., before the emitting point and after the absorption point). The size of the interaction between the offer wave and a detector's confirmation wave determines the probability with which the particle will strike that detector rather than the other one. In this interpretation, the collapse of the wavefunction does not happen at any specific point in time, but is "atemporal" and occurs along the whole transaction, the region of space-time where offer and confirmation waves interact. The waves are seen as physically real, rather than a mere mathematical device to record the observer's knowledge as in some other interpretations of quantum mechanics.

John Cramer has argued that the transactional interpretation is consistent with the outcome of the Afshar experiment, while the Copenhagen interpretation and the many-worlds interpretation are not.[3]

Sound familiar?  It sounds like a different way of describing Penrose's OR interpretation.

I consider Penrose's OR to be a Copenhagen derivative, but that is just a label.

Labels aren't important, ideas are.

I have to admit this was one of the more entertaining seminars I've gone to (John Cramer is a faculty member at my university). One of my professors at the time told us about Afshar's experiment and that he would be giving a talk on campus. So imagine a room filled with experimentalists (including Afshar) and the theorists who invited him. My prof opened up the comment session by suggesting that this result isn't particularly surprising and this turned into quite a heated argument amongst the theorist (mostly Cramer) and the experimentalists. Much of the criticism came from the points brought up by the wiki page, mainly the fringe visibility and the existence of true which-way information. My feeling is that this is a fringe visibility problem, from what I've read about the experiment on arxiv.

If every quantum theory is consistent in content with Orch-OR, then why bring this up? If Orch-OR theory really doesn't require complementarity, it's a moot point. I know you like to pick up on the traditional woo words like space-time and time-travel, but take another look at Libet's experiments. Does he really say that the brain works backwards in time, or that the brain has a buffer?

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,11:11   

Well there is always backwards motion

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,11:13   

Hi K.E.,

Welcome to the playing field.

While I explained some of this before I don't mind explaining it again and expounding on it.  Because I think it is good to get this out in the open.

I don't like Dembski.

Really...

I think he is an example of the worst kind of intellectual manipulator there is.  He is trying to enable people to quit thinking about a problem and just "believe".  He says just enough to convince people that he saying something substantial but when you ask the converted to explain it, they can't.  They just believe.  To a lot of people, they are simply forced to make a choice between PhD types saying things they don't understand.

So what do you do about it?

Jumping up and down and yelling about it isn't going to convince anyone other than those who already understand the situation.

By my training and personality, I happen to be a quick learner.  I can usually get to the root cause of situations.  As an engineer, figuring out the problem gets you most of the way to a solution.

Problem - People are letting others think for them.

Solution - Provoke people to think for themselves.

Problem - People don't want to accept the Status Quo.

Solution - Provide a reasonable, thought-provoking alternative.

Problem - The 10% minority don't want to discuss alternatives.

Solution - Point out that 90% is a lot more than 10% and to the history of what has happened to troublesome intellectuals.

Unfortunately, I have to run and deal with real life.

Talk to you all later.

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,11:28   

Me missing a meme? (or three) I love me, I love my ROCKETBOOM

Rocketboom: Memes, Iran, NBC, Mars rlly

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,11:37   

Quote
He is trying to enable people to quit thinking about a problem and just "believe".


And your point is?

,This has never been a problem for religion they are just tapping into an evolutionary trait.

Billll baby is ingratiating himself into a community of persons far from his atheist roots as is preternaturally possible. The further he can travel up the sphincter of American evangelism the further he is from his bull dyke boy hating mother. Capisce?

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2007,23:55   

Hi creeky belly,

 
Quote
I have to admit this was one of the more entertaining seminars I've gone to (John Cramer is a faculty member at my university)... this turned into quite a heated argument amongst the theorist (mostly Cramer) and the experimentalists. Much of the criticism came from the points brought up by the wiki page, mainly the fringe visibility and the existence of true which-way information. My feeling is that this is a fringe visibility problem, from what I've read about the experiment on arxiv.

Sounds interesting.  Thanks for the story.
 
Quote
If every quantum theory is consistent in content with Orch-OR, then why bring this up? If Orch-OR theory really doesn't require complementarity, it's a moot point. I know you like to pick up on the traditional woo words like space-time and time-travel, but take another look at Libet's experiments. Does he really say that the brain works backwards in time, or that the brain has a buffer?

Have you figured out I am not your typical bad guy yet?  I may be a quantum quack, but I am being honest about it.  Your attempts at twisting my words isn't being honest.

I explained I see two general camps, Copenhagen and Many Worlds.  Penrose's OR is on the Copenhagen side.  Penrose OR rejects Many Worlds specifically and particles generally.  I don't suggest Penrose OR is consistent with "every quantum theory."

I also never suggested Libet said anything about time flying backwards.  Dr. Hameroff discussed retrocausal quatum effects.  Libet just supplied the experimental data point that there is a period of 500ms preceding conscious decisions.  This brings up the issue of explaining how professional tennis can be played when a half a second delay in response is too long.

BTW, did you know Libet died about a month ago?   I just read that.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,00:07   

Hi K.E.,

Have you decided whether you want me to quit posting or not?  (I'm not asking JAM because I suspect I already know his vote).

BTW, I liked the backwards motion Rocketboom.  It was clever.

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,02:08   

TP, there is another camp.  The view that particles and waves are only the appearance of matter depending upon the method of observation.  The actual structure of matter is more than the sum of the two and as yet undescribed by us.  Particles appear when the particle nature is observed and so forth.  not really of any value in this discussion but I did want to point out that it's not as cut and dried as two choices.

  
creeky belly



Posts: 205
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,02:14   

Quote
This brings up the issue of explaining how professional tennis can be played when a half a second delay in response is too long.

I didn't hear about Libet's death, but here are some thoughts. There could be many other factors that tennis players pick up on: frequency of faults, favoring down the middle versus cross court, watching opponent's body orientation and habits, looking at the racket orientation. Having played tennis myself, much of it is knowing the best place position yourself. If you're talking about raw reaction time, simply trying to react to the ball is probably not a good strategy (around 186 ms for the ball to leave the racket and reach the net on a serve).
       
Quote
Have you figured out I am not your typical bad guy yet?  I may be a quantum quack, but I am being honest about it.  Your attempts at twisting my words isn't being honest.

Except when you say things like: "Even though my theory doesn't fit the content of this other theory, it's just a labeling problem. They're really one in the same." That really gets my goad, because it smacks of equivocation. I'd be perfectly happy to accept that you think that quantum reality acts more like TIQM, and in that respect, you disagree with the Orch-OR interpretation. Or to go just one level deeper and explain exactly how Orch-OR is consistent with any interpretation of QM. You also scoffed at my questions about temperature related decoherence, which have still yet to be answered. That's all I'm looking for; some acknowledgment of your "wooery".

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,06:33   

Hi skeptic,

I agree there is a third camp.  I think of this group of people as those waiting for a better explaination.  Einstein and Schrödinger were in this camp.  The point of the EPR paradox and the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment was to point out the incompleteness of the prevaling quantum theories.

During the 1994 debate with Sir Rodger Penrose, Stephen Hawking appeared to still be in this camp.  Penrose was arguing that the EPR effect wasn't a paradox and the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment couldn't just be ignored.

I understand that Schrödinger expressed regret that he presented his thought experiment.  It became an albatross around the necks of all quantum physicists.

As an outsider with an engineering background, several pieces fit together when it is accepted that there is no such thing as solid particles and General Relativity is real.

When I see secure communication devices being build on the presumption of the reality of EPR and/or GHZ state "woo" and Berkley lab studying photosynthesis on the presumption of room-temperature quantum effects it becomes obvious that it is time to quit looking for an answer and admit you have already found it.

Of course the answer might be incomplete and will be adjusted, or even totally revamped.  We did it with Newtonian physics.  We can do it again if and when needed.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,06:45   

Hi creek belly,

When you put quotation marks around a multiple sentence quote, it is usually assumed it is an exact quotation.  Even more so when you preface it with "Except when you say things like...".

This is a case of you literally trying to put words in my mouth.  What you suggested is not what I said, it is not what I think.

If you rephrase your comment I will answer it appropriately.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,09:49   

Quote (creeky belly @ Sep. 29 2007,03:14)
           
Quote
This brings up the issue of explaining how professional tennis can be played when a half a second delay in response is too long.

I didn't hear about Libet's death, but here are some thoughts. There could be many other factors that tennis players pick up on: frequency of faults, favoring down the middle versus cross court, watching opponent's body orientation and habits, looking at the racket orientation. Having played tennis myself, much of it is knowing the best place position yourself. If you're talking about raw reaction time, simply trying to react to the ball is probably not a good strategy (around 186 ms for the ball to leave the racket and reach the net on a serve).

The 500ms data is a challenge primarily to the notion that we consciously guide behaviors - that we become conscious of a visual scene, contemplate its contents, select actions based upon what is consciously apprehended, then act. There are many lines of evidence that suggest that motor planning, even that based upon visual information, includes major elements (both cortical and subcortical) that are entirely unconscious - and unconstrained by the 500ms delay. In the instance of very rapidly executed behaviors (such as in tennis), both the sensory information upon which rapid acts are based and the the motor plans that guide the behavior become available to conscious processing only after the fact - the first as a visual experience and the second as a sense of volition. Even visual-motor behaviors that are executed quite deliberately, such as inserting a card into a slot, are guided by extensive processing of visual information that is never conscious, and that does not contribute significantly to the experienced visual scene. See, for example, Milner, D. A., & Goodale, M. A. (1996). The Visual Brain in Action. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

This is not to say that conscious processing has no role to play. Much of what goes on in tennis (and other rapid motor activities) is driven not in response to a sensory scene that represents the present, but rather by means of a multilevel model - a constantly updated model that includes representations of the anticipated scene, the player's body and possible motor actions, and even the player's understanding of the strategic circumstances within which their opponent's play is embedded. Play is guided by the anticipatory model rather than real time sensory information, which at best  enables last instant adjustments of the model for better fit.

A clear example of this is seen in hitting in major league baseball: There is usually insufficient time for a batter to determine which pitch is coming once the ball is thrown (fastball or something off speed?), so the hitter attempts to anticipate a particular pitch on the basis of strategy and "sits on it." This is a very high level activity that includes the batter's representation of a pitcher who understands he faces a batter who is attempting anticipate his next pitch, and so on. Upon anticipating a fastball in a given count, the batter initiates a subcortically executed motor plan for hitting a fastball as the pitch is delivered, using sensory information to perform last minute modifications of the plan to enable contact. If the guess is wrong there is often too little time to substitute another plan and the batter (batsman?) fans at the ball.

In short, while the 500ms data is a challenge to the ordinary notion that we are entirely conscious actors, it doesn't indicate that things are going too fast for forward causality in the nervous system to accommodate; much of what guides behavior is unconcious, while other elements are pre-processed.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,11:19   

Hi Reciprocating Bill,

Thank you for your comment.

I couldn't have done a better job myself.  I understood this prevailing opinion but people get confused when I argue both sides of an issue.

You even brought in the fast ball example.

Hopefully, you will understand how I might view this as an unnecessary contrivance if, in fact, life's awareness (consciousness) can be traced to quantum effects that are interconnected over time.

Successfully merging General Relativity with quantum physics would mean the interconnectedness spans light years (which also means it spans years).  A 500ms span is nothing by comparison.

BTW, no one has brought up causal paradox yet (killing your own ancestors).  If this is holding you back from acceptance, don't let it.  The interesting part of interconnected quantum effects is that no peeking is allowed.  No causal paradox can happen because observing the quantum effect forces the objective reduction.  Unknowable quantum information is all that can travel in time.  What we would think of as normal information can not.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,11:56   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Sep. 29 2007,11:19)
BTW, no one has brought up causal paradox yet (killing your own ancestors).  

I had the Southern version, "being your own grandad", or was that a different thread?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
creeky belly



Posts: 205
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,11:56   

Quote
When you put quotation marks around a multiple sentence quote, it is usually assumed it is an exact quotation.  Even more so when you preface it with "Except when you say things like...".

This is a case of you literally trying to put words in my mouth.  What you suggested is not what I said, it is not what I think.

If you rephrase your comment I will answer it appropriately.

Fine my comment is this: is TIQM really consistent with Orch-Or? Why? How is Orch-OR a Copenhagen interpretation? That's all I want.

 
Quote
BTW, no one has brought up causal paradox yet (killing your own ancestors).  If this is holding you back from acceptance, don't let it.  The interesting part of interconnected quantum effects is that no peeking is allowed.  No causal paradox can happen because observing the quantum effect forces the objective reduction.  Unknowable quantum information is all that can travel in time.  What we would think of as normal information can not.

I actually brought this up a few pages back (page 1) when talking about the GHZ game:
 
Quote
The GHZ game can be resolved by noting that in order to compare the states through causally separated entangled pairs (or trios) information must be exchanged which requires GR causality.

Quantum information in the GHZ game can be transferred instantaneously, but comparing the states requires the exchange of classical information, which is subject to the limits of relativity.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,12:12   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Sep. 29 2007,12:19)
Hopefully, you will understand how I might view this as an unnecessary contrivance if, in fact, life's awareness (consciousness) can be traced to quantum effects that are interconnected over time.

Successfully merging General Relativity with quantum physics would mean the interconnectedness spans light years (which also means it spans years).  A 500ms span is nothing by comparison.

By example, this does raise an issue you would want to address as you pursue these quantized speculations.

The notions I referred to in my above post are not contrivances: there is a great deal of research that puts meat on those bones, research that continues to elaborate our understanding of, among other things, the role of unconscious visual guidance of motor actions and the basis of motor actions in an entirely unconscious vocabulary of subcortical motor plans. This emerging neurocognitive model of visual-motor processing, and its relationship to more frontal, executive and representational (and hence conscious) processing is being developed apace, without resort to specifically quantum notions.

The point is that that quantum models such as yours are competing in a theoretical and experimental space that is already harvesting considerable gains. Your model would need to offer added value in the form of useful empirical predictions that successfully guide neurobiological research, predictions that can't be purchased within more conventional levels of modeling. Absent that guidance it is your model that is an unnecessary contrivance vis real empirical research, and needs to demonstrate real value where the rubber meets the road before being regarded as a serious contender.  

There are analogous difficulties for this stuff vis evolutionary biology, which isn't looking for, and isn't feeling in need of, a revolutionary new causal framework in order to grasp precambrian evolutionary events - sniping from outside biology notwithstanding.

[edit]: Can you point me to other instances of the 'fastball' being used in this way? I'd like to see them.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,12:29   

BTW, my comment above is not to say that there aren't interesting thoughts afoot regarding the relationship of consciousness to the stuff of physics, including quantum physics. However, the "hard problem" is so far from solution that virtually all contenders are philosophical/metaphysical in nature. I'm reading the very interesting Consciousness and its Place in Nature by Galen Strawson, who with a straight face and a lot of sensible logic argues for panpsychism. Included in the volume are a number of critical essays instructing Dr. Strawon (often quite convincingly) why his notion is appealing, but nonsensical (Colin McGuinn opens his essay by stating "I find myself in agreement with almost all of Galen's paper - except, that is, for his three main claims.") I haven yet reached Strawson's 100 page reply to his critics. The dialog is collegial and bracing.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,12:35   

Hi Richardthughes,

I apologize if I missed that.

If it was in the other thread I wouldn't be surprised.  It was somewhat disorganized.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,12:42   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Sep. 29 2007,11:19)
Hopefully, you will understand how I might view this as an unnecessary contrivance if, in fact, life's awareness (consciousness) can be traced to quantum effects that are interconnected over time.

No one who is interested in real science would blow off massive amounts of data as an "unnecessary contrivance" when he has nothing but a house-of-cards hypothesis.

Whatever happened to "Let's do science," TP?

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,13:45   

Hi Creeky Belly,

You asked...
Quote
is TIQM really consistent with Orch-Or? Why? How is Orch-OR a Copenhagen interpretation? That's all I want.


I consider Penrose's OR to be a Copenhagen derivitative because Penrose's "Objective Reduction" serves the same purpose as Copenhagen's "Waveform Collapse" and is generally the same thing.  However, while Copenhagen left fuzzy the possibility that the waveform of an object collapsed into an actual particleform of the object.  That was fine for photons and, possibly, electrons.  But for 60 atom molecules (Bucky Balls) it became too much of a stretch for getting matter from non-matter.

It became apparent that objective reality is either a particle or a wave, not both.  Copenhagen approach continued with the waveform.  Penrose renamed the collapse to a Objective Reduction to indicate decoherence is the reduction of the wavefunction to an objective measurement/observation or quantum gravitational collapse.

Wikipeadia says
"[Penrose Interpretation] is a variety of objective collapse theory."
and says this about the Objective Collapse Theory

Collapse theories stand in opposition to many-world theories, in that they hold that a process of wavefunction collapse curtails the branching of the wavefunction and removes unobserved behaviour. Objective collapse theories differ from the Copenhagen interpretation in regarding both the wavefunction and the process of collapse as ontologically objective. The Copenhagen interpretation includes collapse, but it is non-committal about the objective reality of the wave function, and because of that it is possible to regard Copenhagen-style collapse as a subjective or informational phenomenon. In objective theories, there is an ontologically real wave of some sort corresponding to the mathematical wave function, and collapse occurs randomly ("spontaneous localization"), or when some physical threshold is reached, with observers having no special role.

Which is essentially what I said.  I will turn the question around.  Why do you think the Penrose OR Interpretation is NOT an Copenhagen derivative?

The Orch OR takes OR and adds the implication of consciousness.  TIQM  is not equivalent to Orch OR.  However, TIQM is similar the basic Penrose quantum interpretation (just "OR"), IMO.

I reskimmed through John G. Cramer's description of TIQM

It looks like the main the elements I need for the Third Choice are here.  John G. Cramer is saying quantum effects are interconnection through space and time.  DNA and microtubules can be interconnected quantum computers just as easily under TIQM as under Penrose's OR.  It looks like TIQM doesn't have a decoherence timeout like Penrose's OR.

From the link...
"The TI avoids the conceptual problems implicit in this experiment by eliminating any SV collapse which occurs at some definite instant... Instead it employs an atemporal four-space description implicit in the transaction model..."

It looks like TIQM will allow things to remain in superposition as long as necessary.

I understand Penrose's OR interpretation better.  If you want to think of things in TIQM terms, you will have to explain to me the fundamental differences you see that invalidates what I have been saying.

P.S.  Time for real life again.  I will get back later.

  
creeky belly



Posts: 205
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2007,14:26   

Quote
Which is essentially what I said.  I will turn the question around.  Why do you think the Penrose OR Interpretation is NOT an Copenhagen derivative?

The Orch OR takes OR and adds the implication of consciousness.  TIQM  is not equivalent to Orch OR.  However, TIQM is similar the basic Penrose quantum interpretation (just "OR"), IMO.

That answers my question; I don't dispute that OR is Copenhagen, but it seems to me that Copenhagen and TIQM interpret the reality of the wavefunction and the role of the observer much differently. From Cramer's page, they agree on most of the interpretations up until then (commuting observables, etc.).
   
Quote
I consider Penrose's OR to be a Copenhagen derivitative because Penrose's "Objective Reduction" serves the same purpose as Copenhagen's "Waveform Collapse" and is generally the same thing.  However, while Copenhagen left fuzzy the possibility that the waveform of an object collapsed into an actual particleform of the object. That was fine for photons and, possibly, electrons.  But for 60 atom molecules (Bucky Balls) it became too much of a stretch for getting matter from non-matter.

I don't think it's a stretch, considering that the deBroglie wavelength (the molecular mass is about 750 amu or 1.25e-24 kg) is still on the order of the size of the molecule. If the slit widths were proper, I'd expect it to exhibit interference.
   
Quote
It looks like the main the elements I need for the Third Choice are here.  John G. Cramer is saying quantum effects are interconnection through space and time.  DNA and microtubules can be interconnected quantum computers just as easily under TIQM as under Penrose's OR.  It looks like TIQM doesn't have a decoherence timeout like Penrose's OR.

If you take one step beyond Cramer's theory, and do some experiments, you know that you will get a decoherence time-out. You can fire up an NMR experiment and couple different atoms within C60 or an organic molecule; they will decohere like everything else.
   
Quote
From the link...
"The TI avoids the conceptual problems implicit in this experiment by eliminating any SV collapse which occurs at some definite instant... Instead it employs an atemporal four-space description implicit in the transaction model..."

It looks like TIQM will allow things to remain in superposition as long as necessary.

I understand Penrose's OR interpretation better.  If you want to think of things in TIQM terms, you will have to explain to me the fundamental differences you see that invalidates what I have been saying.

But we know things don't stay coherent "as long as necessary", that would pretty much invalidate NMR and statistical mechanics. It would really be interesting if they could find something analogous to quantum error correction in tubulins, I think that would seal it for me. Unfortunately, this all looks great on paper, but I'd rather see some experiments.

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2007,08:18   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 29 2007,20:42)
 
Quote (Thought Provoker @ Sep. 29 2007,11:19)
Hopefully, you will understand how I might view this as an unnecessary contrivance if, in fact, life's awareness (consciousness) can be traced to quantum effects that are interconnected over time.

No one who is interested in real science would blow off massive amounts of data as an "unnecessary contrivance" when he has nothing but a house-of-cards hypothesis.

Whatever happened to "Let's do science," TP?

...I was skipping stones and I had a thought...I had to lie down.

I think he considers that changing the subject .....is an equivalent to 'real science'.

With a Smörgåsbord of Quantum Queerness to choose from the Chef is cooking the menu itself not the ingredients. He's borked a few items like Dembski however his stash includes both real and imaginary quants.

Since real life interrupted, maybe he took his own threat seriously and rode off into the sunset like said he would (cue Morricone's theme to The Good The Bad and The Ugly).

But since a quantum computer the size of a human brain could out calculate any imaginable god why is it that Deep Blue could beat Kasparov at chess? .....And since he is an owner of a massive quantum one, prevented Penrose from winning a Noble Prize?

I dunno on a scale of one to !! TP certainly eat’s shoot’s and leave's.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2007,09:11   

Hi Creeky Belly,

I gave some thought into how to stimulate more interesting conversation in this thread but I am running out of ideas.

I think you and I are getting close to understanding each other's position.  If you have any more ideas for discussion, let me know.

Meanwhile, I will discuss a few loose ends.

You wrote...
Quote
But we know things don't stay coherent "as long as necessary", that would pretty much invalidate NMR and statistical mechanics.


It is my opinion that we live in a universe were if something can happen, it does.  When I was learning about Maxwell's equations I could understand, and calculate, how a collapsing magnetic field creates an electrical field and how a collapsing electrical field creates a magnetic field.  It all made sense except for one thing, how and why did it start?

This wasn't a religious "why" (at least I wasn't thinking in those terms).  This was an engineering/scientific "why".  The only answer that made sense to me was, because it can.  In the 30+ years since then, I haven't come up with a better answer.

Therefore, when you present a quantum explaination that doesn't absolutely force quick decoherence (e.g. TIQM) I am going to presume long-term decoherence can, and does, happen.  It may be rare.  It may require very special conditions.  But nature will find a way.

Did you know they discovered laser light on Mars?


Quote
It would really be interesting if they could find something analogous to quantum error correction in tubulins, I think that would seal it for me.


The RecA protein is directly involved in finding and fixing errors in DNA.  RecA protein has the same physical structure as microtubules.

Quote
Unfortunately, this all looks great on paper, but I'd rather see some experiments.


There is the
Berkeley Lab experiments we discussed previously.

There is also the experimental work behind Patel's
Quantum Algorithms and the Genetic Code. Which we have also discussed recently.

Here is an experiment ran specifically in relation to the Penrose-Hameroff hypothesis.
In recent times the interest for quantum models of brain activity has rapidly grown. The Penrose-Hameroff model assumes that microtubules inside neurons are responsible for quantum computation inside brain. Several experiments seem to indicate that EPR-like correlations are possible at the biological level. In the past year , a very intensive experimental work about this subject has been done at DiBit Labs in Milan, Italy by our research group. Our experimental set-up is made by two separated and completely shielded basins where two parts of a common human DNA neuronal culture are monitored by EEG. Our main experimental result is that, under stimulation of one culture by means of a 630 nm laser beam at 300 ms, the cross-correlation between the two cultures grows up at maximum levels. Despite at this level of understanding it is impossible to tell if the origin of this non-locality is a genuine quantum effect, our experimental data seem to strongly suggest that biological systems present non-local properties not explainable by classical models.

Experiments are being performed, they will continue to be performed.  As you know, science is a continuing process.  Even if essentially correct, the Orch OR model will be incomplete and, therefore, inaccurate.  Even if it gains acceptance, it won't be universal.  People will continue to challenge it.  Some might even suggest it is too conservative and doesn't go far enough.

I understand this is the way of science.  I suspect other ID proponents can only wish they had the amount of scientific support for their ideas as Orch OR has (meager as it is).

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2007,09:20   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 29 2007,13:12)
Quote (Thought Provoker @ Sep. 29 2007,12:19)
Hopefully, you will understand how I might view this as an unnecessary contrivance if, in fact, life's awareness (consciousness) can be traced to quantum effects that are interconnected over time.

Successfully merging General Relativity with quantum physics would mean the interconnectedness spans light years (which also means it spans years).  A 500ms span is nothing by comparison.

By example, this does raise an issue you would want to address as you pursue these quantized speculations.

The notions I referred to in my above post are not contrivances: there is a great deal of research that puts meat on those bones, research that continues to elaborate our understanding of, among other things, the role of unconscious visual guidance of motor actions and the basis of motor actions in an entirely unconscious vocabulary of subcortical motor plans. This emerging neurocognitive model of visual-motor processing, and its relationship to more frontal, executive and representational (and hence conscious) processing is being developed apace, without resort to specifically quantum notions.

The point is that that quantum models such as yours are competing in a theoretical and experimental space that is already harvesting considerable gains. Your model would need to offer added value in the form of useful empirical predictions that successfully guide neurobiological research, predictions that can't be purchased within more conventional levels of modeling. Absent that guidance it is your model that is an unnecessary contrivance vis real empirical research, and needs to demonstrate real value where the rubber meets the road before being regarded as a serious contender.  

There are analogous difficulties for this stuff vis evolutionary biology, which isn't looking for, and isn't feeling in need of, a revolutionary new causal framework in order to grasp precambrian evolutionary events - sniping from outside biology notwithstanding.

[edit]: Can you point me to other instances of the 'fastball' being used in this way? I'd like to see them.

ThoPro - Before you go, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the quoted post, above.  Including my request vis the fastball.

Thanks...

RB

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2007,09:39   

Quote
Quantum Algorithms and the Genetic Code. Which we have also discussed recently.


Except 'we' didn't discuss it.

I'm not going to dig back through to see which poster raised some very large questions about that 'paper' which has all the hall marks of crank science.

AND REPEAT THE QUESTION YOU NEVER ANSWERED.

It must be nice to be you TP you have a slightly more urbane AFDAVE dreamcoat.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2007,09:49   

Hi K.E.,

And good morning to you too.

You wrote...
Quote
With a Smörgåsbord of Quantum Queerness to choose from the Chef is cooking the menu itself not the ingredients. He's borked a few items like Dembski however his stash includes both real and imaginary quants.

Since real life interrupted, maybe he took his own threat seriously and rode off into the sunset like said he would (cue Morricone's theme to The Good The Bad and The Ugly).

But since a quantum computer the size of a human brain could out calculate any imaginable god why is it that Deep Blue could beat Kasparov at chess? .....And since he is an owner of a massive quantum one, prevented Penrose from winning a Noble Prize?


I can't argue too much that I have acted like an engineer in my attempt to piece together a consistent story.  The invention makes for a nice conversation piece, don't you think?

I am partial to the sunset exit scene in High Plains Drifter myself (it was foreshadowed and consistent that he disappear right before our eyes).

One might suspect you set this next point up for me, since Penrose made a big point about how Deep Blue played chess was evidence AGAINST a presumption of Strong AI.

Deep Blue can beat humans when the chess problem is algorithmic.  But when it comes to chess problem the requires noticing a non-algorithmic pattern, the average human beats Deep Blue.  Here is a link to the chess problem.

Humans can see the wall of pawns.  Humans can see that they are safe as long as the wall is intact.  Humans would know that a draw was the best they could hope for.  Humans would know not to break the wall of pawns for any reason.

Deep Blue didn't see that.

Deep Blue took the "free" rook with his pawn.

Neither Steve Hawking nor Sir Rodger Penrose have received Nobel Prizes for their work.  It appears that the Nobel Prize committee isn't impressed with non-algorithmic thinking.  Most people know Hawking and Penrose correctly figured out that Black Holes exist, but it was based on if-it-can-happen-it-does-happen mathematical modeling.  Some people automatically dismiss such things as "woo".

  
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