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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Hints and Allegations

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Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,14:30    Quote (Patrick @ Aug. 16 2013,14:27) Quote (Driver @ Aug. 16 2013,05:19) Whenever it comes to any other type of assault, people's first response is not to speculate on what the victim might have done to facilitate the attack. Think about that. We don't do this for any other crime, I don't think, let alone assault. There are public service announcements here on the east coast warning people not to leave their cars unlocked or the keys in them. When my teenagers go into the city, both their mother and I give them (no doubt too long) lectures about how to take responsibility for their own safety. This is not specific to any particular type of crime. You have not responded to the point I made. Read it again. Quote Quote Myers' source is not hearsay, this is corroborated testimony by women he knows personally. Now you can argue that to us it is hearsay, but... really? PZ Myers is making it up? Do you really believe that? There's no way of knowing that. There are plenty of ways of weighing it up. Please tell me what you think PZ Myers will gain. Bear in mind that the reaction to his actions is largely negative, even hostile, and that he would have been aware of this. Please also tell me when you have ever come across PZ Myers fabricating quotes. Quote  Some of the material quoted in the cease and desist letter suggests that Myers got the information from a friend-of-a-friend, other statements suggest it was from someone he knows personally.  In either case it is hearsay. The cease and desist letter is wrong, unless you now think both PZ Myers and Carrie are lying. Quote And while I don't believe that Myers is necessarily making it up out of whole cloth, nothing in his behavior over the past few years suggests to me that he can be trusted not to respond with hyperbole. So you are saying you think it possible that PZ altered the testimony? Seriously? Please give me an example where he has done this before. Quote   Quote This is not completely news about Shermer, btw, and I see no reason to be skeptical about a woman's corroborated claim that she was raped. Most accounts of rape are not lies. You are treading dangerously close to libel yourself here.  The issue isn't about "most accounts of rape", it's about posting anonymous defamatory claims in a public forum. What you think the issue is is noted. You are still implying that PZ may have altered the woman's testimony, and that the woman may not exist or is not credible.   Quote Quote Myers' decision was not about court standards of evidence and conviction, but about warning women to avoid a man who already had some reputation amongst quite a few skeptic conference-attending women as a predator, operating in a world where we have good evidence that a microculture of assault (including rape) and rape apology already exists. See Karen Stollznow and Ashley Paramore. Leaving aside whether or not skeptic conferences are more or less safe for women than any other venue, the fact that Myers blog isn't a court of law does not excuse his behavior.  If Shermer really did what was claimed, I'll volunteer to help nail his testicles to a wall.  Until that's proven, though, anonymous hearsay is defamatory libel. The amount of respect arguments conflating the law with "the right thing to do" deserve is zero. Especially in the case of rape. Also, the woman is not anonymous to PZ Myers nor is her testimony hearsay. Unless you are saying that PZ made it up or altered her testimony. It might have been hoped that skeptic '-cons' were better than other '-cons', but they plainly are not. "They are doing it too" is of course no excuse. Harassment at '-cons' is a big problem. Organizations failing to deal with harassment is a big problem. That the American skeptics are not any better is not something to leave aside.  The evidence of harassment within the skeptic movement is directly relevant to assessment of the rape claim. Quote Do you really want to live under a justice system that allows anyone to be subject to these potentially life-destroying accusations, without evidence or recourse? Shermer has recourse, and as PZ Myers surely knew when he posted, Shermer will probably win any libel suit. As for Shermer's life being destroyed... I doubt it. It's not Shermer who will get less cushy speaking jobs at conferences. There is evidence. There is testimony as to Shermer's conduct, and not all of it is anonymous either. How about living in the world we actually live in, Patrick? Where at least 1 in 6 women experience sexual assault in their lives. Where if a woman is raped, in whatever country in the world, she will have a hard time getting her peers, let alone the police and courts, to believe her? Where the public response to rape is "what did she do to allow it to happen?" and "what about the lives of the perpetrators?" Where first-hand testimony of rape (corroborated by more than one person), and multiple lines of evidence, are automatically dismissed as "no evidence" or "hearsay". Where hardly anyone expresses sympathy for the victims. At best there is 'if this is true, the accused should be castrated.' Where the lives deeply affected are far more often the lives of women raped than the lives of accused. Where if we tell of a man who goes out to a bar and gets drunk and then is followed home and assaulted for his wallet, the overwhelming reaction is condemnation of the assailant not "men shouldn't go out to pubs and get blind drunk" or "I don't believe it happened". Of course, because it is fucking ridiculous to be hyperskeptical about someone getting assaulted. However, the same people, good people too, react to testimony of rape with victim blaming and denial. How about living in a world of rape culture, institutionalized and deeply ingrained in even some of the most enlightened? I wonder what that would be like? -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,14:49    Quote (Patrick @ Aug. 16 2013,14:30) Quote (Driver @ Aug. 16 2013,05:31) You know what is most wrong about this "if only she had not done X" stuff? It helps perpetuate the perception that women can always avoid rape if they are "sensible". This is patent bullshit. It's a good thing no one that I've seen in this discussion is saying that, then. Brian Dalton did exactly that. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,14:55    Driver, everything you said is true. However, nothing you said is evidence.   Did PZ make this up?  I don't know.  You don't know.  He may not even know (he may be being duped).  That's the problem... no one knows. Do these people exist?  I don't know.  You don't know.  PZ may not even know (from a friend of a friend). What we do know is that PZ excels as a shock-jock.  Without any corroborating evidence, I find it difficult to trust him.  I will say that I find it curious that this happens right before his book is due to be released.  I just find it curious... I really hope that he wouldn't stoop to this level to garner blog hits and some media attention.  And this also does what PZ wants to happen, that is a divide in the atheism/skepticism community.  I'm willing to bet large sums of money that anyone who supports Shermer... or at least doesn't immediately support PZs position... will be cast as a 'rape apologist'. An accusation of rape is serious.  Florida has life imprisonment for rape.  Making an accusation like that is not helping the victim in any way. He could have easily said, "Shermer is a slime ball.  I don't trust him. I don't think any of you should trust him. And I don't think anyone should go to a conference where he is in attendance."  And then taken this claim to the authorities. A lot of people I am reading are saying, "But the authorities don't do anything."  And "it's all blame the victim."   None of which means that PZ gets to be judge, jury, and prosecuting attorney.  None of which means going to the authorities is still what should be done. Like I said, I agree with all that you have said.  That's not the issue.  The issue here is that PZ has done something dramatically stupid and just plain wrong.  This tactic will not help the girl, you say it won't hurt Shermer, it will get PZ lots of attention, and none of it will do a darn thing if Shermer is raping people at cons. The only thing that will prevent that is to get a judge and jury enough evidence to put Shermer behind bars.  To do that, will require lots of pain and suffering from the victim and it will suck and it's not fair to them.  But we don't have any other way of doing it.  Well, there's this thing that PZ did... I'm not saying that lots of women haven't been raped.  It's true.  There are also cases where no sexual contact occurred and the woman still cried rape and put a man in jail for years.  There are cases where a woman said 'yes', but later regretted it and claimed rape. Is that what's going on here?  I don't know.  No one knows.   We, as a culture, do have to do a better job in investigation of these claims.  We have to, as Patrick said, educate women AND men about these things.  We have to quit blaming the victim. But we also have to get to the truth of the matter. And yes, sexual assault is treated very differently.  Because it's the only one that can be consensual until after the fact. I guess you could choose to get beat up and then file assault charges... Anyway.  Take that as you will.  I'm open to logical arguments and discussion. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,15:14    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 16 2013,14:50) If PZ had said "Shermer is a murderer", then people would have laughed it off... demanded to see evidence... then ignored it when none was forthcoming. They are not equivalent for many reasons, the most tangible of which is that rape is 2 to 3 orders of magnitude more common than murder in the USA. What evidence do you demand to see to confirm to your satisfaction that people have been raped at American skeptic -cons? But, bad analogy as it is, let's go with it: What if John published a testimony of Harry trying to murder someone, in an environment where several murders have been reported, Harry has a reputation for aggression, and several other people have said that Harry tried to assault or even kill them? Would people laugh it off then? -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,15:37    Quote What you are saying is that men can party but women can't. I don't recall giving men a pass. I can hold two concepts to be true at the same time. People who take advantage of the vulnerable are despicable and worthy of shunning. People who voluntarily make themselves vulnerable in situations that are well known and well understood by adults cannot get full sympathy from me. I despise salesmen who take advantage of the elderly and mentally handicapped, but if people want to be treated as adults, they need to accept responsibility for self protection. I come from this from my training in special education. From that I learned that people who claim victimhood in these situations will never be accepted as adults. It's a tough lesson and a tough world, but it's the world we live in. In Streetcar Named Desire, Blanche DuBois says: Quote Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers. It's not terribly surprising that she gets raped. One does not have to agree with or like predators to believe that adult human beings need to take care of themselves and not expect the world to protect them like children. For heaven's sake, good children's literature teaches that children can't depend on the kindness of adults, not even adults charged with your care. But to trust an alpha male celebrity? Give me a break. A false dichotomy has been raised. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,15:54    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 16 2013,20:55) Driver, everything you said is true. However, nothing you said is evidence.   Did PZ make this up?  I don't know.  You don't know.  He may not even know (he may be being duped).  That's the problem... no one knows. Nothing *I* said is evidence. However, evidence exists. Quote Do these people exist?  I don't know.  You don't know.  PZ may not even know (from a friend of a friend). PZ says he knows the woman, who contacted him directly. Quote I will say that I find it curious that this happens right before his book is due to be released. Riiiight. It's not that people would email him when all this shit started coming to light, but rather that PZ jumped on the 'rape in the American skeptic movement' bandwagon. His master plan is to alienate the majority of American atheists. Quote  And this also does what PZ wants to happen, that is a divide in the atheism/skepticism community. Oh please. PZ wants a divide? There is a divide. A 15 year old posts a picture on Reddit and gets hundreds of rape comments. Reddit is a cesspool. The Slymepit... exists. Rebecca Watson gets thousands of abusive tweets and emails for saying "guys don't do that." Women have left the skeptic and atheist movements. Atheism Plus... exists, because some people could not tolerate the sexism and other phobic behaviour in atheist forums. Sexual harassment at atheist and sexism -cons is a big problem. Despite the ridiculous narrative, NONE of this is down to PZ Myers. Quote An accusation of rape is serious.  Florida has life imprisonment for rape.  Making an accusation like that is not helping the victim in any way. The victim asked PZ to publish it to warn women. Quote He could have easily said, "Shermer is a slime ball.  I don't trust him. I don't think any of you should trust him. And I don't think anyone should go to a conference where he is in attendance."  And then taken this claim to the authorities. Yeah, about that "taking it to the authorities". Catch up then get back to me. Quote None of which means that PZ gets to be judge, jury, and prosecuting attorney. Agreed, but irrelevant. PZ published a testimony, not held a court hearing. Quote  none of it will do a darn thing if Shermer is raping people at cons. It's an alert. It should make some difference. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,15:58    Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 16 2013,21:37) In Streetcar Named Desire, Blanche DuBois says:   Quote Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers. It's not terribly surprising that she gets raped. The saddest thing is you are not even aware what you are doing here. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,16:01    Actually, it makes it worse that it's "believable," because people might believe it.  Larry Flint got away with saying that Jerry Falwell had sex with his mom in an outhouse (something like that) because it was such a preposterous lie that no one would believe it. You don't get to just make accusations against people without having credible evidence to back it up.  If PZ has anything like that, we most certainly haven't seen it, and his original account makes it sound like third-hand knowledge at best. The fact is that you don't publish that William Kennedy Smith is a rapist, even though we have first-hand testimony (not hearsay) of the alleged rape (the trial was televised)--because he was never convicted.  That's how responsible journalists act, unlike yellow journalists and tabloid trash.   Responsible journalists will write about allegations and charges when they're formally made, typically not before.  And then they give the "other side" a chance to respond.  PZ simply accuses without providing credible evidence. Glen Davidson -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,16:10    Obviously all this should be moved, but I hope it can be moved to its own thread rather than the Bathroom Wall. Even though it is OT for the forum, it is an important topic. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,17:03    Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 16 2013,22:01) Actually, it makes it worse that it's "believable," because people might believe it.  Larry Flint got away with saying that Jerry Falwell had sex with his mom in an outhouse (something like that) because it was such a preposterous lie that no one would believe it. You don't get to just make accusations against people without having credible evidence to back it up.  If PZ has anything like that, we most certainly haven't seen it, and his original account makes it sound like third-hand knowledge at best. The fact is that you don't publish that William Kennedy Smith is a rapist, even though we have first-hand testimony (not hearsay) of the alleged rape (the trial was televised)--because he was never convicted.  That's how responsible journalists act, unlike yellow journalists and tabloid trash.   Responsible journalists will write about allegations and charges when they're formally made, typically not before.  And then they give the "other side" a chance to respond.  PZ simply accuses without providing credible evidence. Glen Davidson Glen, if you think FTB ethics should be dictated by the ethics/practical considerations of American broadsheets, you are in for many jolts and disappointments if you continue to read the posts there. I'm sure Myers would publish any response from Shermer, if his legal counsel allowed it. You are one more person asserting that the testimonies as to Shermer's behaviour are not credible evidence. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,17:30    Quote (Driver @ Aug. 16 2013,17:03)   Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 16 2013,22:01) Actually, it makes it worse that it's "believable," because people might believe it.  Larry Flint got away with saying that Jerry Falwell had sex with his mom in an outhouse (something like that) because it was such a preposterous lie that no one would believe it. You don't get to just make accusations against people without having credible evidence to back it up.  If PZ has anything like that, we most certainly haven't seen it, and his original account makes it sound like third-hand knowledge at best. The fact is that you don't publish that William Kennedy Smith is a rapist, even though we have first-hand testimony (not hearsay) of the alleged rape (the trial was televised)--because he was never convicted.  That's how responsible journalists act, unlike yellow journalists and tabloid trash.   Responsible journalists will write about allegations and charges when they're formally made, typically not before.  And then they give the "other side" a chance to respond.  PZ simply accuses without providing credible evidence. Glen Davidson Quote Glen, if you think FTB ethics should be dictated by the ethics/practical considerations of American broadsheets, you are in for many jolts and disappointments if you continue to read the posts there. Your sentence is illogically constructed, since the mere fact that you and many other FTBers practice scurrilous rumor-mongering has nothing to do with what I "think" should be done.  I am not surprised that many people think that they are above law and decency. Worse, it is a rather disingenuous claim, that I should think FTB ethics ought to be dictated by the broadsheets.  I'm talking about following the law, rather than not giving a whit about being decent.  Examples were given of journalists who don't act as defamers, not as who should set the ethics.   Quote I'm sure Myers would publish any response from Shermer, if his legal counsel allowed it. I am not sure of it, nor do I care about his printing something after first writing an unsupported accusation.   Quote You are one more person asserting that the testimonies as to Shermer's behaviour are not credible evidence. No, you're just making up lies as you go along.  The point isn't whether or not a person of whom we lack even the identity is or is not credible, the point is that we can hardly know whether or not she is because all we have is hearsay.  If you and the rest would quit lying about what we say and think, you might for once actually begin to understand our position.  So long as you fabricate our positions and shoot those down, you simply practice more scurrility. Glen Davidson -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,19:01    Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 16 2013,23:30) I'm talking about following the law, rather than not giving a whit about being decent. Since the law and the process of law tend to uphold the status quo, and demonstrably so in the case of rape, your point may be of value to conservatives, but not so much to those seeking social justice. Quote   Quote You are one more person asserting that the testimonies as to Shermer's behaviour are not credible evidence. No, you're just making up lies as you go along.  The point isn't whether or not a person of whom we lack even the identity is or is not credible, the point is that we can hardly know whether or not she is because all we have is hearsay. No we do not only have hearsay. Testimony IS evidence. To dismiss even the anonymous testimony requires an assertion that PZ Myers may have made it up, and also ignores the corroboration of the testimony. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,19:16    Quote (Driver @ Aug. 16 2013,19:01)       Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 16 2013,23:30) I'm talking about following the law, rather than not giving a whit about being decent. Since the law and the process of law tend to uphold the status quo, and demonstrably so in the case of rape, Evidence?   No, you've given up any pretense to dealing honestly with evidence.         Quote your point may be of value to conservatives, but not so much to those seeking social justice. I know the SJW prattle, parrot.  Make a case or STFU. I really don't need to hear about how wonderful all of you socially aware bigots are.  You would never allow yourselves to fall due to unsupported accusations, but you think that you're the particular elites whose word should be law.     Quote     Quote         Quote You are one more person asserting that the testimonies as to Shermer's behaviour are not credible evidence. No, you're just making up lies as you go along.  The point isn't whether or not a person of whom we lack even the identity is or is not credible, the point is that we can hardly know whether or not she is because all we have is hearsay. No we do not only have hearsay. I didn't see evidence beyond hearsay, although it's pretty clear that evidence and honesty aren't troubling your "objectivity."       Quote Testimony IS evidence. Oh my God, really?   You're a real expert in these matters, I can see.  You know that testimony is evidence.  Something that wasn't in contention, illiterate wonder.       Quote To dismiss even the anonymous testimony requires an assertion that PZ Myers may have made it up, Another insipid lie.  Clearly there are any number of scenarios that are possible, that Myers made it up, that the woman purportedly making the charge made it up, that someone seriously misunderstands what constitutes rape, and presumably others.  We don't know what the case is because we only have an anonymous charge, a problem that one illiterate chowderhead seems not to recognize as any sort of difficulty for bringing up what are, in consequence, unsubstantiated rumors.       Quote and also ignores the corroboration of the testimony. And just how stupid would I have to be to accept anonymous corroboration of an anonymous claim?  As stupid as your whole "case." Glen Davidson -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,22:00    Glen, Quote I didn't see evidence beyond hearsay If you mean "information not substantiated", there are several sources. If you mean "report of another's words by a witness", then you didn't look properly. Quote Clearly there are any number of scenarios that are possible, that Myers made it up, that the woman purportedly making the charge made it up, that someone seriously misunderstands what constitutes rape, and presumably others. Yes, but to put my reply in context again, to dismiss the anonymous testimony as hearsay requires an assertion that PZ Myers may have made it up. Quote illiterate Sorry, did I make a typo? Some unforgivable grammar error? Quote And just how stupid would I have to be to accept anonymous corroboration of an anonymous claim? You would just have to accept that PZ Myers had no good reason to lie. Anyhow, the reports are not all anonymous. You didn't look properly. Thanks for all the additional material in your last post, Glen. You clearly like to decorate your meat with lots of salad. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,22:28    [quote=Driver,Aug. 16 2013,22:00][/quote]   Quote Glen,     Quote I didn't see evidence beyond hearsay If you mean "information not substantiated", there are several sources. If you mean "report of another's words by a witness", then you didn't look properly. Why would I be referring to the shifted goalposts of an echo chamber?  Do you think that I care as little about truth and justice as you do? I mean testimony that can be checked out, at least something at the investigatory phase.  Not you trusting your demi-god PZ.   Quote     Quote Clearly there are any number of scenarios that are possible, that Myers made it up, that the woman purportedly making the charge made it up, that someone seriously misunderstands what constitutes rape, and presumably others. Yes, but to put my reply in context again, to dismiss the anonymous testimony as hearsay requires an assertion that PZ Myers may have made it up. Well, gee, I wonder if any court would accept that PZ is beyond question and any possibility of reproach.  Because, heaven forbid that we should even question anything PZ says.   And I don't even care about your specific concern that the holy rumor-monger PZ might or might not make something up, because we're not in any sort of position to find out  what did occur.   Quote     Quote illiterate Sorry, did I make a typo? Some unforgivable grammar error? No, you don't read properly, assuming that you're not always lying with your endless errors and goalpost moves.   Quote     Quote And just how stupid would I have to be to accept anonymous corroboration of an anonymous claim? You would just have to accept that PZ Myers had no good reason to lie. Again with the idiot-level reading.  That's not the only possibility, and I don't trust the self-righteous PZ any more than I do you.   Quote Anyhow, the reports are not all anonymous. You didn't look properly. We're talking about  a single charge, mangler of truth.  I'm not biting at the bait of your dishonest shift to other issues.   Quote Thanks for all the additional material in your last post, Glen. You clearly like to decorate your meat with lots of salad. Here's a thought:  Respond by making up the near-total lacunae of both evidence and clear thought in your sucking up to your favorite alpha male working for his and your petty bourgeois privilege, instead of making more baseless charges.  If you could make a case, you would, but instead you parrot your slogans and your inability to contemplate that anyone could ever question your vindictive shock-jock, PZM. Glen Davidson -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,23:03    Aren't the authorities and courts not public fora the right venues for this? I do understand that victims may feel it traumatic, but "telling PZ" will only likely prolong things and it will end in the courts anyway? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,23:43    Glen, Quote Well, gee, I wonder if any court would accept that PZ is beyond question and any possibility of reproach. It appears that your demi-god is the law, since you can't shake leaning on that authority. Anyhow, I did not say that PZ is "beyond possibility of reproach". I said give me a good reason why he would lie. Quote we're not in any sort of position to find out  what did occur. On the contrary, there are multiple lines of evidence by which we can provisionally believe what is, all things considered, an unexceptional claim. In the "debate" between Oxfordians and Stratfordians, we could say that we are not in any position to find out what really occurred, but that one requires acceptance of some sources and commonplaces, and the other is a conspiracy theory with no evidence for it whatsoever. Your hyperskepticism also amounts to giving credence to a conspiracy theory for which no evidence is presented. Quote     Quote       Quote illiterate Sorry, did I make a typo? Some unforgivable grammar error? No, you don't read properly, assuming that you're not always lying with your endless errors and goalpost moves. Ah, the insult you are looking for is "semi-literate". Also has a nice double meaning. Glad to be of help. Quote I'm not biting at the bait of your dishonest shift to other issues. I am talking about Shermer. There are several sources as to his conduct. Besides which, the climate is rather relevant. Quote     Quote Thanks for all the additional material in your last post, Glen. You clearly like to decorate your meat with lots of salad. Here's - more salad. Rich, The case was reported to an organization already, who were apparently not helpful. No-one is trying to get Shermer convicted. You are aware that very few rapists are convicted, US or UK? -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,23:57    I'm not trying to stir the pot, and if true it is horrendous, but reporting it to an organization isn't the same as reporting it to the police. I can imagine doing that may be emotionally very hard so I can understand why it may not happen, along with stigmatization, but I do know the efficacy of the police (as low as it may be) is more than that of conference organizers or blog writers. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2013,23:57    Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 17 2013,01:16) Quote (Driver @ Aug. 16 2013,19:01)         Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 16 2013,23:30) I'm talking about following the law, rather than not giving a whit about being decent. Since the law and the process of law tend to uphold the status quo, and demonstrably so in the case of rape, Evidence?   This is just history denial. I thought we might be able to take it as a given that feminists and other civil rights advocates have usually had a point. I found this article for you: http://moourl.com/9uiur......r....ur By all means, do tell me how it is all fixed now. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,00:03    Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 17 2013,05:57) I'm not trying to stir the pot, and if true it is horrendous, but reporting it to an organization isn't the same as reporting it to the police. I can imagine doing that may be emotionally very hard so I can understand why it may not happen, along with stigmatization, but I do know the efficacy of the police (as low as it may be) is more than that of conference organizers or blog writers. Again, the woman isn't seeking any legal action. Read what she said. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,00:10    Quote (Driver @ Aug. 17 2013,00:03) Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 17 2013,05:57) I'm not trying to stir the pot, and if true it is horrendous, but reporting it to an organization isn't the same as reporting it to the police. I can imagine doing that may be emotionally very hard so I can understand why it may not happen, along with stigmatization, but I do know the efficacy of the police (as low as it may be) is more than that of conference organizers or blog writers. Again, the woman isn't seeking any legal action. Read what she said. So I'm going to be honest, and possibly look foolish, forgive my ignorance in advance. Shouldn't she be seeking legal action? Presumably she doesn't want it happening to others, which is why she told PZ? Again, *I can't know what it's like / I'm not her / insensative male and all those caveats. Someone has done something wrong and I don't think anyone here is equiped to know who it is. I suspect it will end up in courts anyway. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,00:26    [quote=Driver,Aug. 16 2013,23:43][/quote]   Quote Glen,     Quote Well, gee, I wonder if any court would accept that PZ is beyond question and any possibility of reproach. It appears that your demi-god is the law, since you can't shake leaning on that authority. Well, I didn't expect truth or decency from you.  My "demi-god" is the means of getting to the truth that has been honed into an adversarial system that actually tests so-called evidence.  Not the law, which needs to conform to it.  It's shameful that truth is such a missing ingredient your spiel. As far as the law goes, well, what else can we use at this time, other than your blatant disregard for honest methods of ascertaining truth?  Even were the law changed, it's unlikely that it would affect this matter.  Not that you have shown any indication of thought about this or other matters, save following your vengeful god.   Quote Anyhow, I did not say that PZ is "beyond possibility of reproach". Really?  Like that was the point.  You expect me to accept the word of a gutter snipe, who lacks regard for the methods that actually have a good chance of ascertaining the truth.  Since you don't actually care about truth, though, this is not surprising. Quote I said give me a good reason why he would lie. Oh I see, I'm asking you to meet the 'burden of proof,' and you cleverly (ha) pretend that I have the burden of proof to show that Myers is lying.  When I didn't say that was even what was happening, no matter how many times you dishonestly suggest that this is what counts.  So, you've failed egregiously once again to even contemplate what matters, instead shifting the goalposts to fit your prejudices.   Quote     Quote we're not in any sort of position to find out  what did occur. On the contrary, there are multiple lines of evidence by which we can provisionally believe what is, all things considered, an unexceptional claim. That's another mindless strawman that you bleat out with brazen stupidity.  I didn't claim that it was an exceptional claim, barely-literate one, I wrote quite the opposite, that it is believable, which is why you need to provide the "multiple lines of evidence" for it before simply throwing out unsubsatantiated accusations.  You provide nothing except more innuendo, more attacks, more blithering.   Quote In the "debate" between Oxfordians and Stratfordians, we could say that we are not in any position to find out what really occurred, but that one requires acceptance of some sources and commonplaces, and the other is a conspiracy theory with no evidence for it whatsoever. What a wonderful disanalogy.  It shows what a vapid and ignorant way of "thinking" that you have.   Quote Your hyperskepticism also amounts to giving credence to a conspiracy theory for which no evidence is presented. Oh nice, SJW name-calling, "hyperskepticism."  Actually, it's just skepticism, we're asking for substantive evidence, and you come up empty of anything but blather and lies instead.   Quote Ah, the insult you are looking for is "semi-literate". Also has a nice double meaning. Glad to be of help. No, that would be the truth, rather than an appropriate use of hyperbole for your poor grasp of anything written that doesn't fit your preconceptions.   Passive-aggressive dishonesty from you, I see.   Quote       Quote Again with the idiot-level reading.  That's not the only possibility If PZ Myers published the testimony without altering it, he is the publisher not author of the account. Only if he altered it or made it up is it not the woman's testimony. If it is the woman's testimony, it is not hearsay. My God, you're an ignorant twister of the truth.  It isn't "testimony" at all in the legal sense, it's just hearsay.  It doesn't become testimony even if PZM were beyond any kind of question.  Here's a simple piece on hearsay:   Quote In keeping with the three evidentiary requirements, the Hearsay Rule, as outlined in the Federal Rules of Evidence, prohibits most statements made outside a courtroom from being used as evidence in court. This is because statements made out of court normally are not made under oath, a judge or jury cannot personally observe the demeanor of someone who makes a statement outside the courtroom, and an opposing party cannot cross-examine such a declarant (the person making the statement). http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hearsay....hearsay That's just how it is, there's nothing being done to make sure that the woman's statements are correct in this case, hence it's not "testimony," except in the equivocal sense.   What is more you did more goal-shifting, because the issue wasn't whether or not this was her "testimony" (which it isn't, by legal definition), but whether or not it was true.  We don't know that, even if we trust PZ completely, and, given how he changed his "grenade" post, he looks slippery there, as well as in other matters. So you fail to understand what hearsay and testimony are, and dishonestly shift the goalposts.  A lot of social justice there.     Quote     Quote I'm not biting at the bait of your dishonest shift to other issues. I am talking about Shermer. There are several sources as to his conduct. Yes I know, you dishonestly shift from the actual matter at hand, which is the unsupported allegations of rape in one case.  I never once claimed that Shermer wasn't a cad or the like (nor that he didn't rape, for that matter--we hardly have evidence that can adjudicate that matter), which he may very be, but of the utter lack of decency  and legality of PZ's accusations.   Quote Besides which, the climate is rather relevant. And hardly sufficient to make up for your complete lack of any kind of legally-acceptable evidence for the charge.     Quote     Quote       Quote Thanks for all the additional material in your last post, Glen. You clearly like to decorate your meat with lots of salad. Here's - more salad. Even if you weren't simply trying to trash by idiotic name-calling what you can't refute, it would be a whole lot better as salad than as your prevarication and indecency.   Quote Rich, The case was reported to an organization already, who were apparently not helpful. No-one is trying to get Shermer convicted. That's the point, ignorant troll, you're not bothering with credible evidence, but you smear with disregard for truth. Glen Davidson -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,00:36    [quote=Driver,Aug. 16 2013,23:57][/quote]   Quote     Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 17 2013,01:16)     Quote (Driver @ Aug. 16 2013,19:01)             Quote (Glen Davidson @ Aug. 16 2013,23:30) I'm talking about following the law, rather than not giving a whit about being decent. Since the law and the process of law tend to uphold the status quo, and demonstrably so in the case of rape, Evidence?   This is just history denial. BS, as usual.   The truth, though, is that you'd need to explain "uphold the status quo."  Since I know the endless lies of PZ-type SJWs, I naturally assumed that you mean some dishonest fuckwitted notion of "rape culture," which, of course, is the implication to which I was responding. In a sense, of course, the law does uphold the status quo, especially your bourgeois privilege.  In the case of criminal law, though, I should only hope that they would stick with demanding legal evidence, rather than capitulating to the rumor and innuendo that you use to "convict" others.   Quote I thought we might be able to take it as a given that feminists and other civil rights advocates have usually had a point. Since the actual issue was defamation without credible evidence, I fail to see how feminists and civil rights activists had any point against that.  Not that you didn't attempt to shift the goalposts yet again, par for your disregard for truth and evidence. Quote I found this article for you: http://moourl.com/9uiur......r....ur   Quote By all means, do tell me how it is all fixed now. By all means, ignore what's at stake and shift the goalposts yet again. Glen Davidson ETA, this has gone far enough for me, Driver will do anything but forthrightly tackle the importance of evidence, shifts the goalposts constantly, and twists the truth as normal practice.  She's ignorant and resistant to learning from those of us who don't talk without knowing about which we're discussing.   And I've certainly caught her out in a host of ignorant claims and less than honest tactics, quite enough for any intellectually honest person to recognize that there's no more reason to deal with any more of this drivel and dissembling.  I'm out of this thread for a considerable time (week or more), with an estimated 90% certainty. This is why so many in the skeptic/atheist community have turned against Myers' and her tactics. -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Badger3k Posts: 861 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,01:32    Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 17 2013,00:10) Quote (Driver @ Aug. 17 2013,00:03) Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 17 2013,05:57) I'm not trying to stir the pot, and if true it is horrendous, but reporting it to an organization isn't the same as reporting it to the police. I can imagine doing that may be emotionally very hard so I can understand why it may not happen, along with stigmatization, but I do know the efficacy of the police (as low as it may be) is more than that of conference organizers or blog writers. Again, the woman isn't seeking any legal action. Read what she said. So I'm going to be honest, and possibly look foolish, forgive my ignorance in advance. Shouldn't she be seeking legal action? Presumably she doesn't want it happening to others, which is why she told PZ? Again, *I can't know what it's like / I'm not her / insensative male and all those caveats. Someone has done something wrong and I don't think anyone here is equiped to know who it is. I suspect it will end up in courts anyway. Haven't posted in a long time, even if I still read a bit (and that Gary G thread is something else), but if the allegations have substance, PZs actions may have caused harm to the woman and/or any case against Shermer.   Maryam Namzie had a good post up with reasons for reporting cases such as this (http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamnamazie/2013/08/09/report-them/), but I get a 404 error and it seems to be down so I can't quote directly. I copy & pasted from comment 28, Aug 12, the following bit: Quote Telling someone who has already gone public with a case of sex assault or abuse or rape to report the perpetrator is not dismissing her claim. It is in fact taking it seriously. However poor the law is, it is a real option for people to get some sort of redress and hearing that is unavailable elsewhere. Even if the issue is addressed at one’s workplace or on a million blogs, the woman in question has the right to be heard. Perpetrators – however we dislike them – also have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. That the system is unfair or that violence against women is ignored are not excuses for disregarding available options and pressing for justice. If everyone decided to take things in their own hands, we wouldn’t have had positive changes in the law because people fought for and finally got justice that was initially denied. Trying the case on blogs and via boards of various organisations is not the way to get real redress and justice. PZ has had a hard-on for Shermer for years.  If someone (prob Poppy from later comments both of them made around the web) sent PZ this email from this person, PZ could have seen the blood from Stollznow & Poppy's articles and decided to pile on as usual.   Notice though that at least one that seems credible (Stollznow) and one that is a bit more iffy to me (Poppy) have both been shoved in the back in light of the bigger "Shermer=rapist" brouhaha.  Not good for them, not really good for anybody but PZ and Co (such as a few others who are repeating the "well-evidenced rapist" claim, as well as the "Krauss=pedophile supporter" (if not serial harasser) claims.  Their blog hits have gone up, so they'll get money and attention, but the people with real issues (assuming they are real, all we have is PZs testimony, which was the point of the Mr Deity gospel allusion (?)) will probably suffer for it.  Any attention which might have gone to those two women has really been thrown away and onto PZ and Co.  Depends on what happens, but it all seems like an ideological witch hunt, along with an ego trip. All we can do is speculate and wait and see (and point and laugh or get sick at some of the people involved). Now, that's from someone who used to support PZ (but not his commenters) for years, but who has watched him go downhill (or maybe he just got more blatant with his behavior, or I just noticed it more as my own attitudes have grown), and who wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him one-handed.  Take it for whatever you want. Whether anything will go to the courts...who knows.  PZ ignored (as far as we can tell) the C&D;  whether the lawyers think it is worth pursuing is anyone's guess, or even if either party wants to go that route.  Some people on PZs blog have been saying that PZ abandoned the woman, who will have to get a lawyer now.  Still, nobody other than two (or maybe three) people and their lawyers know what's going on. -------------- "Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,01:58    Glen, Quote following your vengeful god. Content free and classy. Quote   Quote I said give me a good reason why he would lie. Oh I see, I'm asking you to meet the 'burden of proof,' and you cleverly (ha) pretend that I have the burden of proof to show that Myers is lying. The rational default position would usually be to provisionally believe an allegation of rape. In this instance, we have  separate sources that say Shermer has sexually assaulted someone, plus the climate, plus the reports of other unbecoming sexual behaviour by Shermer. Quote     Quote       Quote we're not in any sort of position to find out  what did occur. On the contrary, there are multiple lines of evidence by which we can provisionally believe what is, all things considered, an unexceptional claim. That's another mindless strawman that you bleat out with brazen stupidity.  I didn't claim that it was an exceptional claim I didn't say you did. It is an unexceptional claim, we are agreed. Quote I wrote quite the opposite, that it is believable This is not the opposite, but go on. Quote which is why you need to provide the "multiple lines of evidence" for it before simply throwing out unsubsatantiated accusations. Non-sequitur. Why does PZ Myers need to provide multiple lines of evidence before publishing the testimony of a person he knows and trusts who said she was raped by a man who has a reputation for being rather sleazy? PZ is not a court. He is not trying to establish guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. He is not an American broadsheet, either. He is relaying a woman's warning from a climate of sexual harassment. Or, PZ lied. In which case, yes, you rather do have a burden to say why he is lying. Which you can deny, sure. After all, PZ is a known liar, right? Creationists are always saying he lies. Also, PZ obviously wants to be invited to less of those  cushy paying gigs at skeptic conferences. He wants to encourage atheists not to buy his new book. Why wouldn't he make stuff up about Michael Shermer?     Quote What a wonderful disanalogy.  It shows what a vapid and ignorant way of "thinking" that you have. What  a stinging rebuttal.     Quote   My God, you're an ignorant twister of the truth.  It isn't "testimony" at all in the legal sense, it's just hearsay. Once again, there is no court of law here. There are two issues, yes. To tackle them both is not goal-shifting. One is: was PZ wrong to publish the report? You first said he is wrong because journalistic ethics, and now you are obsessed with the law. The other issue is: Should we believe the report? You say no because it is not established in a court of law, and because we have no way of knowing, and furthermore PZ might have lied.     Quote the utter lack of decency  and legality of PZ's accusations. Probably defamation, yes. There, we are agreed about illegality. Utter lack of decency? If he believes the allegation to be true, the decent thing to do is to publish it. Quote Even if you weren't simply trying to trash by idiotic name-calling what you can't refute I wasn't calling you a salad. I will call your statement an amusing display of a lack of self-awareness. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,03:03    Badger3k, what is this you know about Myers having a grudge against Shermer? -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Cubist Posts: 559 Joined: Oct. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,03:18    It's worth noting that what PZ posted was not an accusation of rape, and, in fact, could not be an accusation of rape. Anybody who didn't actually read the thing, but instead relied on second-hand descriptions of its content, or (even worse) hyperbolic misrepresentations of its content, could easily get the (quite erroneous!) impression that what PZ posted was an accusation that Shermer raped a woman… but anyone who actually read the thing would know that the woman in question stated that someone intervened before events progressed to the point of nonconsensual sex. So if one regards that Pharyngula post as an accusation aimed at Shermer, the accusation would not be Shermer is a rapist, but, rather, Shermer is kinda skeevy/creepy. But okay, let's ignore the actual content of that post, and let's say that that post realio, trulio was an flat-out, explicit, no-foolin' accusation of rape. Just how much damage would such an accusation do to Shermer? Looking at other cases, including those in which the rapist in question wasn't just accused but was, in fact, convicted of rape, it's not particularly difficult to find examples of accused and/or convicted rapists who really didn't suffer all that much in the way of consequences from having been accused and/or convicted. For instance, how much harm has Roman Polanski suffered as a result of his having been convicted of rape in a court of law? Well, he can't travel to just any old place he feels like at any time. And some people have unfavorable opinions of him. But beyond these relatively minor consequences of a purely social kind, exactly what harm has Polanski suffered as a result of his rape conviction? And hey, how about the Steubenville rapists? The whole town rallied behind them, and ran their victim—the girl they raped—out of town. Somehow, I'm having trouble seeing any real harm done to these convicted rapists as a result of their having been convicted of rape… So. You say that Shermer will suffer harm as a result of what PZ posted? I'm skeptical of that proposition. Got evidence to support it?

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,03:58    Quote (Cubist @ Aug. 17 2013,09:18) It's worth noting that what PZ posted was not an accusation of rape, and, in fact, could not be an accusation of rape. Anybody who didn't actually read the thing, but instead relied on second-hand descriptions of its content, or (even worse) hyperbolic misrepresentations of its content, could easily get the (quite erroneous!) impression that what PZ posted was an accusation that Shermer raped a woman… but anyone who actually read the thing would know that the woman in question stated that someone intervened before events progressed to the point of nonconsensual sex. So if one regards that Pharyngula post as an accusation aimed at Shermer, the accusation would not be Shermer is a rapist, but, rather, Shermer is kinda skeevy/creepy. " Quote At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. " It is the update on that post, the second report, that is not an accusation of rape. The first report is of rape. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

RDK Posts: 229 Joined: Aug. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,09:55    Quote How many users on reddit? We're not talking about a handful of people. The userbase of Reddit is not indicative of anything but the shitty userbase of Reddit. What does Reddit have to do with this conversation?  I'm truly arguing in good faith. -------------- If you are not: Leviathan please Logout under Meta in the sidebar. ‘‘I was like ‘Oh my God! It’s Jesus on a banana!’’  - Lisa Swinton, Jesus-eating pagan

Driver Posts: 649 Joined: June 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2013,10:15    Quote (RDK @ Aug. 17 2013,15:55) Quote How many users on reddit? We're not talking about a handful of people. The userbase of Reddit is not indicative of anything but the shitty userbase of Reddit. What does Reddit have to do with this conversation?  I'm truly arguing in good faith. What is the biggest subreddit? How many subscribers? How many  subscribers to r/skeptic? I already mentioned, in the post that got lost, the 15 year old girl who posted  a picture of herself with Demon Haunted World. The reaction to her was not acceptable to many atheists. There is the divide. It exists because significant numbers of atheists and skeptics are publicly homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, and/or rape-endorsing. That is not an exhaustive list, but it will do for starters. -------------- Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray [A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

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