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Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,03:55   

Quote
...you seem to the think that abuses and corruption are particularly egregious in the American system.


I don't say that the USA is rotten to the core. I'm referring to the multiplier effect you identify. Otherwise legitimate aspects of government like lobbying and fund-raising are, to use a nice phrase from the old Catechism, Occasions of Sin. The potential risk of (and rewards from, bless them!) their abuse increase (disproportionately, it seems to me) as accountability diminishes and power increases. And that is where I see a problem in the US system. Your Federal govt has accumulated quite astonishing powers at the expense of states that are allegedly sovereign. I understand and sympathise with many of the historical reasons for that, but it sure ain't what anyone was thinking of in 1789.

What would your constitution look like if those august gentlemen had been asked to draft it on the assumptions that
  • secession should be impossible
  • corporations should have the economic and political power that they currently have
  • the Federal military establishment should be funded to the extent it is, (regardless of their distaste for standing armies)
  • universal suffrage and corporate-controlled TV should be allowed


I'd hazard a guess that you would see much more power reserved to the states and more stringent control of Federal offices. That, or they'd send some nice flowers to London and ask if they could give it one more try. No more jokes about your mother's weight. Honest.

I've banged on about this too long, so I'll shut up soon. It's just that, as one of your fond relatives abroad, I find it disconcerting that the de facto emperor of the world should be selected by means of a process that looks like the bastard love-child of a beauty pageant and an arm-wrestling tournament.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,05:45   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 07 2008,22:26)
Sorry Amadan I was poking Lou's "knee jerk love it or leave it syndrome" there at your expense.  I thought after 9-11 the whole world knew about "you don't love freedom" sorta stuff and you would get it.

I never said any such thing, and your characterization is dishonest.

What I said was your attitude is juvenile and irresponsible.

...as is your continuing to be deliberately obtuse in order to make your point seem valid.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,06:42   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 08 2008,03:55)
Otherwise legitimate aspects of government like lobbying and fund-raising are, to use a nice phrase from the old Catechism, Occasions of Sin. The potential risk of (and rewards from, bless them!) their abuse increase (disproportionately, it seems to me) as accountability diminishes and power increases. And that is where I see a problem in the US system.

Well, the problem is that lobbying is one particular means by which groups of citizens influence government policy and practice and, therefore, falls under the title "petitioning the government for the redress of grievances."  That there is abuse in the system is not denied, but I think that our system allowing for access to political leaders and policy makers is, overall, one of it's strengths.  I always find it curious when people (not necessarily you, as you have yet to made sufficient distinction in your objection to lobbying) decry access to governmental leaders by corporations, but have no problem with labor unions and other advocacy groups have such access.  In the end, I suppose, it all depends on who's ox is being gored.      
Quote
Your Federal govt has accumulated quite astonishing powers at the expense of states that are allegedly sovereign. I understand and sympathise with many of the historical reasons for that, but it sure ain't what anyone was thinking of in 1789.

What would your constitution look like if those august gentlemen had been asked to draft it on the assumptions that
  • secession should be impossible
  • corporations should have the economic and political power that they currently have
  • the Federal military establishment should be funded to the extent it is, (regardless of their distaste for standing armies)
  • universal suffrage and corporate-controlled TV should be allowed

You list of assumptions betrays a particular point of view and, with the sole exception of universal suffrage, I can make the argument that the assumptions are unwarranted and that, to some extent, the underlying issues were known, in one form or another, to the Founders and were part of their deliberations.  Alexander Hamilton, for one, understood the coming industrialization at some level and it influenced his thinking greatly, particularly on the matter of a need for a central bank.
     
Quote

I'd hazard a guess that you would see much more power reserved to the states and more stringent control of Federal offices.

As answers go, that is non-responsive and, I think, historically inaccurate. There were great powers invested in the states (indeed , all powers not specifically ennumerated to the federal government). Many of the problems in our system are not, IMO, because insufficient powers were given to the states, but rather there was scope creep relative to the powers accumulated by the federal government in the subsequent years. But, in the absence of knowing what specific powers you think should have been given to the states, I can't really respond.
     
Quote

It's just that, as one of your fond relatives abroad, I find it disconcerting that the de facto emperor of the world should be selected by means of a process that looks like the bastard love-child of a beauty pageant and an arm-wrestling tournament.

Fair enough, but I don't see that as a constitutional flaw so much as the result of an insular public with an unfortunately broad anti-intellectual streak down their backs.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,08:07   

Quote
What I said was your attitude is juvenile and irresponsible.


yeah ok red dress.  please tell me sir what the alternative is.  

if it is all hogwarsh, as i say it is (as opposed to your position paraphrased here as "it's all hogwarsh, but you have to get in there with the hogs"), then why bother?

because you are reduced to slippery slope arguments predicated upon personal idiosyncratic likes and dislikes.  Just like they intended voting to work.

Those who see such drastic differences between sides are looking through a pinhole.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:42   

Well if you're not willing to do the smallest amount of homework about the red dress, then I shouldn't be surprised you wouldn't be bothered to plug "Republican Party Platform" and "Democratic Party Platform" into Google for purposes of comparison, let alone pay attention to who votes for which piece of legislation.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:48   

whooooosh

Lou of course i am pulling your chain re the red dress.  i read it and greatly enjoyed it many moons ago.

but you still continue to miss the point.  left/right, republican/democrat, liberal/conservative.  as far as i can see, all wrong.

i note that you do not contest my characterization of your position:  It's all hogwarsh, but you have to get in there with the hogs to complain.

voting for the lesser of two evils = voting for evil.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:51   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 08 2008,15:48)
whooooosh

Lou of course i am pulling your chain re the red dress.  i read it and greatly enjoyed it many moons ago.

but you still continue to miss the point.  left/right, republican/democrat, liberal/conservative.  as far as i can see, all wrong.

i note that you do not contest my characterization of your position:  It's all hogwarsh, but you have to get in there with the hogs to complain.

voting for the lesser of two evils = voting for evil.

No 'ras, I didn't miss your point, but you're right: I didn't contest it.

That had less to do with the validity of your assertions than my desire to lower the volume of this discussion.

Edited to hide a horrid grammar error.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 08 2008,21:06

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,18:39   

i've enjoyed the "discussion".  please continue.  
screw the volume.
turn it UP.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,18:53   

Lou's was the red dress of grievances. That's constitutional depth.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,19:16   

Quote (rhmc @ Sep. 08 2008,18:39)
i've enjoyed the "discussion".  please continue.  
screw the volume.
turn it UP.



--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,19:18   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 08 2008,16:53)
Lou's was the red dress of grievances. That's constitutional depth.

But what's this I've heard about some stain on the dress?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,08:16   

fine have it your way.

it's ok to play kick the believing christians but we can't play kick the believing voters.  i smell inconsistency here, perhaps it is that BR^OWN stain on your red dress.

belief in progress through politics = belief in orthogenesis

belief in justice through politics = belief in justice from bearded sky thunderer

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,09:03   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:16)

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

That isn' really necessary, Ras.

I think positions are neither being adequately explained nor understood, a sin I was guilty of some months back, in a back and forth I had with Wes.

I think Clausewitz is more important than anyone else mentioned so far.  All life is a power struggle.  The struggle can be violent or rhetorical.  Politics is where the rhetorical struggle takes place.  Voting is how we settle the rhetorical struggle.  It is indeed a terrible evil setup (as the old saw goes, it is still better than the alternatives) but not playing is not an option.  Not playing = dying.

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,09:30   

since dying happens anyway, paul, i don't see how that is an alternative.  

I'd suggest instead that politics is indeed a violent struggle, as evidenced by the consequences of political decisions.  all you decide with a vote is who should die.  pardon me if i don't play along, it's like a schoolyard game of selling out strangers to the bully.

'not necessary', perhaps..., but i disagree.  if we viewed the political arena with the same amount of skepticism we rightfully view the religious arena then this conversation would be moot.  I can't see the difference between humanists and other fundies.

regarding your insight that positions are not being explained, let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,13:47   

Disclaimer: Within my group of friends, one of us is a non-voter; with the reason that both parties are to blame.  On the rare occasions when the group talks politics, he trots out the old "neither is good so I don't vote but I'll criticize without providing a better option".  I've been thinking about what to say or how to...so if this seems directed at Erasmus, it's not, per se.  Some of the ideas apply, but it is more directed towards my group and, to be honest, is raw and unrefined.  Nonetheless, I think has some relevance to this discussion.


Both parties suck.  I won't argue that.  They both have corrupt, selfish members that care only for themselves and their family, and play up their supposed credentials to get elected.  They know what people want to hear and how to play the victim/crusader/outraged everyman as needed.  Both parties also have well-meaning, honest people that want to do well for the country and the people they represent.  They want to work with others and base their decisions on evidence and what will be best for the population, not what will be best for their next campaign.  The frustrating thing is that those people often seem to be powerless and/or outnumbered, if they can even get elected at all.  Without a doubt, our system polarizes just about any issue and throws balance of power to the winds.  It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.

So what now?  Two main options that lead to a cascade of others: participate in the current but flawed system or abstain.  If you abstain you can a) offer no suggestions and simply complain that all politicians are a waste or b) you can push for change.  Change such as more viable parties, removal or empowerment of the electoral college, even a new type of government or any number of other ideas about whatever it is that you think is wrong.  Let's say that we despise the system, refuse to participate in it, and want it changed.  Short of armed revolution, how else will you change the system?  Despite the poor phrasing, this is not rhetorical but an honest question.  The only thing I can think of is a 'change the culture' mentality, which I do support.  But a change in the culture does not mean that the system is changed by default.  To me, once the culture is changed you are still left with changing the system from within (by participating) or removing the offending system.

Now what about participating?  Is voting in the current system something of a tacit approval of the broken politics?  Unfortunately yes, but no less than not voting is tacit approval of the status quo.  Once you participate in the system, does that mean that you can't push for change?  Should we just give up trying and submit to a broken system?  Unequivocally, no.  You can work with a broken system by putting into power people that are willing to make changes to fix it.  A legitimate concern is that once any party is in power, nothing more would be done; no party would give up power willingly.  However such a fatalistic attitude assumes that you could not being to lay the groundwork that would make changing the system possible.  Without a doubt, it would be resisted every step of the way but such changes would need to be incremental, and some politicians would be more accommodating than others.  It would not be quick and it would frustrating and full of set-backs, but at least it would be movement towards a better system.  Sometimes, you do have to work within the system to get the system to improve.  I know it is trite and whatnot, but that alone doesn't make it untrue.  In my opinion, if you avoid the system because of disgust, what is important to you may be sacrificed because the system moves on, with or without you.  And the thing is, it drags you along whether you like it or not.

The teaching of evolution is a perfect example.  While no president will be able to settle the issue once and for all, their decisions affect the Department of Education and their veto power can decide laws and funding.  Obama has stated his support for evolution pretty clearly (although it would be nice to see if he could match comments by Clinton*).  Biden has called Intelligent Design 'malarkey', although I can't find specific support of evolution.  McCain seems to have hedged his bet, saying he believes in evolution and that creationism should not be taught in classrooms, but that '...Americans should be exposed to every point of view' and specifically delivered the 2007 keynote address for the Discovery Institute.  Palin also seems to skirt the line as much as she can and supports teaching both and the "don't be afraid of debate" type-scam.

So, here's the play: I think we can all agree, for better or worse, that one of the two major parties will win this election.  It's not a matter of should they, are they the best, etc. but that there is no practical chance that anyone other than a Republican or a Democrat will win this election.  So the option comes down to the pro-evolution/anti-intelligent design ticket and the teach the controversy/teach both ticket.  By not voting, you are letting someone else make the decision on this topic which may have significant impact on the status of teaching evolution.  Your vote is a chance to at least register your opinion, discussions of the electoral college not withstanding.

Voting doesn't mean you have to commit heart and soul to that least offensive party or that you can't ever move beyond them.  But if you do want to have meaningful change, IMO, start by getting the most helpful of two options in and slowly work to get other options in.  It won't be fast and it won't be easy, but small chance is better than no chance.




* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/politics/05clinton.html  Clinton's words were nice, but she is a politician and words mean little without action.  This alone wouldn't be enough to believe someone, but it at least lets me see what they are willing to say and what they are afraid of saying.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:09   

Quote
It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.


I think that could be said in any period of history.

It does, however, work as well or better than evolution. I'm not aware of many instances where complex systems worked exactly as planned, or were capable of adjusting for and compensating for unexpected contingencies.

People wring their hands because politics is not rational, but the fact is that life does not hand us problems with tidy, deterministic solutions.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:15   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 09 2008,09:30)
...let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:41   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 09 2008,15:09)
 
Quote
It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.


I think that could be said in any period of history.

It does, however, work as well or better than evolution. I'm not aware of many instances where complex systems worked exactly as planned, or were capable of adjusting for and compensating for unexpected contingencies.

People wring their hands because politics is not rational, but the fact is that life does not hand us problems with tidy, deterministic solutions.

Midwifetoad, don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that if it isn't perfect, it's crap.  I don't expect a perfect system.  My rambling comments were more directed at those that complain about the system and avoid being a part of it.  They often don't see that they enforce the very status quo that they hate by not pushing the system one way or the other.

I think the US election system has some serious flaws (balance of the electoral college vs popular vote, redistricting, two-party pigeonholing, etc) that could be fixed, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work at all.  I'm just not sure our electoral system is optimal for the situation as it is today.  Perhaps it was when it was created, but I don't think it is now.  Yeah, it works but that doesn't mean it could be better.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:31   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 09 2008,09:16)
fine have it your way.

it's ok to play kick the believing christians but we can't play kick the believing voters.  i smell inconsistency here, perhaps it is that BR^OWN stain on your red dress.

belief in progress through politics = belief in orthogenesis

belief in justice through politics = belief in justice from bearded sky thunderer

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

So sitting in the corner and sniveling about the unfairness of it all is the answer. Gotcha.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:38   

Two things:

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,10:30)
If the question is "How Ought We Live",...

1. No, that's not the question.

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,10:30)
...I am saying that this ain't it.

2. That's not even a useful answer to the question anyway.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:44   

Quote (clamboy @ Sep. 09 2008,20:15)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:30)
...let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!

I thought that was the Pope.

Damn, wrong again!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:50   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 09 2008,23:31)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:16)
fine have it your way.

it's ok to play kick the believing christians but we can't play kick the believing voters.  i smell inconsistency here, perhaps it is that BR^OWN stain on your red dress.

belief in progress through politics = belief in orthogenesis

belief in justice through politics = belief in justice from bearded sky thunderer

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

So sitting in the corner and sniveling about the unfairness of it all is the answer. Gotcha.

Snivelling is ALWAYS the answer for many people.

Options:

1) Work with the system for change.

2) Smash the system.

3) Refuse to participate and disenfranchise yourself.

4) Remove yourself from the system and set your own one up.

I prefer a combination of 1, 2 and 4 as and when appropriate.

Since 'twas only mere months ago that dear 'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry (despite reasoned disagreement being at the core of said dislike), I'm guessing that this latest "voting = praying" is yet another false equivalence in a long line of wind ups.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:55   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2008,23:55)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

LOL Find it yourself! I can't be bothered. My point is that (IMO) 'Ras is on the wind up*. This lark ain't serious.

I could be wrong of course.

Louis

*Does this translate into foreign?

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,18:06   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:56)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2008,23:55)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

LOL Find it yourself! I can't be bothered.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,18:19   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 10 2008,00:06)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:56)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2008,23:55)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

LOL Find it yourself! I can't be bothered.


Congratulations on your first incredibly accurate LOLcat!

You can haz cheezburger.

Louis

ETA: I'm trying to remember what thread it was in, but alas to no avail. Senility at 33is a bitch.

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,20:22   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Sep. 09 2008,13:47)
Voting doesn't mean you have to commit heart and soul to that least offensive party or that you can't ever move beyond them.  But if you do want to have meaningful change, IMO, start by getting the most helpful of two options in and slowly work to get other options in.  It won't be fast and it won't be easy, but small chance is better than no chance.




* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/politics/05clinton.html  Clinton's words were nice, but she is a politician and words mean little without action.  This alone wouldn't be enough to believe someone, but it at least lets me see what they are willing to say and what they are afraid of saying.

Spottedwind - well said, and welcome!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. "
Winston Churchill

If we don't vote, the Lying Liers win all the time.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,00:06   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,17:44)
Quote (clamboy @ Sep. 09 2008,20:15)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:30)
...let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!

I thought that was the Pope.

Damn, wrong again!

Indeed! In that particular case one ought to say, "Next you'll be suggesting that the oligarchically-elected dictator of the pre-Lutheran Christian establishment maintains his faith in that specific denomination!"

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,00:54   

Voting isn't so bad.  I've come to the realization that, as a borderline anarchist, my other option is to vote with my 20 gauge.  Since I also recognize Machaevalianism (sp.) for what it is, I'll stick to voting the normal way, for now.  :)

I hope that doesn't boggle too many people's minds.

I AM tougher than I look, really.  ;)

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,05:38   

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,00:54)
Voting isn't so bad.  I've come to the realization that, as a borderline anarchist, my other option is to vote with my 20 gauge.  Since I also recognize Machaevalianism (sp.) for what it is, I'll stick to voting the normal way, for now.  :)

I hope that doesn't boggle too many people's minds.

I AM tougher than I look, really.  ;)

This puts me in mind of the sainted Dorothy Parker's views on deep questions like this:

Razors pain you, rivers are damp,
Acids stain you, drugs cause cramp,
Guns aren't lawful*, nooses give,
Gas smells awful, you might as well live.




* except in Alaska, where they seem to be obligatory

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
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