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  Topic: FTK Research Thread, let's clear this up once and for all< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,16:29   

Quote

But, you've only barely skimmed the surface.


Skim this.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,16:40   

I had forgotten this delightful quote:

Quote
Since most creationism is folklore, the claims are organized in an outline format following that of Stith Thompson's Motif-Index of Folk-Literature. Sections CA through CG deal with claims against conventional science, and sections CH through CJ contain claims about creationism itself.


I've long had the idea that creationism is basically 'folk science', in the sense that it's equally valid regardless of who advocates it or what they say about it. Nice to see that others had already noticed.

PS: Yikes! 3,000!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,16:52   

FtK:

Quote

I’m sorry...I don’t know what Hyla versicolor is, and I’m short on time right now.  Maybe someone can give me a quick explanation?


Before, you said:

Quote

Isn't polyploidy limited to flowering plants?


Hyla versicolor is a tetraploid species group that is not a plant, therefore illustrating that your notion of what polyploidy might be limited to came from ignorance, not knowledge.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:04   

Quote
It's tons of books, articles, and internet sites I've read over the years


but ever so clearly no actual science.

now tell us all about bigfoot and Nessy, eh?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:20   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 24 2007,16:52)
FtK:

 
Quote

I’m sorry...I don’t know what Hyla versicolor is, and I’m short on time right now.  Maybe someone can give me a quick explanation?


Before, you said:

 
Quote

Isn't polyploidy limited to flowering plants?


Hyla versicolor is a tetraploid species group that is not a plant, therefore illustrating that your notion of what polyploidy might be limited to came from ignorance, not knowledge.

Is there a point in this exercise, Wes?

you can go back literally years and see the exact same kinds of information imparted to her on other forums and other threads, and see the endless cycle repeat itself over and over.  starts off with projection (all scientists are just like church worshippers), then denial of the myriad of evidence presented showing this just ain't so, followed by running away to "ponder", followed by returning with the exact same projections they start with.  

How many times have we seen the exact same pattern now?

I know for me it must be close to a hundred.  

You're simply not going to convince a diehard taker of snake oil that it doesn't work.

there is really only one thing remaining to decide wrt to keeping threads like this going, IMO:

Is it worth pursuing the endless loop in order to refresh information for lurkers.

frankly, if an interesting issue pops up, like polyploidy and speciation, I've always thought that a better thing to do would be to create a separate thread to explore the specific issue in depth, so the focus of the thread IS the science.

alternatively, the only other valuable insight to come from threads like this is yet another data point supporting the idea that commitment to woo and pseudoscience is a matter of psychology only.

IOW, I find there to be complete justification in a thread like this for a post like the one where you simply linked to the ICC ("skim this").  There seems little point in trying to explain polyploidy and speciation to someone who find value in the idea of a CatDog as relevant to evolutionary theory.

It really is all just like "rocket science" to her.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:33   

Quote

Is there a point in this exercise, Wes?

you can go back literally years and see the exact same kinds of information imparted to her on other forums and other threads, and see the endless cycle repeat itself over and over.


I've been using Hyla versicolor as a remedy for ignorance since at least 1995, long before FtK appeared on the scene. Yeah, another thread might be a good thing. But, yes, the point is now, as it always has been, the edification of the lurkers.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
don_quixote



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:34   

I think Mike PSS, Louis, and the other Brits here will appreciate it the most, but I personally think this sums up the creo-mind wonderfully:

From Father Ted: Good Luck, Father Ted

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:36   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,12:03)
 Obviously, many scientists believe that the Oort cloud exists, but there are many issues that conflict with that belief.  Here's the index in which the Oort cloud is listed.  You can read more about the problems surrounding the Oort cloud in the links provided.

How about the Kuiper Belt, FTK.  Does that, uh, exist?

(snicker)  (giggle)

Stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about.

You dont.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:39   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,12:13)
Isn't polyploidy limited to flowering plants?  

BWA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks for once again demonstrating your ignorance to everyone.

Go Google "Hyla versicolor".


Why oh why why why do you insist on blithering about things you don't understand and don't know anything about?

And why oh why why why do you actually expect anyone to listen to you seriously?

Geez.  Your martyr complex must be far more massive than I thought.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:43   

Quote (Mike PSS @ June 24 2007,13:06)
What I think is more important than the attempt at pooh-poohing science is WHY this attempt is taken.

Ftk,
WHY does the present scientific explanation for the Oort cloud formation (or existance) require some creationist tracts against this explanation?

I really want to know, from you (or the creationist authors) WHY you have to disprove this point.

It's an old old YEC argument -- goes something like this:

Creationut:  We see short-period comets in the sky.  If the earth were actually old, all the short-period comets would be gone by now.  Therefore the earth isn't old.

Sane person:  Um, short period comets come from the Kuiper belt and the Oordt cloud, and are constantly being replenished.

Creationut:  Nuh-uh.  There really isn't any Kuiper Belt or Oordt cloud.  It's all just an atheistic commie plot to destroy God.


Right, FTK?

(snicker)  (giggle)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:47   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,16:01)
I’m sorry...I don’t know what Hyla versicolor is, and I’m short on time right now.  Maybe someone can give me a quick explanation?

BWAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AHA HA HA HA HA AHHA AHA HA HA HA AH AHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AHA HA HA A HA HA AH AHA HA HA HA HA HA AH AHA HA HA AHA HA HA AHA HA HA AHA HA HA HA AHA HA HA AH AH AHAHA HA HA H  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(recovers, picks self off of floor)


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA A A H AH AH AH HA HA HA HA H HAHA H AH HA HA HA AH AHA HA HA HA HA HA HA AHHA   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why the hell does anyone even bother?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:50   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,16:11)
 But, you've only barely skimmed the surface.  

 If you don't read the whole thing, many parts read at a glance will make no sense at all.

This from the very same person who jsut got finished tellign us:

Quote
You’re right...I didn’t check out the link.  I’ll try to get to it later tonight.


I glanced at the link and saw some orchids, but I’m not sure exactly what the changes are that are taking place.

I’ve got to get to another ball game (believe it or not) and want to address Ian real quick, so sorry I haven’t taken more time to read your links.




Hypocrisy, thy name is "creationist".

Ever wonder why nobody takes you seriously, FTK . . . . ?

(snicker)  (giggle)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:52   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,16:11)
 Like Lenny, I have my little quirks.

FTK, I do seriously think you're obsessed with me.  What are you, in love or something?

Or is it just that I give you what you really want deep down inside ---- food for your massive martyr complex?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:54   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 24 2007,17:33)
I've been using Hyla versicolor as a remedy for ignorance since at least 1995

Hey, I think you stole it from ME, dammit.  

;)

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:57   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 24 2007,17:52)
Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,16:11)
Like Lenny, I have my little quirks.

FTK, I do seriously think you're obsessed with me.  What are you, in love or something?

Or is it just that I give you what you really want deep down inside ---- food for your massive martyr complex?

Says the man who posts a ridiculous number of times in a row to a woman he knows won't answer?

Why do you waste your time Lenny? For gods sake calm yourself down.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,17:59   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 24 2007,17:33)
 
Quote

Is there a point in this exercise, Wes?

you can go back literally years and see the exact same kinds of information imparted to her on other forums and other threads, and see the endless cycle repeat itself over and over.


I've been using Hyla versicolor as a remedy for ignorance since at least 1995, long before FtK appeared on the scene. Yeah, another thread might be a good thing. But, yes, the point is now, as it always has been, the edification of the lurkers.


fair enough, and I'm in no way trying to be overly critical here, but shouldn't it be made abundantly clear then?

If the initial impetus of a thread is to try and convince by evidential argument, at what point does the law of diminishing returns apply?

for example, that "creator god" thread went on for several THOUSAND posts.

If the goal was to try and convince Dave Hawkins of anything, I'd say the law of diminishing returns was reached after the first 20 posts or so.

seriously, I'm asking:

when should the law of diminishing returns honestly apply, if the point of the thread is to try and convince the subject of something?

frankly, as I admitted to earlier in this thread, I saw little point in continuing other than to dredge up the constant bits of irony posted by FTK merely to amuse myself.  If I wanted to recapitulate Brown's horrid bit of delusion he calls a "book", I'd make a thread about it and tear it apart piece by piece.

I'd say that at some point, the pretense of trying to convince the unconvincable has to be dropped.  The effort is never wasted when a fresh face comes to town, but we're looking at an ancient mummified corpse here (no reference to physical appearance implied or intended).

repeating what I said earlier, I see little value in discussing polyploidy with her, and a more honest answer to her repeated issuings to be simply a link to ICC, just as you did with the earlier post.

Maybe I'm overanalyzing this whole thing, but really, at some level it just seems a bit dishonest to even pretend this person is truly interested in learning, given that there are putatively a great many others who ARE.

seriously, I rather envision the role of the "subjects" of the entire Hawkins thread, and these ones with FTK, to be little more than reminders of things that are otherwise actually interesting to discuss in a thread on their own.

for example, I could understand the role of FTK in reminding us the importance of looking at genetics in plants as an interesting topic in the study of evolution.

but then, I find that simply having a list of interesting topics in evolution ready to hand serves much the same purpose.

Steve touched on this earlier, but perhaps the reason I am taking the time to analyze this in horrid detail is at some point, it seems like it just becomes an exercise in cruelty to keep throwing water balloons at the clown, long after their initial performance is done, even if the clown keeps setting themselves up to be pelted, over and over and over again.

I'm thinking, for example, that once some recognized diminishing return in discussion is reached, rather than addressing an issue like that of polyploidy to an "FTK", a more productive and fun (yeah, I'm sick that way) thing to do would be to say something like:

"Oh yeah, that reminds me of some great examples of polyploidy.  I'll just make a quick thread in case there are those that might be interested in asking questions about it."

then the issue becomes not about trying to thrust actual science into the face of the ignorant and unlearnable (which rather ends up like trying to prove the sky is blue to someone who is colorblind), but about the science itself, which in the end, speaks for itself.

If interest is expressed in the new thread, then a more in depth discussion can proceed without the distraction of the clown in the room.

anyway, I just felt like it was time to express my thoughts on the issue, now that I've observed so many threads like this.  There is both a serious and a humorous side to everything, and while I often come here for the humor value (which still exists in this thread), I just wanted to throw out something I had been seriously thinking about for a while now.

apologies to FTK for distracting her from regurgitating things she doesn't understand from Brown's ramblings.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,18:20   

Quote

Hey, I think you stole it from ME, dammit.


Could be. In which case, thank you, Lenny, for the example.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,18:23   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 24 2007,17:36)
How about the Kuiper Belt, FTK.  Does that, uh, exist?

The evidence is equivocal.  It could also be interpreted to support the theory of the Kuiper Suspenders.  Recent photographs have done nothing to clear the issue up.



Coincidence that the table is positioned in the exact right place? Of course not, it was specifically (may I say, intelligently?) placed to obscure so that we all have to decide for ourselves where the evidence leads.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,18:36   

@Arden Chatterbox:

Quote
PS: Yikes! 3,000!


'bout time.

:p

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Henry J



Posts: 5787
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,18:52   

Re "If one thing goes wrong, all the earlier marvelous steps that worked flawlessly were in vain."

Doesn't that pretty much just describe what happens when a species goes extinct?

---

Re "That critter will not have been "half dog/half cat"."

Right - and it might also have to be half bear, half weasel, and half a few other things. Course, with all those halves, the critter might be pretty large.

---

Re "The mitochondrial method of studying evolution, however, supports the Marsupionta hypothesis, which places the platypus and kangaroo together."

Would that imply that live birth evolved separately in marsupials and eutherians?

Henry

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:01   

Quote (IanBrown_101 @ June 24 2007,16:25)
Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,16:22)
Ian, it's not "just this book".  It's tons of books, articles, and internet sites I've read over the years.  When I took biology, there was so much I never even thought of questioning, but after reading info. from both sides of this debate, I could not possibly consider common descent a "fact" in the sense that the "scientific community" wants it to be taught.  

I have absolutely no problem with evolution being taught...including common descent and the whole shebang, but certainly we should be considering the massive amount of questions still haunting the theory.  I 'd never even thought about some of the stuff I think about now in regard to the theory.  I just learned what was provided me and didn't question it much.

There is the bigger picture to consider.

Crap...I've got to go to the game.

Later.

So, what do you think motivates the scientific community to keep the mass of questions quiet? Why do you think they aren't doing this research themselves?

Also, finally, why aren't the creos doing any research?

Hon, I don't think there is a mass "conspiracy" from the scientific community to keep creation scientists or IDists quiet.  My belief is that most scientists, in general, don't give these issues much real thought at all.  

I believe the core groups such as NCSE, etc. are thoroughly and completely convinced beyond any doubt whatsoever that evolution (microbe to man) is a fact.  They truly believe that creationists and IDists are lying, cunning con artists.  They feel it is their mission in life to put a stop to these fiends who are out to "stop science".  

And, why would anyone doubt them?  

The majority of scientists are materialists, so when a place like NCSE tells them that the only reason why people doubt evolution is due to fanatical religious beliefs, they would have no reason to question it.  And, truth be told, some religious groups get quite loony about this topic and go off the deep end (ie. Hovind), which doesn't help matters.

Certainly, biologists go nuts about the topic because it hits so close to home and they believe their entire world would fold if common descent were not a "fact".  Heck the textbooks base everything on this "cornerstone" of science.  But, in reality, I still see very little necessity in believing that every organism on the face of the earth evolved from a flippin' little microbe.  

Gosh, I keep looking in this textbook Dave gave me and staring at that little microbe and the series of pictures that supposedly respresents how that little sucker looked when it started on its evolutionary journey.  

I'm wondering if someone threw some pixie dust on it to get it to be able to do something that resulted in everything we observe in the world today.  I mean, color me impressed...ya got nothing...then miracuously a microbe starts rolling around...somehow natural selection kicked in....then a mutation occurs (sounds miraculous to me)...WOW! something changed a little...time goes by...amazing change occurs again...it reproduces itself for some reason (though how that happened is a complete mystery}...little changes occur over time in the byproducts of the microbe...etc., etc., etc. until we end up with the most amazing designs in nature that one could ever conceive of....all the result of a tiny little BLOB and the mechanisms of evolution.  

Sorry, but the chances of me accepting this senario as fact are quite slim.

Oh, and "creos" do research, you'll just never find it in anything considered "mainstream".  Just keep reading...

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:13   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,19:01)
Sorry, but the chances of me accepting this senario as fact are quite slim.

This shows a huge problem with you being "open minded". How is this "open minded"?

Now, I consider myself fairly open minded, IF I was to be shown a huge mountain of evidence, then I would have to go towards believing that. On the other hand you HAVE been shown the evidence, and you just dismiss it with "I can't believe it". How is this productive?

Incidentally, if the creos do research WHY isn't it published in the mainstream? I mean, if it's proper research then there would be no need to print it anywhere but the recognised places, and since you (rightly) dismiss the idea of a scientific conspiricy as sheer lunacy, what prevents them from publishing in, for example, Nature or even New Scientist (my personal pop science mag of choice, no idea how good it is, but I like it)?

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:16   

Quote (Henry J @ June 24 2007,18:52)
Re "That critter will not have been "half dog/half cat"."

Right - and it might also have to be half bear, half weasel, and half a few other things. Course, with all those halves, the critter might be pretty large.

maybe we should ask Manbearpig:



there i go, amusing myself at the expense of FTK again.

*bad fishy!*

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:17   

Quote (IanBrown_101 @ June 24 2007,17:57)
Says the man who posts a ridiculous number of times in a row to a woman he knows won't answer?

That, of course, being the whole point.

As I've noted before, my questions make their point whether FTK answers or not.  I don't need her cooperation.

Indeed, her continuous refusal to answer, only reinforces my point.

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:18   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 24 2007,19:17)
Quote (IanBrown_101 @ June 24 2007,17:57)
Says the man who posts a ridiculous number of times in a row to a woman he knows won't answer?

That, of course, being the whole point.

As I've noted before, my questions make their point whether FTK answers or not.  I don't need her cooperation.

Indeed, her continuous refusal to answer, only reinforces my point.

But, for whatever reason, she IS replying to me.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:20   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,19:01)
Hon, I don't think there is a mass "conspiracy" from the scientific community to keep creation scientists or IDists quiet.  

Oh, of course you do, FTK.

Don't bullshit us.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:21   

Quote
But, for whatever reason, she IS replying to me.


*psst*

she thinks she is winning you over to her side.

(don't tell her!)

*snicker*

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:22   

Quote (Ftk @ June 24 2007,19:01)
 My belief is that most scientists, in general, don't give these issues much real thought at all.  

Riiiiigggghhhhtttttt -- geologists for a hundred-fifty years now haven't given any real thought to the age of the earth AT ALL.


(snicker)  (giggle)

Do you ever wonder why everyone laughs at you, FTK . . . .?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:22   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 24 2007,16:52)
FtK:

Quote

I’m sorry...I don’t know what Hyla versicolor is, and I’m short on time right now.  Maybe someone can give me a quick explanation?


Before, you said:

Quote

Isn't polyploidy limited to flowering plants?


Hyla versicolor is a tetraploid species group that is not a plant, therefore illustrating that your notion of what polyploidy might be limited to came from ignorance, not knowledge.

You know what, Wesley?  This doesn't explain much to me.  You just seem hell bent on pointing out that I'm ignorant....so, I'll give you that point.  I don't know squat about this particular topic, so briefly explain.  You don't need to start a whole new thread...just tell me what you're trying to get at and how it is evidence for common descent.  Try to talk in laymen's terms if possible.

Also, you didn't provide any pictures of orchids evolving with noticeable changes in morphology.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,19:22   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 24 2007,19:21)
she thinks she is winning you over to her side.

(don't tell her!)

*snicker*

Indeed.

"Delusional"  appears to be her middle name.  (sigh)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
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