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  Topic: UnReasonable Kansans thread, AKA "For the kids"< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,14:23   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 06 2007,14:13)
Quote (Ftk @ April 06 2007,14:02)
I will fight this urge to go where no true conservative Christian has gone before.

Wrong, again

PhhHhh!

He's completely cured now!

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/06/ted-haggard-cured/

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,15:28   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 06 2007,13:52)
Now now, Davescot (who is built like a middle weight boxer / NFL player (NFL = No Free lunch in this case)) will be jealous.

You just think you want me. You don't really.

Tell her you want to destroy the American family and institute mandatory Islamoatheism in public schools. That should turn her off.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,16:29   

Quote (Ftk @ April 06 2007,12:44)
[blushes]


[whispering to Kristine]

What's your going rate for a few quick shimmie lessons?

[/whispering to Kristine]

You're not going to believe your luck. It's all in the knees.

However my price is high. It involves a certain Dembsknee.

Psst. I'm really a guy. Don't tell Richard.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,16:39   

And in case it's not obvious, that is a call to use the proposed new filter. This is a test.

What did you think of Wes's article, Ftk?

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,20:19   

I think it sucks...

Filter that.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,20:25   

What part of Wes's argument sucks? Where was Wes's reasoning poor?

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,20:46   

Quote (stevestory @ April 06 2007,20:25)
What part of Wes's argument sucks? Where was Wes's reasoning poor?

The whole not evidence for the bible / god / young Earth bit.


I guess flirtytime is over.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,21:00   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 06 2007,21:46)
Quote (stevestory @ April 06 2007,20:25)
What part of Wes's argument sucks? Where was Wes's reasoning poor?

The whole not evidence for the bible / god / young Earth bit.


I guess flirtytime is over.

Wes writes good papers. Elsberry Shallit 2003 is a classic. If there are holes in the logic, I'd like to hear what they are.

   
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,21:53   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 06 2007,18:46)
Quote (stevestory @ April 06 2007,20:25)
What part of Wes's argument sucks? Where was Wes's reasoning poor?

The whole not evidence for the bible / god / young Earth bit.


I guess flirtytime is over.

Eh, she posted at what, 8:30 her time on a Friday night? Chalk it up to crankiness-inducing wine coolers. It'll be good when she comes back tomorrow renewed and ready to discuss the paper's flaws.

--------------
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,21:54   

Quote (Ftk @ April 06 2007,14:02)
I will fight this urge to go where no true conservative Christian has gone before.

As I noted before, back in my younger days, conservative Christians were indeed one place where I went, where no man had gone before.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,21:59   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 06 2007,00:04)
FIGHT FOR MY LOVE, BUT NOT TOO HARD AND FALL INTO EACH OTHERS ARMS AND MAKE OUT AT THE END.

Dude, I sooooooo want to see the DVD . . . . .

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,22:10   

Quote (Ftk @ April 06 2007,19:19)
I think it sucks...

Filter that.

Okay. Done. That's pretty disrespectful, a slap in my face for no reason, as well as an obvious evasive maneuver. I filter that you do not want to discuss the science.

Whereas I do. Wes and John outline a scenario of deception that Dembski's EF is inadequate in teasing out. It seems that it's impossible to separate "design" from the motivation for design when you don't already have the answer that you are looking for. The EF is a retro-fit, rather than an actual process that can accurately find answers that are not already known.

What say others? I am grasping this at all? As you know I'm not a scientist. I enjoyed the paper, and we can continue this thread to discuss this with or without Ftk.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,23:02   

Okay, I read the paper through, and I thought it was a very clearly laid out indictment. FTK, if you think the paper 'sucks', I think we're entitled to an explanation about why it sucks.

No more Ann Coulter bullshit. Explain your reasoning like a grownup.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,23:42   

OK, you made me read the paper, too.

I have a question for FtK.  Dembski published the EF book years ago. What, five years or so?  Or more?

Since Dembski published a means to detect design, and this is a question for FtK, how many designs have been detected or proven by the EF?

There must be ten zillion biological thingies out there that were designed by the Great Designer, He who must not be named and for the sake of this argument I won't invoke the designer.

So, FtK, I'm curious to know what biological systems in the past decade have been proven or even indicated to have been designed based on Dembski's EF.

I know that I'm only a poor chemist but for the life of me I've searched high and low and I can't find a single example.  Not one.  Not a single one.  Not even a whiff.  A snippet.

Educate me, FtK, I sit at your feet.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,23:45   

Quote (Doc Bill @ April 06 2007,23:42)
OK, you made me read the paper, too.

I have a question for FtK.  Dembski published the EF book years ago. What, five years or so?  Or more?

Since Dembski published a means to detect design, and this is a question for FtK, how many designs have been detected or proven by the EF?

There must be ten zillion biological thingies out there that were designed by the Great Designer, He who must not be named and for the sake of this argument I won't invoke the designer.

So, FtK, I'm curious to know what biological systems in the past decade have been proven or even indicated to have been designed based on Dembski's EF.

I know that I'm only a poor chemist but for the life of me I've searched high and low and I can't find a single example.  Not one.  Not a single one.  Not even a whiff.  A snippet.

Educate me, FtK, I sit at your feet.

9 years, and still unused:

http://thesciphishow.com/forums/index.php?topic=114.0

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,00:18   

FtK,

So, Evil Richard says that the EF hasn't been used in 9 years in spite of 10 bazillion biological thingies to apply it to, disregarding the hanging participle.

Ten bazillion biological thingies that "could have been designed" but not a single case to demonstrate.

FtK, please contact Central Control and ask for an answer.  We await your reply.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,02:54   

Quote (Ftk @ April 06 2007,20:19)
I think it sucks...

Filter that.

I think God sucks.

But don't ask me why.  ;)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,04:06   

FTK,

I am, I have to say, a little shocked by your comment about Wesley's and John's paper.

I thought you were here to discuss the science, something I have openly offered to do with you very politely at least three times now. I'm a working scientist, it's my day, night and weekend job, and unless we were mucking around in the lab and being very very frivolous the description of someone's work as "it sucks" simply wouldn't happen. Even on those rare occasions when one so airily dismisses someone else's work, one gives reasons. To that end, as you are someone who claims to read the primary literature and is "all about the science", I think as a courtesy you owe us all an explanation of precisely why that paper sucks.

Thanks very much.

Louis

P.S. Oh and the rest of you: Arden is super gay, Rich is a girly man and hung like a Chinese mouse. I myself am hung like a 6 year old boy i.e. about 4 and a half foot and weighing in at about 60 pounds. You all know that FTK has come here to be my mistress because she's ignoring my questions and that's what girls do in the playground at primary school when they like you. I've also been doing wheelies on my bike and press-ups outside Kristine's house, and to be blunt, she's my mistress too. No one can resist press-ups and wheelies. I may give her a jammy dodger, which is a biscuit and not a sexually transmitted infection. Sorry to break it to all of you so harshly.

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Bye.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,05:28   

I think that I must defend FtK here. Nobody else on the ID side has said anything that does a substantially better job of responding to Wilkins and Elsberry 2001. Her reply at least avoids the all-too-common obscurantism engaged in by ID creationism advocates when dealing with criticism. FtK's reply is straight-up emotion with no veneer of pseudo-intellectualism, an honest confession of stance without the pretense of rationalization or justification. And for that I think I should salute her.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,06:35   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2007,16:45)
Quote (Doc Bill @ April 06 2007,23:42)
OK, you made me read the paper, too.

I have a question for FtK.  Dembski published the EF book years ago. What, five years or so?  Or more?

Since Dembski published a means to detect design, and this is a question for FtK, how many designs have been detected or proven by the EF?

There must be ten zillion biological thingies out there that were designed by the Great Designer, He who must not be named and for the sake of this argument I won't invoke the designer.

So, FtK, I'm curious to know what biological systems in the past decade have been proven or even indicated to have been designed based on Dembski's EF.

I know that I'm only a poor chemist but for the life of me I've searched high and low and I can't find a single example.  Not one.  Not a single one.  Not even a whiff.  A snippet.

Educate me, FtK, I sit at your feet.

9 years, and still unused:

http://thesciphishow.com/forums/index.php?topic=114.0

I had a read of the thread you linked to and have the opinion that Jason like most other ID proponents haven't read the Dover transcripts just other's reactions to it. They seem to focus on just the stack of papers and the astrology bits. Anybody who read the entire transcript can see that Behe made an idiot of himself through his entire testimony and I think that the peer review and tonne of dirt moments are even better. It is the funniest read I had all year. Anybody who hasn't read them, you also need to read the examination of the scientists as well before hand as it set's the scene for Behe.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,07:56   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 07 2007,05:28)
FtK's reply is straight-up emotion with no veneer of pseudo-intellectualism, an honest confession of stance without the pretense of rationalization or justification. And for that I think I should salute her.

Yes, occasionally FtK can break out of hypocrisy mode and tell us exactly what she really thinks (e.g. equating "Darwinists" with jerks, and then telling me that she really meant that I was a jerk).

I agree with Wes; this short but sweet critique is honest, and so much more readable than the standard blather about ID, IC, EFs, and all of that other stuff that allows them to talk about God without mentioning him by name.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,08:56   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 07 2007,13:28)
I think that I must defend FtK here. Nobody else on the ID side has said anything that does a substantially better job of responding to Wilkins and Elsberry 2001. Her reply at least avoids the all-too-common obscurantism engaged in by ID creationism advocates when dealing with criticism. FtK's reply is straight-up emotion with no veneer of pseudo-intellectualism, an honest confession of stance without the pretense of rationalization or justification. And for that I think I should salute her.

Ouch.

But I'm sure if she said all that on the witness stand in Dover under oath...the outcome would have been 180 degrees opposite ……to the legally binding precedent that has effectively sunk ID/creationism as science for ALL TIME...... even Dembski acknowledges that. (Thank your god for me FTK)

Ftk inspite of her rabid frothing seems half honest at least.

The best she can hope for now is brow beating the hoi polloi and cheer leading her fundy heroes onto breaking the law.

I’d like to see that DVD *snicker*.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,10:04   

Good grief...would you people mellow out.  I was just playing around.  Truth be told I've only glanced at the paper.  I've been too busy flirting with Richard.

For some insane reason, some of you actually think I'm going to dive in and discuss science with you when I made it extremely clear from the start that I have no intention of doing so.  

I've been there, done that in other forums for years and I've had my fill.  There is not a one of you in these forums who has an inkling of respect for anyone who does not agree with your position in this debate (and many of you seem completely blind to the truth).  That's fine, but I'm certainly not going to come in here and feed your intense and somewhat twisted desire to bash creationists.

I'll read the paper within the next few days because I find this stuff fascinating, but I'll do it when I have time.  I used to immediately read and respond to so much crap thrown at me in another forum that my family darn near disowned me due to my obsession with this topic.  There were usually 10-20 people on average responding to me and I felt compelled to answer every single comment.  Dave can attest to the fact that I like to have the last word on any given subject.  Psycho, I know, but it's just who I am.  

I wouldn't even be here if I hadn't been lured in --  I'm thinkin' you people are out recruiting creationists to munch on, and you send Richard out to find some poor unsuspecting target to lure back into the den.  Now, I find myself attracted to the lure and can't get back out again.

[ps...Kristine, sorry if my last post sounded snippy.  I certainly ~don't~ want you as my enemy.  We gals gotta stick together.  Girl power and all that.  If you be nice to me, I‘ll put in a good word for you next time I talk to Dembski.]

[pss..Louis, just fyi, I am definitely attracted to the swarthy demi-Greek description, but at the moment Richard has my heart.  Though it does sound as if you are the true scientist and he is not, so there is hope for you yet because, truth be told, the real reason I hang out in these forums is that little nerdy science types turn me on.  (Don‘t tell anybody).]

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,10:17   

ftk,

Looking over your blog, it appears that you think Mike Egnor has some good ideas. Now, mostly he seems to be on the Darwin => eugenics train, which is obviously just meant to be bad PR for evolutionary theory. But he has made a couple of scientific claims. For one, he challenges PZ Myers,
Quote
How much new specified information can random variation and natural selection generate? Please note that my question starts with 'how much'- it's quantitative, and it's quantitative about information, not literature citations.

But alas, he goes on to admit that it was a trick question, as he can't identify a way to meaningfully measure biological information:
Quote
My question about the information-generating capacity of RM+NS was rhetorical. I know you can't answer it. Now you know, too. The scientific debate about Darwin/ID turns on the issue of biological complexity. We are still struggling with the issue of how to quantify it. Information content seems the most promising, but, as my question demonstrates, it's deeply problematic. Empirical verification of your claim that RM+NS is sufficient to explain biological complexity is necessary for you your theory to be a 'fact'. As you have so clearly demonstrated, it's not a fact, so far.

Until Egnor can ask a meaningful question, his objections are (tautologically) spurious. Now, I can name new biological functions that can be generated by mutation and selection, and it would seem that this is all that is necessary for evolution to work, regardless of whether or not mathematics can be used to quantify the changes. Do you have any objections to mutation and selection as a viable mechanism for the generation of new biological structures and functions? Our former resident creationist does, but I think you'd be embarrassed to have him as an ally.

--------------
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,10:19   

Ah, the Dembski Dodge.

"Oh, my, look at the time!  Pathetic levels of detail are so boring.  Rhally, they are."  *sound of little feet running into the distance*

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,10:20   

Quote (Ftk @ April 07 2007,11:04)
I wouldn't even be here if I hadn't been lured in --  I'm thinkin' you people are out recruiting creationists to munch on, and you send Richard out to find some poor unsuspecting target to lure back into the den.  Now, I find myself attracted to the lure and can't get back out again.

Yup, you found us out. Richard is our honeypot. Or, more accurately, was our honeypot until you outed him.  Now we are SOL until we can find a new one.  I suppose we could send k.e. out again, but he was never all that successful since he doesn't understand the difference between mysterious and downright incomprehensible.
   
Quote

[ps...Kristine, sorry if my last post sounded snippy.  I certainly ~don't~ want you as my enemy.  We gals gotta stick together.  Girl power and all that.  

Girl power?  Okay, I nickname thee "Fundie Spice"

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,11:14   

Quote (Ftk @ April 07 2007,10:04)
For some insane reason, some of you actually think I'm going to dive in and discuss science with you when I made it extremely clear from the start that I have no intention of doing so.  

I've been there, done that in other forums for years and I've had my fill.  There is not a one of you in these forums who has an inkling of respect for anyone who does not agree with your position in this debate (and many of you seem completely blind to the truth).

Indeed, she has no intention of ever again discussing science with anyone, anywhere. Because if she did try, it would immediately become apparent why she specializes in "smarm and ooze", rather than science...

And you gotta love the projection that is so obvious in that second paragraph!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,11:16   

Phhhh carlsonjok; I've still got it.

Let's give FtK a chance to read the paper and get back to us, then we can have a freindly discussion. I'll also quiz her more about her lingerie.

*pats FtK's arse, playfully*

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,11:21   

Quote
I've been there, done that in other forums for years and I've had my fill.  There is not a one of you in these forums who has an inkling of respect for anyone who does not agree with your position in this debate (and many of you seem completely blind to the truth)


Dare we ask which 'Truth' you're referring to?

Also, could you please tell us which peer-reviewed article(s) you've read, with some proof that you've read them?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2007,12:03   

Quote (Ftk @ April 07 2007,10:04)
 That's fine, but I'm certainly not going to come in here and feed your intense and somewhat twisted desire to bash creationists.

Nice to see that you have the same massive raqging martyr complex that every other fundie seems to have.

Alas, like every other fundie, you seem to have an awfully inflated sense of your own self-importance.

Perhaps you'd care a lot less what everyone thought about you, if you realized how rarely anyone DOES.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
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