RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (23) < [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... >   
  Topic: AF Dave Has More Questions About Apes, Creation/Evolution Debate< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,03:55   

DIFFICULT QUESTIONS REMAIN FOR APE/HUMAN ORIGINS

I appreciate the good information that was exchanged on my "Chimp Chromosome Thread."  I have learned some important information regarding the similarity of the genomes of apes and humans.  I agree that the similarities are quite striking indeed and cannot be dismissed as some Creationists attempt to do.

However, I believe there are a number of major issues which would have to be solved before a scientist could logically adopt the firm position that humans and apes DO IN FACT share a common ancestor.  Of course, I am becoming quite proficient at searching the "Index to Creationist Claims" and the Article DB at Talk Origins now BEFORE posting my questions here, so as not to waste your time.  I will summarize the points of agreement that I share with Neo-Darwinists, then pose my questions.  I have surveyed the various Creationist refutations of common descent for apes and humans and have found most of them to be inadequate.  These inadequacies are spelled out rather nicely by Todd Charles Wood (2006) of the Center for Origins Research at Bryan College in Dayton, Tennessee, who appears from this paper to be a fair-minded creationist.
Wood Article (2006)

Points of Agreement between myself (Wood also) and Common Descent Advocates
(1)  Nucleotide mismatches appear to be very small ~1.5%
(2)  Alignment gaps are also very small ~3-4%
(3)  Human Chromosome 2 does in fact appear to be a result of the fusion of 2 chimp chromosomes
(4)  The pseudogene for Vitamin C production does in fact appear to support common descent theory
(5)  Body similarities are indeed very striking and pose interesting questions
(6)  Many creationist arguments are inadequate.

Summary of Inadequacies of Creationist Responses (Wood)
(1) Similarity pointing to Common Design is inadequate.
Quote
A very popular argument is that similarity does not necessarily indicate common ancestry but could also imply common design (e.g. Batten 1996; Thompson and Harrub 2005; DeWitt 2005). While this is true, the mere fact of similarity is only a small part of the evolutionary argument. Far more important than the mere occurrence of similarity is the kind of similarity observed.(p.7)

(2) Possibility of higher % differences proves nothing.
Quote
More recently, creationists have begun to argue that the similarity between chimpanzees and humans is less – sometimes much less – than claimed by evolutionary biologists (DeWitt 2003, 2005; Criswell 2005; Thompson and Harrub 2005). These arguments are inspired in part by a study by Britten (2002) that concluded that the overall similarity of human and chimpanzee genomes is ~95%. Britten arrived at this greater dissimilarity by including in his calculations not only nucleotide mismatches but also alignment gaps. Creationists also tend to emphasize other important differences between the human and chimpanzee genomes, including the differing chromosome numbers (DeWitt 2003, 2005) and the differences in gene expression in the humans and chimpanzees (Rana 2001).Differences are certainly important, and there are many differences between the human and chimpanzee genomes, as detailed above. However, emphasizing these differences does not resolve the problem of similarity. Even if the chimpanzee genome were more than 5% or 10% different from the human genome, the differences are still vastly outnumbered by the similarities (at least 9 to 1). The major pattern that requires explanation is the surprising degree of genomic similarity, as King and Wilson (1975) noted thirty years ago. (p.9)

(3) There may be NO "Haldane's Dillema" at all.
Quote
Based on a 10% dissimilarity between the human and chimpanzee genomes, Criswell argued that humans and chimpanzees could not have evolved from a common ancestor. Criswell reasoned that if evolution were true, a 10% difference would mean that 300 million mutations had been fixed in the human and chimpanzee genomes, or roughly 150 million mutations in each species. Assuming that the human/chimpanzee last common ancestor lived 5 million years ago (Ma), he calculated that an average of 600 “beneficial mutations” must have been fixed in each generation. He concluded that Haldane’s dilemma prohibits such a large number of mutations fixed by selection.Even conceding his assertion of <90% identity between human and chimpanzee genomes, his argument suffers from some errors. (p.10)


Wood then goes on to propose an intriguing alternative ...
Quote
Despite these shortcomings[of the ReMine Message Theory], it is possible that ReMine’s message theory could be modified to explain biological similarity. Although ReMine (1993, p. 368) claimed that his message theory would be invalidated if the unique, nested hierarchy of organisms was falsified, other interpretations of the biotic message could be consistent with non-nested or non-hierarchical patterns. For example, a network pattern of similarity can also serve as a message because a network pattern has the attributes of language. In written language, a very limited number of letters can be rearranged to form a great number of words, which in turn can be rearranged (following rules of grammar and syntax) to express a virtually unlimited number of ideas. If organisms and their genomes are conveying a message (or messages) from the Creator, we should expect a high degree of repetition, both within and between genomes, because of the nature of language. It is therefore intriguing that the human and chimpanzee genomes contain a high fraction of repetitive DNA and that some of the more significant differences between the genomes are in their repetitive DNA (segmental duplication and transposable element) content. If correct, this line of reasoning would imply that a proper understanding of the similarity of humans and primates would depend on detecting rules of “syntax” and “grammar” in the biotic message and applying them.
Furthermore, a network pattern of similarity resulting from transposition could serve a non-naturalistic function since a network pattern is not expected from tree-like inheritance. ReMine (1993, pp. 342-343) argued that evolution “does not predict a nested hierarchy,” but that is only true if evolution is understood in the broadest possible way to include many different (and potentially contradictory) theories. Specific theories of evolution (like Darwin’s) do predict nested hierarchies. Other theories (e.g. Woese 1998) could be constructed to accommodate widespread transposition, but these arguments are not arguments for common descent. As a result, a network pattern of similarity resist simple explanation by naturalistic theories (although complicated theories of transposition might explain it), thus reinforcing its origin by design.(p.12)


and he asks an important question which serves as an excellent prelude to my own questions ...
Quote
What is a Genome? This might seem like a trivial and self-evident question, but its simplicity hides a deep challenge (Wood 2001). The Bible teaches that God created adult organisms and presumably even complete ecosystems by covering the land with plants. Thus, the Bible favors a holistic perspective of organisms. Modern molecular biology has favored the opposite perspective: that life is the complicated interaction of molecules and that DNA is the “code of life.” If the molecular viewpoint is correct, then the differences between organisms that really matter are indeed the differences in the DNA. If a holistic perspective is correct, then perhaps differences in the DNA are not paramount to understanding organismal differences.Complicating this reasoning is the fact that differences in DNA do indeed cause differences at the organismal level. There is a definite relationship between phenotype and genotype, even though the relationship is not as simple as Mendel might have imagined it. We could understand the genome as a repository of some of the information necessary for the physical composition of the organism (Wood 2001). In that case, far more important than the genome may be its cellular context, which interprets and applies the information stored in the genome. Since some of the cellular context is coded by the genome, we have something of a chicken/egg problem, which can only be resolved by a creation event.The similarity of the human and chimpanzee genomes offers evidence that the genome could primarily be a repository. If the fixed nucleotide mismatches between the chimpanzee and human genomes are 1.06%, then the original nucleotide identity could be as high as 99%. At that high level of similarity, perhaps it is not impossible to believe that God created humans and chimpanzees with identical genomes. The known differences between human and chimpanzee biochemistry (see Varki 2000; Varki and Atheide 2005) may well rule this out, but it is an intriguing possibility. Even at 99% identity, however, the biological and behavioral differences between chimpanzees and humans indicate that the source of these differences is not likely to be found entirely in the genome sequences. Theologically, the high similarity of humans and chimpanzees reinforces our spiritual – not physical (Ecc. 3:18-21) – distinctiveness from the animals. It is the image of God that makes us human not some intrinsically valuable genetic element.(p.12)


This paper by Wood is quite interesting to me and serves well as a prelude to my own questions which I shall now present to you ...

(1) How do we explain the complete lack of 'Hominid Civilizations' (for lack of a better term) today?  It seems to me that if Common Descent Theory is correct, that  we would expect to see numerous 'civilizations' of 'less evolved' humans.  I suppose a hopeful candidate for this type of civilization has been the remote tribes of jungle natives found throughout the world.  However, I have firsthand experience with one such tribe, the Wai-Wai indians of Southern Guyana/Northern Brazil (My father is a Bible Translator for this tribe), and we have observed no evidence of anything 'primitive' about their human characteristics.  To be sure, their civilization and technology was quite primitive (they were basically hunter/gatherers), but their language is every bit as complex as English or Spanish or many other languages (I speak the language some and have a copy of their grammar, which my dad produced).  Their behaviour is in no way 'primitive' for the purpose of determining if they are 'less evolved.'  They laugh, cry, make jokes, tell stories, get mad at one another, read, write, learn foreign languages, play guitars and keyboards, have political battles, and in short do everything that any human society also does.  The main difference is in technology, which of course is not advanced.  As far as I know, there are Apes and there are Humans.  And there are no existing 'in-betweens.'  How do you explain this?

(2) The fossil record of human evolution is unconvincing to me.  Here is the supposed evidence from Talk Origins ...
Quote
Intermediate fossils include
Australopithecus afarensis, from 3.9 to 3.0 million years ago (Mya). Its skull is similar to a chimpanzee's, but with more humanlike teeth. Most (possibly all) creationists would call this an ape, but it was bipedal.
Australopithecus africanus (3 to 2 Mya); its brain size, 420-500 cc, was slightly larger than A. afarensis, and its teeth yet more humanlike.
Homo habilis (2.4 to 1.5 Mya), which is similar to australopithecines, but which used tools and had a larger brain (650-cc average) and less projecting face.
Homo erectus (1.8 to 0.3 Mya); brain size averaged about 900 cc in early H. erectus and 1,100 cc in later ones. (Modern human brains average 1,350 cc.)
A Pleistocene Homo sapiens which was "morphologically and chronologically intermediate between archaic African fossils and later anatomically modern Late Pleistocene humans" (White et al. 2003, 742).
A hominid combining features of, and possibly ancestral to, Neanderthals and modern humans (Bermudez de Castro et al. 1997).
And there are fossils intermediate between these (Foley 1996-2004).
 Do we not have plenty of LIVING HUMANS which could correlate very nicely with some of these fossil finds, but which we now know are completely human?  i.e. Pygmies and 'Aborigines' ?  

(3) Some have claimed that for all practical purposes, we are apes and biologically speaking, I see what they are saying.  But does this not minimize the ENORMOUS non-biological differences?  Humans have highly complex symbolic languages.  Apes probably communicate some, but do they communicate in DIFFERENT LANGUAGES in different parts of the world?  Are there any apes that have learned how to write?  Do apes organize themselves into 'governments' and seek to conquer  other ape groups?  Is there any indication of abstract thinking among the apes?  Is there any evidence of any 'technology' developed by apes?  Even primitive technology?  And this is only the tip of the iceberg with such questions.

(4) Has anyone thought about the implications of an assertion by a government entity that "Apes are 98.5% human and therefore should be afforded certain 'human rights.'"  This would be a silly idea to me of course, but it appears to be a logical conclusion of some evolutionist thinking.

(5) Was not Adolf Hitler affected by current evolutionary thinking when he came up with his "Aryan Master Race" theory?  I believe he was, and why shouldn't he have been?  Isn't it logical to assume that some races might be 'less evolved' than others if human evolution is true?  How about slavery?  Did not many whites view themselves as 'more evolved' than blacks, thus justifying their ownership and ill treatment of slaves?  And if human evolution is true, why would Hitler and slave owners be wrong in their actions?  After all, we 'enslave' chimps in zoos and we do medical experiments resulting in the death of lab rats.  Why should we not do the same with 'less evolved' humans?

My conclusion then is that in spite of striking genome similarities, humans and the apes are VERY DIFFERENT in many important ways.  All the evidence that I have seen so far is explained in a much better way by the Biblical assertion that mankind was made "in the image of God."  It appears to me also that Neo-Darwininsts are not even close to being able to answer ANY of the above questions in a satisfactory manner.  But maybe you will prove me wrong.

OK.  That should do it for starters.  I welcome your comments.

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:00   

Quote
It appears to me also that Neo-Darwininsts are not even close to being able to answer ANY of the above questions in a satisfactory manner.  
When someone completely ignorant of biology, doesn't agree with the biology experts, it really suggests to us that the experts are wrong.

Oh wait, it doesn't.

   
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:08   

Quote
How do we explain the complete lack of 'Hominid Civilizations'

We killed them. Them as in Neanderthals.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:15   

Quote
(5) Was not Adolf Hitler affected by current evolutionary thinking when he came up with his "Aryan Master Race" theory?  I believe he was, and why shouldn't he have been?  Isn't it logical to assume that some races might be 'less evolved' than others if human evolution is true?  How about slavery?  Did not many whites view themselves as 'more evolved' than blacks, thus justifying their ownership and ill treatment of slaves?  And if human evolution is true, why would Hitler and slave owners be wrong in their actions?  After all, we 'enslave' chimps in zoos and we do medical experiments resulting in the death of lab rats.  Why should we not do the same with 'less evolved' humans?


The 'Hitler = Darwin' equation has been tried out by every creationist for the last 60 years. It's bullshit. Start here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA006_1.html

Please go back and try again. You don't want to make Christians look stupid, do you?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:17   

Oops, I should have read farther, I see the thread's already been Godwined. Sorry, you lose afdave!

  
thurdl01



Posts: 99
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:20   

Quote (afdave @ May 08 2006,09:55)
I am becoming quite proficient at searching the "Index to Creationist Claims" and the Article DB at Talk Origins now BEFORE posting my questions here, so as not to waste your time.

And yet, you chose to trot out Hitler anyway?

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:20   

Sorry, you lost me when this question:
Quote
What is a Genome?

was answered with
Quote
The Bible teaches...


"What is the Bernoulli effect? Well, the Bible teaches..."

Sounds kinda dumb, doesn't it?

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
ltracey



Posts: 4
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:26   

Do we not have plenty of LIVING HUMANS which could correlate very nicely with some of these fossil finds, but which we now know are completely human?  i.e. Pygmies and 'Aborigines' ?


Whoa, I seriously cannot believe we just saw another instance of "why are there still pygmies and dwarves?".

The mind wobbles...

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:29   

Quote (afdave @ May 08 2006,08:55)
Isn't it logical to assume that some races might be 'less evolved' than others if human evolution is true?

Not really.

The most evolved life forms on our planet are probably bacteria and virii. They go through more generations and mutations in shorter time periods.

There is no such thing as "less evolved" or "more evolved" in the context you want to use them. There is only more fit or less fit to the niche you find yourself living in.

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:39   

Quote (afdave @ May 08 2006,08:55)
Are there any apes that have learned how to write?

Just some notes  on primate language use:

http://www.koko.org/
http://www.koko.org/world/signlanguage.html
Koko has a sign language vocabulary of over 1000 words, which she uses in complex statements and questions. Most of these signs are standard American Sign Language (ASL), but some are either invented or slightly modified by Koko to form what we call Gorilla Sign Langue (GSL), or "Gorilla Speak."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-08-09-koko-gorilla_x.htm
More Koko news.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/publica....eys.cfm
some researchers have suggested that primate "talk" may show evidence of "syntax" and/or "semantics" in a loose sense.

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:44   

http://www.hhmi.org/news/lahn4.html

Quote
Human Brain Is Still Evolving

Howard Hughes Medical Institute researchers who have analyzed sequence variations in two genes that regulate brain size in human populations have found evidence that the human brain is still evolving.

They speculate that if the human species continues to survive, the human brain may continue to evolve, driven by the pressures of natural selection. Their data suggest that major variants in these genes arose at roughly the same times as the origin of culture in human populations as well as the advent of agriculture and written language.

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:49   

Arden Chatfield said ...
Quote
The 'Hitler = Darwin' equation has been tried out by every creationist for the last 60 years. It's bullshit. Start here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA006_1.html

I did and it is extremely weak.

Then go look here for a much stronger case.

The Holocaust and Darwinism


Quote
Hitler was especially determined to prevent Aryans from breeding with non-Aryans, a concern that eventually resulted in the ‘final solution’. Once the inferior races were exterminated, Hitler believed that future generations would be eternally grateful for the improvement that his programs brought to humanity:

‘The Germans were the higher race, destined for a glorious evolutionary future. For this reason it was essential that the Jews should be segregated, otherwise mixed marriages would take place. Were this to happen, all nature’s efforts “to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being may thus be rendered futile” (Mein Kampf).’ 20

Individuals are not only far less important than the race, but the Nazis concluded that certain races were not human, but were animals:

‘The Jews, labelled subhumans, became nonbeings. It was both legal and right to exterminate them in the collectivist and evolutionist viewpoint. They were not considered … persons in the sight of the German government.’ 34

As a result, the Darwinist movement was ‘one of the most powerful forces in the nineteenth–twentieth centuries German intellectual history [and] may be fully understood as a prelude to the doctrine of national socialism [Nazism]’.35 Why did evolution catch hold in Germany faster, and take a firmer hold there than any other place in the world?


But OK.  You don't want to accept this?  What about the other questions?

Ltracey said ...
Quote
Whoa, I seriously cannot believe we just saw another instance of "why are there still pygmies and dwarves?".


That's not what I am saying.  I am saying if a pygmy or some LIVING HUMAN that is not the same size or shape as the mean average of all humans, could not the fossil it made be virtually indistinguishable from the supposed human ancestor fossils found at Talk Origins.

I'm saying that if certain LIVING HUMANS and LIVING APES died, we might easily have the same fossil situation that we currently do have.  Is this not correct?

Tom Ames said ...
Quote
"What is the Bernoulli effect? Well, the Bible teaches..."  Sounds kinda dumb, doesn't it?

Sure, THAT does.  But you are distorting what the paragraph says.  Read the context.  What Wood is saying is "What is a Genome?  It is something worth studying, no question.  But is the Genome going to explain the real differences?  No.  There are differences which have to be accounted for by means OTHER THAN Genome studies."

Remember, that I and apparently Wood view the Bible as a SOURCE FOR PLAUSIBLE HYPOTHESES.  I also believe in Biblical inerrancy.  But this is a separate issue which must be proven on its own merits.  Biblical inerrancy has nothing to do with the issue you just raised.

Norm said ...
Quote
The most evolved life forms on our planet are probably bacteria and virii. They go through more generations and mutations in shorter time periods.

There is no such thing as "less evolved" or "more evolved" in the context you want to use them. There is only more fit or less fit to the niche you find yourself living in.

This is an amazing statement to me.  Do most of you guys really believe this?

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
W. Kevin Vicklund



Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:57   

(1) Elimination by competition.  Your concept of less-evolved is inaccurate - "primitive" tribes should be just as evolved as we are.  They may have evolved slightly differently, but not enough to be reproductively isolated in the elapsed time since divergence.  The fact that they are so similar is strong indication that the core aspects of what make us human had fully evolved before they split off.

(2) No.  The features are in fact quite different.

(3) The non-biological differences arise from two genetic traits basically unique to humans - the ability to efficiently move without using our arms and the capacity for extensive abstract thought.  Yes.  There is one ape (at least) that has learned to sign.  Yes.  Some, but not extensive.  Yes, but very primitive.

(4) That's a question for society at large to answer.

(5) No, and this is a violation of Godwin's Law.  Just because there are natural trends, does not mean that it is imperative that we follow those trends - part of our evolutionary advantage is the ability to change the environment and the selective pressures, and another part is our concept of ethics and morals.  No - again, you are entirely incorrect in your concept of evolution.  Every individual in a generation is just as evolved as the rest of its generation.  We are in fact less evolved than most apes, since they have a shorter generation period, and significantly less evolved than bacteria, speaking strictly from a evolutionary standpoint.  Evolutionary theory does not provide any support for the arguments you try to make.  These are issues for society, not science, to resolve.

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:59   

http://www.istc.cnr.it/showabstract.php?bibid=27
Evidence for primates' understanding of causality is presented and discussed.

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi....7.1.301
Cultural primatology is hypothesized on the basis of social learning of group-specific behavior by nonhuman primates...

http://www.massey.ac.nz/~alock/hbook/section2.htm
Our near relatives, the chimpanzees and bonobos, have male-bonded societies in which females migrate between troops, and individuals leave and rejoin the group. This means an individual potentially has private information it could share or withhold. Vocalizations of monkeys, and probably apes, contain semantic detail about social relations as well as external threats. Chimpanzees give food-calls in the wild which attract others; in captivity they can lead others to hidden food, and convey its quality.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,04:59   

Quote
There is no such thing as "less evolved" or "more evolved" in the context you want to use them. There is only more fit or less fit to the niche you find yourself living in.
Quote
This is an amazing statement to me.  Do most of you guys really believe this?
Is there some reason not to?

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Joe the Ordinary Guy



Posts: 18
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:01   

Dave, I am not a scientist, but I’ll offer my understanding of the answers to your questions:

Quote
(1) How do we explain the complete lack of 'Hominid Civilizations' (for lack of a better term) today?  It seems to me that if Common Descent Theory is correct, that  we would expect to see numerous 'civilizations' of 'less evolved' humans.

Why should Common Descent produce “Hominid Civilizations”? There’s no reason to assume that this would be the case. The other way of looking at it, of course, is that the ape groups that DO exist ARE the “Hominid Civilizations” you are speculating, but they aren’t quite as advanced as what you imagined.

Quote
(2) The fossil record of human evolution is unconvincing to me.

I’ll leave this one to those who are better qualified to comment on it. (See how that works?)

Quote
(3) Some have claimed that for all practical purposes, we are apes and biologically speaking, I see what they are saying.  But does this not minimize the ENORMOUS non-biological differences?

No, it does not. The biological differences are the biological differences and the NON-biological differences are the NON-biological differences. We categorize them differently so that they can be studied appropriately. No one here will argue that an ape is a human. Apes are apes. Humans are human. They are similar in some respects, but different in others. That's all.

Quote
(4) Has anyone thought about the implications of an assertion by a government entity that "Apes are 98.5% human and therefore should be afforded certain 'human rights.'"  This would be a silly idea to me of course, but it appears to be a logical conclusion of some evolutionist thinking.

This would be a silly idea to me, too. If someone arrived at this conclusion by extrapolating from evolution, I’d describe it as “wrong”.

Quote
(5) Was not Adolf Hitler affected by current evolutionary thinking when he came up with his "Aryan Master Race" theory?

Sure he was. But, as above, I think most people would describe him as “wrong”; he MISINTERPRETED evolutionary theory and arrived at bad conclusions. Wasn’t he also a Christian? Would you say he followed Christian precepts correctly?

Quote
Isn't it logical to assume that some races might be 'less evolved' than others if human evolution is true?

Not withstanding the fact that there is no "more" or "less" evolved, why yes, it WOULD be logical to assume that there might be some differences between races. What makes science nice is that it does not STOP there, but goes on to say: “Let’s investigate it further and do some research to see if it is, in fact, true.” Oh, look. The evidence shows that the differences between the various races are negligible, and that their abilities are essentially identical. Huh. I guess that makes it an instance of "Things are not always what you expect."

Quote
My conclusion then is that in spite of striking genome similarities, humans and the apes are VERY DIFFERENT in many important ways.

My, what a strikingly insightful conclusion that is. No one will disagree with that statement, Dave. It is self-evident. It is your next line…
Quote
All the evidence that I have seen so far is explained in a much better way by the Biblical assertion that mankind was made "in the image of God."

…that the reality-based people here will take issue with.

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:04   

I said ...
Quote
That's not what I am saying.  I am saying if a pygmy or some LIVING HUMAN that is not the same size or shape as the mean average of all humans, could not the fossil it made be virtually indistinguishable from the supposed human ancestor fossils found at Talk Origins.

I'm saying that if certain LIVING HUMANS and LIVING APES died, we might easily have the same fossil situation that we currently do have.  Is this not correct?


Oops.  Let's try that again ...

That's not what I am saying.  I am saying if a pygmy or some LIVING HUMAN that is not the same size or shape as the mean average of all humans DIED, could not the fossil it made be virtually indistinguishable from the supposed human ancestor fossils found at Talk Origins??

I'm saying that if certain LIVING HUMANS and LIVING APES died, we might easily have the same fossil situation that we currently do have.  Is this not correct?

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
W. Kevin Vicklund



Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:08   

Quote
Norm said ...
[quote]
The most evolved life forms on our planet are probably bacteria and virii. They go through more generations and mutations in shorter time periods.

There is no such thing as "less evolved" or "more evolved" in the context you want to use them. There is only more fit or less fit to the niche you find yourself living in.


This is an amazing statement to me.  Do most of you guys really believe this?[/quote]

It doesn't matter whether or not we believe this.  It is an inescapable consequence of evolution.  Therefore, you can't invoke evolutionary theory to support your arguments in the context you are using.  Not with any honesty, at least.

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:12   

More on Koko:
Quote
Koko has a great sense of humour. When asked the colour of her white towel over and over again, she eventually got bored and signed the word ‘red’. When asked again, she replied ‘red’ twice more! Then she carefully picked a piece of red thread off the towel and laughed, saying ‘red’ again.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:13   

Quote
No one here will argue that an ape is a human. Apes are apes. Humans are human. They are similar in some respects, but different in others. That's all.
Much as no one here will argue that mammals are humans. I, however, would argue that humans are one of the 5 surviving species of great apes.

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:14   

Dave, this is not germaine to your post but I have to ask a creationist who takes himself seriously.  Creationists bandy about all the time about there being gaps in evolutionary theory.  They could be referring to places where our understanding is lacking or we have insufficient ideas to test but, of course, what they are really refering to are the gaps in the fossil evidence.  What I wanted to ask you was what are we suppose to make of the non-gaps(I don't know what else to call a non-gap, maybe evidence woudl be a good name, but if anyone has an idea please do tell) in the fossil evidence?  You know, the places that make all those gaps the creationists complain about possible.  All that evidence has to mean something.  Especially since the evidence between the gaps shows such flow(again a bad word but the only one I could think of) between features and anytime a new piece of evidence is found it fits into the flow just as we would expect it to.  Focusing only on the gaps gives the lopsided picture that the gaps are all that is important, but as I said above without the evidence there would be no gaps; or, rephrased, all of prehistory would would be one giant gap.  And if creationism was true(especially YEC) that is all we would expect.  One giant gap.  Why can't creationists get that?

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:15   

Quote (afdave @ May 08 2006,09:49)
Norm said ...
Quote
The most evolved life forms on our planet are probably bacteria and virii. They go through more generations and mutations in shorter time periods.

There is no such thing as "less evolved" or "more evolved" in the context you want to use them. There is only more fit or less fit to the niche you find yourself living in.


This is an amazing statement to me.  Do most of you guys really believe this?

Yes. The fact that you don't indicates that you have a profound misunderstanding of what evolution is.

You seem to think that human intelligence is some sort of goal in evolution. It's not. There is no goal except for an organism's instinct to survive and reproduce itself. Brains won't be of use to all.

It's not the difference in genes that makes a primitive society primitive. It's the evolution of the society which is not genetic,  but memetic.

Take Newton and Einstein and transplant them as infants into a caveman society or an Amazon tribe and they would never have accomplished what they did. They might or might not have had an edge in chipping stones to make axe heads but calculus and relativity were built on knowledge that was evolving within society, not genes.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:18   

Quote

This is an amazing statement to me.  Do most of you guys really believe this?
Anybody with at least a freshman understanding of biology knows this. That would not include you.

   
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:21   

Maybe someone should patiently explain that human social structures have always been heirarchies. Heirarchies mean someone is at the top of the heap. Those at the top of the heap are always seeking to justify their position somehow. Before Darwin, kings and nobles and lords and such were divinely appointed. In other words, religious justifications were used.

After Darwin, a new possibility was raised: that those at the top of the social pyramid deserved to be there for natural reasons rather than religious reasons. There has never been ANY doubt by those at the top that their position is deserved. So these "natural" justifications have been deployed both by nations (as in Germany) and by scientists (searching for natural explanations for why the French are superior to the Germans or vice versa (depending on who's doing the study), or why whites are superior to blacks (again depending on who's doing the study). In brief, it fell out of fashion for those born into privilege to say God put them there, and into fashion to say they are "more evolved" and rose to the top from sheer innate superiority.

Neither the religious nor the natural explanation has anything to do with Darwin or evolution, of course. It's all about *staying on top*.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:34   

Ah yes, where would creationists be without comparisons of Hitler and Darwin? And where would they be without AIG?

Okay, Dave try answering this.

Adolf Hitler was a Christian. Catholic, in fact. The great majority of Nazis were Christians of some kind. Hitler frequently rationalized his attitudes towards 'racial purity' by appeals to Jesus and God. From this, one could conclude that a natural consequence of Christianity is murdering Jews. You presumably disagree. So do I. But why is this any less reasonable than your logic? It's FAR EASIER to find statements by the Nazis invoking Jesus for what they did than invoking Darwin.

Quote

This is an amazing statement to me.  Do most of you guys really believe this?


Yes. If you weren't ignorant of evolutionary biology and how the scientific process works, this wouldn't shock you. If you want to rationalize your ideas by appeals to more than Christian apologetics, you have to try harder.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:36   

Norm said ...
Quote
Human Brain Is Still Evolving

Howard Hughes Medical Institute researchers who have analyzed sequence variations in two genes that regulate brain size in human populations have found evidence that the human brain is still evolving.

They speculate that if the human species continues to survive, the human brain may continue to evolve, driven by the pressures of natural selection. Their data suggest that major variants in these genes arose at roughly the same times as the origin of culture in human populations as well as the advent of agriculture and written language.


and he also said this ...
Quote
You seem to think that human intelligence is some sort of goal in evolution. It's not. There is no goal except for an organism's instinct to survive and reproduce itself. Brains won't be of use to all. ... and ... The most evolved life forms on our planet are probably bacteria and virii. They go through more generations and mutations in shorter time periods.
There is no such thing as "less evolved" or "more evolved" in the context you want to use them. There is only more fit or less fit to the niche you find yourself living in.


These seem to be contradictory statements to me.  On the one hand you seem to be saying that the brain is evolving (I assume this means humans are getting smarter), then on the other hand you say that bacteria are the most 'evolved' ???

Let me just explain that MY conception is this:

MORE EVOLVED=More Intelligent and More Abilities.  For example, apes can walk, climb, eat, drink, sleep, communicate in a limited way, etc.  Humans can of course do all these things and much more including blow all the rest of life on Planet Earth to smithereens.  This is what I'M talking about.  

If you want me to use a new term so I don't confuse your minds, please suggest one.

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:42   

How about you go get a high-school biology textbook and shut up for a while.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:50   

Quote
These seem to be contradictory statements to me.  On the one hand you seem to be saying that the brain is evolving (I assume this means humans are getting smarter), then on the other hand you say that bacteria are the most 'evolved'  


You really think this is a 'contradiction'? ? ?

PLEASE go get some education (not from Answers in Genesis) and come back in 6-12 months.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,05:59   

Quote
How about you go get a high-school biology textbook and shut up for a while.

PLEASE go get some education (not from Answers in Genesis) and come back in 6-12 months.


Out of answers and energy, perhaps?  I'm starting to make sense and you are frustrated?  Maybe evolutionary explanations are not so great as they once seemed to you?  But you still want to hang onto them because you have your life invested in them?

Hmmmm ....

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2006,06:00   

Yay!  Godwinned!

Which allows me to throw in this tidbit:

The anti-semitic attitudes that allowed for various attrocities - including the Holocaust - came directly from Christianity.  The notion that Hitler just came up with the idea of killing off jews all on his own is simply absurd.  Christians had been discriminating against and killing jews for well over a thousand years before Hitler was born.  Hitler was just continuing a popular tradition, and adding his own spin to the process.

Linking any theory of evolution to the Holocaust is a tremendous stretch, and ultimately a useless exercise.  If you are looking for an ideology to blame, you need look no further than Christianity.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
  685 replies since May 08 2006,03:55 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (23) < [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]