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Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2011,23:19   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,16:37)
 

You now seem to be confusing reaction and decay.



Er, what reaction exactly?  There is none proposed for what those papers claim except stuff they made up to explain something which probably does not exist.

You also mentioned stability which has bupkis to do with decay modes.

U-238 has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, alpha decay.
Rn-212, 24 min, alpha
Se-82, 10^20 years, beta
Po-219  <300 nanosecond, beta decay.

You are confused, I have focused only on mechanisms of decay (alpha, beta, gamma), the fundamental forces involved (and particles), lack of foundations for claims of observation of variation with solar orbit, lack of an mechanism based on solar orbit that would affect the alpha, beta or gamma via the fundamental forces.

   
Quote

 You first asked how the sun could effect the strong nuclear binding force of a alpha decaying isotope and I told you that the force doesnt necessarily make them less vulnerable to reaction. In fact, alpha radioisotopes are often the most vulnerable to reaction.


You're babbling - what reactions, and how would they depend on distance from the sun?

   
Quote
On the other hand if  protons and neutrons can be rearranged inside the nucleus by deuterium tunneling and if cosmic rays and/or quantum tunneling can greatly effect reaction rates of radioisotopes and fission, its logical that it can also effect decay rates.


More babble, and IFs with no evidence.  What would be logical is something that would change what is going in in the nuclear decay that is related to solar orbit.  So, what goes on in the sun - OUT.  What goes on elsewhere in space - OUT.  What changes with orbit is the distance and variation of neutrino flux is quite clearly evident there. Alas for you, neutrinos don't affect decay rates.  

   
Quote
Actually its called quantum physics. You and your sun god priests love fantasizing about mutationism but when someone talks logically about a mutation that can effect your scriptures, the whole congregation starts foaming at the mouth


Now you're babbling about something that is wholly unrelated to orbital influences on radioactive decay rates.
   
Quote

   
Quote
No answer to why alpha decay should be affected, eh? This group seeing variation in decay rates is seeing variation in alpha and beta decay.  The fact that alpha should not be affected at all casts doubt that this is not just observational artifact for ALL the results.


Radium decays alpha, beta, and gamma and Princeton and Purdue show that the decay rates do change


The continued absence of answer is glaringly obvious.

Radium-???  There are these things called "isotopes".  Look it up.

Actually, these are currently unverified claims.  You keep credulously repeating them, because you are an IDiot.  There is a long history of a seasonal variation in measurement of decay rates, that does not mean it is real instead of instrument sensitivity to winter vs summer climate.  That is why other experiments using different measurement techniques are important.   Others have done this, with the result being - NO VARIATION.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2011,23:44   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,12:07)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Nov. 12 2011,21:03)
Wow the word salad really comes out when they lose the argument doesn't it.

"Again, the fluctuations, assumptions, circular calibrations, contaminations, religious fervor, etc etc etc make your radiomagic dating a joke."

He has stated this and except for a 0.5% possible issue with fluctuations he has failed to show any other issues with dating.


"Again, No because its only a "part" of the reason that your dating is way off"

So why the feck lead with the issue that only results in a 0.5% error. This is like the Mt St Helens thing - He has these magical super-secret proofs, but he trots out the tired old creationist carnards.

Actually I already went over that stuff but y'all only want to discuss this new finding on fluctuating decay rates

We must have all blinked and missed it because anything you have said has well and truly been refuted.

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2011,23:54   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,10:47)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 12 2011,18:25)
Hey forastero, here's a reply, also published in Radiocarbon to your Keenan article.

http://dendro.cornell.edu/article....02c.pdf

I'll just add that Manning et. al. has another (minimum) 15 peer-reviewed articles published specifically discussing radiocarbon dating AFTER 2002.  Further, if you go to Manning's home page, there are at least three articles discussing radiocarbon calibration, at least two discussing the tree-ring dating and radiocarbon dating, and one article discussing what we know and don't know about radiocarbon dates.  Most of these were also published in Radiocarbon.

Feel free to read them all and learn what's going on from an actual scientist, but do start with the response to Keenan's paper.

Enjoy.

There be skullduggery goings on with yur pirates
http://www.centuries.co.uk/uluburu....run.pdf c14

Yes a scientist is taken to task by other scientists when he can't backup his conclusions. This shows that if there was anything wrong systematically with dating methods some scientists will be onto it straight away.

This is extremely bad for your case as it shows for science to be open to examination

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,00:17   

Quote (Cubist @ Nov. 12 2011,19:21)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,18:25)
Hey it was those unromantically rude dudes who  doubted Troy, Babylon, Atlantis, Nineveh, and Nimrud too

forastero, there's an Abbott & Costello routine that's very appropriate here...
Quote
Costello: They said Newton was crazy! They said Einstein was crazy! They said Luigi was crazy!
Abbott: Hold on a second. Who's Luigi?
Costello: Oh, Luigi's my uncle. He is crazy.

You YECs are crazy like Luigi, not crazy like Einstein.

Hmm..sounds like some of those German documentaries of the 1930s-40s

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,00:49   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 12 2011,21:41)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,21:44)
Again, No because its only a "part" of the reason that your dating is way off.

("Again?" LOL!)

So, it is NOT your belief that "accumulative" errors in radiometric dating techniques are sufficient to account for a finding for the age of the earth that is 227,000x that of your wishful fiction.

Stated another way, you concede that, even given worst case inaccuracy, the radiometric evidence continues to indicate that the earth is significantly older than your wishful fiction of 20,000 years.

You don't credit that evidence "because its only a 'part' of the reason that your dating is way off." But stay with the radiometric data another moment.

Given your concession that the errors you cite in radiometric dating of the age of the earth do NOT account for the entirety of the 227,000 to 1 ratio of the scientific estimate versus your wishful fiction, what percentage of error DO you allege?

Do errors in radiometric dating result in an overstatement of the age of the earth by 1%, in which case the earth is actually 4.49 billion years old?  By 10%, indicating an earth of 4.08 billion years? By 50%, giving 2.27 billion years, more than 110,000x your Biblically derived age? By 90 percent, indicating an earth that is 22,700x older than your wishful fiction?

If corrected dating techniques were to indicate that the earth is 22,700x more ancient than your Biblically motivated surmise, would you conclude that the radiometric evidence supports your Biblical view of the age of the earth?  

Whichever number you arrive at, please justify it in terms of the literature you cite. To date the most generous estimate of possible error is 1/2 of 1%.
Quote
Btw, being obtuse is just another hand waving excuse to not put up your intellectual dukes

I posed this question nine times over two solid days before you muttered your response. Enough said.

ETA: a more accurate quote.

I think think the scientist plum lie a lot, including to themselves just like many of you


The decay rate topic didnt even come up until November 7th and I answered you the very next morning so you are believing your own faulty hype.

Btw, it came up after Ogre insisted that there was no evidence for fluctuating decay rates. Then when I proved the evidence, he suddenly claimed to have known about it all along, which is just lack of integrity

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,00:56   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Nov. 12 2011,23:54)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,10:47)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 12 2011,18:25)
Hey forastero, here's a reply, also published in Radiocarbon to your Keenan article.

http://dendro.cornell.edu/article....02c.pdf

I'll just add that Manning et. al. has another (minimum) 15 peer-reviewed articles published specifically discussing radiocarbon dating AFTER 2002.  Further, if you go to Manning's home page, there are at least three articles discussing radiocarbon calibration, at least two discussing the tree-ring dating and radiocarbon dating, and one article discussing what we know and don't know about radiocarbon dates.  Most of these were also published in Radiocarbon.

Feel free to read them all and learn what's going on from an actual scientist, but do start with the response to Keenan's paper.

Enjoy.

There be skullduggery goings on with yur pirates
http://www.centuries.co.uk/uluburu....run.pdf c14

Yes a scientist is taken to task by other scientists when he can't backup his conclusions. This shows that if there was anything wrong systematically with dating methods some scientists will be onto it straight away.

This is extremely bad for your case as it shows for science to be open to examination

Another case in point of you seeing a "scandal" as integrity which indicates either the dishonest propaganda and/or delusional denial

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,01:01   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,18:19)
Btw 2, its ironic that this new age radioactive religion  is used to make up chronologies that attempt dismiss certain biblical chronologies, is believed to be the source of a mutationism to in an attempt to replace Creationism, is based on particles named after the demons (ancient god-kings) who killed off God's Creation, is used to make weapons that can destroy whats left of Creation?

There's your problem right there: demons. They'll get ya every time. 227,000x. 227001x, whatever it takes. Call Father Merrin and Father Karras, tell them we have an extraordinary case.

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,01:27   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 12 2011,16:45)
Is it your belief that sources of error such as the alleged 0.5% radiometric fluctuations (and all other alleged similar errors) are of sufficient magnitude to result in estimated ages, such as the age of the earth, that are 227,000x the actual values?

Maybe forastero is going ""by the Book", following the regulation that bans uncoded messages on open channels, wherein "hours could seem like days" in order to fool the demons, especially the one named
"KHAAAAAAAANN!!!!"

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,01:42   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Nov. 12 2011,23:19)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,16:37)
 

You now seem to be confusing reaction and decay.



Er, what reaction exactly?  There is none proposed for what those papers claim except stuff they made up to explain something which probably does not exist.

You also mentioned stability which has bupkis to do with decay modes.

U-238 has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, alpha decay.
Rn-212, 24 min, alpha
Se-82, 10^20 years, beta
Po-219  <300 nanosecond, beta decay.

You are confused, I have focused only on mechanisms of decay (alpha, beta, gamma), the fundamental forces involved (and particles), lack of foundations for claims of observation of variation with solar orbit, lack of an mechanism based on solar orbit that would affect the alpha, beta or gamma via the fundamental forces.

     
Quote

 You first asked how the sun could effect the strong nuclear binding force of a alpha decaying isotope and I told you that the force doesnt necessarily make them less vulnerable to reaction. In fact, alpha radioisotopes are often the most vulnerable to reaction.


You're babbling - what reactions, and how would they depend on distance from the sun?

     
Quote
On the other hand if  protons and neutrons can be rearranged inside the nucleus by deuterium tunneling and if cosmic rays and/or quantum tunneling can greatly effect reaction rates of radioisotopes and fission, its logical that it can also effect decay rates.


More babble, and IFs with no evidence.  What would be logical is something that would change what is going in in the nuclear decay that is related to solar orbit.  So, what goes on in the sun - OUT.  What goes on elsewhere in space - OUT.  What changes with orbit is the distance and variation of neutrino flux is quite clearly evident there. Alas for you, neutrinos don't affect decay rates.  

   
Quote
Actually its called quantum physics. You and your sun god priests love fantasizing about mutationism but when someone talks logically about a mutation that can effect your scriptures, the whole congregation starts foaming at the mouth


Now you're babbling about something that is wholly unrelated to orbital influences on radioactive decay rates.
     
Quote

   
Quote
No answer to why alpha decay should be affected, eh? This group seeing variation in decay rates is seeing variation in alpha and beta decay.  The fact that alpha should not be affected at all casts doubt that this is not just observational artifact for ALL the results.


Radium decays alpha, beta, and gamma and Princeton and Purdue show that the decay rates do change


The continued absence of answer is glaringly obvious.

Radium-???  There are these things called "isotopes".  Look it up.

Actually, these are currently unverified claims.  You keep credulously repeating them, because you are an IDiot.  There is a long history of a seasonal variation in measurement of decay rates, that does not mean it is real instead of instrument sensitivity to winter vs summer climate.  That is why other experiments using different measurement techniques are important.   Others have done this, with the result being - NO VARIATION.

Google radioisotope and "reaction" rate and nuclear force and activation energy and you will how they tie together  

“They [Jenkins et al.] discovered that a spike in X-ray flux associated with the flare roughly coincided with a dip in the manganese’s decay rate. Two days later, an X-ray spike from a second solar flare coincided with another, though very faint, dip. Then, on 17 December, a third X-ray spike accompanied yet another dip, which was more prominent (see above figure).”  
http://physicsworld.com/cws....08

John Barrow of Cambridge University. “It’s a gigantic effect…It sounds as though it’s related [to solar activity], but it really can’t be.”
http://physicsworld.com/cws....08  

Peter Sturrock, Stanford professor emeritus of applied physics “ knew from long experience that the intensity of the barrage of neutrinos the sun continuously sends racing toward Earth varies on a regular basis as the sun itself revolves and shows a different face, like a slower version of the revolving light on a police car. His advice to Purdue: Look for evidence that the changes in radioactive decay on Earth vary with the rotation of the sun. “That’s what I suggested. And that’s what we have done.”
http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breakin....lements

Power spectrum analyses of nuclear decay rate Astroparticle Physics
Volume 34, Issue 3, October 2010 Stanford University
Ra decay reported by an experiment performed at the Physikalisch–Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB) in Germany. All three data sets exhibit the same primary frequency mode consisting of an annual period. Additional spectral comparisons of the data to local ambient temperature, atmospheric pressure, relative humidity, Earth–Sun distance, and their reciprocals were performed. No common phases were found between the factors investigated and those exhibited by the nuclear decay data. This suggests that either a combination of factors was responsible, or that, if it was a single factor,
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science....0001234

Purdue paediatrician Ephraim Fischbach. “What our data are showing is that the half lives, or the decay constants, are apparently not fundamental constants of nature, but appear to be affected by solar activity,” “To summarize, what we are showing is that the decay constant is not really a constant.”
http://physicsworld.com/cws....08

Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance Jere H. Jenkins, Ephraim Fischbach Purdue University
http://arxiv.org/abs....08.3283

“It's one of the most basic concepts in all of chemistry: Radioactive elements decay at a onstant rate. If that weren't the case, carbon-14 dating wouldn't tell us anything reliable about the age of archaeological materials, and every chemotherapy treatment would be a gamble. It's such a fundamental assumption that scientists don't even bother testing it anymore. That's why researchers had to stumble upon this discovery in the most unlikely of ways……That's when they [Purdue University] discovered something strange. The data produced gave random numbers for the individual atoms, yes, but the overall decay wasn't constant, flying in the face of the accepted rules of chemistry.”
http://io9.com/5619954....emistry

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,07:27   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,01:49)
I think think the scientist plum lie a lot, including to themselves just like many of you


The decay rate topic didnt even come up until November 7th and I answered you the very next morning so you are believing your own faulty hype.

Btw, it came up after Ogre insisted that there was no evidence for fluctuating decay rates. Then when I proved the evidence, he suddenly claimed to have known about it all along, which is just lack of integrity

This will be a more efficient conversation if you forgo the part where you flatly ignore a difficult question four or five times, as well the part where you mutter something irrelevant into your sleeve another three. This response counts as three sleeve-mutterings, so I'm optimistic that we can now get down to the actual question:

Given your concession that the errors you cite in radiometric dating of the age of the earth do NOT account for the entirety of the 227,000 to 1 ratio of the scientific estimate of the age of the earth versus your wishful fiction, what percentage of error DO you allege?

Do errors in radiometric dating result in an overstatement of the age of the earth by 1%, in which case the earth is actually 4.49 billion years old?  By 10%, indicating an earth of 4.08 billion years? By 50%, giving 2.27 billion years, more than 110,000x your Biblically derived age? By 90 percent, indicating an earth that is 22,700x older than your wishful fiction?

If corrected dating techniques were to indicate that the earth is 22,700x more ancient than your Biblically motivated surmise, would you conclude that the radiometric evidence supports your Biblical view of the age of the earth?  

Whichever number you arrive at, please justify it in terms of the literature you cite. To date the most generous estimate of possible error is 1/2 of 1%, so you've a long way to go.

(I do accept your reply as a tacit admission that the literature does not remotely support your devoutly-to-be-wished-for 20,000 year earth. OOoooo, lying scientists! That's why nothing fits!)

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,07:39   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,00:49)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 12 2011,21:41)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,21:44)
Again, No because its only a "part" of the reason that your dating is way off.

("Again?" LOL!)

So, it is NOT your belief that "accumulative" errors in radiometric dating techniques are sufficient to account for a finding for the age of the earth that is 227,000x that of your wishful fiction.

Stated another way, you concede that, even given worst case inaccuracy, the radiometric evidence continues to indicate that the earth is significantly older than your wishful fiction of 20,000 years.

You don't credit that evidence "because its only a 'part' of the reason that your dating is way off." But stay with the radiometric data another moment.

Given your concession that the errors you cite in radiometric dating of the age of the earth do NOT account for the entirety of the 227,000 to 1 ratio of the scientific estimate versus your wishful fiction, what percentage of error DO you allege?

Do errors in radiometric dating result in an overstatement of the age of the earth by 1%, in which case the earth is actually 4.49 billion years old?  By 10%, indicating an earth of 4.08 billion years? By 50%, giving 2.27 billion years, more than 110,000x your Biblically derived age? By 90 percent, indicating an earth that is 22,700x older than your wishful fiction?

If corrected dating techniques were to indicate that the earth is 22,700x more ancient than your Biblically motivated surmise, would you conclude that the radiometric evidence supports your Biblical view of the age of the earth?  

Whichever number you arrive at, please justify it in terms of the literature you cite. To date the most generous estimate of possible error is 1/2 of 1%.
 
Quote
Btw, being obtuse is just another hand waving excuse to not put up your intellectual dukes

I posed this question nine times over two solid days before you muttered your response. Enough said.

ETA: a more accurate quote.

I think think the scientist plum lie a lot, including to themselves just like many of you


The decay rate topic didnt even come up until November 7th and I answered you the very next morning so you are believing your own faulty hype.

Btw, it came up after Ogre insisted that there was no evidence for fluctuating decay rates. Then when I proved the evidence, he suddenly claimed to have known about it all along, which is just lack of integrity

Quote me, liar.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,08:35   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,19:04)
 
Quote (noncarborundum @ Nov. 12 2011,17:32)
 
Quote (JonF @ Nov. 12 2011,06:58)
You mean mot, not mute.
Or possibly "moot".

       
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,14:34)

           
Quote

You said more than one radioisotope. Remember?

"Isochron dating is taking several measurements from several surrounding samples with several radioisotopes. "

And you're still wrong. ?One radioisotope, one daughter isotope, one stable isotope of the daughter isotope. Not "more than one type of daughter isotope". Daughter isotopes are produced only by radioactive decay.


Your own site that you keep telling me to read says: “Isochron dating requires a fourth measurement to be taken, which is the amount of a different isotope of the same element as the daughter product of radioactive decay. (For brevity's sake, hereafter I will refer to the parent isotope as P, the daughter isotope as D, and the non-radiogenic isotope of the same element as the daughter, as Di). In addition, it requires that these measurements be taken from several different objects which all formed at the same time from a common pool of materials. (Rocks which include several different minerals are excellent for this.)”
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs.......ng.html
The reading comprehension is not strong in this one, is it?  Either that, or the ability to look up "radioisotope" in any convenient dictionary and understand the result.

Thats three radioisotopes in that quote. A parent isotope can decay to different daughter or even granddaughter isotopes

To make it easy on you look at these isochron parent to daughter isotope dating techniques. I-Xe, K-Ar, Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd Ar-Ar, La-Ba, Pb-Pb, Lu-Hf, Ne-Ne, Re-Os, U-Pb-He, U-U.

Nope. One radioisotope, one daughter isotope, one stable isotope of the daughter element. Some radioisotopes (including 40K) decay to more than one daughter, but that's irrelevant.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,09:00   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 13 2011,08:27)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,01:49)
I think think the scientist plum lie a lot, including to themselves just like many of you


The decay rate topic didnt even come up until November 7th and I answered you the very next morning so you are believing your own faulty hype.

Btw, it came up after Ogre insisted that there was no evidence for fluctuating decay rates. Then when I proved the evidence, he suddenly claimed to have known about it all along, which is just lack of integrity

This will be a more efficient conversation if you forgo the part where you flatly ignore a difficult question four or five times, as well the part where you mutter something irrelevant into your sleeve another three. This response counts as three sleeve-mutterings, so I'm optimistic that we can now get down to the actual question:

Given your concession that the errors you cite in radiometric dating of the age of the earth do NOT account for the entirety of the 227,000 to 1 ratio of the scientific estimate of the age of the earth versus your wishful fiction, what percentage of error DO you allege?

Do errors in radiometric dating result in an overstatement of the age of the earth by 1%, in which case the earth is actually 4.49 billion years old?  By 10%, indicating an earth of 4.08 billion years? By 50%, giving 2.27 billion years, more than 110,000x your Biblically derived age? By 90 percent, indicating an earth that is 22,700x older than your wishful fiction?

If corrected dating techniques were to indicate that the earth is 22,700x more ancient than your Biblically motivated surmise, would you conclude that the radiometric evidence supports your Biblical view of the age of the earth?  

Whichever number you arrive at, please justify it in terms of the literature you cite. To date the most generous estimate of possible error is 1/2 of 1%, so you've a long way to go.

(I do accept your reply as a tacit admission that the literature does not remotely support your devoutly-to-be-wished-for 20,000 year earth. OOoooo, lying scientists! That's why nothing fits!)

LOL

the part where
Quote
This will be a more efficient conversation if you forgo the part where you flatly ignore a difficult question four or five times, as well the part where you mutter something irrelevant into your sleeve another three




fourass are you trying to have an efficient conversation or are you just pulling on your pud?

I suggest that you skip all this clumsy foreplay and go straight to the part where we need to accept your Jesus to pay for your sins.  Because you ain't really doing much to maintain any interest in educating your stupid ass

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,10:26   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,01:42)
   
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Nov. 12 2011,23:19)
   
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,16:37)
 

You now seem to be confusing reaction and decay.



Er, what reaction exactly?  There is none proposed for what those papers claim except stuff they made up to explain something which probably does not exist.

You also mentioned stability which has bupkis to do with decay modes.

U-238 has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, alpha decay.
Rn-212, 24 min, alpha
Se-82, 10^20 years, beta
Po-219  <300 nanosecond, beta decay.

You are confused, I have focused only on mechanisms of decay (alpha, beta, gamma), the fundamental forces involved (and particles), lack of foundations for claims of observation of variation with solar orbit, lack of an mechanism based on solar orbit that would affect the alpha, beta or gamma via the fundamental forces.

         
Quote

 You first asked how the sun could effect the strong nuclear binding force of a alpha decaying isotope and I told you that the force doesnt necessarily make them less vulnerable to reaction. In fact, alpha radioisotopes are often the most vulnerable to reaction.


You're babbling - what reactions, and how would they depend on distance from the sun?

         
Quote
On the other hand if  protons and neutrons can be rearranged inside the nucleus by deuterium tunneling and if cosmic rays and/or quantum tunneling can greatly effect reaction rates of radioisotopes and fission, its logical that it can also effect decay rates.


More babble, and IFs with no evidence.  What would be logical is something that would change what is going in in the nuclear decay that is related to solar orbit.  So, what goes on in the sun - OUT.  What goes on elsewhere in space - OUT.  What changes with orbit is the distance and variation of neutrino flux is quite clearly evident there. Alas for you, neutrinos don't affect decay rates.  

         
Quote
Actually its called quantum physics. You and your sun god priests love fantasizing about mutationism but when someone talks logically about a mutation that can effect your scriptures, the whole congregation starts foaming at the mouth


Now you're babbling about something that is wholly unrelated to orbital influences on radioactive decay rates.
         
Quote

         
Quote
No answer to why alpha decay should be affected, eh? This group seeing variation in decay rates is seeing variation in alpha and beta decay.  The fact that alpha should not be affected at all casts doubt that this is not just observational artifact for ALL the results.


Radium decays alpha, beta, and gamma and Princeton and Purdue show that the decay rates do change


The continued absence of answer is glaringly obvious.

Radium-???  There are these things called "isotopes".  Look it up.

Actually, these are currently unverified claims.  You keep credulously repeating them, because you are an IDiot.  There is a long history of a seasonal variation in measurement of decay rates, that does not mean it is real instead of instrument sensitivity to winter vs summer climate.  That is why other experiments using different measurement techniques are important.   Others have done this, with the result being - NO VARIATION.


Google radioisotope and "reaction" rate and nuclear force and activation energy and you will how they tie together  


What is needed is an argument for CHANGES in these rather vaguely described processes on your part.

All your sources (which I deleted since they are superfluous - we've seen you repeat them unthinkingly every time)  are from the same group making the same claims that aren't holding up.

Nobody is fooled.

My arguments are unanswered still.  The only reason I am interested in this particular issue is that it shows a pathological thinking process on your part.  Putative oscillating decay rates would have NO effect on a radiodate, which makes it curious why you insist on defending this.

Although I am interested in these staffs in all cultures that record the Global Flood - any progress on finding one?  I suggest you google it.  :p

Edited to add, 1) because I can and you can't, and 2) you claim scientists lie a lot: why do you believe the Purdue et al scientists and not the others?  Do you have a procedure for doing this that does not depend on other scientists, who could also be lying?  By the way, I have found that people who think everybody else is a liar is just projecting their personality onto others.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,10:35   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,19:47)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 12 2011,18:25)
Hey forastero, here's a reply, also published in Radiocarbon to your Keenan article.

http://dendro.cornell.edu/article....02c.pdf

I'll just add that Manning et. al. has another (minimum) 15 peer-reviewed articles published specifically discussing radiocarbon dating AFTER 2002.  Further, if you go to Manning's home page, there are at least three articles discussing radiocarbon calibration, at least two discussing the tree-ring dating and radiocarbon dating, and one article discussing what we know and don't know about radiocarbon dates.  Most of these were also published in Radiocarbon.

Feel free to read them all and learn what's going on from an actual scientist, but do start with the response to Keenan's paper.

Enjoy.

There be skullduggery goings on with yur pirates
http://www.centuries.co.uk/uluburu....run.pdf c14

Keenan got beat like a rented mule, and you find a PDF on a series of tubes.  Ooooh!

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,10:41   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,00:17)
Quote (Cubist @ Nov. 12 2011,19:21)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,18:25)
Hey it was those unromantically rude dudes who  doubted Troy, Babylon, Atlantis, Nineveh, and Nimrud too

forastero, there's an Abbott & Costello routine that's very appropriate here...
 
Quote
Costello: They said Newton was crazy! They said Einstein was crazy! They said Luigi was crazy!
Abbott: Hold on a second. Who's Luigi?
Costello: Oh, Luigi's my uncle. He is crazy.

You YECs are crazy like Luigi, not crazy like Einstein.

Hmm..sounds like some of those German documentaries of the 1930s-40s

Ah, I remember Abbott and Costello well - just like a slapstick Nazi documentary.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,10:51   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Nov. 12 2011,21:03)
Wow the word salad really comes out when they lose the argument doesn't it.

"Again, the fluctuations, assumptions, circular calibrations, contaminations, religious fervor, etc etc etc make your radiomagic dating a joke."

He has stated this and except for a 0.5% possible issue with fluctuations he has failed to show any other issues with dating.


"Again, No because its only a "part" of the reason that your dating is way off"

So why the feck lead with the issue that only results in a 0.5% error. This is like the Mt St Helens thing - He has these magical super-secret proofs, but he trots out the tired old creationist carnards.

Because he is a YEC idiot.  The thinking process goes like this:

A simple-minded application of a constant decay rate to date objects obviously shows YEC to be a huge pile of steaming crap.  Forastero thinks that if he can show that this caricature is not strictly correct, therefore YEC is NOT a steaming pile of crap.  Whereas real scientists understand the process and account for all the influences forastero mentions.

That is why he cannot handle the factor of 227,000 he needs, as a matter of fact he must not mention numbers in order to obscure the fact that not only is he wrong, but 227,000 x wrong.  No pathetic level of detail for forastero!

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:04   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,20:47)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 12 2011,18:25)
Hey forastero, here's a reply, also published in Radiocarbon to your Keenan article.

http://dendro.cornell.edu/article....02c.pdf

I'll just add that Manning et. al. has another (minimum) 15 peer-reviewed articles published specifically discussing radiocarbon dating AFTER 2002.  Further, if you go to Manning's home page, there are at least three articles discussing radiocarbon calibration, at least two discussing the tree-ring dating and radiocarbon dating, and one article discussing what we know and don't know about radiocarbon dates.  Most of these were also published in Radiocarbon.

Feel free to read them all and learn what's going on from an actual scientist, but do start with the response to Keenan's paper.

Enjoy.

There be skullduggery goings on with yur pirates
http://www.centuries.co.uk/uluburu....run.pdf c14

baaahahahahaha




this is the lamest bullshit you have said on this thread, yet

how the fuck can you even pretend that has fuckall to do with anything, oh that's right you are aetheistocyst

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:06   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 13 2011,07:27)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,01:49)
I think think the scientist plum lie a lot, including to themselves just like many of you


The decay rate topic didnt even come up until November 7th and I answered you the very next morning so you are believing your own faulty hype.

Btw, it came up after Ogre insisted that there was no evidence for fluctuating decay rates. Then when I proved the evidence, he suddenly claimed to have known about it all along, which is just lack of integrity

This will be a more efficient conversation if you forgo the part where you flatly ignore a difficult question four or five times, as well the part where you mutter something irrelevant into your sleeve another three. This response counts as three sleeve-mutterings, so I'm optimistic that we can now get down to the actual question:

Given your concession that the errors you cite in radiometric dating of the age of the earth do NOT account for the entirety of the 227,000 to 1 ratio of the scientific estimate of the age of the earth versus your wishful fiction, what percentage of error DO you allege?

Do errors in radiometric dating result in an overstatement of the age of the earth by 1%, in which case the earth is actually 4.49 billion years old?  By 10%, indicating an earth of 4.08 billion years? By 50%, giving 2.27 billion years, more than 110,000x your Biblically derived age? By 90 percent, indicating an earth that is 22,700x older than your wishful fiction?

If corrected dating techniques were to indicate that the earth is 22,700x more ancient than your Biblically motivated surmise, would you conclude that the radiometric evidence supports your Biblical view of the age of the earth?  

Whichever number you arrive at, please justify it in terms of the literature you cite. To date the most generous estimate of possible error is 1/2 of 1%, so you've a long way to go.

(I do accept your reply as a tacit admission that the literature does not remotely support your devoutly-to-be-wished-for 20,000 year earth. OOoooo, lying scientists! That's why nothing fits!)

I realize that you mutationists like to try to make clocks out of random events but you cant really put a number on these random tunneling mutations of decay. Plus, radioisotopes have different decay events, sensitivities, binding forces and energy barriers that require a specific activation energy that reactants must surpass in order to nudge it into decaying. However, quantum mechanics is still in its infancy so we will be finding out more in the future about these decay mutations.

In the mean time though:

Geologists Find First Clue To Tyrannosaurus Rex Gender In Bone Tissue

Bits of Triceratops Gene Extracted
Unfossilized duck-billed dinosaur bones have been found on the North Slope

Dinosaur mummy yields organic molecules

Proteins have been successfully extracted from the fossil vertebra of a 150-million-year-old sauropod dinosaur ("Seismosaurus")

Preservation of the bone protein osteocalcin in dinosaurs
DNA and protein isolation from the 290 million year-old amphibian Discosauriscus austriacus and applications of biotechnology in palaeontology

In the March 25, 2005, issue of Science, paleontologist Mary Schweitzer and her co-authors reported the discovery of intact blood vessels and other soft tissues in demineralized bone from a 65- million-year–old specimen of Tyrannosaurus rex housed at the Museum of the Rockies (MOR). This is an extremely controversial result, because most scientists think that nucleic acids (the organic material that DNA and RNA are made of) will not survive intact for over 100,000 years.

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:17   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 13 2011,07:39)
Quote me, liar.

And then a few days later you flipflopped right back to your original assertion for a three count

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:18   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,12:06)
I realize that you mutationists like to try to make clocks out of random events but you cant really put a number on these random tunneling mutations of decay.

<snipped piles and piles of cowardly horseshit>

not even, say, a number between 1 and 227,000?

you are the biggest pussy that ever came in here and vomited this same old bullshit all over a thread.  i usually don't use superlatives but you've earned it champ

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:32   

Quote (JonF @ Nov. 13 2011,08:35)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,19:04)
 
Quote (noncarborundum @ Nov. 12 2011,17:32)
   
Quote (JonF @ Nov. 12 2011,06:58)
You mean mot, not mute.
Or possibly "moot".

       
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 12 2011,14:34)

             
Quote

You said more than one radioisotope. Remember?

"Isochron dating is taking several measurements from several surrounding samples with several radioisotopes. "

And you're still wrong. ?One radioisotope, one daughter isotope, one stable isotope of the daughter isotope. Not "more than one type of daughter isotope". Daughter isotopes are produced only by radioactive decay.


Your own site that you keep telling me to read says: “Isochron dating requires a fourth measurement to be taken, which is the amount of a different isotope of the same element as the daughter product of radioactive decay. (For brevity's sake, hereafter I will refer to the parent isotope as P, the daughter isotope as D, and the non-radiogenic isotope of the same element as the daughter, as Di). In addition, it requires that these measurements be taken from several different objects which all formed at the same time from a common pool of materials. (Rocks which include several different minerals are excellent for this.)”
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs.......ng.html
The reading comprehension is not strong in this one, is it?  Either that, or the ability to look up "radioisotope" in any convenient dictionary and understand the result.

Thats three radioisotopes in that quote. A parent isotope can decay to different daughter or even granddaughter isotopes

To make it easy on you look at these isochron parent to daughter isotope dating techniques. I-Xe, K-Ar, Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd Ar-Ar, La-Ba, Pb-Pb, Lu-Hf, Ne-Ne, Re-Os, U-Pb-He, U-U.

Nope. One radioisotope, one daughter isotope, one stable isotope of the daughter element. Some radioisotopes (including 40K) decay to more than one daughter, but that's irrelevant.

“The most direct means for calculating the Earth's age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the Earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-207/Pb-204.”  
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs....th.html

http://books.google.com/books?i....f=false

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:32   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,12:06)
I realize that you mutationists like to try to make clocks out of random events but you cant really put a number on these random tunneling mutations of decay. Plus, radioisotopes have different decay events, sensitivities, binding forces and energy barriers that require a specific activation energy that reactants must surpass in order to nudge it into decaying. However, quantum mechanics is still in its infancy so we will be finding out more in the future about these decay mutations.

In the mean time though:

Geologists Find First Clue To Tyrannosaurus Rex Gender In Bone Tissue

Bits of Triceratops Gene Extracted
Unfossilized duck-billed dinosaur bones have been found on the North Slope

Dinosaur mummy yields organic molecules

Proteins have been successfully extracted from the fossil vertebra of a 150-million-year-old sauropod dinosaur ("Seismosaurus")

Preservation of the bone protein osteocalcin in dinosaurs
DNA and protein isolation from the 290 million year-old amphibian Discosauriscus austriacus and applications of biotechnology in palaeontology

In the March 25, 2005, issue of Science, paleontologist Mary Schweitzer and her co-authors reported the discovery of intact blood vessels and other soft tissues in demineralized bone from a 65- million-year–old specimen of Tyrannosaurus rex housed at the Museum of the Rockies (MOR). This is an extremely controversial result, because most scientists think that nucleic acids (the organic material that DNA and RNA are made of) will not survive intact for over 100,000 years.

What I notice is that you haven't answered the question. Rather, I read more sleeve-mutterings of irrelevancies, then a quick attempted presto-chango of the subject.

But the questions (still unanswered) were:

1) Given your concession that the errors you cite in radiometric dating of the age of the earth do NOT account for the entirety of the 227,000 to 1 ratio of the scientific estimate of the age of the earth versus your wishful fiction, what percentage of error DO you allege?

Do errors in radiometric dating result in an overstatement of the age of the earth by 1%, in which case the earth is actually 4.49 billion years old?  By 10%, indicating an earth of 4.08 billion years? By 50%, giving 2.27 billion years, more than 110,000x your Biblically derived age? By 90 percent, indicating an earth that is 22,700x older than your wishful fiction?

Whichever number you arrive at, please justify it in terms of the literature you cite. To date the most generous estimate of possible error is 1/2 of 1%, so you've a long way to go.

2) If corrected dating techniques were to indicate that the earth is 22,700x more ancient than your Biblically motivated surmise, would you conclude that the radiometric evidence supports your Biblical view of the age of the earth?  

Try to answer the question. It's God's work.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:40   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 13 2011,11:18)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,12:06)
I realize that you mutationists like to try to make clocks out of random events but you cant really put a number on these random tunneling mutations of decay.

<snipped piles and piles of cowardly horseshit>

not even, say, a number between 1 and 227,000?

you are the biggest pussy that ever came in here and vomited this same old bullshit all over a thread.  i usually don't use superlatives but you've earned it champ

So why you so mad? Is it cause you've adapted to the darkness and hate the light?

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,11:43   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,12:40)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 13 2011,11:18)
 
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,12:06)
I realize that you mutationists like to try to make clocks out of random events but you cant really put a number on these random tunneling mutations of decay.

<snipped piles and piles of cowardly horseshit>

not even, say, a number between 1 and 227,000?

you are the biggest pussy that ever came in here and vomited this same old bullshit all over a thread.  i usually don't use superlatives but you've earned it champ

So why you so mad? Is it cause you've adapted to the darkness and hate the light?

baahahahaha



you the one talking about some darwinian high sun god priests and all that bullshit you obviously mad about SOMETHING

just because i point how stupid you are don't mean i am all het up about it sugar LOL

Why don't you answer RB's questions, chickenshit??

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,12:03   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Nov. 05 2011,23:25)
Quote (forastero @ Nov. 05 2011,22:56)
Calibration in radiometric dating is comparing dates with another accepted date like with tree rings or historic records

isochon dating calibrates itself with isochron datings

Not that there'd be anything wrong with isochrons validating isochrons--the physics is well-established--but that ignorant claim is just not true:

Cyclostratigraphy confirms radiometric dating past 100 million years

And there's really no question that the sun can't be enormously older or younger than around four and a half billion years.

As for the flood, evaporite deposits could hardly result from a flood, nor is the enormous amount of bioturbation, including huge numbers of worm burrows, consistent with any flood.  Not that creationists care about actual evidence.

Glen Davidson

I'll pick on your best Cyclostratigraphy

A popular argument for old earth is the  Milankovitch cycle theory.  The theory has necessitated the belief in multiple ice ages and of late has been incorporated toward everything from climate change to Isochon dating.

Famous astronomer Fred Hoyle once said:  “If I were to assert that a glacial condition could be induced in a room liberally supplied during winter with charged night-storage heaters simply by taking an ice cube into the room, the proposition would be no more unlikely than the Milankovitch theory.”

First of all, the changes in summer sunshine postulated by the theory are too small to generate an ice age. Several other problems also render these cycles unlikely. In order to revamp support for the theory, evolutionists garnered supporting evidence from deep-sea and ice cores.

Sediment cores assumed older than 40,000 years old are very often dated using isochon methods. Isochon dating is in turn calibrated by these core sediments. Obviously this can be very circular in reasoning

Ice-core samples reveal multiple, rapid oscillation (usually 100 year cycles) so those 100,000 year Milankavich cycles that they claim they see in the cores could just as easily represent 100 year oscillation cycles.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi........bstract
http://www.nature.com/nature.....a0.html

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,12:08   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,13:03)
I'll pick on your best Cyclostratigraphy

snip whining appeal to chickenshittery

you damn right you will.

instead of answering RB's question

baahahahahaha



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,12:39   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 21 2011,05:55)
People who can't manage topicality elsewhere can always be topical in a thread devoted to them.

Hey you gonna let Krea Kong swing on the other threads some day and why you take his picture poster away? He just wants to play so why y'all so afraid? Is their some image at stake like a banner fake?

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,12:39   

Quote (forastero @ Nov. 13 2011,11:17)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 13 2011,07:39)
Quote me, liar.

And then a few days later you flipflopped right back to your original assertion for a three count

See forastero, you are not in a debate.  This is a forum.  It is a place where every comment is permanently placed in a location you can't edit it.  The same, of course, goes for us.

You made a claim.  Back it up with evidence (for once in your life).  Provide the quote or retract your claim.

BTW: What exactly exploded to cause the Big Bang?  And where in the geologic column should we look for the world-wide flood layer?

These questions are consequences of your claims.  You cannot support them.

I conclude that you are pretty much worthless as comes to research.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,12:44   

the muppet has so many excuses in it's hands it doesn't know what to do with them

hey, fourass, do what you always do.  FAP!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
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