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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,14:11   

Pic one:

http://www.google.com/search?....bih=964

And we have our winner!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....viAHhVE

I'd like to thank the academy, God and Gordon E Mullings! Mwah!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Seversky



Posts: 442
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,15:16   

Glaring Contradictions Kairosfocus Ignores #2

Here kf, as usual, berates "evolutionary materialism" (or whatever is the current pejorative epithet) for its failure to ground a morality in what is.

He ignores the fact that the morality he advocates is blatant Divine Command Theory with no explanation or justification of why God's moral beliefs are anything more than just another individual point of view.

He does, however, very kindly quote the relevant passage from Hume:

     
Quote
In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remarked, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when all of a sudden I am surprised to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, ’tis necessary that it should be observed and explained; and at the same time that a reason should be given; for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it. (Hume, David (1739). A Treatise of Human Nature. London: John Noon. p. 335.)


He also calls it "dangerously fallacious".  We are not told which fallacy the great Scottish philosopher has committed.

What does stand out about what Hume wrote 273 years ago is just how well it applies to what kf is doing today, the attempt to glide effortlessly, imperceptibly and quite unjustifiably from what is to what ought to be.

The problem for kf is that he gives the game away in the very next passage he quotes from Arthur Moore:

 
Quote
However we may define the good, however well we may calculate consequences, to whatever extent we may or may not desire certain consequences, none of this of itself implies any obligation of command. That something is or will be does not imply that we ought to seek it. We can never derive an “ought” from a premised “is” unless the ought is somehow already contained in the premise . . . .

R. M. Hare . . . raises the same point. Most theories, he argues, simply fail to account for the ought that commands us: subjectivism reduces imperatives to statements about subjective states, egoism and utilitarianism reduce them to statements about consequences, emotivism simply rejects them because they are not empirically verifiable, and determinism reduces them to causes rather than commands . . . .

Elizabeth Anscombe’s point is well made. We have a problem introducing the ought into ethics unless, as she argues, we are morally obligated by law – not a socially imposed law, ultimately, but divine law . . . . This is precisely the problem with modern ethical theory in the West . . . it has lost the binding force of divine commandments. (My emphasis)(Ethics: Approaching Moral Decisions (Downers Grove, IL: 1984), pp. 70 – 72.)


What kf clearly believes is that this heavily-elided passage reinforces his case for a morality that has some sort of objective existence or grounding, that moral law is somehow equivalent to laws of nature and we are as much inescapably subject to it as we are to gravity.

Yet, that is not what the passage says.  As quoted, it is acknowledging the force of the 'is/ought' objection and admitting that, without an 'ought' that can be derived from an 'is', there can be no supreme and objective moral law.  

The last couple of phrases which I highlighted are what kf really believes.  He attacks science and philosophical naturalism/evolutionary materialism/whatever for being amoral - which they are.  They do not pretend to be anything other than explanatory methodologies.  What he implies is that what he is offering as an alternative is an objective morality grounded in what is.

Except it isn't.

What he is actually doing is embracing the Divine Command horn of the Euthyphro Dilemma.  Far from proposing an objective morality - this is skated over with vague and circular references to "inherently" moral views - his position is that whatever his god commands must be and is incontrovertibly right, atrocious shenanigans in the Old Testament notwithstanding.  If you don't like it then it's hellfire, a drastic increase in the salt content of your body or "How long can you tread water?"

In other words, My Lord is almighty and that makes him all righty.

  
Patrick



Posts: 666
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,16:58   

vjtorley brings up CSI, as defined by Dembski, again:
Quote
Anyway, I’m just using Professor Dembski’s definition of CSI in The Design of Life, which stipulates two conditions: (i) the pattern in question identifies a highly improbable event; (ii) the pattern is easily described.

Perhaps a particularly cruel sock puppet would be interested in pointing out that vjtorley himself applied Dembski's non-rigorous algorithm to a gene duplication event and was forced to conclude that this known evolutionary mechanism could create CSI.  Naturally, much rhetorical squirming followed during which the constraint in Dembski's original question from Specification:  The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence, "Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause?", was ignored by every intelligent design creationist posting in response.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,17:18   

ScottAndrews2 unwittingly speaks for every single ID enthusiast:
 
Quote
That’s where I have to stop myself, because I know I’m not really qualified to discuss ID in depth. Only to shoot off about evolution.

Link

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,18:18   

Critical Mass or Critical Care for ID?

Quote
What is Bill Dembski planning to do now?
January 29, 2012 Posted by News under Culture, Darwinism, News
No Comments

“This will allow me to redouble my efforts at developing ID’s scientific research program.”


2 x 0 = 0

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,19:00   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 29 2012,12:11)
Pic one:

http://www.google.com/search?....bih=964

And we have our winner!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....viAHhVE

I'd like to thank the academy, God and Gordon E Mullings! Mwah!

The use of the Superman theme was a nice touch.

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,19:59   

Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 29 2012,14:58)
Perhaps a particularly cruel sock puppet would be interested in pointing out that vjtorley himself applied Dembski's non-rigorous algorithm to a gene duplication event and was forced to conclude that this known evolutionary mechanism could create CSI.

I'm not cruel, I'm just woven that way.

(apologies to Jessica Rabbit in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?", 1988)

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
eigenstate



Posts: 78
Joined: Nov. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,20:00   

Thinking that StephenB found a nice rehab center or a yoga spa for the last several months, convalescing, getting the bile out of his system, reconnected with a centered life, far from UD?

Nope

Quote
Why do you wander around in a linguistic fog? Come on out into the clear air of rationality and explain your terms and define the relationship between (among) them.


plus ça change, plus c'est la męme chose....

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2012,21:23   

O'Leary quoting TBS interview w/ Dembski
   
Quote
TBS: You have stated that “design theorists oppose Darwinian theory on strictly scientific grounds.” But then why is the ID movement so heavily populated with religious believers? Could we not expect more of the scientific community to support ID if your statement were true? Why do the majority of the world’s leading scientific bodies oppose ID and claim that it does not qualify as science?
  Good question.  But will Dembski answer it?
   
Quote
WD: The quote needs context. I’ve also written that intelligent design, besides being a scientific program, has a theological dimension, in trying to understand divine action, and a cultural dimension, in trying to overturn naturalism. So intelligent design is a number of things. But at its core, it is a scientific program. Indeed, unless there is good science to back it up, all the cultural and theological superstructures that people build on it will be in vain.
  Apparently not.

   
Quote
WD: As for why religious believers tend to be associated with design, I could turn the question around. If Darwinian evolution is strictly scientific, then why is that field so heavily populated with atheists?
  Why is this even a question when the answer is so obvious?

   
Quote
WD: I see a scientific core to both intelligent design and Darwinian evolution. And I see no merit in questioning their scientific status by the company they keep. The character of the proposals that both approaches make is what really ought to count.

  It should. And it does.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,00:24   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 29 2012,14:11)
Pic one:

http://www.google.com/search?....bih=964

And we have our winner!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....viAHhVE

I'd like to thank the academy, God and Gordon E Mullings! Mwah!

Man, kairosfocus still hasn't gotten his breath back from that one!

It reminds me of Father Guido Sarducci's act, "Vita est Lavorum".  After watching your cites, Gordon is going, "Thirty five cents, thirty five cents, thirty five cents..." and hoping he isn't born again as a nun.

On another topic, what's with Gordon and "Bydand"?  Don't tell me that Gordon, Wind of the Carribean, is claiming a tie to Gordon of the Highlanders?

I mean, he certainly doesn't look Scotch.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,04:02   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Jan. 30 2012,00:24)
On another topic, what's with Gordon and "Bydand"?  Don't tell me that Gordon, Wind of the Carribean, is claiming a tie to Gordon of the Highlanders?

I mean, he certainly doesn't look Scotch.

And I thought "bydand" had a super-secret meaning my Google Fu couldn't discover.

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,04:18   


  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,04:33   

Quote
Hume:"... the usual copulations of propositions...


Hume prophesises KF's habitual and vigorous rogering of conventional logic?

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,05:36   

Quote (Woodbine @ Jan. 30 2012,04:18)

ROFL! And I bet Mel Gibson and KF would get on like a house on fire.

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,05:47   

I can't remember if I've printed this here before, but from the AITSE web site:    
Quote
Bunk Detecting Principles

Several people have asked how a person who is not scientifically trained can assess the validity of the scientific claims made in published articles, on television, on the Internet, in advertisements, etc. There is no easy answer, but here are a few principles that might prove helpful:

1. Check if the author claims that something has been proven or declares something controversial to be a fact; remember that this in itself is a very unscientific statement. Scientists are trained to be skeptical and ask questions.

2. Check if the author makes claims to have accomplished something that is beyond what has actually been done or is even possible to do. For example, is it possible to show that ALL mammals are controlled by anything?

3. Check if what is said is scientifically accurate–an elementary science mistake in the article is a give-away. For example, if the article says that something goes double the speed of light, distrust everything else it says, too!

4. Beware of grandiose claims. If the article or book says that it will cure all ills and reverse 100% of a particular condition, remember that if it looks like snake oil, sounds like snake oil, and tastes like snake oil…

5. Check if the claims can be tested scientifically, that is, can they be measured. If they can’t, then it is possible that the claims being made are not scientific. For example, the assertion that all girls would secretly like to be princesses is not scientific. After all, what double blind study showed that? Did they ask all girls? But, the girls were keeping it secret, so how could they? You get the idea.

6. Be careful when an author makes too much of the scientific qualifications of those involved or disparages those who do not agree his/her views; it may mean their argument is weak. For example, a scientist who says that “all research scientists agree with me” is using an argument from authority, not scientific reasoning. One who says that those who do not agree are “scientifically illiterate” is doing the same. Also, keep in mind that being a scientist or a physician does not make one infallible.

7. Finally, be skeptical. Do not be quick to believe people, especially when it involves your health and/or your money!
Looks like UD hits every one.

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,06:47   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Jan. 30 2012,00:24)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 29 2012,14:11)
Pic one:

http://www.google.com/search?....bih=964

And we have our winner!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....viAHhVE

I'd like to thank the academy, God and Gordon E Mullings! Mwah!

Man, kairosfocus still hasn't gotten his breath back from that one!

It reminds me of Father Guido Sarducci's act, "Vita est Lavorum".  After watching your cites, Gordon is going, "Thirty five cents, thirty five cents, thirty five cents..." and hoping he isn't born again as a nun.

On another topic, what's with Gordon and "Bydand"?  Don't tell me that Gordon, Wind of the Carribean, is claiming a tie to Gordon of the Highlanders?

I mean, he certainly doesn't look Scotch.

There are lots of caribbean scots, and lots of scots caribbeans.

  
Patrick



Posts: 666
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,06:50   

Quote (paragwinn @ Jan. 29 2012,20:59)
Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 29 2012,14:58)
Perhaps a particularly cruel sock puppet would be interested in pointing out that vjtorley himself applied Dembski's non-rigorous algorithm to a gene duplication event and was forced to conclude that this known evolutionary mechanism could create CSI.

I'm not cruel, I'm just woven that way.

(apologies to Jessica Rabbit in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?", 1988)

Of course, now you'll be accused of being MathGrrl and your point will be ignored.

  
Patrick



Posts: 666
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,06:59   

champignon gives kairosfocus some much needed correction here:
Quote
I’m ashamed to say that when I read Gil’s post and your subsequent comments, I actually believed that the songwriter was expressing approval of the burning of synagogues. I figured that you and Gil couldn’t possibly be brazen enough to quote mine the song lyrics, particularly when anyone could look them up online. Well, you and Gil have stooped that low, and you can bet I won’t be assuming your honesty in the future.

and here:
Quote
Onlookers,

Imagine the outcry from kairosfocus if an atheist had quotemined a Christian song in order to smear Christianity. We’d get 500+ indignant lines talking about how “evo mat” amorality was leading to the destruction of civilization.

What hypocrisy.

Could this be the combination of posts that finally increase the pressure in kairosfocus head beyond the structural limits of his skull?

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,07:38   

Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 30 2012,06:59)
champignon gives kairosfocus some much needed correction here:
Quote
I’m ashamed to say that when I read Gil’s post and your subsequent comments, I actually believed that the songwriter was expressing approval of the burning of synagogues. I figured that you and Gil couldn’t possibly be brazen enough to quote mine the song lyrics, particularly when anyone could look them up online. Well, you and Gil have stooped that low, and you can bet I won’t be assuming your honesty in the future.

and here:
Quote
Onlookers,

Imagine the outcry from kairosfocus if an atheist had quotemined a Christian song in order to smear Christianity. We’d get 500+ indignant lines talking about how “evo mat” amorality was leading to the destruction of civilization.

What hypocrisy.

Could this be the combination of posts that finally increase the pressure in kairosfocus head beyond the structural limits of his skull?

Combined with woodford's posts who repeatedly questioned KF's authority along the line of "I don't know this guy, so why should I take his comments as gospel?"

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,10:08   

Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 30 2012,04:59)
champignon gives kairosfocus some much needed correction here:
 
Quote
I’m ashamed to say that when I read Gil’s post and your subsequent comments, I actually believed that the songwriter was expressing approval of the burning of synagogues. I figured that you and Gil couldn’t possibly be brazen enough to quote mine the song lyrics, particularly when anyone could look them up online. Well, you and Gil have stooped that low, and you can bet I won’t be assuming your honesty in the future.

and here:
 
Quote
Onlookers,

Imagine the outcry from kairosfocus if an atheist had quotemined a Christian song in order to smear Christianity. We’d get 500+ indignant lines talking about how “evo mat” amorality was leading to the destruction of civilization.

What hypocrisy.

Could this be the combination of posts that finally increase the pressure in kairosfocus head beyond the structural limits of his skull?


Uh oh!



--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,10:25   

Just in case you haven't seen this mess:

Massive tard

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,10:31   

Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 30 2012,04:59)
champignon gives kairosfocus some much needed correction here:
 
Quote
I’m ashamed to say that when I read Gil’s post and your subsequent comments, I actually believed that the songwriter was expressing approval of the burning of synagogues. I figured that you and Gil couldn’t possibly be brazen enough to quote mine the song lyrics, particularly when anyone could look them up online. Well, you and Gil have stooped that low, and you can bet I won’t be assuming your honesty in the future.

and here:
 
Quote
Onlookers,

Imagine the outcry from kairosfocus if an atheist had quotemined a Christian song in order to smear Christianity. We’d get 500+ indignant lines talking about how “evo mat” amorality was leading to the destruction of civilization.

What hypocrisy.

Could this be the combination of posts that finally increase the pressure in kairosfocus head beyond the structural limits of his skull?

Nah.  This is the combination of posts that makes Gordshite stick his fingers and sing "la la la I can't hear you".  Again.
Quote
5.1 kairosfocus January 29, 2012 at 2:56 am
Gil: a serious and sobering point, given the above. I note that we see no serious response on your expose of promotion of synagogue and church burning. KF


--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,11:00   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 30 2012,08:31)
 
Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 30 2012,04:59)
champignon gives kairosfocus some much needed correction here:
     
Quote
I’m ashamed to say that when I read Gil’s post and your subsequent comments, I actually believed that the songwriter was expressing approval of the burning of synagogues. I figured that you and Gil couldn’t possibly be brazen enough to quote mine the song lyrics, particularly when anyone could look them up online. Well, you and Gil have stooped that low, and you can bet I won’t be assuming your honesty in the future.

and here:
     
Quote
Onlookers,

Imagine the outcry from kairosfocus if an atheist had quotemined a Christian song in order to smear Christianity. We’d get 500+ indignant lines talking about how “evo mat” amorality was leading to the destruction of civilization.

What hypocrisy.

Could this be the combination of posts that finally increase the pressure in kairosfocus head beyond the structural limits of his skull?

Nah.  This is the combination of posts that makes Gordshite stick his fingers and sing "la la la I can't hear you".  Again.
   
Quote
5.1 kairosfocus January 29, 2012 at 2:56 am
Gil: a serious and sobering point, given the above. I note that we see no serious response on your expose of promotion of synagogue and church burning. KF

To gordo, a "serious response" is defined as complete, obedient agreement with all of his lies, distortions, dictatorial commands, and sermons, and his attacks on evolutionary materialists, methodological naturalists, scientists, atheists, and anyone else he demonizes.



--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,11:18   

Who says ID proponentsists don't want to talk about the "how?" Gpuccio courageously formulates a hypothesis:
Quote
Biological design is not implemented in artificail labs, like humans do, but directly in lioving things and in the living environment, and probably through a direct interaction between consciousness and matter. That creates different possibilities, and different constraints.


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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,12:04   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Jan. 30 2012,12:18)
Who says ID proponentsists don't want to talk about the "how?" Gpuccio courageously formulates a hypothesis:  
Quote
Biological design is not implemented in artificail labs, like humans do, but directly in lioving things and in the living environment, and probably through a direct interaction between consciousness and matter. That creates different possibilities, and different constraints.

is he drunk

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,12:38   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Jan. 30 2012,11:18)
Who says ID proponentsists don't want to talk about the "how?" Gpuccio courageously formulates a hypothesis:  
Quote
Biological design is not implemented in artificail labs, like humans do, but directly in lioving things and in the living environment, and probably through a direct interaction between consciousness and matter. That creates different possibilities, and different constraints.

He cribbed that from gpuccio. It's practically a quote.

Although it might be the other way round.

EDIT: or I am too drunk to notice that gp was "quoting" gp. Simple misreading.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,13:07   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Jan. 30 2012,10:18)
Who says ID proponentsists don't want to talk about the "how?" Gpuccio courageously formulates a hypothesis:  
Quote
Biological design is not implemented in artificail labs, like humans do, but directly in lioving things and in the living environment, and probably through a direct interaction between consciousness and matter. That creates different possibilities, and different constraints.

Except for the part about "consciousness", it doesn't look all that far off. (I guess accidents do happen, huh?)

  
Raevmo



Posts: 235
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,15:21   

Chas D throws pearls to the swine:
 
Quote
Take a population of N organisms. Allow them to breed completely at random. The chance of any individual not being the parent of the next offspring born is (N-1)/N. The chance of it not being the next parent either is ((N-1)/N)^2. And the next ((N-1)/N)^3 and so on. Once you have N offspring, any individual from the parent generation has the chance ((N-1)/N)^N of not being the parent of ANY of those offspring. For populations in double figures and above, this approaches 36.78%. That means that 36.78% of any randomly mating population leaves no offspring in the next generation – by stochastic processes.

The next generation is formed from this second population. Again, you find that 36.78% leave no offspring. This concentrates successful individuals from the ancestral population even further. The next generation does the same. And the next. And the next … Can you see where this is heading? The statistically inevitable result is that one ancestor (and all its genes) becomes fixed in the population.

Now, real populations recombine. This means that ancestry is fixed at allele level, not at individual level. They also don’t mate completely at random – but this actually concentrates some ancestors even more than the 36.78% baseline. Nonetheless, the argument – the inevitability of fixation from a blind stochastic sampling process – remains.

This very nice comment was directed at Joe. What are the odds he understands, much less see that 36.78..% = 1/e?

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After much reflection I finally realized that the best way to describe the cause of the universe is: the great I AM.

--GilDodgen

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,15:57   

Quote (Raevmo @ Jan. 30 2012,15:21)
Chas D throws pearls to the swine:
   
Quote
Take a population of N organisms. Allow them to breed completely at random. The chance of any individual not being the parent of the next offspring born is (N-1)/N. The chance of it not being the next parent either is ((N-1)/N)^2. And the next ((N-1)/N)^3 and so on. Once you have N offspring, any individual from the parent generation has the chance ((N-1)/N)^N of not being the parent of ANY of those offspring. For populations in double figures and above, this approaches 36.78%. That means that 36.78% of any randomly mating population leaves no offspring in the next generation – by stochastic processes.

The next generation is formed from this second population. Again, you find that 36.78% leave no offspring. This concentrates successful individuals from the ancestral population even further. The next generation does the same. And the next. And the next … Can you see where this is heading? The statistically inevitable result is that one ancestor (and all its genes) becomes fixed in the population.

Now, real populations recombine. This means that ancestry is fixed at allele level, not at individual level. They also don’t mate completely at random – but this actually concentrates some ancestors even more than the 36.78% baseline. Nonetheless, the argument – the inevitability of fixation from a blind stochastic sampling process – remains.

This very nice comment was directed at Joe. What are the odds he understands, much less see that 36.78..% = 1/e?

Ah classic Joe.

Scientist: "How does your position explain x?"

Joe: "HA! Your position can't explain x!  neener neener neener"

Although Chas made an excellent description there.  Methinks they don't know what stochastic process means

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,17:26   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Jan. 30 2012,22:38)
Quote (Patrick @ Jan. 30 2012,06:59)
champignon gives kairosfocus some much needed correction here:
 
Quote
I’m ashamed to say that when I read Gil’s post and your subsequent comments, I actually believed that the songwriter was expressing approval of the burning of synagogues. I figured that you and Gil couldn’t possibly be brazen enough to quote mine the song lyrics, particularly when anyone could look them up online. Well, you and Gil have stooped that low, and you can bet I won’t be assuming your honesty in the future.

and here:
 
Quote
Onlookers,

Imagine the outcry from kairosfocus if an atheist had quotemined a Christian song in order to smear Christianity. We’d get 500+ indignant lines talking about how “evo mat” amorality was leading to the destruction of civilization.

What hypocrisy.

Could this be the combination of posts that finally increase the pressure in kairosfocus head beyond the structural limits of his skull?

Combined with woodford's posts who repeatedly questioned KF's authority along the line of "I don't know this guy, so why should I take his comments as gospel?"

In the same thread this  comment quoted from the site. I don't know if any sock puppets want to bring up the falsehoods in the text as here is the  real story.

  
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