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Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:21    Just showed Luke's video to my girlfriend. Same reaction as me: jaw drops to the floor, explodes laminated mahogany tiles, passes through downstair neighbor's living room and ends up in the gutter crying for mommy. I'm not saying this to flatter in anyway, but it is very impressive for a person of such young age to master that piece thus. Kudos to him (and you and your significant one for his upbringing), and then some! -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:22    Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,14:02) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:50) I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific. Why?  You aren't interested in answering an honest question.  And if you're not interested, I'm certainly not going to force you. But since you want me to be specific: Committing a murder will get someone sent to hell, right? No And abortion is murder, yes? Yes But an abortion will not get someone sent to hell...even though it's murder, and even though a lot of other Christians say that it will.  (Heddle's incredulity aside, he doesn't speak for every possible sect, and frankly his 'common ground' is a bit like describing Led Zepplin's farewell concert as four guys on stage playing instruments.  Accurate but not quite complete.) So the question is, even though I find your interpretation a refreshing change of pace, why should I take it seriously?  Why is your interpretation better than, say, the Pope's?  Jerry Falwell's?  Joel Osteen's? FL's? I think maybe you might be misunderstanding a lot of them in regard to the two pointed questions above The MadPanda, FCD see below -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:22    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:22) Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,14:02) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:50) I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific. Why?  You aren't interested in answering an honest question.  And if you're not interested, I'm certainly not going to force you. But since you want me to be specific: Committing a murder will get someone sent to hell, right? No And abortion is murder, yes? Yes But an abortion will not get someone sent to hell...even though it's murder, and even though a lot of other Christians say that it will.  (Heddle's incredulity aside, he doesn't speak for every possible sect, and frankly his 'common ground' is a bit like describing Led Zepplin's farewell concert as four guys on stage playing instruments.  Accurate but not quite complete.) So the question is, even though I find your interpretation a refreshing change of pace, why should I take it seriously?  Why is your interpretation better than, say, the Pope's?  Jerry Falwell's?  Joel Osteen's? FL's? I think maybe you might be misunderstanding a lot of them in regard to the two pointed questions above The MadPanda, FCD see below i mean above....lol -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:24    As below, so above... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:25    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,14:24) As below, so above... ;P -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:25    Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,14:02)     Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:50) I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific. Why?  You aren't interested in answering an honest question.  And if you're not interested, I'm certainly not going to force you. But since you want me to be specific: Committing a murder will get someone sent to hell, right? And abortion is murder, yes? But an abortion will not get someone sent to hell...even though it's murder, and even though a lot of other Christians say that it will.  (Heddle's incredulity aside, he doesn't speak for every possible sect, and frankly his 'common ground' is a bit like describing Led Zepplin's farewell concert as four guys on stage playing instruments.  Accurate but not quite complete.) So the question is, even though I find your interpretation a refreshing change of pace, why should I take it seriously?  Why is your interpretation better than, say, the Pope's?  Jerry Falwell's?  Joel Osteen's? FL's? The MadPanda, FCD Ok, I don't get this. I didn't get when Lenny did it either. I mean, what is the pleasure derived from asking questions about one's religion--only to add "why should I believe you rather than [insert some other Christian, preferably as unattractive one as is possible] or my pizza man?" In the abstract it is a fair question--but what's the fun in the exercise? Especially when the person keeps saying I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just answering your question. Either you ask because you are intellectually curious about what the person's answer will be or you don't ask. But asking and then following up with "why should I believe you and not, say, Fred Phelps?" seems a bit tiresome. I mean, really, does this: Q: will I go to hell if I have an abortion? A: no you don't go to hell for having an abortion. Q: why should I believe your answer instead of Jerry Falwell's answer? actually seem productive? Or demonstrative? Or in lieu of anything substantive does is it at least have the virtue of being clever and funny? Personally I think not. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

MadPanda, FCD Posts: 267 Joined: Nov. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:31    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:22) i mean above....lol I think I understand them pretty well.  It's this ridiculous 'get out of jail free' card that puzzles me, 'cause it's only available to people who agree with them, which seems neither just nor particularly coherent. But you don't judge, obviously. The MadPanda, FCD -------------- "No matter how ridiculous the internet tough guy, a thorough mocking is more effective than a swift kick to the gentleman vegetables with a hobnailed boot" --Louis

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:37    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,14:13)   Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,15:10)   Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 25 2011,13:31)     Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:00) Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes: my son (who is autistic) on youtube. You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred! *STANDS AND APPLAUDS* Simply fantastic! I hope it brings him great joy to play it. What a gift! Tell him I think he's a star. Thanks Rich (and Erasmus, and others). thanx for posting it.  maybe not his style, but does he play Teh Joplin? Scott Joplin (yes). Janice Joplin (my all-time fav female vocalist) no-so much. He does play some pop--but he likes the Beatles and Billy Joule. Got that from his mom... His memory is very handy in church. If we are in "request a hymn mode" and someone shouts out: "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour" everyone will look to Luke who will announce: Number 242. Last brag (I kind of promise): It's a close call whether he is better on the piano or the violin. (We'll have get a video of that posted some day.) -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

MadPanda, FCD Posts: 267 Joined: Nov. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:48    Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,14:25) Ok, I don't get this. I didn't get when Lenny did it either. I mean, what is the pleasure derived from asking questions about one's religion--only to add "why should I believe you rather than [insert some other Christian, preferably as unattractive one as is possible] or my pizza man?" In the abstract it is a fair question--but what's the fun in the exercise? Especially when the person keeps saying I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just answering your question. Either you ask because you are intellectually curious about what the person's answer will be or you don't ask. But asking and then following up with "why should I believe you and not, say, Fred Phelps?" seems a bit tiresome. I mean, really, does this: Q: will I go to hell if I have an abortion? A: no you don't go to hell for having an abortion. Q: why should I believe your answer instead of Jerry Falwell's answer? actually seem productive? Or demonstrative? Or in lieu of anything substantive does is it at least have the virtue of being clever and funny? Personally I think not. Given the number of varying opinions on certain supposedly absolute truths, each of which claims to be exclusive, and for rejecting which one is often threatened with eternal unpleasantness, it would be intellectually dishonest not to hold each of them to the same standard.  Where that standard is not satisfied, further examination is required. Is it tedious?  Yes, as is listening to sermons and lectures from people who are absolutely sure that their beliefs are the only correct ones, and everybody else is going to suffer for eternity. But until your ilk stop preachifying at me and quoting your magic book with magic words as if it means something, and demanding respect for your imaginary friend upon threat of eternal suffering, I'm going to be playing the gadfly. Don't like?  Don't read...and don't preach unless you want to have those questions thrown at you. "I don't see the fun in it." There is no fun at all in being badgered about eternal suffering because one cannot with intellectual honesty and integrity accept a ridiculous little fairy tale with a healthy side order of 'blame the victim' as a positive world view. The MadPanda, FCD -------------- "No matter how ridiculous the internet tough guy, a thorough mocking is more effective than a swift kick to the gentleman vegetables with a hobnailed boot" --Louis

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:50    Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:37) Scott Joplin (yes). Janice Joplin (my all-time fav female vocalist) no-so much. He does play some pop--but he likes the Beatles and Billy Joule. Got that from his mom... Hardly surprising.  His dad's a physicist. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:51    Quote Last brag (I kind of promise): It's a close call whether he is better on the piano or the violin. (We'll have get a video of that posted some day.) You'd better!!! (eventual guest work intended...) -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:52    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,14:58    Never too late for a good ol' Sonseed!!! -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:00    Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,14:31) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:22) i mean above....lol I think I understand them pretty well.  It's this ridiculous 'get out of jail free' card that puzzles me, 'cause it's only available to people who agree with them, which seems neither just nor particularly coherent. But you don't judge, obviously. The MadPanda, FCD By agreeing with them, you mean agreeing that we believe what the Christian faith says about who will and who will not be going to Heaven?   Why should this puzzle you....why do you care?  This is what I don't understand. From what I can tell, quite a few of you believe the exact same thing that I do about abortion....so why the argument ?   You should have no issues about the "get out of jail (I think you're meaning hell) free card".  You should be worried about legislation on abortion only.  Hell doesn't have anything to do with this issue. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:06    Allright - bounce this to the FTK thread or BW, please. Delete the duplicates. Clean up on ISLE TARD. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:06    Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,14:52) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable.  This is the only reason why I see legislature should be involved.  Meat markets should be out of the question legally.  Of course, again, this puts to question....at what point (how many or what kind of abortions performed) should someone be prosecuted.  I simply cannot answer that.  It's too difficult.  Yes, I'm bailing on that one....as a woman, I simply can't answer it...too many emotions involved.  In other words, im torn. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:15    Quote Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Quite honestly, I mean, I'm not familiar with this case and I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying if it is a case such as I think of. So... ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ETA: If you are talking about Kermit Gosnell, then I'm more than willing to take your side, puke a few times, and agree with you wholeheartedly. -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:16    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:06) Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,14:52) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable.  This is the only reason why I see legislature should be involved.  Meat markets should be out of the question legally.  Of course, again, this puts to question....at what point (how many or what kind of abortions performed) should someone be prosecuted.  I simply cannot answer that.  It's too difficult.  Yes, I'm bailing on that one....as a woman, I simply can't answer it...too many emotions involved.  In other words, im torn. Sorry..didn't answer the second question.  There's not much in scripture regarding abortion from what I've read.  There are verses about children in the womb and how they are fearfully and wonderfully made, but nothing specific. It doesn't take bible verses alone to find abortion repugnant.  I've had children and been in awe of the entire process.  It's not just Christians who are against abortion.  Life is sacred....we find murder wrong no matter who we are. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

MadPanda, FCD Posts: 267 Joined: Nov. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:17    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:00) By agreeing with them, you mean agreeing that we believe what the Christian faith says about who will and who will not be going to Heaven?   Why should this puzzle you....why do you care?  This is what I don't understand. From what I can tell, quite a few of you believe the exact same thing that I do about abortion....so why the argument ?   You should have no issues about the "get out of jail (I think you're meaning hell) free card".  You should be worried about legislation on abortion only.  Hell doesn't have anything to do with this issue. We ARE worried about legislation.  If you haven't noticed, there are a whole bunch of people who claim to be on your team who are working very hard to make it illegal, hard to get, expensive...without also expanding and improving education and other services to make it rare. So long as one side insists on grouping in late-term abortions done to save the health of the mother in with stereotyped birth control carelessness, there will be argument.   Go talk to your coreligionists about it instead of arguing with us. The MadPanda, FCD -------------- "No matter how ridiculous the internet tough guy, a thorough mocking is more effective than a swift kick to the gentleman vegetables with a hobnailed boot" --Louis

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:19    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,15:15) Quote Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Quite honestly, I mean, I'm not so familiar with this case and I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying if it is a case such as I think of. So... ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? He put a scissor into the necks of late term newborns who did not die during the abortion process.  He killed a woman by giving the wrong amount of anestesia.  Many more horrors stories that, if found to be accurate, pretty much should be prosecuted. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:23    "We ARE worried about legislation." Have abortions....Im not going to stop anyone...wouldn't vote to make it illegal.  But, I would vote to keep *my* tax dollars from funding it.  So, yes, that I would do.  Makes my physically ill thinking that I might fund an abortion. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:23    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,21:19) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,15:15) Quote Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Quite honestly, I mean, I'm not so familiar with this case and I hope you are not saying what I think you are saying if it is a case such as I think of. So... ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? He put a scissor into the necks of late term newborns who did not die during the abortion process.  He killed a woman by giving the wrong amount of anestesia.  Many more horrors stories that, if found to be accurate, pretty much should be prosecuted. Ok, so it's Kermit Gosnell you were talking about. Then I agree with you 200%. This guy is a psycho. And I even feel both sad and revulsed. -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:29    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:16) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:06) Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,14:52)   Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable.  This is the only reason why I see legislature should be involved.  Meat markets should be out of the question legally.  Of course, again, this puts to question....at what point (how many or what kind of abortions performed) should someone be prosecuted.  I simply cannot answer that.  It's too difficult.  Yes, I'm bailing on that one....as a woman, I simply can't answer it...too many emotions involved.  In other words, im torn. Sorry..didn't answer the second question.  There's not much in scripture regarding abortion from what I've read.  There are verses about children in the womb and how they are fearfully and wonderfully made, but nothing specific. It doesn't take bible verses alone to find abortion repugnant.  I've had children and been in awe of the entire process.  It's not just Christians who are against abortion.  Life is sacred....we find murder wrong no matter who we are. That's what I thought.  I find it curious that the opposition to abortion is overwhelmingly from certain branches of Christianity, despite little or no biblical support for this position. I've never met anyone who doesn't find murder wrong, FTK.  What's interesting to me is why so many people define abortion as murder.  The "fertilised egg=human" concept doesn't appear to come directly from Christianity's source document, so why is it so pervasive? -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:38    Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,15:29) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:16) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:06)   Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,14:52)   Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable.  This is the only reason why I see legislature should be involved.  Meat markets should be out of the question legally.  Of course, again, this puts to question....at what point (how many or what kind of abortions performed) should someone be prosecuted.  I simply cannot answer that.  It's too difficult.  Yes, I'm bailing on that one....as a woman, I simply can't answer it...too many emotions involved.  In other words, im torn. Sorry..didn't answer the second question.  There's not much in scripture regarding abortion from what I've read.  There are verses about children in the womb and how they are fearfully and wonderfully made, but nothing specific. It doesn't take bible verses alone to find abortion repugnant.  I've had children and been in awe of the entire process.  It's not just Christians who are against abortion.  Life is sacred....we find murder wrong no matter who we are. That's what I thought.  I find it curious that the opposition to abortion is overwhelmingly from certain branches of Christianity, despite little or no biblical support for this position. I've never met anyone who doesn't find murder wrong, FTK.  What's interesting to me is why so many people define abortion as murder.  The "fertilised egg=human" concept doesn't appear to come directly from Christianity's source document, so why is it so pervasive? What I find interesting is that adament pro-choice advocates usually only refer to abortion in terms of egg and sperm or offer a picture of a zygote. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:49    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:38) Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,15:29) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:16)   Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:06)   Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,14:52)     Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable.  This is the only reason why I see legislature should be involved.  Meat markets should be out of the question legally.  Of course, again, this puts to question....at what point (how many or what kind of abortions performed) should someone be prosecuted.  I simply cannot answer that.  It's too difficult.  Yes, I'm bailing on that one....as a woman, I simply can't answer it...too many emotions involved.  In other words, im torn. Sorry..didn't answer the second question.  There's not much in scripture regarding abortion from what I've read.  There are verses about children in the womb and how they are fearfully and wonderfully made, but nothing specific. It doesn't take bible verses alone to find abortion repugnant.  I've had children and been in awe of the entire process.  It's not just Christians who are against abortion.  Life is sacred....we find murder wrong no matter who we are. That's what I thought.  I find it curious that the opposition to abortion is overwhelmingly from certain branches of Christianity, despite little or no biblical support for this position. I've never met anyone who doesn't find murder wrong, FTK.  What's interesting to me is why so many people define abortion as murder.  The "fertilised egg=human" concept doesn't appear to come directly from Christianity's source document, so why is it so pervasive? What I find interesting is that adament pro-choice advocates usually only refer to abortion in terms of egg and sperm or offer a picture of a zygote. So when does it become murder, FTK? -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,15:50    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:38) What I find interesting is that adament pro-choice advocates usually only refer to abortion in terms of egg and sperm or offer a picture of a zygote. What I find interesting is that adament anti-choice advocates usually only refer to abortion in terms of waving posters showing miscarriages and pretending they represent abortions outside clinics. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,16:00    Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,15:49) Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:38) Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,15:29)   Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:16)   Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,15:06)     Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 25 2011,14:52)     Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:22) And abortion is murder, yes? Yes So, to rephrase an earlier question:  if an abortion is performed, who should be punished, and in what way? Edit:  And in case my earlier question was missed: what specifically does the Bible say about abortion? Well, in the case of the Philadephia slaughter, I think the case could be made that the doc should be held accountable.  This is the only reason why I see legislature should be involved.  Meat markets should be out of the question legally.  Of course, again, this puts to question....at what point (how many or what kind of abortions performed) should someone be prosecuted.  I simply cannot answer that.  It's too difficult.  Yes, I'm bailing on that one....as a woman, I simply can't answer it...too many emotions involved.  In other words, im torn. Sorry..didn't answer the second question.  There's not much in scripture regarding abortion from what I've read.  There are verses about children in the womb and how they are fearfully and wonderfully made, but nothing specific. It doesn't take bible verses alone to find abortion repugnant.  I've had children and been in awe of the entire process.  It's not just Christians who are against abortion.  Life is sacred....we find murder wrong no matter who we are. That's what I thought.  I find it curious that the opposition to abortion is overwhelmingly from certain branches of Christianity, despite little or no biblical support for this position. I've never met anyone who doesn't find murder wrong, FTK.  What's interesting to me is why so many people define abortion as murder.  The "fertilised egg=human" concept doesn't appear to come directly from Christianity's source document, so why is it so pervasive? What I find interesting is that adament pro-choice advocates usually only refer to abortion in terms of egg and sperm or offer a picture of a zygote. So when does it become murder, FTK? That's the question I can't answer legally.  I just explained that above.  I simply can't.  Emotionally and in *my* heart, that baby is a special human being at conception.  I don't think there are many people out there who would not consider what Gosnell did murder.  As for other abortion clinics...I don't know what to do but pray and turn a blind eye I guess.  I'd opt for pushing education and support rather than going after abortion doctors.  But, someone has to do it, or we might end up with more Gosnells. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,16:15    Quote I don't think there are many people out there who would not consider what Gosnell did murder Apart from Jeff Dahmer...He would call it "funtime". So please don't bunch up people that don't feel the same depth of emmotional responses towards aborted meat (oups) as you do to sadistical serial killers. For fuck's sake, Dahmer is an angel compared to your imaginary friend, according to the OT. I know I shouldn't go there, but it's 23.15 in France, I had a nice dinner, and I'm going to get an even nicer massage. So there! -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

evil bfish with a goatee Posts: 4 Joined: Jan. 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,16:17    Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,14:37) Last brag (I kind of promise): It's a close call whether he is better on the piano or the violin. (We'll have get a video of that posted some day.) You're a freaking tiger mom, you are! :)

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2011,16:31    Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:00) I'd opt for pushing education and support rather than going after abortion doctors.  But, someone has to do it, or we might end up with more Gosnells. I'm going to put that down to sloppy writing for now.  You're not really advocating someone "going after abortion doctors", are you? -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

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