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Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,12:04    Quote StephenB: If ID researchers can’t do “abductions” in the name of science then Darwinists must be held to the same standard. Anyone can make abductions, deductions, inductions, whatever. A scientific hypothesis can come from deep-thought or vast experience in a field of study, but it can also come from a hunch, a fanciful thought-experiment, or a Muse of Apollo. However any scientific hypothesis must be reasonably consistent with known observations and make specific and distinguishing empirical predictions. The Scientific Method -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,12:11    Quote (Zachriel @ Mar. 20 2008,12:04)   Quote StephenB: If ID researchers can’t do “abductions” in the name of science then Darwinists must be held to the same standard. Anyone can make abductions, deductions, inductions, whatever. A scientific hypothesis can come from deep-thought or vast experience in a field of study, but it can also come from a hunch, a fanciful thought-experiment, or a Muse of Apollo. However any scientific hypothesis must be reasonably consistent with known observations and make specific and distinguishing empirical predictions. "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,12:46    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Mar. 20 2008,12:11) "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Arden - where / who  is this beautiful little quote from? -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,12:51    oldmanintheskydidntdoit Quote Roll up, roll up. Come gather round and watch the magical caculation of CSI take place. Many have said it cannot be done, but lo! Dave of Scot has performed this feat, come gather round and watch.... Unfortunately, DaveScot choose ATP synthase as an example. Today PZ discusses a new paper on ATP synthase over at Pharyngula and concludes: Quote This is obviously what we'd expect from evolution: that a molecular machine would not be an all-or-nothing affair, but that incremental variations would produce incremental changes in efficiency. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,12:53    Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 20 2008,12:46)   Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Mar. 20 2008,12:11) "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Arden - where / who  is this beautiful little quote from? Oh please, you should know this! -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,12:59    Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 20 2008,12:46) Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Mar. 20 2008,12:11) "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" Arden - where / who  is this beautiful little quote from? That would be Homer Simpson I believe. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,13:03    Quote kairosfocus: The only reason the RvS case has not gone to court is the peculiarities of his status as a research associate. That's the purported reason OSC couldn't take action, but there is nothing preventing Sternberg from taking a private action. Quote kairosfocus: Indeed, the letter that Bob just tried to make light of is itself serious and sobering reading, ... Let's read a bit. "The first actions taken against you after the Meyer article were to research your scientific education and writings." Terrible. Imagine researching someone's scientific education and writings. Simply terrible. "This was in conjunction with researching your off-duty professional associations." Oh my. It just gets worse. How could they possibly find out such things? -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,13:04    The designer has been found! http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2008/03/exoplanet Quote Using the Hubble Space Telescope, they detected trace amounts of methane on a swirling gas giant about 63 light-years from our own planet. Being a gas giant, there's almost no chance this discovery represents extrasolar life. A unique find, just the same. 'HD 189733b, a so-called "hot Jupiter," located 63 light years away, has proven a boon for scientists studying exoplanets. Its large size and proximity to its star mean that it dims the star's light more than any other known exoplanet. Combine that with its home star's high brightness, and scientists find that the system creates the best viewing conditions of any known extrasolar system. At different wavelengths, every atom and molecule has its own telltale footprint, so scientists can convert what are known as absorption spectra into the chemical composition of the object they're looking at.'" Text is from Slashdot. So, ID fans, does this mean the designer is ET? If not, who designed those "impossible to form on their own" organic molecules? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,13:12    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 20 2008,13:04) The designer has been found! http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2008/03/exoplanet   Quote Using the Hubble Space Telescope, they detected trace amounts of methane on a swirling gas giant about 63 light-years from our own planet. Being a gas giant, there's almost no chance this discovery represents extrasolar life. A unique find, just the same. 'HD 189733b, a so-called "hot Jupiter," located 63 light years away, has proven a boon for scientists studying exoplanets. Its large size and proximity to its star mean that it dims the star's light more than any other known exoplanet. Combine that with its home star's high brightness, and scientists find that the system creates the best viewing conditions of any known extrasolar system. At different wavelengths, every atom and molecule has its own telltale footprint, so scientists can convert what are known as absorption spectra into the chemical composition of the object they're looking at.'" Text is from Slashdot. So, ID fans, does this mean the designer is ET? If not, who designed those "impossible to form on their own" organic molecules? Well, this is good news For Guillermo Gonzalez ! He can write a Whole New Book - The Privileged Planet  Planets I'll bet all those Darwanistas in IA will sure be sorry now@! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,13:51    priceless: scordova   Quote A great way to meet authors and commenters from the Uncommon Descent community is to attend Discovery Institute events like this one: The Devil’s Delusion U.S. Book Tour with David Berlinski TannebergOmega   Quote Sal, the link goes to a book on Chaos Theory. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,14:03    Here's the real link. Dig the swell devil's horns on the cover. This from one of the most 'sciency' types the IDers can claim. All together now: ALL SCIENCE SO FAR!!! -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,14:30    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Mar. 20 2008,14:03) Here's the real link. Dig the swell devil's horns on the cover. This from one of the most 'sciency' types the IDers can claim. All together now: ALL SCIENCE SO FAR!!! The "Editorial Reviews" are amazing     Quote “With high style and light-hearted disdain, David Berlinski deflates the intellectual pretensions of the scientific atheist crowd. Maybe they can recite the Periodic Table by heart, but the secular Berlinski shows that this doesn’t get them very far in reasoning about much weightier matters.” —Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biological Sciences, Lehigh University, bestselling author of Darwin’s Black Box and The Edge of Evolution intellectual pretensions of the scientific atheist crowd? What, would that be the published scientific atheist crowd? Or the unpublished navel gazing of the ID crowd? What gets me is that Behe and his ilk have got all the time in the world yet never seem to actually do anything significant that progresses human knowedge yet have the chutzpah to critisise the "intellectual pretensions of the scientific atheist crowd" What about the intellectual pretension of Intelligent Design Mr Behe?   Quote Maybe they can recite the Periodic Table by heart Or maybe, just maybe, they can invent* the computer you sit at typing your vacuous crap Mr Behe. What has "ID" ever brought to the table? From reading Uncommon Descent recently it seems that ID is attempting to simply become a synonym for "research". A given research project is labeled "Intelligent Design" apparently because "intelligent people designed the experiment". Yet at the same time the ID brain surgeon, no less, is claiming that research even the authors even say is using "Darwinism" is not. So ID wants the power to not only co-op and claim as it's own research simply because it involved "design" (and all "design" is of course "intelligent design") it wants to say when "Darwinism" is in use elsewhere! I can't wait till expelled comes out and nothing whatsoever happens in the mainstream. Boy, will that be a fun week at UD. Get that save button at the ready, those threads will disappear faster then Dembski at Dover. Church basements here it comes! EDIT and *: I don't know if the people who invented computers were atheist or not, and it does not really matter. The point is that even if they believed in X then X did not necessarily interfere with their applicaiton of the scientific method, and that also did not exclude anything from the potential scope of their investigations. I know this because I don't have to pray to my PC in the morning to get it started. Mostly.

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,16:02    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 20 2008,11:04) The designer has been found! http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2008/03/exoplanet Text is from Slashdot. So, ID fans, does this mean the designer is ET? If not, who designed those "impossible to form on their own" organic molecules? A bit OT, but the headline on that story really bugs me. Seeing the spectra of an exo-planet is very exciting, and bodes well for being able to detect life, but calling methane the "Molecular Basis of Life" is very misleading. Yeah, carbon compounds are "the basis of life", and methane might have played an important role in the early earth, but this particular discovery almost certainly has nothing to do with life. We know carbon is on of the common elements in the universe, and expect to find it just about everywhere. Now when we see the spectra of high concentrations of O2 in an exoplanet atmosphere, that will give the IDiots something to chew on.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,16:57    Yeah, all we know about that exo-planet is that it has gas...

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,18:08    Secular Berlinski?  Since when has that mattered in science?  Behe really needs to retire properly. And is Berlinski "secular"?  What on earth does it mean?

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,20:35    Quote (guthrie @ Mar. 20 2008,18:08) Secular Berlinski?  Since when has that mattered in science?  Behe really needs to retire properly. And is Berlinski "secular"?  What on earth does it mean? ....let me explain.... Dr Dr Berlinski Berlinski is a reformed calculus addict. He had no limits when he was inhaling whiteboard marker fumes. And seriously embarrassed himself giving a lecture to the worlds best Jewish abacus flickers in Vienna (or some other holocaust victim) while on a bender. He saw the magic of god on that whiteboard they saw a crazed guy who had too much Viagra in his pocket. He knows Jehovah is just a scam run by a bunch of foreskin collecting temple clowns but he is still deeply troubled by Jed’s (the real one not the cardboard cutout) failure to save Dr.Dr.B B from historical obscurity as Einstein’s putative intellectual prodigal son and cast him pillar like into the limelight. Now since he is smartest of the entire ID crowd ......just ask him.....well you don't actually have to ....he did that himself, when he interviewed himself for one of their rags. I digress. Where was I? Oh yeah confused half believer he would use to describe himself. -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Hermagoras Posts: 1260 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,20:54    The patience of Jack Krebs is remarkable. -------------- "I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,20:58    Quote (guthrie @ Mar. 20 2008,18:08) Secular Berlinski?  Since when has that mattered in science?  Behe really needs to retire properly. And is Berlinski "secular"?  What on earth does it mean? Simple. Behe is trying to claim that you don't have to be religious to write a book with a picture of the devil on the front claiming that atheists are evil, and crowing about how them fancypants scientists haven't 'proven the nonexistence of God'. He's lying, of course. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Jkrebs Posts: 590 Joined: Sep. 2004 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,21:32    Thanks, Hermagoras.  At least I think "thanks" - some may see what I'm doing as sort of perverse, like "why bother."  :) But I'm on spring break, working in my office and watching basketball, and I've got drawn into that thread for both exercise and recreation, and because it's got some topics important to me.  I also consider it my duty to defend the Kansas science standards. I find it useful and interesting to try to draw out the ideas of folks and see where it takes me.  If I'm patient and polite then the conversation doesn't degenerate (or if it does it's not my fault), and so I learn what ideas people have and I learn, by doing, what I have to say on the subject. And maybe I influence someone, or give someone else some good ideas. So hopefully I've had some useful things to say over there. And I am particularly interested in how to counter the typical creationist idea that calculating simple combinations means something.  I teach simple stats to high school students, and even there we talk about probability trees and conditional probability.  The fact that these guys don't understand that figuring the probability of a chain of events is vastly harder and much more realistic than simple combinations is beyond me.

Hermagoras Posts: 1260 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,21:47    Quote (Jkrebs @ Mar. 20 2008,21:32) Thanks, Hermagoras.  At least I think "thanks" - some may see what I'm doing as sort of perverse, like "why bother."  :) But I'm on spring break, working in my office and watching basketball, and I've got drawn into that thread for both exercise and recreation, and because it's got some topics important to me.  I also consider it my duty to defend the Kansas science standards. I find it useful and interesting to try to draw out the ideas of folks and see where it takes me.  If I'm patient and polite then the conversation doesn't degenerate (or if it does it's not my fault), and so I learn what ideas people have and I learn, by doing, what I have to say on the subject. And maybe I influence someone, or give someone else some good ideas. So hopefully I've had some useful things to say over there. And I am particularly interested in how to counter the typical creationist idea that calculating simple combinations means something.  I teach simple stats to high school students, and even there we talk about probability trees and conditional probability.  The fact that these guys don't understand that figuring the probability of a chain of events is vastly harder and much more realistic than simple combinations is beyond me. You're quite welcome Jack.  I appreciate anyone who tries to talk sense, even if the recipients don't want to hear it.  That you've been able to tolerate the odious kairosfocus says a lot about you. BTW, expect a PM from me about something else. -------------- "I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,22:12    Quote (Jkrebs @ Mar. 20 2008,22:32) And I am particularly interested in how to counter the typical creationist idea that calculating simple combinations means something.  I teach simple stats to high school students, and even there we talk about probability trees and conditional probability.  The fact that these guys don't understand that figuring the probability of a chain of events is vastly harder and much more realistic than simple combinations is beyond me. Howard Van Till certainly laid the issue out clearly in his 2002 review of No Free Lunch. See pages 17 - 19  here. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Jkrebs Posts: 590 Joined: Sep. 2004 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,22:39    Excellent. Thanks.  The very basics of that idea is what I am trying to convey over at UD, but Van Till does a great job of explaining it more thoroughly, with quotes from No Free Lunch. I like other anti-ID stuff Van Till has written also. By the way I went round and round about this with Sal Cordova and others over at ARN many years ago.  You can imagine how that went.

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2008,23:24    Quote (Jkrebs @ Mar. 20 2008,22:39) Excellent. Thanks.  The very basics of that idea is what I am trying to convey over at UD, but Van Till does a great job of explaining it more thoroughly, with quotes from No Free Lunch. I like other anti-ID stuff Van Till has written also. By the way I went round and round about this with Sal Cordova and others over at ARN many years ago.  You can imagine how that went. Yeah Sal can be good value when you stretch his little spandex brain...but this joke is funnier Quote Saul is working in his store when he hears a booming voice from above: "Saul, sell your business." He ignores it. It goes on for days. "Saul, sell your business for $3 million." After weeks of this, he relents, sells his store. The voice says ‘Saul, go to Las Vegas." He asks why. "Saul, take the $3 million to Las Vegas." He obeys, goes to a casino. Voice says, "Saul , go to the blackjack table and put it down all on one hand." He hesitates but knows he must. He’s dealt an 18. The dealer has a six showing. "Saul, take a card." What? The dealer has -- "Take a card!" He tells the dealer to hit him. Saul gets an ace. Nineteen. He breathes easy. "Saul, take another card." What? "TAKE ANOTHER CARD!" He asks for another card. It’s another ace. He has twenty. "Saul, take another card," the voice commands. I have twenty! Saul shouts. "TAKE ANOTHER CARD!!" booms the voice. Hit me,Saul says. He gets another ace. Twenty one. The booming voice goes: "un-fucking-believable!" -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,00:53    Oh, this is TOO RICH!  On Pharyngula, PZ Meyers writes that he was standing in line to see a preview of Expelled! when a policeman pulled him out of line and told him that he couldn't see the movie.  Then a few minutes later he came back and said that he had to leave the premises.  So PZ politely complied. But the idiots let PZ's wife and daughter see the movie, along with their guest: Richard Dawkins!!

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,01:02    CeilingCat: 1) Stop watching me when I do that. It's creepy. 2) There are more appropriate threads for this topic, such as the thread about Expelled.

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,01:15    As of 1:46 AM (Minnesota Standard Time), there are over 500 comments.  The producers of Expelled! obviously gave Dembski the night off and had his Friday meltdown for him, a few hours early.

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,01:16    stevestory, see the above about the tie to UD.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,02:43    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....xpelled Quote 18 March 2008 Pat Robertson interviews Ben Stein about EXPELLED William Dembski Check out this CBN segment that features Ben Stein, David Berlinski and yours truly: GO HERE. These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. It's like being punched in the face with tard. I'm getting too old for this.

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,03:02    Quote He had no limits when he was inhaling whiteboard marker fumes. *ahem*  Chalk dust, please. Bloody kids. -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2008,03:43    Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 21 2008,02:43) http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....xpelled Quote 18 March 2008 Pat Robertson interviews Ben Stein about EXPELLED William Dembski Check out this CBN segment that features Ben Stein, David Berlinski and yours truly: GO HERE. These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. It's like being punched in the face with tard. I'm getting too old for this. Hahahahahahahah. Ben Stein thinks there's not going to be a depression ... because the Federal Reserve will flood the country with money. Because that never does anything bad, and will certainly save us all. Two minutes later, he complains about the falling value of the dollar. He appears to see no contradiction between those two things. And then he moves on to ID ... -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

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