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fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 03 2012,14:04    Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 03 2012,11:19) P. O. T. W. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Amadan Posts: 1337 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 03 2012,18:23    Quote (fnxtr @ July 03 2012,20:04) Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 03 2012,11:19) P. O. T. W. Seconded Infinitied. -------------- "People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011 JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

NormOlsen Posts: 104 Joined: Nov. 2011 (Permalink) Posted: July 03 2012,18:49    Quote (Amadan @ July 03 2012,18:23)   Quote (fnxtr @ July 03 2012,20:04)   Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 03 2012,11:19) P. O. T. W. Seconded Infinitied. Infinitied + 1

The whole truth Posts: 1554 Joined: Jan. 2012 (Permalink) Posted: July 04 2012,02:10    Nice one Kattarina. On another note, over on his pathetic blog, in the "Oleg Tchernyshyov- Still Ignorant of GAs" thread, joey says: "And no, I do not have any rights to post code that I wrote for a company some 15 years ago. I don't take that stuff home and keep it around." joey has also said that he has written, used, and debugged GAs. So, with all that in mind I submitted the following comment on his blog, which he will likely never allow to be posted:   Hey joey, why don't you write a GA right now and post it here? You say that you don't have the rights to post the ones you allegedly wrote for some company in the past but what's stopping you from writing one or more now? Go head joey, show your GA writing skills. -------------- Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 04 2012,09:35    What's the matter Joe?  Rich kicking your ass on your own blog, so you have to come to mine and fill it with your vindictive idiocy. Why you do you post your questions here so we can discuss them like adults... well, I can discuss them like adults.  You have proven time and again that you are not capable of acting like an adult. Anyway, I'm here, feel free to talk... or chicken out. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

The whole truth Posts: 1554 Joined: Jan. 2012 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,09:58    Want some laughs? Check out this thread. Besides the other funny stuff joey says, he actually let through one of my questions. His answer is pretty funny. In another thread there joey said: "One thing is clear, there isn't any credible evidence for evolutionism" To which I submitted this response, which hasn't been posted yet and may never be: It's interesting that you chose to use the word "evolutionism" instead of evolution. You and the other IDiots constantly condemn "evolutionists" which must mean that you and the other IDiots believe that "evolutionism" exists. Plus, here is a definition of the word "evolutionism": "Evolutionism, as opposed to Creationism, is the advocacy of or belief in biological evolution.[1] Therefore one who believes in or supports a theory of evolution[2] would be referred to as an evolutionist. Evolutionism, used in a general sense, encompasses any type of biological evolutionist. Broken down into two categories, "Evolutionism" and "Evolutionists" usually involve Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists (evolution without God) and Theistic Evolutionists (evolution with God). Those categories can be further broken down, but they are the main two." There's more here: http://www.conservapedia.com/Evoluti....tionism As even you should be able to see, "evolutionism" is not the same thing as evolution itself. Evolutionism is the acceptance, belief, or advocacy of evolution, and based on the above definition and on your own constant condemnation of "evolutionists" or what you call "evotards" there certainly is credible evidence of "evolutionism". Wanna try again? ETA: IDiocy I don't think he's going to post my last submitted comment in that thread. Edited by The whole truth on July 05 2012,09:20 -------------- Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,10:57    I have never written a GA. Joe, would you like to play a game? Pick a task amenable to GAs. We will then both write a GA to solve that problem. Winner is the the most accurate, or if tied the faster to run. As I have never done this before and you used to do it for a living you will win! Unless you are making it up..... Offer open 2 weeks. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,11:01    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 05 2012,10:57) I have never written a GA. Joe, would you like to play a game? Pick a task amenable to GAs. We will then both write a GA to solve that problem. Winner is the the most accurate, or if tied the faster to run. As I have never done this before and you used to do it for a living you will win! Unless you are making it up..... Offer open 2 weeks. I bet he cannot understand what type of tasks are actually suited to GAs. I further bet that he can't come up with a task that is suitable, even if he goes and looks it up on Wikipedia. I even further bet, that even if he could accomplish those two steps, he couldn't actually program a VCR to record Vampire Nymphs in Chains.... much less a genetic algorithm. Full disclosure, I'm not a programmer.  No way, but I do know what tasks are suitable for a GA.  It's not that hard... but Joey "a mol is one molecule" G is pretty hopeless. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,11:05    Quote (OgreMkV @ July 05 2012,11:01) Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 05 2012,10:57) I have never written a GA. Joe, would you like to play a game? Pick a task amenable to GAs. We will then both write a GA to solve that problem. Winner is the the most accurate, or if tied the faster to run. As I have never done this before and you used to do it for a living you will win! Unless you are making it up..... Offer open 2 weeks. I bet he cannot understand what type of tasks are actually suited to GAs. I further bet that he can't come up with a task that is suitable, even if he goes and looks it up on Wikipedia. I even further bet, that even if he could accomplish those two steps, he couldn't actually program a VCR to record Vampire Nymphs in Chains.... much less a genetic algorithm. Full disclosure, I'm not a programmer.  No way, but I do know what tasks are suitable for a GA.  It's not that hard... but Joey "a mol is one molecule" G is pretty hopeless. Travelling salesman. http://www.lalena.com/ai....tsp -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,11:37    Quote (Richardthughes @ July 05 2012,09:05) Quote (OgreMkV @ July 05 2012,11:01) Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 05 2012,10:57) I have never written a GA. Joe, would you like to play a game? Pick a task amenable to GAs. We will then both write a GA to solve that problem. Winner is the the most accurate, or if tied the faster to run. As I have never done this before and you used to do it for a living you will win! Unless you are making it up..... Offer open 2 weeks. I bet he cannot understand what type of tasks are actually suited to GAs. I further bet that he can't come up with a task that is suitable, even if he goes and looks it up on Wikipedia. I even further bet, that even if he could accomplish those two steps, he couldn't actually program a VCR to record Vampire Nymphs in Chains.... much less a genetic algorithm. Full disclosure, I'm not a programmer.  No way, but I do know what tasks are suitable for a GA.  It's not that hard... but Joey "a mol is one molecule" G is pretty hopeless. Travelling salesman. http://www.lalena.com/ai....t........tsp Optimal sequence of street corners for Joe to rant on. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,11:51    I've got him at a decent 8/10 meltdown on his blog right now.   -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

George Posts: 316 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,12:17    Quote (Richardthughes @ July 05 2012,11:51) I've got him at a decent 8/10 meltdown on his blog right now.   :p That's either tantamount to child-like-person abuse or enabling his masochistic tendencies.  Not sure which.

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,13:25    Hey Joey-chicken, Posting something on obesity doesn't change the fact that eating healthy will NOT stop people from needing medical care. Your original comment on my blog actually had a point, it was the wrong point and it was utterly unrelated to anything I said, but it was a valid point. Take your miniscule "win" and accept it with grace.  Trying to make like my blog is about preventative medicine is just attacking a strawman.  Unfortunately, strawmen are about the only men you can actually fight and have at least 50% chance of winning. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,13:27    Hey Rich, ask him if the genome encodes 'information'.  If so, does that mean that non-organisms can't have information.. or that genetic algorithms don't use information? Oh this could be so fun.  Unfortunately, I have to get back to work now. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,14:44    Sorry Joey, I'm still not letting you comment on my blog until you can learn to talk like an adult. However, let me ask you to name one other method of learning something.  A method other than science.  Go ahead, I'll wait. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,14:46    Quote (OgreMkV @ July 05 2012,14:44) Sorry Joey, I'm still not letting you comment on my blog until you can learn to talk like an adult. However, let me ask you to name one other method of learning something.  A method other than science.  Go ahead, I'll wait. YA SEE IOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,14:50    Rich, you need to remind Joey about the checkers playing program on talk.origins archive. The programmers did not give the program a goal, or the rules of checkers, or even what it took to win.  They didn't even tell it when it won or lost a game. They only told the program whether the last 5 trials were good or poor. Oops... Joey fails.  Again.  It's not even funny any more. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,20:37    Quote (Richardthughes @ July 05 2012,11:05) Quote (OgreMkV @ July 05 2012,11:01) Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 05 2012,10:57) I have never written a GA. Joe, would you like to play a game? Pick a task amenable to GAs. We will then both write a GA to solve that problem. Winner is the the most accurate, or if tied the faster to run. As I have never done this before and you used to do it for a living you will win! Unless you are making it up..... Offer open 2 weeks. I bet he cannot understand what type of tasks are actually suited to GAs. I further bet that he can't come up with a task that is suitable, even if he goes and looks it up on Wikipedia. I even further bet, that even if he could accomplish those two steps, he couldn't actually program a VCR to record Vampire Nymphs in Chains.... much less a genetic algorithm. Full disclosure, I'm not a programmer.  No way, but I do know what tasks are suitable for a GA.  It's not that hard... but Joey "a mol is one molecule" G is pretty hopeless. Travelling salesman. http://www.lalena.com/ai....t........tsp The Traveling Salesman Problem was exactly the problem I tasked Dembski with in 1997 at the NTSE conference. Evolutionary computation finds good approximate solutions to the TSP, so where exactly does the information of the solution come from, since Dembski's claim was that algorithms couldn't provide it. You will look in vain for Dembski since then taking up that challenge. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,21:24    Someone should ask Frill to pit his checkers program against Anaconda. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Texas Teach Posts: 2084 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 05 2012,23:03    Quote (midwifetoad @ July 05 2012,21:24) Someone should ask Frill to pit his checkers program against Anaconda. Since `Ras hasn't been around lately (except maybe as Dr. Jammer (pm yourself you magnificent bastard)), I feel I must do this in his stead: I'd like to see him fight an anaconda in a pit. -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,08:19    Quote Blogger Joe G said...    I would like to hear more about how the checker playing GA that has a goal of playing checkers, doesn't have a goal.    Amazing that not one evoTARD stepped forward to correct Kevin- that tells me they didn't have a clue... There is another option Joe.  If no one has ever stepped forward to correct me, could it be that I'm (gasp)... right? More Joe flailing Hey Joey-chicken little, here's the research paper on that checkers program.  Why don't you take a look hmm? Chellapilla K and Fogel DB (2001) “Evolving an Expert Checkers Playing Program without Using Human Expertise,” IEEE Transactions on Evolutionary Computation, Vol. 5:4, pp. 422-428 (link) Oh wait, it's 25 pages long.  Joe is known for not being able to keep more than 2 sentences in memory at any one point in time. eta comments from the paper Quote Only the position of the pieces on the board, the spatial characteristics of the checkerboard, and the piece differential are made available as explicit data to be processed. In other words, the checkers playing program wasn't told even what the goal was or how to achieve that goal. Quote More from the paper: ?You are told the rules of how the pieces move (i.e., diagonally, forced jumps, kings) and that the piece differential is available as a feature. You are not, however, told whether or not this differential is favorable or unfavorable (there is a version of checkers termed “suicide checkers” where the object is to “lose” as fast as possible) or if it is even valuable information. Most importantly you are not told the object of the game. You simply make moves and at some point an external observer declares the game over. They do not, however, provide feedback on whether or not you won, lost, or drew. The only data you receive comes after a minimum of five such games, and is offered in the form of an overall point score. Thus you cannot know with certainly which games contributed to the overall result, or to what degree. Your challenge is to induce the appropriate moves in each game based only on this coarse level of feedback. Edited by OgreMkV on July 06 2012,08:27 -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,08:40    But Joe has written GAs professionally, so he already knows that. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,09:38    One more quote from the checkers playing GA paper. Quote This evolutionary approach to machine learning offers the potential for exploring any possible pathway presented by a complex problem. It does not complete an exhaustive search, yet it can quickly identify and converge on useful solutions. This may provide an effective means for going beyond the structured conventional engineering approach that is common to many forms of human design. The process is inherently parallel and could be accelerated greatly by utilizing a distributed network of small and inexpensive processors. Furthermore, no explicit design criteria are required. At a minimum, all that is necessary is to be able to compare two solutions and indicate which is better. The process of Darwinian evolution can then optimize the solution for the given problem. In this manner, evolutionary machine learning can meet and eventually exceed the capabilities of human expertise. my emphasis. Whoops, how about that Joe.  Some people who actually did build a GA and tested it to the point where it was ranked as high expert in a game are specifically stating that no design criteria are required. It's almost as if evolutionary principles were random with a component of selection to determine which parts were best in a certain environment and those generate the next generation. Hmm... someone ought to talk about that... oh wait... -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,09:56    After this one, I'm done. Quote Just like the checkers playing algorithm can develop exceedingly complex systems with PROGRAMMER (i.e. designer) input, evolution can do the same thing. And, it's really funny how you keep moving the goal posts Joe.  First it was "Kevin is lying." and "Is it really a GA".   Now it's all about the goals.  So, I guess you acknowledge that the paper exists.  The research was actually done and the GA developed the ability to play checkers at a high expert level, even though the programmers didn't even tell them how a game of checkers was won. Yes, Joe, the algorithms were given the board, how the pieces moved (including forced moves), and that was ALL.  The algorithm had to determine what a winning game was (remember suicide checkers?  totally different game) and then develop strategies for getting a winning game. I think I understand the problem.  it's actually a common problem with you Joe.   You are using the word 'goal' in different ways, even in the same sentence. The programmed goal of the checkers algorithm is, indeed, to play checkers.  But the goal of the experiment wasn't to play checkers, it was to WIN at checkers.   Think of it like this.  The goal of a car is to drive.  But the goal of a car race is to win.  Do you see the difference?  Probably not. The algorithm had to be told the MECHANICS of playing checkers.  However it was NOT told how to win.  All it was told was the various stated (winning, losing, partial winning/losing) after 5 games.   That's LIKE being in a race. You know how to drive a car Joe.  That's the MECHANICS of being in a car race.  But in this case, it is up to you to figure out the route and what the winning conditions are (Maybe it's not 1st place, but the highest fuel economy, or the closest to a specific time like in a rally).  That's what you are not told.  You just try different things and are then told your position in the race.  You have to compare what you did, to the result and infer what the correct strategy is. Do you understand?   Heh, what am I saying, even if you did understand, you're utterly incapable of admitting it. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Occam's Toothbrush Posts: 555 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,12:03    Quote You know how to drive a car Joe Objection!  Assumes facts not in evidence, your honor. I'm not sure we have evidence that Joe actually knows how to do anything, except blogwhore, insult, and make embarrassing errors he is congenitally incapable of recognizing, let alone admitting. -------------- "Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers ------ "You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

Kattarina98 Posts: 1267 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,14:52    Rich, I think you made a tactical mistake when you said   Quote Joe is too stupid to show he's painting himself into a corner. Let's help him. 1) Describe an experiment that is not designed, please Joe. Because now he's smelling a rat:   Quote Tell me what that has to do with anything I have said about GAs/ EAs. Or are you also too stupid to understand the OP?   Quote Its very pertinant, Joe. You'll see. start by answering the question. If all experiments are designed, that's fine too. Just say so. He keeps balking.   Quote No, it isn't and you would see if you would just tell me what that has to do with anything I have said about GAs/ EAs. Will Joe have the balls the grandeur to answer? -------------- Barry Arrington is a bitch.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,15:36    SCIENCE NEWS FLASH!!!111111elebenty!1 ID Theorist, GA Expert and hungry hungry hippo (he's eaten a lot of balls) Joe Gallien today shocked the scientific community by declaring: "Eclipses are natural experiments" Apparently you've all been using the wrong definition of 'experiment' (the science one). Whilst thank full for the laugh, we hope this hasn't caused a delay in his study of ticks, watermelon or the CSI of CAEK. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Kattarina98 Posts: 1267 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: July 06 2012,15:48    Joe, kudos for answering. I didn't expect you to. It's nice to see that amount of unwarranted confidence. Rich, congratz for unearthing this tardmine. -------------- Barry Arrington is a bitch.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 07 2012,13:32    Crosspost, as posts are getting lost: Quote FAIL. from the definition you give: " the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle" HYPOTHOSIS! and I'll repeat (and give you the benefit that it didn't get through the first time) What do you think the difference between an experiment an event and a phenomena are? If you don't think there is any difference, you can say that too. Crossposting at AtBC. ETA - looks the the origional made it through, origionlly. Edited by Richardthughes on July 07 2012,13:36 -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 07 2012,16:44    Joe Gallien: Experiment = phenomenon = event. http://www.blogger.com/comment....7262092 Take that science! I suspect this one will haunt him for a long time... -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

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