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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread

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oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,10:44    Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Dec. 21 2007,10:39) Quote (Davetard @ The Deepest Abyss of Tard) The genetic code of modern whales existed in a repressed form in the cell line leading to whales. An environmental trigger in the distant past caused a chromosome reorganization to occur which in turn led to a saltation. This is in complete accord with the indisputable testimony of the fossil record which of course is a record of abrupt emergence of radically new phenotypes followed by long periods of stability... OK, so one day the genetic code of one species reorganized itself and poof, a new species.  Hmmm.  So mom and dad were, hippos or, say, deer, but baby pops out and it's....a whale?  I hope mom was standing near the shoreline. How is a "saltation" event different from a cat giving birth to a dog, or any of the other absurd examples IDiots like to say evolution requires?  It looks like D'Tard thinks we might still get our "dat."  Won't the UD faithful be surprised when they realize ID predicted that!  Big tent indeed. Maybe DS is thinking they pupate. In goes hippo, out comes whale.... Makes as much sense as any other ID proposal I've ever seen. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,10:51    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Dec. 21 2007,10:44) Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Dec. 21 2007,10:39) Quote (Davetard @ The Deepest Abyss of Tard) The genetic code of modern whales existed in a repressed form in the cell line leading to whales. An environmental trigger in the distant past caused a chromosome reorganization to occur which in turn led to a saltation. This is in complete accord with the indisputable testimony of the fossil record which of course is a record of abrupt emergence of radically new phenotypes followed by long periods of stability... OK, so one day the genetic code of one species reorganized itself and poof, a new species.  Hmmm.  So mom and dad were, hippos or, say, deer, but baby pops out and it's....a whale?  I hope mom was standing near the shoreline. How is a "saltation" event different from a cat giving birth to a dog, or any of the other absurd examples IDiots like to say evolution requires?  It looks like D'Tard thinks we might still get our "dat."  Won't the UD faithful be surprised when they realize ID predicted that!  Big tent indeed. Maybe DS is thinking they pupate. In goes hippo, out comes whale.... Makes as much sense as any other ID proposal I've ever seen. He's trying to use science words, but the POOF is still there. ROFL@Dave.tard -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:09    Front loading knows: Future climates Future environments How all the other front loaded creatures will evolve. It's all in there, from the start. But, mutations can only destroy information, apparently. "Think-poof" is more convincing. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:13    Wah-wah GilTard: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-157682 Quote 14 GilDodgen 12/21/2007 2:25 am I’ve submitted the following to Amazon’s customer discussions team. A huge spam Amazon “book review” campaign has been organized in the last 24 hours in an attempt to discredit the book, “The Design of Life.” It is clear that almost none of these people have read the book. Furthermore, they have violated Amazon’s published posting policies. Amazon needs to implement a policy of requiring all reviewers to use their real names and provide proof of having personally purchased the book, otherwise, Amazon book reviews will lose all credibility in the future. Bwahaha. I can almost hear that sad piano. You should have to send in a picture of you with the book and answer a short quiz, to post your review. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:15    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 21 2007,11:09) Front loading knows: Future climates Future environments How all the other front loaded creatures will evolve. It's all in there, from the start. But, mutations can only destroy information, apparently. Wouldn't that, then, imply that man is not the pinnacle of creation, but the nadir? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Occam's Toothbrush Posts: 555 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:18    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 21 2007,12:09) Front loading knows: Future climates Future environments How all the other front loaded creatures will evolve. It's all in there, from the start. But, mutations can only destroy information, apparently. "Think-poof" is more convincing. More like "think-proof." -------------- "Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers ------ "You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:18    What does it tell us about an intelligent designer whose front-loads fail 90% of the time? Most all of his front-loads seem to become extinct.  Is this the celestial equivalent of someone cruelly pulling the wings off of flies to satisfy some morbid curiosity?  Or maybe the intelligent designer is simply incompetent.  If that's true should his license to front-load be revoked? I do wish the IDC tards would shed more light on the nature of the intelligent designer. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:23    It was front loaded for extinction to test your faith, silly. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,11:25    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Dec. 21 2007,11:18) What does it tell us about an intelligent designer who's front-loads fail 90% of the time? Most all of his front-loads seem to become extinct.  Is this the celestial equivalent of someone cruelly pulling the wings off of flies to satisfy some morbid curiosity?  Or maybe the intelligent designer is simply incompetent.  If that's true should his license to front-load be revoked? I do wish the IDC tards would shed more light on the nature of the intelligent designer. Actually, I think these extinctions are also part of God's someone's pantfrontloading as well. Their extinctions were frontloaded to get them out of the way for mankind's needs. For instance, the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker was frontloaded to need a huge amount of old growth riverbottom forest per breeding pair to live, and theoretically you'd think that the Disembodied Frontloading Entity could have gone a step further and frontloaded them to be a bit less demanding when the massive destruction of that habitat occurred, but the DFE knew that Americans would need that land for growing soybeans, in much the same way that He someone knew that we would need petroleum reserves for an industrial civilization. So read your Matthew 10:31. The woodpeckers had to go. Homo.   -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

C.J.O'Brien Posts: 395 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,12:40    Gawd, pantsloading is stupid, and never moreso than when a moron like Dave gives you a big ol' whiff of a sincere attempt to make it sound sciency. Everything we know about genetics argues against it, so, naturally, says Dave, we need to know more about genomes, because we haven't found the evidence for his pet conjecture yet. With billions of generations of mushrooms in the basement, maybe the ol' Tard could lend a hand on that. -------------- The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand. --Joe G

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,12:40    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 21 2007,11:25) Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Dec. 21 2007,11:18) What does it tell us about an intelligent designer who's front-loads fail 90% of the time? Most all of his front-loads seem to become extinct.  Is this the celestial equivalent of someone cruelly pulling the wings off of flies to satisfy some morbid curiosity?  Or maybe the intelligent designer is simply incompetent.  If that's true should his license to front-load be revoked? I do wish the IDC tards would shed more light on the nature of the intelligent designer. Actually, I think these extinctions are also part of God's someone's pantfrontloading as well. Their extinctions were frontloaded to get them out of the way for mankind's needs. For instance, the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker was frontloaded to need a huge amount of old growth riverbottom forest per breeding pair to live, and theoretically you'd think that the Disembodied Frontloading Entity could have gone a step further and frontloaded them to be a bit less demanding when the massive destruction of that habitat occurred, but the DFE knew that Americans would need that land for growing soybeans, in much the same way that He someone knew that we would need petroleum reserves for an industrial civilization. So read your Matthew 10:31. The woodpeckers had to go. Homo.  :angry: And don't forget that Dave's already taught us about how all those ferns, and carboniferous forests were pants-loaded so that we could use them as fossil fuel. If only my Gas Cards were panstloaded with @ $5,000 more credit.  Per year. Dave  and/or Gil - Is this covered in Dembski's new book? -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

olegt Posts: 1405 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,15:39    Last line of defense from DaveScot: Quote The laughable part is that the whale’s ancient ancestor is still in dispute. Prehistoric evolution is nothing but guesswork and the guesses change as often as women’s fashion. What’s wrong with the paper is that it’s useless. What practical difference does it make what creatures whales descended from? Earth to Dave: ever heard of the difference between basic and applied research?  General relativity was useless at the beginning of 20th century.  Nowadays GPS employs Einstein's equations.   Got it?  Write that down. -------------- If you are not: Galapagos Finch please Logout »

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,15:53    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Dec. 21 2007,09:44)     Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Dec. 21 2007,10:39)       Quote (Davetard @ The Deepest Abyss of Tard) The genetic code of modern whales existed in a repressed form in the cell line leading to whales. An environmental trigger in the distant past caused a chromosome reorganization to occur which in turn led to a saltation. This is in complete accord with the indisputable testimony of the fossil record which of course is a record of abrupt emergence of radically new phenotypes followed by long periods of stability... OK, so one day the genetic code of one species reorganized itself and poof, a new species.  Hmmm.  So mom and dad were, hippos or, say, deer, but baby pops out and it's....a whale?  I hope mom was standing near the shoreline. How is a "saltation" event different from a cat giving birth to a dog, or any of the other absurd examples IDiots like to say evolution requires?  It looks like D'Tard thinks we might still get our "dat."  Won't the UD faithful be surprised when they realize ID predicted that!  Big tent indeed. Maybe DS is thinking they pupate. In goes hippo, out comes whale.... Makes as much sense as any other ID proposal I've ever seen. So how does that square with their old canard, "Have you ever seen a dog turn into a cat/a monkey give birth to a man/mud-to man, etc.?"? I mean, what they say is messed up, but they get into a weird area in their heads in which they actually advocate the same straw man that, in the next breath, they are knocking down! "It's not 'mud-to-man,' it's... mud to man!" Okay-doke. For all this helps their argument (proclaiming as "intelligent design" the same misconceptions about evolution that they used to portray as impossible) they may as well just give in and acknowledge theistic evolution already. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Advocatus Diaboli Posts: 198 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,15:53    Here's a chance to win 100 $, from Dembski himself: "I like it, but frankly I think we can do better. I’m therefore offering a $100 prize to anyone who can come up with a better sticker (receipt of payment for the prize cedes copyright to me). The sticker needs to be posted online as a jpeg with a link in the comments to this thread. For now, the sticker should only publicize EXPELLED (explicit connection with DoL as a companion volume can be done later). The contest extends through February 12th, 2008 — Darwin’s birthday and the official release date of EXPELLED." -------------- I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong. "I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot "Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova "UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:06    Mikey TuTu: http://www.uncommondescent.com/biology....-157805 Quote 23 Michael Tuite 12/21/2007 3:39 pm Hello Dave, Thanks for the brief explication of a very interesting hypothesis. At a saltation event, does a new species emerge de novo from an egg/womb/seed? If so, this must occur nearly simultaneously for many members of a parent species in order that the new species has potential mates. As you describe, an external environmental trigger could provide the necessary coordination. How large a morphological gap to you suppose a saltation can span? New tissues, new organs? Is it likely that if we observe closely enough we might see a new species emerge from an existing one? Could we artificially trigger a saltation? Any thoughts as to what types of environmental change might trigger saltations and how those changes are communicated to the genome? Finally, is the unfolding of the frontloaded genome dependent upon a specific earth history or do you imagine that it was designed with sufficient flexibility to adapt to the exigencies of four billion years of complex interactions between the lithosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere, and biosphere? Thanks, Michael PONW, as we've already had this weeks POTW. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Bebbo Posts: 161 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:15    Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 21 2007,00:35) I think DaveScot is getting himself warmed up again: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-157416 Quote 32 DaveScot 12/20/2007 4:17 am Mike Gene is a shrinking violet. He carefully hides his identity so his notions about ID can’t be used to blemish his reputation (whatever that reputation might be). While I admire his thinking on the subject to some extent I don’t have any respect for the man (or possibly woman) himself. His rejection of ID as science is par for the course - my guess is he’s covering his ass in case his boss or peers find out what he’s been doing in his secret life. No doubt he appeals to many Western Europeans. Western Europe has lost its backbone and has become a continent full of shrinking violets. I’m guessing the United States will have to rescue it yet again in the not too distant future when the Muslim horde successfully takes it over. It's like he's covalescing from a long illness.  It's not the Dave of old, but it's a good sign, so we should all smile and say encouraging things to him - he'll be back to his old self in no time etc. etc. Bob Yeah, Europe is full of weak willed pansies while in America, land of the fearless, Dembski never has to withold the identity of ID favouring scientists because of the Darwinian hordes.

CCP Posts: 25 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:16    So final grades are due tomorrow and I'm still up at 3am last night grading about a berzillion freakin lab reports, reading the same...freakin...methods section...yet...a-freakin...-gain... and suddenly my eye is caught. What the...?! One of my freshwomen cites one "Dembski"...I flip to the Literature Cited (formatted all wrong, of course), and it's an article on "acetylcholine" from the ISCID Encyclopedia of Science and Philosophy! (Who knew?) The same Dembski! What's weird is if you go to the "encyclopedia" page, Billy's name appears noplace. I'd almost think she was messin with my head on purpose...but frankly she's just not that smart. All I can figure is, with no author name, she clicked on "About ISCID" and Willy's name is the first on the list of the Executive Board. Of course she just pointed the Google at "acetylcholine" and, yep, right on the first page, just under 'kipedia (which they were expressly forbidden to cite) and a site at the U of Toledo...there it is! The ISCID Encyclopedia of True Science and Non-materialist Philosophy. The "Wiki Strategy"? Do these cdesign proponentists never stop with the evil plots to take over the world?

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:34    Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Dec. 21 2007,15:53) Here's a chance to win 100 $, from Dembski himself: "I like it, but frankly I think we can do better. I’m therefore offering a $100 prize to anyone who can come up with a better sticker (receipt of payment for the prize cedes copyright to me). The sticker needs to be posted online as a jpeg with a link in the comments to this thread. For now, the sticker should only publicize EXPELLED (explicit connection with DoL as a companion volume can be done later). The contest extends through February 12th, 2008 — Darwin’s birthday and the official release date of EXPELLED." The comments suggest no one is paying attention to dimpski's offer.  they're all making jokes. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:38    Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Dec. 21 2007,13:53) Here's a chance to win 100 $, from Dembski himself: "I like it, but frankly I think we can do better. I’m therefore offering a $100 prize to anyone who can come up with a better sticker (receipt of payment for the prize cedes copyright to me). The sticker needs to be posted online as a jpeg with a link in the comments to this thread. For now, the sticker should only publicize EXPELLED (explicit connection with DoL as a companion volume can be done later). The contest extends through February 12th, 2008 — Darwin’s birthday and the official release date of EXPELLED." How about "The contents of this book resemble the substance EXPELLED from your throat after a night on the beer"? I've got half a mind to enter.  I'd like to see who comes second. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:52    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Dec. 21 2007,16:34) Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Dec. 21 2007,15:53) Here's a chance to win 100 $, from Dembski himself: "I like it, but frankly I think we can do better. I’m therefore offering a $100 prize to anyone who can come up with a better sticker (receipt of payment for the prize cedes copyright to me). The sticker needs to be posted online as a jpeg with a link in the comments to this thread. For now, the sticker should only publicize EXPELLED (explicit connection with DoL as a companion volume can be done later). The contest extends through February 12th, 2008 — Darwin’s birthday and the official release date of EXPELLED." The comments suggest no one is paying attention to dimpski's offer.  they're all making jokes. That's because we they are all sock puppets. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,16:53    My most special front loading moment, courtesy Daniel Smith over the the evolution of the horsey thread: R-Bill:   Quote At least you're honest about what you are really about, which is more than I can say about most other proponents of views like this: "An omniscient supernatural being (an all knowing God) with foreknowledge of every environmental shift in every inhabited environment on earth over 3.8 billion years (shifts that resulted from everything from chaotic fluctuations in the sun's output to the Yucatan asteroid) front-loaded into the first prokaryotic life appropriate preplanned sequences of evolutionary transitions (adaptations, speciations, extinction events) for every one of the countless lineages of organisms that would descend from those first organisms over those ensuing billions of years." Daniel's objection:     Quote You make it sound so far fetched... -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,18:20    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 21 2007,12:13) Wah-wah GilTard: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-157682 Quote 14 GilDodgen 12/21/2007 2:25 am I’ve submitted the following to Amazon’s customer discussions team. A huge spam Amazon “book review” campaign has been organized in the last 24 hours in an attempt to discredit the book, “The Design of Life.” It is clear that almost none of these people have read the book. Furthermore, they have violated Amazon’s published posting policies. Amazon needs to implement a policy of requiring all reviewers to use their real names and provide proof of having personally purchased the book, otherwise, Amazon book reviews will lose all credibility in the future. Bwahaha. I can almost hear that sad piano. You should have to send in a picture of you with the book and answer a short quiz, to post your review. :p I would say that we should go over there and clue Gil in about A reader from Waco, Tx, but it would just get deleted.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,18:34    Quote (olegt @ Dec. 21 2007,16:39) Last line of defense from DaveScot:   Quote The laughable part is that the whale’s ancient ancestor is still in dispute. Prehistoric evolution is nothing but guesswork and the guesses change as often as women’s fashion. What’s wrong with the paper is that it’s useless. What practical difference does it make what creatures whales descended from? Earth to Dave: ever heard of the difference between basic and applied research?  General relativity was useless at the beginning of 20th century.  Nowadays GPS employs Einstein's equations.   Got it?  Write that down. Davetard is so clueless that he once said we should only do science that's going to turn out to have important applications.

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,18:39    Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 21 2007,18:34) Quote (olegt @ Dec. 21 2007,16:39) Last line of defense from DaveScot:     Quote The laughable part is that the whale’s ancient ancestor is still in dispute. Prehistoric evolution is nothing but guesswork and the guesses change as often as women’s fashion. What’s wrong with the paper is that it’s useless. What practical difference does it make what creatures whales descended from? Earth to Dave: ever heard of the difference between basic and applied research?  General relativity was useless at the beginning of 20th century.  Nowadays GPS employs Einstein's equations.   Got it?  Write that down. Davetard is so clueless that he once said we should only do science that's going to turn out to have important applications. We need some version of Godwin's law that prohibits people, and especially me, from making comparisons to Soviet communism. However, as this does not yet exist, I'd like to say that I'm reminded of the Soviet (and Marxist in general) groups that thought science was an evil instrument of bourgeois reactionary oppression, but "technology", which did useful things in service of the Revolution, was good. Ideology before knowledge, doncha know! -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

N.Wells Posts: 1836 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,18:46    Quote (JohnW @ Dec. 21 2007,16:38) I've got half a mind to enter. Sorry, that makes you overqualified.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,19:04    Quote Michael Tuite 12/20/2007 1:42 pm Hello Everyone, Can someone here offer an ID-based hypothesis for the origin of cetaceans with at least as much explanatory power as the comparative anatomical approach described in the article? Have a great holiday, Michael http://www.uncommondescent.com/biology....-157805

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,19:25    Hrun0815 is not a true tard, but his time at UD may soon be over   Quote But isn’t the point of the paper that researchers actually found transitional elements in land-living animals. So it seems they are looking in the right place. Who knows, maybe they found one of those animals that just ‘turned on’ their internal conversion program given to them by front-loading. I still don’t really understand the scorn heaped on this paper. It seems like nobody has any specific points to criticize, other than the fact that DaveScot thinks that this line of research has no practical use. On the other hand, Patrick is an uber-tard, thus ensuring that his time at UD will be eternal. Quote I’m not automatically denying the the typical story for the whale–I consider it an open question, not irrefutable dogma like those who came up with this story–but your statement presumes what is yet to be proven. Convergent evolution as an explanation is lobbed around all the time for other features. Why couldn’t this be the case here? Also, convergent evolution would be much more likely to occur with front-loading. So, even assuming this story is true, I’d say that would just strengthen ID as the best explanation. Does he understand that all phylogenies (including those for whales) are hypotheses, not dogma? Do you think that he read the original paper? I'm betting NO and NO.   But give him some credit, he did come up with an original hypothesis - Convergent evolution would be much more likely to occur with front-loading. Of course, I'm not sure how you test that. In order to figure out "more likely" you would need multiple iterations of any particular pair of evolutionary histories. And is front-loading part of the dogma of ID, or just a glimmer in DT's and JAD's gimlet eyes? Does Dembski mention it anywhere? -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,19:37    Another question is, why, if Davey and company were talking about how all prehistoric biology is a stupid waste of time a day (or two?) ago, they feel the need to rant about saltation events and ancient phylogenic trees today. Like a degaussed compass needle... -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,19:52    Compare DaveScot two days ago:   Quote The salient question is what CAN’T you do in practical biology without resort to mechanistic theories of prehistoric evolution. The answer appears to be there is nothing you can’t do. ... One has no need at all to subscribe to any theory that supposes the same organisms had substantially different ancestors millions of years ago. There is no practical application for the theory that chance and necessity turned mud to man over billions of years. Whether true or not the supposed RM+NS mechanism over deep time works too slowly to have any practical consequence measured over the course of hundreds of years except at the fringes where one or several random nucleotide changes effect medically important consequences without otherwise notable phenotype change. And BarryA:   Quote Corey, I disagree. Neither Bioinformatics nor Molecular biology must resort to prehistoric evolution at all, much less theories about the mechanisms of prehistoric evolution. Phylogenetics is the study of evolutionary relatedness, and by definition resorts to mechanistic theories of prehistoric evolution. But it is not “practical biology” to which DaveScott was referring. with DaveScot today:   Quote Sure. The genetic code of modern whales existed in a repressed form in the cell line leading to whales. An environmental trigger in the distant past caused a chromosome reorganization to occur which in turn led to a saltation. This is in complete accord with the indisputable testimony of the fossil record which of course is a record of abrupt emergence of radically new phenotypes followed by long periods of stability in the new phenotype and in the vast majority of cases extinction of the new phenotype after an average of 10 million years with all but a small fraction of these leaving no successor species. ... This is the front-loaded ID hypothesis. Phylogenesis mirrors ontogenesis in that both are a series of derepressions of existing genomic information. Both occur according to a set plan where chance plays little if any role and the environment supplies cues (triggers) for proceeding (or not) from one phase of the plan to the next. Both are self-terminating when the preprogrammed path of diversification has completed. Nothing in the fossil record makes sense except in the light of front-loading. Studying prehistoric evolution is stupid ... except when I do it! When I do it it's super-smart and important! We must seek new and better ways to explain the fossil record, such as unverifiable front-loading! Just not mechanistic theories, and theories that aren't mine. Those ones are completely pointless! Only morons care about that! -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2007,19:54    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 21 2007,20:25) On the other hand, Patrick is an uber-tard, thus ensuring that his time at UD will be eternal. yes he is. More from Patrick: Quote Really, the only major fact is this line of thinking started with the bearded buddha. If Darwin had not come up with his bear story I doubt today’s scientists would be attempting to cobble together such a disjointed explanation. The starting premises became cemented, even though these beginnings had no positive evidence. No positive evidence? Dear Patrick: when you sit on the computer and just make up stuff about science, you look like a moron. We know whales evolved from land mammals because a mountain of evidence says so. Quote The evidence that whales descended from terrestrial mammals is here divided into nine independent parts: paleontological, morphological, molecular biological, vestigial, embryological, geochemical, paleoenvironmental, paleobiogeographical, and chronological. Although my summary of the evidence is not exhaustive, it shows that the current view of whale evolution is supported by scientific research in several distinct disciplines.

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