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  Topic: AF Dave's UPDATED Creator God Hypothesis, Creation/Evolution Debate< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,09:40   

Quote (afdave @ June 15 2006,12:04)
Shouldn't heavy fish like big whales sink?  What in the world are you talking about?

I was being ridiculous Dave. Just like you are being, so far.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,09:44   

Quote (clamboy @ June 15 2006,14:35)
I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Article 11 from the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams with no fuss:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

I also find it amusing that fundamentalist Protestants railed against the Constitution for its lack of mention of (their) God for centuries, until they all of a sudden changed their tune in the 1950s-1960s to claim that the Constition is based on Christian practice and principles.

Oh, and this is relevant because of Dave's umpteenth claim that the U.S. is a Christian nation, founded on Christianity. Dave would be right at home with some (notice I said "some") of the academics I encounter in my work - they hate the Enlightenment, too!!!

Don't you understand Clamboy? By stating that The United States Was Founded As A Christian Nation, AFD has therefore proven this point. Simply by SAYING it! In other words, he's already won!

Any and all counterevidence you give him will simply prove that you have not Accepted Jesus, and therefore anything you say is invalidated. He wins again!

BTW, speaking of things that Creationists have to ignore, here's a cool article:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/06/060615-dinosaurs.html

(Tho considering that the Earth is only a few thousand years old (because the OT says so) and Evolution is a secular lie, the whole article is of course invalidated.)

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,09:52   

Quote
If we gave you, the monkeys and the apes an IQ test in Esperanto I think you'd all come out the same. Would that be fair?


actually, in that specific case, I think the results would be the same regardless of the language used...

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
incorygible



Posts: 374
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,09:57   

Quote (afdave @ June 15 2006,14:08)
Incorygible...  
Quote
So what do I think WHAT test will show, Davey?  You don't have a test.
I do.  It's called the SAT Test.  You go find the gorilla and the chimp.  I'll provide the human, the SAT test and the testing room. We'll give them each the same amount of time.

Guess what the result will be!!

(Hint: the gorilla and chimp results will be similar and will differ greatly from the human!;)

(I really am having fun with this topic ... can we keep it going a long time?  Eric?)

Sounds fun!  Let's apply for a grant! I'm happy to write it up for you (I'm good at it by now), and submit it to the appropriate agencies -- just help me fill in the blanks, m'kay?

First, we'd better come up with a good, bullet-proof reason for why we expect this test to demonstrate common ancestry of the gorilla and the chimp, but not the human. You know, something that will really, really make it seem a more reliable method for measuring ancestry and evolution (since the Fall, of course, Davey) than that whole DNA thang (and physical anthropology and comparative morphology and microbiology and...).  After all, those agencies have pumped an awful lot of money and credibility into genomic research (and the others), and they don't like having egg on their face.

Next, we'll have to demonstrate there is no subjective bias that may enter into our test.  Since inherent biases against different races and classes of HUMAN have been demonstrated for standardized testing, including the SATs, we better come up with a way to convince 'em there is no introduced anti-"ape" bias.

Third, we'll have to do something about those competing labs that will want to shoot down our results by measuring something they foolishly think is more relevant to ancestry and evolution than one's answer to "Two trains leave Chicago at a speed of..."  I suspect the appropriately named Dr. Wildman over at Wayne State may try to scoop us by repeating the test with some fancy electrodes and cellular assays, then claiming that, despite our airtight scoring system, the patterns of gene expression and electrical activity while taking our test were much more similar in the human and chimp brains than in the gorilla brain.  We wouldn't want that.

Fourth, we might want to rule out some additional confounding variables.  Developmental and environmental effects come to mind.  So, let's eliminate any regional bias by using an African human (Africa's all one environment, right?).  And let's standardize by using two-year-olds.  And let's control for any differences in parental care or social learning -- if we put the newborns in cages right now, they'll be ready for those SATs by the time the funds come in.

So you get to work on shoring those up, and I'll start drafting the application.  Whodathunk overturning so many years of research in so many scientific disciplines demonstrating common ancestry of the great apes (including us -- the very thought!;) could be overturned by more careful observation and comparison of the collegial activities (both curricular and extracurricular!;) of humans, chimps and gorillas.  We're gonna be famous, Dave!

Oh, can we include the orangutans in there, too?  If I did have to go to the zoo instead of the sorority house to meet women, that luxurious copper hair and laid-back demeanour would definitely win me over.  Especially when compared to the violence of the chimps and the rather scary stature of the silverback guarding his harem.  Of course, that's only because my zoo doesn't have bonobos...those girls (and boys!;) are FREAKS, Dave.  I mean it.  Hey, can we have a bonobo?

  
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,10:00   

Quote (afdave @ June 15 2006,14:33)
Quote
Can a person be a Christian and accept that the world is 4.5 billion years old?
Of course.  They would merely be a Christian who is misinformed about the age of the earth.

"No True Scotsman"

Oldest fallacy in the book.

:p

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,10:29   

Doesn't look like the No True Scotsman fallacy to me, Rilke.

   
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,10:44   

It looks like the "if I don't want to believe it, it can't possibly be true" fallacy to me.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,10:45   

Quote (stevestory @ June 15 2006,15:29)
Doesn't look like the No True Scotsman fallacy to me, Rilke.

Sure it does.  "If you are a True Christian, then you know that the world is 6,000 years old."  It is not possible to be a True Christian and know that the world is 4.5 billion years old.

Dave is just playing the card in reverse; he's still claiming that there is a single, true, unarguable set of Christian beliefs (his), and that anyone who believes differently isn't a Christian.  He's just being "polite" and offering them the option of claiming to be mistaken.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,11:20   

Quote (Rilke's Granddaughter @ June 15 2006,15:45)
Quote (stevestory @ June 15 2006,15:29)
Doesn't look like the No True Scotsman fallacy to me, Rilke.

Sure it does.  "If you are a True Christian, then you know that the world is 6,000 years old."  It is not possible to be a True Christian and know that the world is 4.5 billion years old.

Dave is just playing the card in reverse; he's still claiming that there is a single, true, unarguable set of Christian beliefs (his), and that anyone who believes differently isn't a Christian.  He's just being "polite" and offering them the option of claiming to be mistaken.

I thought he said they were "Blinded by what they want to believe."  Still no answer on why he thinks these people are so eager to disprove a literal, inerrant bible.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,11:27   

I just wish one of these days he'd give us a sample of the "massive evidence for a global flood" he says he has. So far he's given us exactly no evidence to support any of his contentions, but how long can his streak continue?

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,11:30   

Quote (ericmurphy @ June 15 2006,16:27)
I just wish one of these days he'd give us a sample of the "massive evidence for a global flood" he says he has. So far he's given us exactly no evidence to support any of his contentions, but how long can his streak continue?

I fear he can go on exactly like this til he keels over from old age...

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,11:30   

Quote
OA...it won't work.  I'll discuss your topic when I get ready to.


When's that gonna be AFDave, the second tuesday of next week?

Or in the decade from now when you finally quit reposting your RATE views on Helium that have been beaten into a fine pink spray?

BTW it's your topic Dave, the one you brought up in claiming that there's no evidence for humans older than 6000 YBP.  The one you seem unwilling and/or unable to deal with once your claims were scrutinized.

If you can't back up those dating claims you made, that's OK. After this long no one really expects anything like factual data or supporting evidence out of you.  It's just a pity for you that all those potential YEC converts are gonna have to accept the ToE and old Earth by default since that's all they've seen.  AFDave couldn't present any evidence he promised while the evolution supporters produced evidence for their position in droves.

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,11:35   

Y'know, I said back there that fundamentalist Protestants had railed against the Consitution "for centuries." That was stupid. I should have said, "since its inception."

Mea maxima culpa.

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,11:52   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ June 15 2006,16:30)
After this long no one really expects anything like factual data or supporting evidence out of you.

Here's an idea of what to expect from P Z Myers:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/06/creationist_amorality.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....ert.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....you.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....m_t.php

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,12:01   

Quote (afdave @ June 15 2006,11:27)

HUMPHREYS COMPARES THE HARDNESS OF VARIOUS MINERALS ONLY TO SHOW THAT PRESSURE HAS LITTLE EFFECT ON DIFFUSIVITIES OF OTHER HARD MATERIALS.

Yet he never establishes a connection between hardness and diffusivity.  Why is that? Because, as has been pointed out many times, hardness does not correlaate with diffusivity.  Humphreys is presenting a red herring.
Quote
But the real beauty of the experiment is that is soundly refutes the supposed 1.5 GY scenario.

The real beauty (if there is any) of the experiment is that, if (and that's a big if) it can be replicated in other studies and on other zircons, RATE may have come up with an interesting anomaly.  It's far from refuting anything.  "We don't know yet" is, albeit unsatisfying, is a scientific explanation that's way up on the list of explanations compared to your and Humphreys' "it's magic".

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,12:08   

Dave, if you have no way of knowing from He studies alone how old Humphreys' zircons are, and you don't, then how can those zircons possibly refute anything about the age of those zircons, let alone the age of the earth itself?

How many times do we have to repeat the same thing over and over? I'm going to guess and say we could repeat it infinitely many times, and you still wouldn't get it.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,12:45   

Quote (ericmurphy @ June 15 2006,17:08)
Dave, if you have no way of knowing from He studies alone how old Humphreys' zircons are, and you don't, then how can those zircons possibly refute anything about the age of those zircons, let alone the age of the earth itself?

Well, to be fair, as far as we know if we knew all the relevant properties as functions of the relevant variables and if we knew the values of those variables during the "lifetime" of the zircons then we could calculate the age of the zircons from helium diffusion alone.  However, it's essentially certain that the aamount of helium left today is not a single-valued function of age; there are many different ages which (when combined with other environmental scenarios) would result in the same amount of helium present today.  So we do need more information than measurements of helium amounts, but I think everyone acknowledges that.

The argument is over whether or not Humphreys' assertions and arm-waving are sufficient evidence for knowing all the relevant values and discarding hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of independently obtained and cross-correlated and consistent evidence.  I don't think so.
Quote
How many times do we have to repeat the same thing over and over? I'm going to guess and say we could repeat it infinitely many times, and you still wouldn't get it.

Yup, I agree.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,13:38   

Quote (JonF @ June 15 2006,17:45)
Well, to be fair, as far as we know if we knew all the relevant properties as functions of the relevant variables and if we knew the values of those variables during the "lifetime" of the zircons then we could calculate the age of the zircons from helium diffusion alone.  However, it's essentially certain that the aamount of helium left today is not a single-valued function of age; there are many different ages which (when combined with other environmental scenarios) would result in the same amount of helium present today.  So we do need more information than measurements of helium amounts, but I think everyone acknowledges that.

Except for Dave. He doesn't acknowledge that at all. Dave seems to believe that Humphreys is not only justified in assuming that He diffusion has been constant during the last 6,000 years, but that he actually knows what that rate has been for the last 6,000 years. Since Humphreys knows neither one of those things, he simply cannot make any estimates of the age of his zircons, and therefore cannot make any claims as to the age of the earth.
 
Quote
The argument is over whether or not Humphreys' assertions and arm-waving are sufficient evidence for knowing all the relevant values and discarding hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of independently obtained and cross-correlated and consistent evidence.  I don't think so.

And so far it's been pretty much established that Humphreys has not eliminated every possible source of error in his calculations, because he simply doesn't have enough data on the thermal history of the rocks, nor on the possible contamination from other sources of helium in the vicinity. This is why, Dave, Humphreys' results simply don't pass the smell test.

Add in that his results are completely contradicted by every other result out there, and it's no wonder he hasn't made much of a splash in the field of radiometric dating.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
thurdl01



Posts: 99
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,15:38   

Quote (ericmurphy @ June 15 2006,17:27)
I just wish one of these days he'd give us a sample of the "massive evidence for a global flood" he says he has. So far he's given us exactly no evidence to support any of his contentions, but how long can his streak continue?

Of course the obvious question is whether you actually have to hear it.  I'm sure it'll begin with the favorite chestnut of many different cultures having a flood story in their mythology, and end with seashells on top of mountains.

No, wait, it'll end with him declaring that he's won.

God help me, I've finally reached the point where I've followed enough of these threads where I could probably argue YEC better than some of the people who believe it.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,16:06   

Dave, you say your method is better. People have provided you with a dozen possible ways helium diffusion rate may have changed. Now, instead of trying on and on to refute those, can you come up with just one method in which radioactive decay rates may have changed?

Use science, please.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,16:46   

Quote
God help me, I've finally reached the point where I've followed enough of these threads where I could probably argue YEC better than some of the people who believe it.


Congratulations!  I think that's the watermark that indicates you now have an advanced degree in anti-evolution argumentation.

now if there was only some way to make money with that...

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Michael Tuite



Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,17:52   

As a stable isotope guy, I don't consider myself qualified to comment on the details of Dr. Humphrey's findings. I will, however, relate what I learned directly from the horse's mouth. I attended Dr. Humphrey's polished and meticulously crafted presentation at last year's Creationism Megaconference in Lynchburg, Virginia. In brief, Dr. Humphrey's argument was this: While the Ur-Pb dating of a granite core sample indicated an age for the rock of 1.5 billion years, analysis of the He diffused from zircons into the surrounding biotite indicated a much younger age for the rock - mere thousands of years. This in itself was presented as confirming evidence of the young earth model despite the contradictory Ur-Pb date. In a bold leap, Dr. Humphrey's then recalculated the rate of decay of the radioactive Ur to conform with the so recently reconfirmed 6000 year age of the earth and proposed that god had increased the rate of radioactive decay during the creation week and during the Flood (~1600 years later), asserting that the water would have absorbed the excess radiation.

Additionally, consistent with a pattern that seems all too familiar, Dr. Humphrey's conceded that he had deliberately misrepresented his research affiliation to the testing lab in order to avoid anti-creationist bias in the outcome.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2006,20:49   

Quote
anti-creationist bias in the outcome.


you mean the creationist bias in the input?

where in the 9 he11s did he get the idea that water would significantly modify radioactive decay rates in retained isotopes?

Oh, that's right, just like Dave, he makes it up as he goes along.

phht.

ya know, we had a great opportunity to do this country a service during that Creation Mega-claptrap.

I guess we decided to become church-burning ebola-boys just a little too late.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,01:05   

A bit OT, but it was mentioned a while ago I believe...
I did a search about Michael Denton, and I found a bunch of sources claiming that in his second book, "Nature's Destiny", he basically accepts evolution and common descent as an indisputable fact, and simply disputes the ability of RM+NS as a mechanism for it. Much like Behe and the others.
So, is that accurate? Does anyone know? Cause it looks like another "hmm" moment for dave...

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,01:23   

I believe Faid is correct.  I have both books, but I just skimmed the evolution parts because, of course, evolution seems like a fairy tale to me.

I think Denton's feeling is that, yes, evolution is a theory in crisis, he cannot come up with an alternative theory to his liking--YECism would be far too big a leap for him--so he basically buys into common descent by default, not because there is such positive evidence confirming it.

He is a tormented man.

On p. 233 of ND, he says  
Quote
"The emerging picture [of the cell] is obviously consistent with the teleological view of nature ... there is simply no way that such prefabrication could be the result of natural selection."

and yet he still talks about evolution on p. 240,  
Quote

"Sociality in general was probably an essential element in man's biological and intellectual evolution."

But his conclusion is ...
Quote
"All the evidence available in the biological sciences supports the core proposition of traditional natural theology--that the cosmos is a specially designed whole with life and mankind as its fundamental goal and purpose, a whole in which all facets of reality, from the size of galaxies to the thermal capacity of water, have their meaning and explanation in this central fact ... As I hope the evidence presented in this book has shown, science, which has been for centuries the great ally of atheism and skepticism, has become at last, in these final days of the second millenium, what Newton and many of its early advocates had so fervently wished--the 'defender of the anthropocentric faith.' "

I have a simple solution to his dilemma:  become a YEC.

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,02:22   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 16 2006,01:49)
Ehere in the 9 he11s did he get the idea that water would significantly modify radioactive decay rates in retained isotopes?

Humphreys didn't claim that water had any effect on decay rates.  He explicitly claimed it's magic.  I posted the relevant quotes a few pages ago in this thread, but I don't have time right now to dig them up again or figure out which page they're on.

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,02:46   

Quote (afdave @ June 16 2006,06:23)
I have a simple solution to his dilemma:  become a YEC.

Or, for the same calming effect with less impact on the intellect, get a lobotomy.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,02:47   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 15 2006,21:46)
now if there was only some way to make money with that...

Are you kiding?  Ken Ham makes over $100K a year.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,02:53   

Quote
YECism would be far too big a leap for him--so he basically buys into common descent by default
It seems to me he buys in to common descent because of the evidence. He could easily be an old earth creationist if he accepts a long earth.

I can't remeber if I have asked you this before, but do you think it's feasable that one single species of ape/monkeys evolved into all the species in the world in a few thousand years?

  
George



Posts: 316
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2006,03:30   

Quote

Quote

Can a person be a Christian and accept that the world is 4.5 billion years old?

Of course.  They would merely be a Christian who is misinformed about the age of the earth.


No, that would be an honest, well-informed Christian.

I've a follow-up question.  Can a person be a Christian and accept the theory of evolution?  In other words, can a person be like me?- I'm one of the 6 Christians in the poll.

Personally, I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that a YEC cannot be a real Christian, but can only be some sort of book-worshipping cultist.  The meat of God's message doesn't really matter to you does it?  Only the words actually written in your favourite translation (KJ?) of the Bible.  That's why, when confronted with scientific facts that conflict with the book, you and your fellow YECs can only respond with the most unChristian dishonesty:  hand-waving, ignoring opposing arguments, appeal to authorities you know are dubious, attempts to squirm through loopholes and even outright lies.

Even better, YECs are even hypocrites when it comes to Biblical literalism.  Or do you really get your medical advice from the Book of Leviticus, Dave?

Dave, people like you (and GWB, but that's another story) almost make me ashamed to call myself a Christian.

(Sorry about the outburst y'all, but I think Dave wears on everyone's patience.)

  
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