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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > AFDave Wants You to Prove Evolution to Him

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Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,07:24    Quote But who does he think he's educating by posting here?  On PT and ATBC, the posters and the lurkers are aware that Dave's an ignorant idiot.  Does he somehow assume that the great unwashed masses start every day by looking at ATBC?  Does he somehow think that thousands of educable members of the public are listening to him soapbox? I think that's where the whole "grossly overinflated ego" thing comes in. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Drew Headley Posts: 152 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,07:25    I figure that the nylon degrading bacteria will flare up here, so I am preemptively posting the paper showing its sequence. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrend....ype=pdf

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,07:29    Nah. Don't ban him. I don't think it's against the rules to be impervious to facts and logic. And, in a way, I agree with him that this whole exercise is to help him educate the public. For instance, after I asked him countless times to provide the creationist answer to this explanation of the Vitamin C gene defect data:       Quote The "Darwinist" position is that [genetic] errors creep in if they're not pruned by selection, and are inherited down through the family tree, leaving an imprinted geneology. after dodging the question so many times it became embarrassing, even to afd, he cut'n'pasted this:       Quote It may be that the nested hierarchy of living things simply is a reflection of divine orderliness.  It also may be, as Walter ReMine suggests, that nested hierarchy is an integral part of a message woven by the Creator into the patterns of biology.  (See, e.g., ReMine, 367-368, 465-467.)  The point is that the hierarchical nature of life can be accommodated by creation theory as readily as by evolution.  Accordingly, “[i]t is not evidence for or against either theory.” (Brand, 155.) It's stunning enough that he thinks that's an explanation at all. He even goes on to say it's a better explanation than the evolutionary one! Now if that doesn't educate the public as to the quality of creationist thought, I don't know what will. -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

improvius Posts: 807 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,07:34    Quote You guys slip and slide and conform your theory to findings in such a ridiculous manner it is hilarious. Yeah, I guess modifying a theory to conform to actual data is a bizarre concept - to creationists. -------------- Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37) Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late. Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,07:41    Quote (improvius @ May 24 2006,12:34) Quote You guys slip and slide and conform your theory to findings in such a ridiculous manner it is hilarious. Good lord, there are so many little gems squirrelled away in AFD's posts! It's almost enough to make one read them closer. Almost. "Our interpretation of life on earth is based on the Book of Genesis, and by refusing to alter or expand our understanding of it for centuries, we're every bit as ignorant and mistaken as we were thousands of years ago! You scientists on the other hand, now think different things than you did 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, which just shows how bankrupt your philosophy is!" -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:09    Quote Faid, I actually thought that you guys might have something with the bacteria thing, but since I have read this article by Dr. Anderson, I cannot think of a single thing left where you could possibly say that an organism gains a new function.  I bet if I really scrutinized Norm's nylon-eating bacteria, I would also find LOSS of function, not gain, whaddya want to bet?  Don't worry, I'm not going to research it personally ... I'll leave it to CRS. And this responds to my post... How, exactly? Oh yes, the way you always do: "LA LA LA CANT HEAR YOU LA LA LA"... Doesn't matter. I gotta go and plug some holes in our sinking ship: But, before I go, and since we've got this little thing going on, guess what I'll do first: Novel genes New information in genes Thaaaat's right, Dave... Read the links. -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:11    Quote There's the admission folks, in his own words.  Not a single word of this was about science.  There is nothing you can prove to him, nothing that will change his mind.   He's here ... because on the social and government scene it is critical to correctly define human beings as what they truthfully are:  Creations of the Creator God, made in the image of God, and placed in a position of dominion over all of nature. Admission?  Do you think I was trying to HIDE this? Not at all.  I've said this several times.  You must be a newcomer. Quote This is consistent for AFD, tho -- and for all other Creationists. Their whole agenda depends on convincing people that the more you know about a subject, the LESS qualified you are to speak about it. Thus the often-seen notion that biologists are the LAST people who should be talking about 'origins' -- much better to have mathematicians, engineers, pastors, or retired Air Force pilots. The less education they've had, the more 'objective' they are. No.  You'll notice that we have no agenda to attack the linguists (other than the silly little Portuguese fun we had), we don't attack the cancer researchers or doctors or geologists searching for oil, and many, many other good people.  We are just attacking the General Theory of Evolution for the reasons stated above.  Soon the lightbulb will come on for a majority of scientists regarding Intelligent Design and us 'amateur scientists' will go back to our churches and be quiet.  This kind of thing has happened over and over again through the centuries and it will happen here as well. Quote Even amongst his illogical ramblings, the idea that this is a forum to 'educate the public' is astonishingly stupid. Reading comprehension, Rilke.  Not the public HERE.  The public OUT THERE.  See, let me walk you through it again. (1) AF Dave needs to sharpen his arguments because he is actively involved in the education of children with regard to Origins.  See www.kids4truth.com.  He does not want to lead these children wrong, so he wants to test his arguments against some evolutionary biologists.  He has big plans for greatly expanded information to be available at k4t. (2) So he comes to PT and finds some willing participants at ATBC, some of whom, like Rilke, have absolutely no clue what his goals are, but they try to guess. (3) AFD has immense fun debating, achieves his goal of honing his arguments, the ATBCers are happy because they think they are honing their arguments, or watching a comedy, practicing their insults, or whatever. (4) No one gets bored contemplating their navels. (or someone else's) It's a win-win! -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:12    Quote Nah. Don't ban him. I don't think it's against the rules to be impervious to facts and logic. And, in a way, I agree with him that this whole exercise is to help him educate the public Another reason not to ban AFD is because we haven't banned GoP or Thordaddy, and in my opinion, arguing with AFD is a lot more entertaining than arguing with either of those guys. Let's face it, Thordaddy is just plain creepy. Plus, my estimation of AFD went up a hair when he acted shocked about the human/chimp DNA thing. A true as$hole would just deny it or ignore it. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:17    Quote Soon the lightbulb will come on for a majority of scientists regarding Intelligent Design and us 'amateur scientists' will go back to our churches and be quiet.  This kind of thing has happened over and over again through the centuries and it will happen here as well. When do you think this has happened before? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:24    Oh and Arden-- You do have to watch people with degrees just like you have to watch anyone.  I have an EE degree so I can say this.   I had a whole roomful of computer scientists tell me they knew how to build a better data system than mine when we sold our company.  I warned the president that they didn't know what they were talking about, but he went with them anyway.  $700,000 and a year and half later the 'experts' finished their system to replace my $70,000 system.  Almost immediately, the calls started coming in from customers asking for the old system back. My business partner quit in frustration. So you gotta watch scientists with degrees sometimes. -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:28    Quote (afdave @ May 24 2006,13:24) Oh and Arden-- You do have to watch people with degrees just like you have to watch anyone.  I have an EE degree so I can say this.   I had a whole roomful of computer scientists tell me they knew how to build a better data system than mine when we sold our company.  I warned the president that they didn't know what they were talking about, but he went with them anyway.  $700,000 and a year and half later the 'experts' finished their system to replace my $70,000 system.  Almost immediately, the calls started coming in from customers asking for the old system back. My business partner quit in frustration. So you gotta watch scientists with degrees sometimes. That's the best example you can come up with? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:34    But another thing you might want to do is a little basic reading in the area you're studying before you go mouthing off on stuff you don't understand. I still can't get over the "humans closer to chimps than chimps to gorillas." I mean, really, Dave. That you were unaware of that incredibly basic fact shows just how desperately ignorant you are in a field you now plan to explain to the members of your church. Do you honestly think, after a clunker like that, that you are in any way qualified to discuss anything at all about the life sciences? Here you are trying to understand arguments about common genetic errors in pseudogenes when you don't even have the taxonomy right! -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Bing Posts: 144 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:35    Quote (afdave @ May 24 2006,13:11) Not the public HERE.  The public OUT THERE.  See, let me walk you through it again. (1) AF Dave needs to sharpen his arguments because he is actively involved in the education of children with regard to Origins.  See www.kids4truth.com.  He does not want to lead these children wrong, so he wants to test his arguments against some evolutionary biologists.  He has big plans for greatly expanded information to be available at k4t. (2) So he comes to PT and finds some willing participants at ATBC, some of whom, like Rilke, have absolutely no clue what his goals are, but they try to guess. (3) AFD has immense fun debating, achieves his goal of honing his arguments, the ATBCers are happy because they think they are honing their arguments, or watching a comedy, practicing their insults, or whatever. So this place is providing selection pressure for AFDave.  His argument evolves. We're effectively a half-used bottle of antibiotic against his infection of kid's minds.  Not enough to kill it, only enough to develop a stronger resistance.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:38    Quote I had a whole roomful of doctors tell me they knew a better treatment for Diabetes than mine when a friend was diagnosed with it.  I warned my friend that they didn't know what they were talking about, but he went with them anyway.  $2,000 in insulin and dietologists and a year and half later the 'experts' finished their treatment to replace my $00.02 system (involving prayer and holy water).  Almost immediately, the calls started coming in from my friend saying that his life was saved... No wait that doesn't work does it Anyway, you gotta watch scientists with degrees sometimes. Like, sometimes, dude, OK? -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:41    Quote AF Dave needs to sharpen his arguments because he is actively involved in the education of children with regard to Origins.  See www.kids4truth.com.  He does not want to lead these children wrong, so he wants to test his arguments against some evolutionary biologists.  He has big plans for greatly expanded information to be available at k4t. You "ID" enthusiasts (though in your case we can admit that it's just good ol' creationism, can't we?) are always on about weighing "both sides". In the interest of "truth" (for kids) are you open to posting on your k4t site a writeup of the gulo story by us AtBCers? -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:44    Quote I had a whole roomful of computer scientists tell me they knew how to build a better data system than mine when we sold our company.  I warned the president that they didn't know what they were talking about, but he went with them anyway.  $700,000 and a year and half later the 'experts' finished their system to replace my $70,000 system.  Almost immediately, the calls started coming in from customers asking for the old system back. This analogy doesn't really work. The upstart computer programmers in your scenario differ from Creationists and ID advocates in a few crucial ways: 1) they weren't actively ignorant of computers 2) they didn't have a religious belief system telling them that only the oldest possible solution (with no adaptations) could ever work 3) they wanted to make money, and were thus motivated to come up with a system that actually worked, rather than just 'winning the argument'. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:50    Hey Dave, since you think highly of Geologists, why not pick one at random and ask him for his opinion on your Young Earth hypothesis and oil formation? -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,08:53    Quote (Faid @ May 24 2006,13:50) Hey Dave, since you think highly of Geologists, why not pick one at random and ask him for his opinion on your Young Earth hypothesis and oil formation? Or perhaps he could check this out: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,09:03    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 24 2006,13:53) Quote (Faid @ May 24 2006,13:50) Hey Dave, since you think highly of Geologists, why not pick one at random and ask him for his opinion on your Young Earth hypothesis and oil formation? Or perhaps he could check this out: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm Wow. Hey Dave, since we both know you never read my links, how about reading someone else's? -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,11:02    Quote (1) AF Dave needs to sharpen his arguments because he is actively involved in the education of children with regard to Origins.  See www.kids4truth.com.  He does not want to lead these children wrong, so he wants to test his arguments against some evolutionary biologists.  He has big plans for greatly expanded information to be available at k4t. (2) So he comes to PT and finds some willing participants at ATBC, some of whom, like Rilke, have absolutely no clue what his goals are, but they try to guess. (3) AFD has immense fun debating, achieves his goal of honing his arguments, the ATBCers are happy because they think they are honing their arguments, or watching a comedy, practicing their insults, or whatever. (4) No one gets bored contemplating their navels. (or someone else's) So Dave's just the perverted kind, Who plays games with a little kid's mind, To make them like him: Unknowing and dim, UnChristian, uncouth, and unkind. Keep 'em coming, 2nd Lt. Dave!  You da man!

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,11:15    2nd Lt. Dave said Quote AF Dave needs to sharpen his arguments because he is actively involved in the education of children with regard to Origins.  See www.kids4truth.com.  He does not want to lead these children wrong, so he wants to test his arguments against some evolutionary biologists.  He has big plans for greatly expanded information to be available at k4t. In America, that's called child-abuse.  Should we report you?

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,11:20    Y'know how Dave is so fond of Lewis?  I think it's appropos that today in the WSJ, there is a quote from Lewis: Quote There are few things more easily corruptible, Lewis observed, than religious belief and practice. "We must fully face the fact that when Christianity does not make a man very much better," he wrote a friend, "it makes him very much worse." It's good to know that Dave exemplifies that observation of Lewis'.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,11:33    Quote In America, that's called child-abuse.  Should we report you? Is it? I'd welcome your thoughts on the issue in the thread i created to discuss that very thing.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,11:37    Quote I have an EE degree so I can say this. let's ask Mr. Science! he has a master's degree in... Science! ahh, brings back memories. oh and dave, parse this equation for me: undergrad EE degree = PhD in linguistics true or false?

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,11:42    Quote In the interest of "truth" (for kids) are you open to posting on your k4t site a writeup of the gulo story by us AtBCers? of course he won't like that, it would confuse the poor kids... strange enough exactly the same argument I would make as to why we shouldn't include creationism in k-12 science courses. It's a double standard Dave could never understand. Dave: have you ever wondered why us "evilutionists" have never come to your church bearing signs that read: "teach the controversy!"

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,12:24    So no one has any rebuttals of my "Bacterial Resistance" paper? Can I chock this up to another win? -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

jeannot Posts: 1201 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,12:36    Quote (afdave @ May 24 2006,17:24) So no one has any rebuttals of my "Bacterial Resistance" paper? Can I chock this up to another win? Do you have particular problems preventing you from reading our posts, Dave? Your paper is based on wrong assumptions, so why should we bother to debunk each point his author tries to make? Bacterial resistance is a new trait that can spread in a population by the genetic mechanisms of inheritance. This is the very definition of evolution. Period. Your paper proves nothing.

Paul Flocken Posts: 290 Joined: Dec. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,12:41    Quote (afdave @ May 24 2006,13:11) Soon the lightbulb will come on for a majority of scientists regarding Intelligent Design and us 'amateur scientists' will go back to our churches and be quiet.  This kind of thing has happened over and over again through the centuries and it will happen here as well. Dave, Could you produce an example please. Oh, could you also point me in the direction of your blog.  I think Ved linked to a picture from it, but I haven't been able to find it.  Googling has found some interesting things but not specifically your blog. Thanks in advance, Paul -------------- "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,12:42    Quote (afdave @ May 24 2006,17:24) So no one has any rebuttals of my "Bacterial Resistance" paper? Can I chock this up to another win? (You mean 'chalk'.) I really don't recall you 'winning' anything so far... Don't interpret lack of a response as assent. When you see a homeless person on the street corner talking about how the CIA beamed experimental radiation into his brain, you don't normally see people rebutting him. Does that mean he must be right? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 24 2006,12:46    Quote (afdave @ May 24 2006,17:24) So no one has any rebuttals of my "Bacterial Resistance" paper? Can I chock this up to another win? Dave, first of all, no one claims that bacterial resistance "proves" macroevolution. If some Creationist site says that anyone makes any such claim, that's what's known as a "straw man" argument." For one thing, bacterial resistance is not an example of macroevolution anyway, so it could hardly be proof of it. As has been pointed out, a newly-evolved bacterial ability to metabolize nylon precursors is evidence of two things: 1) that evolution is observable in the wild; and 2) that irreducible complexity is not a problem for evolutionary theory because a) the metabolic pathway has clearly evolved recently since nylon did not exist until less than a hundred years ago and b) the metabolic pathway is irreducibly complex in that if you take any single part of away, the whole system fails to function. So if you think you've "disproved" anything by your argument about bacterial resistance, you're wrong. If anything, bacterial resistance is merely one minor example of observable evolution. Most examples of evolutionary change happen vastly too slowly to be observed. Certainly "macroevolution" (i.e., evolution above the species or possibly genus level) generally happens on far too slow a timescale to be directly observable. But the evidence that evolution happens is conclusive, whether you want to admit it or not (and you clearly do not). So can you chalk this up to a "win"? Obviously not. Can you chalk it up to "another win"? Well, that presupposes you've won at least one other argument, and so far you haven't won any arguments. And by the way, when are you going to post some evidence on your "Dave's YEC evidence thread"? It hasn't escaped our notice that so far you haven't even posted a message there, let alone presented any evidence. -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

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