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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > AFDave Wants You to Prove Evolution to Him

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BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,09:39    I'd worry about a career involving dangerous equipment. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Drew Headley Posts: 152 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,10:30    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,09:40) In short, Portuguese is a mixture of Spanish and French, which is what I said at first. Are you going to challenge me or not? My girlfriend is a linguist and so I have a good batch of langauge books on hand. One of them, The World's Major Languages edited by Bernard Comrie, has a chapter on Portuguese.   Quote Portuguese, the national language of Portugal and Brazil, belongs to the Romance Language group. It is descended from the Vulgar Latin of the estern Iberian Peninsula (the regions of Gallaecia and Lusitania of the Roman Empire), as is Galician, often wrongly considered a dialect of Spanish. It goes into the history of Portugal a bit, and then returns to the langauge's origins.   Quote For several centuries after the independence of Portugal, the divergence of Portuguese and Galician was slight enough for them to be considered variants of the same language. Galician-Portuguese was generally preferred to Castilian as a medium for lyric poetry until the middle of the fourteenth century. Portuguese first appears as the language of legal documents at the beginning of the thirteenth century, coexisting with Latin throughout that century and finally replacing it during the reign of D. Dinis (1279-1325). Hope this helps. Edit: Further reading shows that it actually has a lot of influences from the Moors, which Arabized the language a bit.

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,10:43    Quote (Drew Headley @ May 19 2006,15:30) Edit: Further reading shows that it actually has a lot of influences from the Moors, which Arabized the language a bit. And nothing about French, I take it? -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Drew Headley Posts: 152 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,10:47    I have not seen French mentioned once in the chapter so far. Edit: Just read through the syntax and lexicon sections. It is a very odd language the preserves a lot of pre-Roman Celtic and post-Roman German mixed with Arabic. No mention of French influence.

improvius Posts: 807 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,10:54    But, clearly, it appears (if only to Dave) to be a mixture of French and Spanish.  And as we've seen in every one of his posts, that's really all the evidence Dave needs. -------------- Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37) Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late. Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,11:20    I've said before that I don't know anything about Portuguese history, and precious little about linguistics. But I do speak a little French (very little, and with an outrageous accent, you silly English knnnnnnnnniggits! ), and I used to work with a lot of Brazilians and your occasional Cape Verdean, who spoke Portuguese. In my experience, Portuguese sounds quite a bit like Spanish, and nothing at all like French. So if "appearing to resemble" a mixture of Spanish and French does it for Dave in terms of proof, I'd have to say he's still wrong, even by his own standards. -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,11:34    Oh, and Dave—how are we doing with the Theobald? -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,11:40    In all the links I posted above (and they're much more than the inexact and flawed Wikipedia) there's not a single mention of French influence in Portuguese save the occasional borrowing of a word or two. They all say the same thing: That it originates from vulgar latin, and evolved (hah! parallel to Spanish. In fact, the last link claims that it's far closer to Latin (along with Italian, of course) than most other Romance languages. Dave, if you have different data and evidence, why not share it? We're actually curious about this. Unless you're still after our money, and looking to raise the stakes...   <edit: even some sites for tourists say the same thing!!!1> -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,11:50    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,13:44) Quote Portugal traces its national origin to 24 June 1128 with the Battle of São Mamede. Afonso proclaimed himself first Prince of Portugal and in 1139 the first King of Portugal. By 1143, with the assistance of a representant of the Holy See at the conference of Zamora, Portugal was formally recognized as independent, with the prince recognized as Dux Portucalensis. In 1179, Afonso I was declared, by the Pope, as king. After the Battle of São Mamede, the first capital of Portugal was Guimarães, from which the first king ruled. Later, when Portugal was already officially independent, he ruled from Coimbra. Rilke--  Check to see who Afonso's father was.  You'll find in was Henry of Burgundy, a French nobleman who helped fight the Muslims. Now, since everybody is whining on your behalf, I'll lower the wager.  You tell me what you are willing to risk to prove you superiority and my idiocy. I wouldn't hold your feet to the fire, Rilke, but you were pretty rash and blatant and bold.  I'll give you a hint ... Sometimes you get what you pay for on Wikipedia. If you want to keep being a jerk, I'm going to shine a bigger and bigger spotlight on you ... otherwise, I'll drop it and we'll move on. Now Dave, lets be exact here.  You said several things: Quote Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed). We can see from every single resource that you were lying.  Or fabricating nonsense. When challenged on that particular piece of fatuous nonsense, you changed your story completely to Quote Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language.  But alas!  Once again we find that you were lying or fabricating: Henry was already dead by 1143. Dave, you are the stupidest, clumsiest, most egotistical liar I've seen in years.  You don't know a single thing about Portuguese, and you're too vain to admit that you were completely wrong. So let's see.... David makes a factually incorrect statement. When caught, he changes the statement and lies. When caught at that, he blusters and tries to bet his way out with more lies. Dave - [i]this is flagrantly unChristian behavior.  How can you call yourself a Christian when you're a liar, and stupid, and ignorant.  (Well, wait a minute, you could certainly be a Christian and the last two of those.   ) How can you do it, Dave?  How can you be a Christian and be so dishonest? Idiot.

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,11:53    To the other posters: wow!  What an incredible yutz you've got here.  Amazing.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,12:06    Rilke, Darnit. You took some of my thunder. How am I ever going to get dave to take part in a real debate if you spoil it for me? (P.S. there is a french influence, but Davey-dog has his history messed up) Davey-dog, you are an idiot. I rest my case. But I am still having fun making fun of you. And for anyone who harbored a doubt that Davey-dog was as fantastically stupid as he appears,...Well, I will continue to provide evidence to the contrary OK Davey-dog, how come the Appalachians are low and the Himalayas are high? Please tell me that you can prove that god made them that way. By the way, forget what these other guys say, you are probably right on the portuguese thing. I am afraid that I will lose the bet I so foolishly made and you will be writing a post for my blog. Anything I forgot? Oh yeah, you are an idiot. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,12:10    BWE, my heartfelt apologies.  Go ahead and challenge Dave. Hey, Dave!  If I'm right about the Portuguese thing (your original claim, mind you) then you have to have a one-on-one debate with BWE. Actually, since you were wrong about your second claim as well, I guess you lose twice.  Debates all around! I guess all that "goggling" really pays off, eh what?

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,12:14    Quote (Rilke's Granddaughter @ May 19 2006,16:53) To the other posters: wow!  What an incredible yutz you've got here.  Amazing. I can't wait to see his "refutation" of radiometric dating. But I think I'm going to have to. Long wait for a train don't come, I'm thinking. -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,12:23    OK, Dave-bashing aside, now I'm really curious. The only French influence I can find is supposed to occur in the 18th century, creating the difference in syntax between Portugal and the colonies: http://www.alsintl.com/languages/portuguese.htm -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,12:23    Whats a "yutz"?  It sounds faintly disturbing.

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,12:29    Quote (guthrie @ May 19 2006,17:23) Whats a "yutz"?  It sounds faintly disturbing. I think it's basically Yiddish for "idiot." -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,13:04    Quote (Faid @ May 19 2006,17:23) OK, Dave-bashing aside, now I'm really curious. The only French influence I can find is supposed to occur in the 18th century, creating the difference in syntax between Portugal and the colonies: http://www.alsintl.com/languages/portuguese.htm Yes.  Unfortunately, that still doesn't make it a mixture of French and Spanish. Dave will, of course, find some way to twist his own words (and others) to try and avoid looking like an idiot, rather than displaying intellectual integrity and admittibg he was mistaken.  Any bets on that?

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,13:45    Ah, this is just so sweet. To recap, AFDave said he'd bet anybody that Quote AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy. Shortly afterward we find out that by 1143, Portuguese was already a language, and Henry of Burgundy was long dead. At this point I have to chastise all of you mean AtBCers. He's already badly beaten, and you jerks are running up the score. Shame on you. ;-)

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,14:26    He keeps coming back. Haven't you ever seen a 3 stooges episode? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,14:30    With Davetard and AFDave &c it's like we're amateur martial arts enthusiasts, and overweight smokers with bad eyesight keep running up and challenging us. Sure, we've got some skills, but under these circumstances we get to feel like Chuck Norris.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,20:03    as to Dave's "wager"  did i miss something or did anyone else immediately think Hovind. http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear....nge.htm No matter what is wagered, Dave will always claim to have won the wager, because he initially set himself up as the arbiter and the "decider" (pardon the pun). Dave's entire worldview literally depends at this point on him being "right" about everything, or it collapses under its own weight. Dave- you are in a very dangerous state of mind right now.  I highly suggest you take a look at what happens to folks juggling your type of worldview. (hint: they go off the deep end) seek medical treatment. seriously.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,20:13    @faid, who said: Quote Well, it seems my old question was finally answered. Thanks Dave. it was? unless your question really was, "will Dave give a non-response to even the simplest questions" then I can't see how his answer addresses your qeustion. seems all he did was say: It's too hard for me to think about right now, maybe my strained brain will be able to think about it later. do you see an answer there I don't?

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,06:22    Is it too soon to wonder if the silence of the dave signals a long-overdue moment of reflection on the possibility he might be wrong? -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,07:50    I think I might have proved my point. Wow. Easier than I thought. And I didn't even have to trot out a single shred of evidence. That, perhaps, is what AF Davey-dog was hoping to accomplish. Maybe fundies see the intelligent. educated segment of the population consistently doing that and they figure that's how debate works. I was hoping for more of a challenge than that. Maybe Salvador. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,10:40    Quote Is it too soon to wonder if the silence of the dave signals a long-overdue moment of reflection on the possibility he might be wrong? yes.  far too soon. I think you might be waiting for an independent event to signal such. something like... He11 freezing over?

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,12:32    Well, well, well ... It was good I went to the lake yesterday and didn't get to do any posting yet because I see a lot more people climbed onto Rilke's branch that I'm about to saw off ... And I see Rilke is not willing to back up her outrageous claims of intellectual superiority with any money at all. I do see that Steve has come up with his own little wager of $1000. Let me deal with Steve's little deal first.  I won't bet you on that because you are correct that Henry was dead long before 1143.  I composed my sentence ambiguously ... it should have read "Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control.  The break away was begun by a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy" --  little more specific. Again, what we are doing here, though is answering a claim by Rilke that I am an idiot for thinking Portuguese is a mix of Spanish and French.  There will be several lessons learned here.  One will be that I have met many people like Rilke on these threads who are very arrogant about their supposed intellectual superiority and at the same time are quite vehement about attacking the supposed lack of intelligence they see in YECs like me. OK ... brace yourselves ... the branch is coming down ... everybody got your body padding on? This from Rilke's source of choice (Wikipedia) ... I guess she just didn't read far enough ...   Quote Although the vocabularies of Spanish and Portuguese are quite similar, phonetically Portuguese is somewhat closer to Catalan or to French. It is often claimed that the complex phonology of Portuguese compared to Spanish explains why it is generally not intelligible to Spanish speakers despite the strong lexical similarity between the two languages.Portuguese and French Of course if you get a good Medieval History Encyclopedia, you can get all kinds of details about this period in history when Portuguese and Spanish diverged.  What you will see is massive Burgundian influence beginning with the influx of thousands of Burgundian knights in response to Alfonso VI who had a Burgundian wife, then the Burgundian Henry, grandson of Robert I of Burgundy then to Afonso Henriques, son of Henry.  [Oh ... by the way ... I guess I'd better fill you in that Burgundy is in France ... small detail].  Anyway, Afonso Henriques captures Lisbon and sets up his capital.  Then if you do some further reading, you find out that standard Portuguese is based on the dialect of Lisbon, according to Rilke's other favorite source, Encyclopedia Brittanica.  Can you guess that Lisbon probably had greater French influence than anywhere else in Portugal?  I hope I'm not moving too fast for anyone. Hmmm ... let's think now ... a whole bunch of French knights come into western Spain to help out the king who has a French wife.  Another French guy comes into Spain and marries a Spanish wife.  They take over Lisbon and set up the Kingdom of Portugal.  Do you see what's happening?  This is not rocket science folks.   This is kind of like 1+2=3.  See?  Spanish + French = Portuguese. Now if you have all three of these languages in your own family (my mother speaks fluent Portuguese and Spanish and my cousin speaks fluent French), you tend to have a little better overview of these languages than the average Joe (or Rilke).  I can tell you that if you have heard all three languages like I have, the mix is quite obvious. And if you think and are honest (I'm finding this to be a slightly scarce combo here), instead of just shoot your mouth off about how all YECs are stupid idiots, you can see how Wikipedia would make a statement like ... phonetically Portuguese is somewhat closer to Catalan or to French. (by the way, Catalan the language of Andorra -- just below France on the map) RRRRRRR ... CREEEEK ... (noise of branch breaking) ... (whistling sound as branch accelerates toward ground) ... (screams of terror) ... WUMP! (branch loaded with arrogant evolutionists hits ground) OK.  So now you have a choice.  You can get up, brush yourself off, wipe the egg off your face and go back to trying to make reasonable arguments in favor of evolution, which is what I would recommend if you want to help the "Evolution Cause" OR ... You can somehow try to weasel out of the fact that you've been had.   Either choice you make, I'm going to take this thread back to it's intended content and expand it a bit.  I will pretty much abandon the Ape Thread now as it has served its purpose.  I have successfully shown that there is nothing more than flimsy evidence which could be construed as positive support for Common Descent of Apes and Humans, although there is excellent evidence for common ancestry within the Apes as well as within all the other originally created kinds. (And while you are all at church tomorrow, you can confess all your arrogance and unkind words) (Oh ... don't forget to thank Rilke for leading you into this mess! (Rilke--you probably knew about this little detail in Wikipedia, but just withheld it, right?  Very honest of you) (Oh ... BTW ... Faid-- you and some others have put words into my mouth about the 7 day week thing and I see you think I'm mistaken about that too ... would you like to pursue this further?  Maybe take a softer approach so that you don't fall so hard?) Have a nice evening! -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,12:36    So Davey-dog, Are you taking my wager? That is pretty darning evidence you've got there. I really wish I could retract my bet but, unfortunately, I already made it. I agree that Rilke was a little simplistic. It will be a hard debate, but I will do my best. So? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,12:39    So when you said the guy was living in 1143, and it turns out he'd been dead 31 years, you were being 'ambiguous'? Lemme help you with some definitions Quote   am·big·u·ous   adj.   1. Open to more than one interpretation: an ambiguous reply.   2. Doubtful or uncertain: “The theatrical status of her frequently derided but constantly revived plays remained ambiguous” (Frank Rich). Quote   wrong (rông) adj.   1. Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.   2.         1. Contrary to conscience, morality, or law; immoral or wicked.         2. Unfair; unjust.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,12:40    Dave, I'm no etymologist (neither are you, obviously), but isn't assuming one language as derivative of another based on phonetic similarity kinda like assuming oranges are derived from lemons because they are both round? think about it for a second. when you say "portugeuse is a combination of french and spanish", you literally are saying that there is no distinct portugeuse language outside of these other two. Is that what you really think? I doubt many portugeuse linguisticians would agree with that statment. would you say american english is a combination of french, german, spanish and UK english? or is it really that culture influences all language to a greater or lesser extent, and so words are adopted into everybody's language that reflects this? just for ONCE in your existence on ATBC, use your brain and work this out.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 20 2006,12:47    Quote will pretty much abandon the Ape Thread now as it has served its purpose.  I have successfully shown that there is nothing more than flimsy evidence which could be construed as positive support for Common Descent of Apes and Humans, although there is excellent evidence for common ancestry within the Apes as well as within all the other originally created kinds. I do hereby rest my case that what you have in fact shown is a complete inability to rationally parse any argument whatsoever, and even to recognize that fact. I again ask you to provide evidence that you can form logical, evidence based, rational argumentation on any subject you have a more relevant background in. engineering, perhaps?  didn't you say you had an engineering degree? care to show us anyplace on the web where we can examine your ability to rationally parse arguments in engineering? Quote (And while you are all at church tomorrow, you can confess all your arrogance and unkind words) there's that projection again. Dave, I should have gotten your comments on the parallels drawn by this simple comic which perchance even your addled brain might grasp:

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