Ftk
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007
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Okay, Kristine, I find you quite interesting...you may not want to continue this conversation because I’m not sure my comments can all be classified as “science”, but nonetheless, I’ll throw it out there anyway and maybe you‘ll take a stab at it.
| Quote | | FTK- since you asked: Lutheran. I stopped believing in God (if I ever did) at age nine. I did what was expected of me and it never occurred to me to ask to go elsewhere - otherwise I would have asked to go to a different school, too (and grow up elsewhere). It's no one's fault that I was different, restless, a tomboy, a voracious reader, a questioner and an artistic kid stuck in a small town she hated. |
Hmmm...I grew up Lutheran as well. I’ve since dropped the dogma of “religion” and attend a non-denominational church which is a more authentic, down to earth, fact driven environment. Nothing against Lutherans, but I wanted an environment where I was learning more about why we believe, not what we believe (plus the organ music and hymns from 1850 were torture to sit through).
| Quote | | I don't believe in the supernatural. I have no evidence for the nonexistence or existence of God. I'm more interested in what I can do. Reality is participatory, like democracy. |
This type of statement has always been of extreme interest to me. From what I have gathered, atheists are quite driven by the belief that we must use our reason and intellect when considering the many facets of this debate, and education is what they believe to be the key that allows one to dismiss the “myth” of the supernatural. Yet, they have no evidence that God doesn’t exist. It seems to me that the only option for someone who doesn’t believe that there is evidence for or against the supernatural would be to adhere to agnosticism. So, what is it that takes a person that step further and claim that their belief is that there is no god? I’ve never quite been able to figure that one out.
And, for me, it seems like an interest in science automatically leads to the question of the origin of life. But, I suppose I’m just an odd duck. The bottom line for me is that I ~can’t~ conceive of the universe evolving from nothing whatsoever. That is an extremely irrational, illogical conclusion, IMHO. So, that leads to the next obvious question..is there any evidence at all that supports the notion of a supernatural or natural designer, and can we learn anything about that source of our existence from science, history, archeology, or other areas of study. So, that’s were I’ve been for the past 6+ years - addicted to finding the answers to these questions.
| Quote | | Anybody has the right to try to convert anybody. |
While that may be true, I have no interest in attempting to convert a hard core atheist. I’ve never converted anyone in my life, and I am *certainly* not going to attempt it here.
| Quote | | A recent poll confirms that Americans, who are so religious, are biblically illiterate. Read Rick Warren and see what an intellectual he is. *Bleah!* |
Could be. I’m certainly not going to doubt that. I’ve met some pretty biblically illiterate Christians in my day. But, I will say that there are many biblical scholars and everyday Christians who could probably carry on a very intellectual conversation with you. Does the fact that so many Christians don’t know what’s in their bible make Christianity wrong? Nope. Does the fact that many atheists don’t know squat about science and consider Dawkins et.al. as their source that proves the non-existence of the supernatural make atheism the wrong conclusion? Not necessarily.
Regarding your science teacher:
| Quote | | He didn’t go there. “If you want to believe that ‘Something started it,’ and that’s God for you, fine. If you want to believe that things always being in motion is God, fine. Or you can just believe that everything was always in motion, forever back however long it extends if there was a beginning. But if you put down on any test that ‘God did it,’ you get an F.” He paused, and then said with a twinkle, “And even if God takes my class and puts down on my test that ‘I did it,’ He’ll get an F, too. And then I’ll keep Him after class and make Him write a paper. Boy, [winking] would I make Him write a paper! |
I have no problem with what your science teacher told you. In fact, I agree with him.
| Quote | | I think it's important how one believes, if one is going to be a believer. |
I certainly agree with that, but I think it’s different for different people. Some have no problem believing in a God or Buddha or whatever on blind faith. For me, that seems insane. That is why I have a hard time understanding the mindset of some theistic evolutionists that I’ve talked with. They state that they are Christian, but it seems to me that they base their beliefs on faith alone because they do not seem interested in considering the evidence for their beliefs.
| Quote | | Incidentally, Ftk, I have recently encountered, though unfortunately not yet met, a Christian who is a scientist and who impressed me very much with his book. He really took me by surprise. But look at how he is being treated. |
Yeah, I’m pretty familiar with Miller’s arguments, and it doesn’t surprise me that atheists are impressed with him. He believes everything that they do in regard to the issues of this debate, except in the end he states that he is a Christian with no further explanation of ~what~ he bases his Christian beliefs upon.
It sounds to me that he bases his Christian beliefs on that “feel-ology” thing that you seem to abhor. So, I’m not sure why you are impressed with him. I actually exchanged a few emails with him once because he is someone who is of extreme interest to me as well. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere between his theology and his science. Of course, he was not keen on telling me much because he had read my review of his KU lecture, but he did mention something that I felt might shed a little light on the reason for his beliefs.
Anyway, I am curious why a guy like Miller impresses you when he doesn’t seem to me to be using his intellect in regard to his religious beliefs - rather he seems to rely on “feel-ology“.
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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths" -forastero
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