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sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,10:01   

Quote
After a while of that, they start to realize the stupidity of the statement and how stupid someone looks for saying it.


yer a fool fer sanity, BV!

more power.

;)

  
beervolcano



Posts: 147
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,10:51   

Quote (sir_toejam @ May 27 2006,15:01)
Quote
After a while of that, they start to realize the stupidity of the statement and how stupid someone looks for saying it.


yer a fool fer sanity, BV!

more power.

;)

'ppreciate it! But maybe you won't want me to 'power up' after disagreeing with you on the other thread.

(shrug) O well! :)

more power (of greyskull, of course) back at ya




--------------
("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."--Jonathan Swift)

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,11:10   

naww, one argument is one argument.

I'm sure i could even find something i agree with AFDave on.  

I just haven't seen it yet.

and actually, i rather appreciated your response in that thread.

took me back.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2006,21:07   

Dembski is trying to whip up fervour from the troops:

The argument from incredulity vs. The argument from gullibility

Turn your irony meters off first.

Ha!  I love this one:

Quote
ID is the only theory under which certain research could be validated.

For example, it is observed that introns (’junk’ to RM+NS) have Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) of the same order as human langauge. Studies have revealed that unexpressed introns are informationally more dense than exon expressions.

Anyone who has designed any sort of code knows the importance of embedding documentation in the source. When the code is compiled the documentation does not appear in the resulting binaries.

Similarly, introns are not trascribed.

Source code documentation contains information about the algorithms such as:
- Meta-data (ontological descriptions)
- Pseudo code (methodological descriptions)
- Copyright information (intellecutal property notifications)

If we believe that genetic code is designed by an intellect, then shouldn’t we be looking for the copyright information? This intellect would probably have considerable legal abilities, not to mention foresight.

Exam question: What impact would this have on genetic patents?

Comment by Collin DuCrâne — May 27, 2006 @ 8:37 pm


Based on his previous posts, I don't think he's joking.

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Corkscrew



Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,01:32   

Uh... I suspect that the data in question will be slightly out of copyright. Even in the US.

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,02:04   

Oh I don't know corkscrew, The Fundies jeremiad claims that HE will be returning any minute now to claim back royalties and boy is someone going to pay!

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,04:55   

Quote
Quote

If we believe that genetic code is designed by an intellect, then shouldn’t we be looking for the copyright information? This intellect would probably have considerable legal abilities, not to mention foresight.

Exam question: What impact would this have on genetic patents?

Comment by Collin DuCrâne — May 27, 2006 @ 8:37 pm


Based on his previous posts, I don't think he's joking.

Too bad I beat him to it last year.

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,05:06   

Curious.  I wrote two messages to the Incredilby Gullible post.  One got through (and received a typical ds response).  The other did not:
Quote
<blockquote>The comments from Dennet, Dawkins, Hauser, Coyne are all assertion and no substantiation.</blockquote>

Perhaps the substantiation is in the rest of the articles.  I'll leave it to BarryA explain the perils of quote mining.  :-)

Bob

I guess they don't want me spoiling the fun.

Bob
P.S. bFast's comment (no. 21) clearly show the lack of relationship between creationism and ID.  *ahem*

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,07:49   

After reading of SteveB's banning, and comparisons to Potemkin villages, I reexamined my previous mental analogy of "Dembski:DaveScot as Lenin:Stalin" and came to the conclusion that I prefer "Dembski:DaveScot as Kim Il-sung:Kim Jong-il." It's true that DaveScot has Stalinist cachet, but I prefer the Kim pairing for its ultra-weird, ultra-cultish, ultra-worker'sparadisedon'tlookoverthere factors.

Although I could go with (give me some leeway here) Behe as Lenin, Dembski as Stalin, ... and DaveScot as Enver Hoxha!

  
beervolcano



Posts: 147
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,14:22   

[quote=Bob O'H,May 28 2006,02:07][/quote]
   
Quote
For example, it is observed that introns (’junk’ to RM+NS) have Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) of the same order as human langauge.

Was human language Intelligently Designed?



The argument from incredulity vs. The argument from gullibility is a false comparison in their post.

An argument from incredulty is simply saying, "I can't believe it happened the way you purport simply because I don't believe it, despite the evidence."

As far as an argument from gullibility. Maybe there are people trying to convince you that their theory is absolutely the way something had to happen. Most people, on the other hand, say that here is one plausible scenario backed up by evidence. If you absolutely believe something had to happen, based on very limited evidence, then perhaps you are either being gullible or expressing faith in your beliefs.

Well, there's an interesting delimma. If belief in Darwinism is an argument from gullibility and an expression of faith, then belief in Christianism(ity) must certainly be an argument from gullibility. That would also mean all faith is an argument from gullibility.

Nice going, Bill. You convinced me that you are a very gullible person.

"Right on!"

--------------
("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."--Jonathan Swift)

  
beervolcano



Posts: 147
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,14:26   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1165#comment-40478
Quote
For the true Darwinian fundamentalist they are neither causes nor effects.


Right on!

--------------
("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."--Jonathan Swift)

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,05:59   

Just spotted in a PT comment:

Quote
Posted by Shalini, BBWAD on May 29, 2006 02:28 AM (e)


BBWAD?  Took me a moment, but it thoroughly deserves a

"Right on!"

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
George



Posts: 316
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,07:21   

Bob O'H:
Quote

I think George (who may or may not be a pink hippo) is asking for a banning:


Bzzt, wrong.  I'm no pink hippo.

This is closer to the truth:



Not banned either.  I posted some follow-up questions just now, but forgot to save them for posterity.  Oh well, the thread's stale anyway.  Didn't have the time at the weekend.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,11:17   

Sgt. DimBulb has apparently forgotten his "blackbody photon temperature" humiliation and is now presuming to lecture his intellectual superiors on spectral absorption:
     
Quote ( DoofTard @ May 29 2006)
The color of an object is the light that it doesn’t absorb. Green plants absorb all visible light frequencies EXCEPT green. Black objects absorb it all. White objects reflect it all. This is very basic physics that you should have learned in the sixth grade. -ds

Later, after a commenter named Zachriel has helpfully supplied an absorption spectrum for chlorophyll, Dave writes:              
 
Quote
[sigh] This isn’t introductory physics. Telling me “plants are green” does not support the statement that most of the light is not absorbed. Only a small portion (green light) is actually reflected.

Dave apparently doesn't understand that because of the way the retina is built, many different spectra can result in the same perceived color.  In this case, reflectance is high from blue-green all the way to orange, but Dave insists that only green light is being reflected.

He closes his comment in typical condescending Tard fashion:            
Quote
If there are still parts of this you don’t understand go somewhere else for the answers and come back when you know more. -ds

Dave's been subscribing to Scientific American for 30 years, as he will proudly tell you.  The question is, does he ever actually read it?

As a bonus, he proceeds in his next comment to contradict himself in the space of two sentences (besides spelling compressible and compressibility wrong):
       
Quote
Compressability and information content are synonymous. An uncompressable stream is carrying as much information as physically possible.

Link to thread

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,13:17   

'Tard is right.  Notice the peak in the blue region - most of the light received from the sun is in the blue region too - that's why the sky is blue (I can't find an appropriate smiley which shows how sarky I'm being here, could you do something about that Wesley?)

Also note: this graph was produced by people who are part of a conspiracy. It appears to show aborption trailing off at the periphery when in actual fact it, it jumps back to about 50% for all values outside the visible range, bringing up the average (searches for smiley again, D@mn! ).

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,13:34   

Quote
The whole multiverse idea is pseudoscientific nonsense because there’s no way to test it. There’s only one universe that can be observed, measured, and analyzed. Certain physical constants could have taken on a number of different values when the universe was picoseconds old. Minute variations in some of those would have made it impossible for life as we know it to exist. I take the fine tuning argument as an uninteresting given - the universe was evidently designed and only pseudoscientific infinite multiverse theories can begin to dispute it. -ds


Heh. What a dumbass.

 
Quote
The whole multiverse idea is pseudoscientific nonsense because there’s no way to test it. There’s only one universe that can be observed, measured, and analyzed.

Let's stipulate that.

 
Quote
Certain physical constants could have taken on a number of different values when the universe was picoseconds old.

O RLY. Care to tell us what those values are, and get a free plane ride to Sweden?

 
Quote
Minute variations in some of those would have made it impossible for life as we know it to exist.

Oh, Well, what other kind of life could there possibly be? If I can't imagine it, it's not possible.

 
Quote
I take the fine tuning argument as an uninteresting given - the universe was evidently designed and only pseudoscientific infinite multiverse theories can begin to dispute it. -ds

So you posit a designer which is outside the universe, making it, by your words above, "pseudoscientific nonsense". Couldn't agree more, Davetard. Right now DougMoron is looking at you and saying, "BRING IT ON, SPRINGER."

link to thread

   
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,13:56   

Quote (stevestory @ May 29 2006,18:34)
   
Quote
I take the fine tuning argument as an uninteresting given - the universe was evidently designed and only pseudoscientific infinite multiverse theories can begin to dispute it. -ds

So you posit a designer which is outside the universe, making it, by your words above, "pseudoscientific nonsense". Couldn't agree more, Davetard. Right now DougMoron is looking at you and saying, "BRING IT ON, SPRINGER."

link to thread

No, he could have been some sort of omnipotent omnibenevolent, omniscient super-alien of infinite grace who lives inside this universe, which he designed to be just right for him, and subsequently saw to be good - I mean, er, you're a boring panda, consider yourself triple-plus-and-then-some banned (again).

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,14:21   

Re "most of the light received from the sun is in the blue region too"

Hmm. So what color does the sun have to an observer in orbit above the atmosphere?
(Assuming appropriate gear to dim it enough to allow observation.)

Henry

  
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,14:39   

Quote (Henry J @ May 29 2006,19:21)
Re "most of the light received from the sun is in the blue region too"

Hmm. So what color does the sun have to an observer in orbit above the atmosphere?
(Assuming appropriate gear to dim it enough to allow observation.)

Henry

It would be blue. However, there's so much blue that the blue receptors in the eye are completly overloaded. The non-blueness of the sun is a side effect of the human visual system, er, and and cameras and such. (For non-Brits, sarky = sarcastic, pertaining to a low form of mocking 'wit', which we Brits sometimes confuse with irony).

Smilies etc.

  
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,14:49   

Quote
My query had to do with the question of how efficiency was being defined for this particular discussion. I find the argument that some process only makes use of some small percentage of an available resource indicates that that process is inefficient to be unconvincing. To me, efficiency has to do with what the process does with that small percentage that it actually does something with.

priceless. Everything is 100% efficient if you use the right definition.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,14:57   

Quote
My query had to do with the question of how efficiency was being defined for this particular discussion. I find the argument that some process only makes use of some small percentage of an available resource indicates that that process is inefficient to be unconvincing. To me, efficiency has to do with what the process does with that small percentage that it actually does something with.

Let me provide an analogy. My refrigerator is full of food. It is all available to me at this moment. Just because I don’t empty my refrigerator at every meal it doesn’t mean I am being inefficient with the food that I eat.

Comment by Mung — May 29, 2006 @ 7:27 pm



   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,17:00   

Davetard apparenly doesn't understand basic terminology differences between science and math.

 
Quote
#44

As Stu Harris commented on a previous UD thread: “What’s wrong with an argument from personal incredulity anyway? If I find someone’s proposed explanation for something to be incredulous, what is necessarily wrong with that? It can’t always be due to my lack of imagination, it’s just as possible that it’s due to a bad explanation. It’s up to the one making the proposition to go beyond my rational incredulity, my skepticism, and convince me of their argument, and change my inference to the best explanation. In the case of the proponents of Darwinism, it’s up to them to show the truth of their explanation for evolution and not just make appeals to imagination.”

I added that one commentator made the following observation: Imagine that a mathematician came up with a new theorem but had not proven it. A colleague challenges the theorem, saying that it doesn’t make sense to him. The first mathematician replies, “Just because you are personally incredulous about my theorem doesn’t make it false!” Would we expect this argumentation to convince the mathematics community of the validity of the theorem, and to base a new branch of mathematics upon it?

Faith in Darwinian mechanisms to explain all of life really does demonstrate gullibility when one considers all of the obvious, gaping, evidential and logical holes in the theory.

Comment by GilDodgen — May 29, 2006 @ 8:42 am
Quote
#58

–”I added that one commentator made the following observation: Imagine that a mathematician came up with a new theorem but had not proven it. A colleague challenges the theorem, saying that it doesn’t make sense to him. The first mathematician replies, “Just because you are personally incredulous about my theorem doesn’t make it false!” Would we expect this argumentation to convince the mathematics community of the validity of the theorem, and to base a new branch of mathematics upon it?”–Comment by GilDodgen — May 29, 2006 @ 8:42 am

This is a poor analogy. A theorem is not a theorem without the proof. What you are refering to is properly called a conjecture.

Since there’s no proof of evolution doesn’t it then follow that it is conjecture? -ds

Comment by dennis grey — May 29, 2006 @
7:57 pm


and right before that, Davetard wholly misunderstands basic statistics:

Quote
#54

Given the current model of the universe it’s probably true that small variations would have made life (as we know it) impossible, but there’s no way of knowing right now what the possible variations are, so it seems meaningless to talk about “fine tuning” and possible “intelligent choice” of constants if we don’t know what the “tuning ranges” are of the so-called constants. We don’t even really know if the constants are really constant over time, that’s just an assumption. The current model of the universe appears to be deeply flawed given that cosmologists have to postulate on an almost daily basis different amounts of unobserved “dark matter” to make the observations fit the model.

Is it meaningless to talk about a cake recipe if we don’t know the range of choices in the ingredients? -ds

Comment by Raevmo — May 29, 2006 @
6:45 pm


How dumb can a person be?

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,17:42   

Over on the gullibility/incredulity thread, crandaddy pees his pants with excitement:
     
Quote (crandaddy @ May 29 2006)
Wow! Did I read that right?! Nothing?! Nature is simply littered with the appearance of purpose, and NOTHING makes sense in the light of ID?!!! Unbelievable! And to think this comes from a professor of biology from the University of Chicago! We should really be encouraging these people to continue to speak out against ID; they’re digging the grave for their own “theory”!!! I love it!!!

They may be digging a grave, crandaddy, but don't get too excited until you see which theory gets buried.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,17:46   

It occurs to me that "gullibility/incredulity thread" is a pretty accurate description of every thread on Uncommonly Dense.

Gullibility on the part of the sycophants who lap it up, and incredulity on the part of those who are about to be banned.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,18:01   

Quote
Later, after a commenter named Zachriel has helpfully supplied an absorption spectrum for chlorophyll...


interesting, the link provided came from the Monterey Bary Aquarium Research Insitute.

I used to work with those guys once upon a time.

check out the main site sometime:

mbari.org

(creationist content free, trust me)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,19:52   

Quote
#58

To understand (somewhat) Coyne’s statement that “nothing in biology makes sense in the light of ID” it might help to know that he studies the speciation process. In particular, the accumulation of reproductive barriers between diverging populations. I read he and Orr’s text on the subject recently, and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the observational and experimental data evolutionary biologists struggle to account for. Remember that even if a new nonDarwinian paradigm ultimately emerges, it must not only show why Darwinism is *incorrect*, but, in order to be successful, it must also *account for*, via alternative means, all the empirical data previously dealt with via Darwinism. Speciation/reproductive barrier formation definitely makes the “to do” list. It is exceedingly difficult–though perhaps not impossible–to translate these phenomenon to ID-language. One would (possibly) have to accept front-loading of the universe/life such that these reproductive barriers were engineered from the outset so that speciation would occur. Although I guess it would depend on how much you think your designer dictated in their design vs. how much was left to chance during the unfolding of the design. The way I see it, if ID ultimately seizes the reigns of biological academia, there will be a long list of things on the docket for adequate explanation. For example: speciation and reproductive barrier formation, genetic disease, cancer, vestigial organs/limbs/bones, balancing selection (e.g. sickle-cell allele/malaria), and so on. These and many other concepts flow rather naturally from darwinian theory, but would appear–at least to me–awkward to handle from a design perspective. So while darwinism is repeatedly demonstrated to have numerous gaps–some more or less gaping than others, some more or less admitted than others–I think it’s important to remember that for a scientific/philosophic movement to ultimately be successful, it must not only show how the opposing theory is *wrong*, it must ultimately reveal *how* it came to be mistaken, as well as *account* for all the data previously “explained” by the opposing theory. If I remember my intellectual history correctly, it was St. Aquinas who championed this general method of argumentation. As wise and powerful today as it was then. Once the one blind man understands he has been examining an elephant, he should be able to articulate clearly to his blind friend just why it was that he, the friend, was under the false impression that they were adjacent to a large, snake-like creature… Dethroning Darwinism is just the very first step. What comes next? What’s on the agenda? If the answer entails metaphysical speculation about the possible attributes of the designer, as opposed to positive and fruitful research paradigms, then I predict the reign of ID will be very short-lived. The march of human progress has been marked by an ever-increasing intolerance of metaphysics.

Comment by great_ape — May 30, 2006 @ 12:01 am



I am intolerant of your homophysics! -dt

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,22:57   

Thats a nice quote, it sums up the problem that ID proponents have, and how they have no room to manouvre.  If they get all metaphysical, they lose any hope of a wider appeal, and they cannot actually get more scientific, because it involves lots of work and may be impossible.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,06:01   

ID proponents are totally boned. They can't propose anything specific without pissing off half their supporters, and everybody knows they're just creationists under an assumed name. All they can do is sit around making vainglorious statements on blogs, while real scientists carry on doing real science.

   
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,07:02   

Steve,
We both know that's not true.  They can also co-opt all the scientists' work and say that it supports design, they can call for the Waterloo of evolution, they can proselytize, etc.  There's lots they can do.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2006,07:36   

Quote (stevestory @ May 29 2006,18:34)
Quote
The whole multiverse idea is pseudoscientific nonsense because there’s no way to test it. There’s only one universe that can be observed, measured, and analyzed. Certain physical constants could have taken on a number of different values when the universe was picoseconds old. Minute variations in some of those would have made it impossible for life as we know it to exist. I take the fine tuning argument as an uninteresting given - the universe was evidently designed and only pseudoscientific infinite multiverse theories can begin to dispute it. -ds


Heh. What a dumbass.

If you remove the last sentence after 'unintersting', his agument makes sense. But at the end, he screwed up.

Some authoritative astrophysicians say that the 'mutliverse' concept is a heresy. According to them, none can claim that several universes could exist because we don't even have a theory of universes. Scientists who invoke this idea want to play God where they don't have the competence to.

I tend to agree.

  
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