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Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 02 2008,23:42   

Are you intolerant towards bigots, FtK?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 02 2008,23:44   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:30)
Just because Dave and OM didn't know the definition of the word certainly shouldn't mean that no one knows the definition.  

IMHO, it's the best definition to use in this case.

I never said otherwise. What I implied was that you knew that people were going to misinterpret your use of the word "condone" by conflating it with the word "advocates" and you used the word hoping to score a cheap rhetorical point.

If you were at all capable of discussing the morality or immorality of bestiality beyond some vague "icky feeling", this never would have happened, FtK.

Sure, it sucks that you got banned at Pharyngula, but look at this way: now you can spend more time with us.

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CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 02 2008,23:46   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 03 2008,00:44)
Sure, it sucks that you got banned at Pharyngula, but look at this way: now you can spend more time with us.

Oh joy.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 02 2008,23:49   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,21:37)
Quote (argystokes @ Jan. 02 2008,23:32)
Quote
Who said anything about intolerance from a legal standpoint????!


Skatje. That's what her whole post was about. You know, the thing that helped set off this whole kerfuffle?

That is not what I was refering to when I stated that PZ was intolerant are you know that.   I've been reading his blog for 3 years and there is not a week that goes by without him displaying horrific intolerance against religion.

It is you who hasn't been following the conversation. It started with PZ writing:

Quote
You're wrong. What we'd allow to run rampant is tolerance.

Tolerance in this sense is the same as your use of the word 'condone,' ie, allow without interference of legal force. I know this because that's what Skatje said, and this statement is meant as a source of agreement with Skatje's comments.

Then you rebutted,
Quote
Baloney.  PZ is horrifically intolerant!  His intolerance of religion and anyone who even questions Darwinism is demonstrated on a *daily* basis at his blog.  I can’t even believe he has the audacity to claim that he’d allow tolerance to “run rampant”.  The gall of that man is unbelievable.


If you were using the same definition of (in)tolerance as PZ, my retort is wholly appropriate. If you are using a different definition of tolerance than PZ (such as using it to mean 'respect'), then I hope it is because you have misread PZ's intentions.

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"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 02 2008,23:54   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 02 2008,23:46)
Quote (Mister DNA @ Jan. 03 2008,00:44)
Sure, it sucks that you got banned at Pharyngula, but look at this way: now you can spend more time with us.

Oh joy.

What can I say? I only use teh Tard on a recreational basis, but I'm severely addicted to Dembski's Friday Meltdowns. FtK keeps the shakes away during those lean times.

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 02 2008,23:55   

Oh, and as for this [QUOTE][quote] (Skatje paragraph on people's relationships with their pets
Quote
That sure sounds like advocating the experience to me.


Well, let's go right to the horse's mouth  :p
Quote
Here's the fact: people tend to read "condone" as the strong opposite of "condemn." Yeah, you can find a definition in the dictionary like "accept," but people (and I'm guilty of this as well) tend to read condone as "support" or "encourage." I do not support bestiality.
(Emphasis in original)

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"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,00:25   

Quote (argystokes @ Jan. 02 2008,23:55)
Oh, and as for this [QUOTE][quote] (Skatje paragraph on people's relationships with their pets
Quote
That sure sounds like advocating the experience to me.


Well, let's go right to the horse's mouth  :p  
Quote
Here's the fact: people tend to read "condone" as the strong opposite of "condemn." Yeah, you can find a definition in the dictionary like "accept," but people (and I'm guilty of this as well) tend to read condone as "support" or "encourage." I do not support bestiality.
(Emphasis in original)

I'm gonna tell PZ you called his daughter a horse.

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,04:53   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:17)
I’m not insinuating that “Darwinists” are immoral.

Sure you are. When you say, for example:
 
Quote
Also, Skatje is the daughter of one of the most ardent religion bashers.  It only makes sense to consider the morals of his followers and offspring when considering what our future might look like without religion.


--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,04:55   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:55)
Good grief, man.  What is wrong with you?  For the atheist, morality evolved along with the brain, the mind, our thoughts and social skills.

Go here, where I report my opinion that this issue is much more complex than you suggest, with important elements that cannot be attributed to evolution.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,04:58   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:30)
Just because Dave and OM didn't know the definition of the word certainly shouldn't mean that no one knows the definition.  

IMHO, it's the best definition to use in this case.

You misrepresentations are legendary.

I simply asked you to support your point with a relevant quote and you did so. I asked where the word "condone" appeared in the text. As it did not, you had to *think* about what part of the text to use to support your case. However, on PZ's blog you had to quote the whole text. Interesting.

And FTK, when you say things like "everything I've said here today is backed up by facts" it rings kinda hollow when typically everything you say normally you claim is backed up by facts and yet you give no backing support to those claims despite repeated requests.

So, FTK, one more time, could you tell me where Walt notes that he's had his work peer-reviewed? If all you said is supported by facts then you can simply tell me the URL where Walt notes he had his work peer-reviewed.

Or admit you were mistaken.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,05:08   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:17)
Skatje went much farther than advocating that it’s okay for it to be legal.  She went as far as stating that this type of relationship with your pet could be very meaningful:

           
Quote
Sexual relationships between humans and animals come as such a shock to people, but it doesn't to me. There can be very deep, meaningful relationships between humans and their pets. Obviously they can't obtain the same level a deep human-to-human relationship, but loving your pets isn't anything unusual. People care for their pets, talk to them, spoil them, feel relaxed in their company, and mourn them when they die. This relationship is so underestimated. Why does it come as a surprise that when someone feels a deep connection to their pet, they might be interesting in doing something more expressive and intimate like we do in human-to-human relationships?


That sure sounds like advocating the experience to me.

IMHO you are misreading this passage. She is here stating that we often have deep and meaningful relationships with our pets, which is true, and that we should not be surprised when those already emotionally intimate relationships become sexual. She is not stating that any such sexual encounters are themselves necessarily deep and meaningful, nor advocating them.  

Her essay could be more clearly written and I think in some respects invites this misunderstanding. It does "sound like" she is advocating these encounters, but with careful reading you can see that she is NOT. Moreover, she has clarified the intent of her essay and that should be that.

For some reason, you just don't seem to be able to leave it there. And the reason is your investment in Sal Cordova, who by repeating his strange assertions in various ways makes it clear that he is NOT being misunderstood.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,06:38   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:30)
Just because Dave and OM didn't know the definition of the word certainly shouldn't mean that no one knows the definition.  

IMHO, it's the best definition to use in this case.

Baloney.

As two different people pointed out, there are (at least) two acceptable definitions. My definition and oldman's definition is just as valid as FtK's definition, we just didn't know how she was using it.  I'm pretty damn sure that I know that word's definition, and probably a lot more definitions of words that FtK misuses all the time. In fact, my conversations with her started with her misuse of the word "random".

Did you get that, FtK? Ironically, this is the first time on this board that two different things can be equally valid, and you missed it.

As for incest, I found that comment right after I posted the last comment. So thanks. As others have mentioned, there is little there to bash Skatje for.

But even more importantly, the example of incest might not be the best one for your purposes of yammering about god-given moral codes vs. evolution. There are good biological reasons why incest is not good for a species, and thus good biological reasons why an aversion to incest might have evolved. Yet in the science book that you choose, your god CONDONES incest at least twice. If you read Genesis, in fact, you will have to conclude that your god DEMANDED incest, since he left the offspring of Adam and Eve no choice but to have intercourse with their siblings.

A rational person, of course, would look at this EVIDENCE and conclude that an evolutionary explanation of an aversion to incest makes more sense than the god-given explanation, which in fact condones it. I am therefore expecting no such response from FtK.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,06:40   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,22:28)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 02 2008,21:45)
Jesus, Lady (Jesus-Lady), you are a freak.  

THERE IS NO EVOLUTIONARY STANDPOINT FROM WHICH MORALS ABOUT HORSE FUCKING OR ANY OTHER KIND OF FUCKING ARE DERIVED

It has nothing to do with it.  it is simple.  You know this, and that makes you a liar.  And a stupid one too, because you can't even keep a straight face while you do it.

 
Quote
THERE IS NO EVOLUTIONARY STANDPOINT FROM WHICH MORALS ABOUT HORSE FUCKING OR ANY OTHER KIND OF FUCKING ARE DERIVED.


From an atheist's stance, evolution certainly does affect morality and how we "fuck".  We evolved from the animal world and morals and "fucking" evolved along with it.  

How dense can you be?  There are all kinds of books written in regard to how morals and religious thought supposedly "evolved".

My GOD Ftk!!! I explained multiple times why that is bullshit, but you simply ignore it. How dense can you be?? Darwinism is science, and science describes phenomenon like morality, it does NOT dictate morality.
I'll repeat myself again, how the hell can we discuss this with you if you miss vital parts of knowledge about evolution, Darwinism and science itself??

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:06   

I have to say that I have always disagreed with the argument that atheism (or darwinism) leads to immorality, because I find such an argument unbiblical. The bible certainly teaches what we would call natural law, that all men have a moral compass. So in a way, just like you would say if you believe evolution is responsible for morality, it is not the lack of a moral compass that is the issue, but the willingness on the part of some to ignore it.

As far as this particular controversy goes, I would agree that it was an egregious example of quote-mining. I read PZ’s daughter’s post as an attempt at a nuanced approach and not as any sort of endorsement. At some level I agree with her—if the crime were truly victimless I wouldn’t care if it were not banned—because I see no call in the NT to make sin (and yes, from a Christian standpoint bestiality is certainly a sin) illegal—you are supposed to avoid sin regardless of whether or not it is a violation of civil laws. But given that the animal is a victim, let’s keep it illegal on that basis.

Furthermore, even if I was brought to a frothing rage by her post, to go after it even via a fair fisking would violate one of my taboos. Call me old fashioned, but even on the internet I think minors should be treated with kid gloves.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:14   

Quote
Call me old fashioned, but even on the internet I think minors should be treated with kid gloves.

Ooo now I really feel insulted :p

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:19   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,05:34)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 02 2008,23:09)
Please tell me what else, for the atheist that is, is true.

also, please tell me just how you know this.  let's start with the above statement.  

How is it, for the atheist, that "morality evolved along with the brain, the mind, our thoughts and social skills"?  Do you mind explaining this?  Is morality like your appendix?  Is it like genital warts, that you contract from others?  Is morality like having ten fingers?  What?  I think you are full of shit, and here is where you get your chance to show how smart you are.

Or not.  But please do tell.  I'm waiting with baited breath, my piranha.

If morality didn't evolve along with everything else in the world, how did our sense of what is right a wrong take root?  

Did God just *poof* your sense of morality into your mind out of no where?

I can't even believe you are questioning me about this.  It's as though some of you have never even thought about this issue.  Of course morality evolved.  There is no way around that fact.

You really don't understand any form of moral thought that doesn't rely on an unchanging deity type system, do you?

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I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:19   

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 03 2008,07:06)
Furthermore, even if I was brought to a frothing rage by her post, to go after it even via a fair fisking would violate one of my taboos. Call me old fashioned, but even on the internet I think minors should be treated with kid gloves.

I was thinking the same thing before I went to her site - then I saw that she is more than capable of defending her position.

However, I have a feeling that her article is ultimately going to reach the wrong audience - it's already being discussed at Vox Day's site - and she's not going to be dealing with poorly reasoned arguments, she's going to be dealing with death threats and rape fantasies.

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:24   

FtK, if you don't understand what can possibly evolve via darwinian mechanisms and what can not, why the fuck should anyone pay any attention to anything you say about anything that has anything to do with any part of 'evolution'?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:25   

Mister DNA,

Right--it is not that she (or other minors) cannot defend their arguments skillfully--it's just that there is something yecch about arguing with a minor the same way as one argues with an adult. With no better line of demarcation, I simply use the imperfect age-eighteen threshold.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:33   

Quote
I read PZ’s daughter’s post as an attempt at a nuanced approach and not as any sort of endorsement. At some level I agree with her—if the crime were truly victimless I wouldn’t care if it were not banned—because I see no call in the NT to make sin (and yes, from a Christian standpoint bestiality is certainly a sin) illegal—you are supposed to avoid sin regardless of whether or not it is a violation of civil laws. But given that the animal is a victim, let’s keep it illegal on that basis.


You know what?  Whether these acts are "banned" or not was never even the point!  I never *once* talked about legality in *any* of my posts in regard to this issue.  Skatje wrote that post on zoophilia in reponse to a post of mine about homosexuals being involved in a huge sex fest.  She commented at *my* blog first, and then wrote a post of her own on the conversation that transpired.  *She* came to my blog.  

This is about morality and behavior, not legality!  Hell, I wouldn't call for these acts to be deemed "illegal"!  As a Christian, I have absolutely *no* right to make someone follow a specific path of morality.  

You are *completely* missing the point.  It's all about personal morality and how we establish our morals.

I've also *never* said that atheists are immoral.  Again, the point is missed.  I'm saying that morals evolved, that they are not absolute, and that they can certainly change as people become more accepting of a variety of behaviors.  There is no moral base in an evolving morality.  

PZ & Skatje framed the argument from a legal standpoint and that is *not* the point and never has been.  They both know that.  Neither did Sal write *anything* about legal rights about personal acts.

I've not read anything by Heddle's post as it's toward the end of this thread, and I'm in a hurry this morning.  So don't start complaining about me not answering other questions.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:40   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,13:33)
I've also *never* said that atheists are immoral.

Don't like us much though, do you?

I mean, you've condemned us, in your own mind at least, to hell. How loving, exactly, is that?

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I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:47   

FtK blithered:

Quote
I'm saying that morals evolved, that they are not absolute, and that they can certainly change as people become more accepting of a variety of behaviors.  There is no moral base in an evolving morality.  


Forgetting this:
Quote
FtK, if you don't understand what can possibly evolve via darwinian mechanisms and what can not, why the fuck should anyone pay any attention to anything you say about anything that has anything to do with any part of 'evolution'?


--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:47   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,08:33)
You are *completely* missing the point.  It's all about personal morality and how we establish our morals.

No.

YOU missed the point.

The point is that Sal is incapable of winning an argument with PZ (or any other grown up) so went after his seventeen year old daughter and quotemined her to insinuate that she was fucking pigs in order to gain cheap rhetorical points in his war on reason and that makes him a low life, amoral bastard and you defend him.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:48   

Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Jan. 03 2008,07:40)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,13:33)
I've also *never* said that atheists are immoral.

Don't like us much though, do you?

I mean, you've condemned us, in your own mind at least, to hell. How loving, exactly, is that?

Excuse me?  How have I *condemned* you to hell?  And, if I didn't like you people, why ON earth would I be here posting and trying my damnedest to try to explain that the religious people that *I* know are nothing like the people you all describe.

You, of all people, should know that I don't dislike you.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,07:49   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,07:33)
Quote
I read PZ’s daughter’s post as an attempt at a nuanced approach and not as any sort of endorsement. At some level I agree with her—if the crime were truly victimless I wouldn’t care if it were not banned—because I see no call in the NT to make sin (and yes, from a Christian standpoint bestiality is certainly a sin) illegal—you are supposed to avoid sin regardless of whether or not it is a violation of civil laws. But given that the animal is a victim, let’s keep it illegal on that basis.


You know what?  Whether these acts are "banned" or not was never even the point!  I never *once* talked about legality in *any* of my posts in regard to this issue.  Skatje wrote that post on zoophilia in reponse to a post of mine about homosexuals being involved in a huge sex fest.  She commented at *my* blog first, and then wrote a post of her own on the conversation that transpired.  *She* came to my blog.  

This is about morality and behavior, not legality!  Hell, I wouldn't call for these acts to be deemed "illegal"!  As a Christian, I have absolutely *no* right to make someone follow a specific path of morality.  

You are *completely* missing the point.  It's all about personal morality and how we establish our morals.

I've also *never* said that atheists are immoral.  Again, the point is missed.  I'm saying that morals evolved, that they are not absolute, and that they can certainly change as people become more accepting of a variety of behaviors.  There is no moral base in an evolving morality.  

PZ & Skatje framed the argument from a legal standpoint and that is *not* the point and never has been.  They both know that.  Neither did Sal write *anything* about legal rights about personal acts.

I've not read anything by Heddle's post as it's toward the end of this thread, and I'm in a hurry this morning.  So don't start complaining about me not answering other questions.

Is it moral to lie by omission?

For example, if somebody claimed something and then refused to provide proof that they were telling the truth when asked?

Is it moral to let a lie stand without correction?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,08:01   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,13:48)
Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Jan. 03 2008,07:40)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,13:33)
I've also *never* said that atheists are immoral.

Don't like us much though, do you?

I mean, you've condemned us, in your own mind at least, to hell. How loving, exactly, is that?

Excuse me?  How have I *condemned* you to hell?  And, if I didn't like you people, why ON earth would I be here posting and trying my damnedest to try to explain that the religious people that *I* know are nothing like the people you all describe.

You, of all people, should know that I don't dislike you.

No, you don't dislike us personally, that's probably true (except certain cases).

However, your faith condems us (all atheists, everywhere) to hell. It says so, right in the bible.

Afterall....



Quote
You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK


--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,08:04   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 03 2008,07:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,08:33)
You are *completely* missing the point.  It's all about personal morality and how we establish our morals.

No.

YOU missed the point.

The point is that Sal is incapable of winning an argument with PZ (or any other grown up) so went after his seventeen year old daughter and quotemined her to insinuate that she was fucking pigs in order to gain cheap rhetorical points in his war on reason and that makes him a low life, amoral bastard and you defend him.

Sick, isn't it, what religious zeal, stupidity, and hubris can do to a person?

So, Sally boy gets an A in a college class and feels the need to boast about it on his website.

I'll bet he'll be using that grade to 'prove' that he is an expert on all things scientific...

Wait - he does that anyway, because he had a music minor ...

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,08:11   

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 03 2008,07:33)
PZ & Skatje framed the argument from a legal standpoint and that is *not* the point and never has been.  They both know that.  Neither did Sal write *anything* about legal rights about personal acts.

This is exactly the problem.

Skatje wrote about legality originally.

Sal and FtK translated legality to morality, as is standard in the biblical frame of reference.

The specific points that Skatje raised were never addressed by Sal or FtK, in their rush to make jokes about the morality of the offspring of "religion bashers". Indeed, it's true; Sal did not write anything about legal rights, But if he was truly responding to the arguments in Skatje's comments he should have.

Instead he used quotemining and innuendo to make a cheap point about his morality. Which speaks volumes about his morality, in a way that is not flattering to him.

FtK, if you could ever actually read, with comprehension, other people's writings and respond to their words rather than the words you wish they had written from their evil atheistic darwinian perspective, you could play a big role in your own education. In this instance, if you would have made an effort to understand Skatje's points, which were based on a legal (not moral) viewpoint, you would not have sicced Sal on her, and he would not have followed your lead down his own particular toilet.

There's a lesson here, but I doubt you can see it, since it was written by someone with an evil atheistic darwinian perspective. I can't wait to see how you will twist it.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,08:16   

Hmm.  Well, Sal gave a hat-tip to FtK.  Did he follow this interaction on your blog, or did you email him about it?

If its email, why dont you take screen shots, with dates, of your email exchange with Sal and we can all see how it was about 'personal morality and how we establish our morals' and not getting cheap points against Skatje.

Not that that will entirely help you, as 'personal morality' makes no sense when applied to Skatje's post... Im just trying to help you out, FtK, as your actions the past couple of days have gone well past disgusting, and are nearing unforgivable.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2008,08:22   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 03 2008,04:53)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 02 2008,23:17)
I’m not insinuating that “Darwinists” are immoral.

Sure you are. When you say, for example:
     
Quote
Also, Skatje is the daughter of one of the most ardent religion bashers.  It only makes sense to consider the morals of his followers and offspring when considering what our future might look like without religion.

How is that stating that Darwinists are immoral?  Do you lump all Darwinists in a big category like you do "creationists"?  

I'm saying that, within an evolving world, there are no moral absolutes.  Morality is relative.  The acts that Skatje condones can become morally acceptable because there is no reason for them not to unless someone else is hurt in the act.  Do what you want as long as you don't think it's hurting someone else.  Even that moral rule evolved through evolution.

That does not mean that all atheists would become involved in those actions or even approve of them.  Everyone has their own reasons for why they would or would not participate in such behavior.  There is no particular base for morality, but rather our morality is based on present social situations, and it is relative, evolving, and certainly not absolute.

Ted Haggard was involved in immoral behavior *in my book*.  He was a Christian, and most atheists recognized that, from a Christian perspective, he was living immorally due to his involvement in homosexuality and having sex with someone other than his spouse.  Yet, from the atheist standpoint, the argument was not against morality, but rather hypocrisy.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
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