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  Topic: The Guts/Nelson Alonso Thread, From Telic Thoughts, With Love< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:26   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,07:24)
     
Quote

But when I was on Telic Thoughts and I asked you for your position, you said "I've stated it many times already, it's all here" and refused to be specific.

People who press you on the point get banned.

More lies. In fact no one has asked me for my position, much less have been banned for it. When will the lies stop?

But have they been "barred"? I guess the Memory Hole is inoperative or people could see the dastardly post that led to my being banned barred from the thread.

For the record, I have asked for your position on the 3….2….1….”Rabbit Thread. I crosslinked back here—with a warning.

Quote
Zachriel: By the way, I just noticed the discussion on AtBC's Telic Thoughts thread (Warning PG13: juvenile taunts, sexual innuendo, crude language, some partial nudity, and persistent bad taste).

Crude language: "your" damn this board sucks.

Juvenile taunts: My position is that you're a moron.

Sexual innuendo: I'm hotter than that actually.

Some partial nudity: I found it:

Persistent bad taste: No thats me conceding that you're a retard.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:27   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:23)
Quote

gutless otherwise provides evidence that it can carry on a worthwhile discussion


lol, you're in the wrong place. This is a turd throwing fest, if you want meaningful discussion, go elsewhere. AE isn't called "the swamp" by pretty much everyone for nothing.

Yet here you are, and you appear to be throwing the most turds.

I guess you must like throwing turds instead of having a worthwhile discussion.

Your "technical blogs" appear to support that position.

If you want meaningful discussion, please pick a topic. There will be some who will oblige, no doubt, on any topic you choose to pick.

Do it, or are you a coward? All mouth? Any trouser there?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:29   

Zachriel writes:
Quote

But have they been "barred"? I guess the Memory Hole is inoperative or people could see the dastardly post that led to my being banned barred from the thread.


Zach, your problem is that you can't handle logic and evidence, otherwise you wouldn't write such tripe. In fact, if you would look at the memory hole, you'll see your thread derailing post in all it's glory. How sad :(

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:33   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:29)
your problem is that you can't handle logic and evidence,

You've yet to prove otherwise yourself, failing to raise yourself above the level of a angry 10 year old throwing insults about.

Pick a topic.

Have a debate.

Forget for a moment that you are an internet sensation, consider the fact that many people have no idea who you are and their first impression of you is from this thread. I imagine the number of actual real life scientists is considerably higher here then you are used to and if you play your cards right you might even learn something.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:36   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:03)
Wel I offered my writings and even showed where you can find them, but through it all, and you look back through all these pages, all you find is deception on the part of the denizens of AE, not a single one refutes anything I have written on TT. Tell me how does that not show that you are all stupid? I mean come on.

Quote
all you find is deception on the part of the denizens of AE, not a single one refutes anything I have written on TT.

And you think that people will believe that solely on the basis of your say-so do you?

Sure, you call it deception, I call it shining a light onto your tactics.

I can see why you might like it to stop and how it's been needling you for a while now until it's got to this point.

Are you drunk Guts? Will you regret this in the morning?

No edit button for you!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:42   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:23)
Quote

gutless otherwise provides evidence that it can carry on a worthwhile discussion


lol, you're in the wrong place. This is a turd throwing fest, if you want meaningful discussion, go elsewhere. AE isn't called "the swamp" by pretty much everyone for nothing.

Well, then you win. You seem to be the owner/producer of the largest pile of turds here. And you haven't even linked to your "many technical blogs" yet!

Next.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,09:26   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:29)
Zachriel writes:
   
Quote

But have they been "barred"? I guess the Memory Hole is inoperative or people could see the dastardly post that led to my being banned barred from the thread.

Zach, your problem is that you can't handle logic and evidence, otherwise you wouldn't write such tripe. In fact, if you would look at the memory hole, you'll see your thread derailing post in all it's glory. How sad :(

 
Quote
Zachriel: I looked for a link on the main page called "Memory Hole" and it was empty.

I appreciate that. Now, everyone can determine for themselves that there was nothing in my comment that deserved banning barring, by any reasonable reading.

Guts: But this is what you do Zach everytime you are proven wrong, you back peddle.

This statement just tickles me. Heaven forbid someone admit error or try to clarify a misstatement.

I'm still smarting from when Hermagoras smacked me down for mixing my Greek and Latin roots.



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You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,09:30   

Quote
Raevmo Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:33 pm Guts:

Why do anti-ID activists here, like Raevmo, feel the need to act like spoiled retarded children? It blows my mind.

Excuse me? I just mentioned that Shubin's claim to fame was his discovery of Tiktaalik. I see you have deleted that post. Why is that?


Comment by Raevmo — July 5, 2008 @ 7:33 pm
Guts Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:36 pm I just went through this with Zachriel. I already provided a link to that, the topic is not Shubin's discovery, the topic is well beyond Shubin's discovery.


Comment by Guts — July 5, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
steve Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:44 pm Speaking of Zachriel, why was he covertly banned? That kind of behavior flies at Uncommon Descent, but I thought people here had some ethics.


Comment by steve — July 5, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
Guts Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:47 pm he wasn't banned. he was barred from this thread.


Comment by Guts — July 5, 2008 @ 7:47 pm


--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,09:38   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,02:23)
I'll post another example of deception, this time from steve:

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y110698

He claims that we moderated his comment, and yet here it is on the live site:

http://telicthoughts.com/aiguys-computer/#comment-193776

When one goes to that link here on AtBC, one finds Steve saying that his comment was in a moderation queue, meaning it did not simply appear on the site as and when submitted. It does not claim that the comment was never published, so showing the comment was published is precisely irrelevant to Steve's comment.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:01   

Quote
Guts: I didnt ban you at all, I simply sent an off topic comment to the memory hole. And prevented you from doing it again. This is regularly done here and needs no explanation.


All my scribbling about handwaving and netiquette and handwaving and respect and chronicling, and more handwaving and how to make an argument and why. Dozens of comments, hours of work (well minutes anyway). All summarized by a master in a handful of poetic words.

Quote
olegt: "Shut up," he explained.




--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:06   

I have been back through TT's list of Guts' postings. Quiet Sunday afternoon here.

The fact that he refuses to point to any of his 'technical blogs' for discussion about how they support ID is that none of them do. There's stuff snipped from elsewhere and a "How about that then!", and plenty of "If this supports x, it's interesting". Rarely is any connection explicitly made, rarely is there anything that can be argued about without asking for more information.

When he does dare to actually make a statement, for example that snake venom evolution is clearly "not standard", and then backs it up with "Huh? Do you have any questions? feel free to ask.", he gets Nick Matzke asking "How is venom evolution far from 'standard'?". Guts' answer: "Read the links."

The thread's still there for anyone who wants to see how it develops, although -- spoiler -- it won't take a path unfamiliar to anyone who's read this far on this one.

Elsewhere, hrun comes a cropper when he asks why convergent evolution is better evidence for front-loading than it is for standard evolutionary biology. Guts having refused to answer the question three times except by saying "It's all answered elsewhere", (hrun gallantly tries to ascertain where and how, thus using up the rest of his lives), he finally deals with the question thusly:"I explained it , twice, in the misconceptions thread, in my first post and linked to an essay about it. You ignored all three attempts. All you're doing is repeating yourself. It doesn't seem like you're actually asking questions, it seems like you're trolling."

To be fair, guts isn't the only one who likes to argue through unexplained co-option where inference is unclear and implications arguable. His use of multiple layers of indirection and wooly definitions, treating those who attempt to clarify his position as idiots and trolls, is also familiar. Although I do think he has a useful innovation in his 'three strikes and you're out' policy; it's rather like the early moves in Minesweeper, but on a board entirely populated by single-mine squares.

Entire academic careers have built on such things (I'm looking at you, po-mo). They never amount to much. They're cancerous growths whose principle purpose is to consume resources, resist attack and grow without care for good or harm done to the rest of the organism. While science has a rather iffy immune system in the short term and on the small scale, it operates very effectively over periods of generations and in the larger context.

Unless it's made illegal.

R

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:25   



You'll need those Guts, you've been served.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Frostman



Posts: 29
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:25   

Nelson Alonso aka Guts:
Quote
Again this is just a sample of the level of deception here.

I see nothing unethical about James Randi sending in posers to expose huckster faith healers like Peter Popoff and his ilk.  Popoff might claim, "But they deceived me, it is they who are unethical!"  I'll let you decide that one: do you support the public's right to be informed of fraud, or do you support Popoff's right to not be deceived?  Considering that he takes millions from the poor, the elderly, and the sick, the answer should be clear.

Likewise I support individuals misrepresenting themselves to a self-proclaimed psychic in order to expose the psychic as a fraud.  The public's right to be informed trumps the con artist's right to not be conned.

Nelson Alonso, I have plainly documented your unethical behavior at Telic Thoughts on this forum, notably here and in lengthy detail here: Nelson Alonso.  Your conduct shown therein is indefensible, and indeed you have not defended it.  My last post to Telic Thoughts was not mere random turd-throwing, as you are want to do here.  It had a purpose: to expose you.  In it I gave links to my posts here.  The public has a right to be informed of the unethical conduct flourishing at Telic Thoughts.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:51   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,05:10)
I'll debate any of you any time any day, I've been doing it for years. Notice how steve stays clear away from any of my technical blogs. It's because he's scientifically illiterate.

What I look for in a moderator is an ability to deal with people socially using the written word.

Steve has that.

And, having interacted with for years and having met Steve in person, I can testify that the claim of "scientific illiteracy" is a bogus canard, too.

"Doing it for years"... I had a look back at the archives, and found this terminal post in an exchange of ours from 2000.

As for scientific acumen, one should not confuse scientific knowledge with an inability to take a point and copious amounts of spare time to endlessly reply repeating the initial confusion.

 
Quote

Argumentum ad Assertion Repetitio ad Nauseam
   (np) 1. Argument premised on the basis that any assertion repeated often enough is, perforce, true. This rhetorical mode is a frequent companion of Argumentum ad CAPSLOCK, or denigrations of correspondents. There exists great variability in the frequency and timing of the repetitions.


Discussions should have beginnings, middles, and ends. Someone who declares victory simply because they do not tire of repeating themselves isn't proving anything except the possibility of a perseverative disorder.

 
Quote

Continuous perseveration (inappropriate prolonged continuation and repetition of a current behaviour)


Nelson might ask why I am not a participant at his "technical blogs". I'll take the complementary position to that Nelson laid out back in 2000 about me:

 
Quote

When you have responded to the same criticism over and over again, and when they refuse to respond to other IDers , but just respond to Dembski, then you kinda get the feeling that there is something more going on. Let Wesley and Rich publish their material in the forums Dembski provided, then they will be taken seriously. Otherwise, their motivation is obvious.


Since then, I have been published in the peer-reviewed journal Biology and Philosophy and have two book chapters to my credit on IDC. A further paper should be out in another journal within the year. Since Nelson claimed I was ignorable until published, I'll treat him to a helping of the same standard.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:00   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ July 06 2008,06:04)
I don't follow TT, Guts, have never read your posts nor your blogs, and have no familiarity with your stance in this debate. So I won't comment on any of that.

I can say, as a meta comment based upon the sample of the last few pages: you come across as an asshole.

As someone who has followed TT for a couple of years, I can say that RB's impression of Guts is quite accurate.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:11   

What's Telic Tards stance on 'moderation'?
Easier to post than here or less?
How many biologists do they have in their line up?
How does 'arbitrarily rank in 4 dimensions, aggregate and discuss' count as science?

edited.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:25   

Howdy all,


Wow.  How many pages of throwing accusations and general sniping is on this thread?  All for what?

What I don't understand is how come people want to get Guts to come out to this board when he has what he posted on his own board?  What's the fear in that?  As for the name calling, why do so many on this board come on out to insult instead of keeping quiet and letting a person speak?  I know I had issues when I was trying to discuss things around here.  All you want to do is hitting back at those who are being incredibly disrespectful.

Is that what the evolutionist, er sorry Lou, Evil Nazi Evilutionist agenda is all about?  Shout someone down and have them stop even trying?

One last thing and this is to Guts.  I have registered on the TT board and I even tried to post something this morning.  It was never posted it concerns the posts between Zach, olegt and yourself.  When I posted it, I got a message saying that it was, "Under Moderator Review".  How long does it take to see a posting up on the board?


Thanks


PS, I hope everyone's 4th was better than mine.  All it did was rain.  Yeah, having 3 kids of your own and a bunch of relatives kids out by the beach in a single wide trailer (no, it's not our home thank you) is no fun.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:28   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,05:47)
I'm not the one that came here and started a mindless thread to attack my website, if you have something substantive to say against anything write, say it. So far, I only see faggotry, which is pathetic.

Nelson, your mom told you to get your ass out of her basement and get a job. You're an embarrassment.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:29   

Quote (lcd @ July 06 2008,12:25)
Wow.  How many pages of throwing accusations and general sniping is on this thread?  All for what?

The amazing thing is everyone can see them and discuss their merits. They're not vanished away somewhere. Personally, I wont register at Telic Tards because I doubt any of my posts would get through.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:33   

Quote (lcd @ July 06 2008,10:25)
Howdy all,


Wow.  How many pages of throwing accusations and general sniping is on this thread?  All for what?

What I don't understand is how come people want to get Guts to come out to this board when he has what he posted on his own board?  What's the fear in that?  As for the name calling, why do so many on this board come on out to insult instead of keeping quiet and letting a person speak?  I know I had issues when I was trying to discuss things around here.  All you want to do is hitting back at those who are being incredibly disrespectful.

Is that what the evolutionist, er sorry Lou, Evil Nazi Evilutionist agenda is all about?  Shout someone down and have them stop even trying?

One last thing and this is to Guts.  I have registered on the TT board and I even tried to post something this morning.  It was never posted it concerns the posts between Zach, olegt and yourself.  When I posted it, I got a message saying that it was, "Under Moderator Review".  How long does it take to see a posting up on the board?


Thanks


PS, I hope everyone's 4th was better than mine.  All it did was rain.  Yeah, having 3 kids of your own and a bunch of relatives kids out by the beach in a single wide trailer (no, it's not our home thank you) is no fun.

LCD, I assume this is your coy way of admitting you're never going to answer the backed up questions on the other thread?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:36   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 06 2008,12:28)
Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,05:47)
I'm not the one that came here and started a mindless thread to attack my website, if you have something substantive to say against anything write, say it. So far, I only see faggotry, which is pathetic.

Nelson, your mom told you to get your ass out of her basement and get a job. You're an embarrassment.

Faggotry? Oh hark, the bigot.

Guts, you're a shoitehawk. simple as.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:36   

Who is this "guts" person? Are they on drugs?

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:40   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 06 2008,10:36)
Who is this "guts" person? Are they on drugs?

Nah, he's just intoxicated with his own stupidity.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:04   

Quote (lcd @ July 06 2008,12:25)
As for the name calling, why do so many on this board come on out to insult instead of keeping quiet and letting a person speak?  I know I had issues when I was trying to discuss things around here.  All you want to do is hitting back at those who are being incredibly disrespectful.

lcd

Perhaps you could read this thread again, starting with Guts' first postings... When did the name-calling start? Frankly, given the grade-school level of his comments here, I think an objective observer would say that most of the regulars exhibited remarkable restraint.

But let's not just take my word for it. Let's go to the evidence.

===

Guts first reply on this thread, after posting three without a response: "You're obviously scientifically illiterate."

second reply: "I'll post another example of deception" (later shown by Wes to not be an example of deception after all).

third reply: "It'll be fun excersize (sic) for the comming (sic) weeks to continue to point out just how deceptive the denizens of AE can be"

fourth reply: "You guys should get out of the dark ages, these board functions suck"

After a non-abusive reply from Dr.GH, a fifth reply: "you're nothing but an alcoholic, so you're not in any way credible."

sixth and seventh reply, all with no intervening comments by anyone else: "What with your ultra darwinist beliefs, its pathetic." "piece of shit board. you guys must be dumbasses"

after a non-abusive comment by dnmlthr, this response: "I have more evidence for my position than you have for the existence of your own brain. Please"

Choice insults from some of his other 90 posts

"You don't know my position? That's pathetic, you're completely ignorant and yet you let this thread continue, pathetic."

"What a waste of brain cells you are."

"you are weak in terms of intellectual debate."
(note the intellectual content of his comments to this point...)

"How about we debate your complete and utter Incompetence ? That seems like a good debate."

"Do you think your mother would be proud of something like that?"

"You're a moron and you should realize this undisputable (sic) fact of life."

"No thats (sic) me conceding that you're a retard."

"No i'm (sic) trying to provoke actual thought, which is absent here. No one knows my position? Are you friggin kidding me? This thread is pages and pages long, and accusations abound, but no one knows my position? How batshit insane is that. I could write a book on it."

"Because this thread is obviously not about evidence or logic, it's about who can throw the best turd."


Etc.
===

In 90 comments he merely bloviated, despite several polite requests to state a position and have a real intellectual debate. He hurled insults from the very beginning. What part of that makes you proud to be associated with his side?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:09   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 06 2008,12:33)
LCD, I assume this is your coy way of admitting you're never going to answer the backed up questions on the other thread?

No, that would be incorrect.


The stuff is not easy.  It is and I'm reluctant to admit it harder than I thought.  I haven't been working on it this weekend because I thought I'd be in the surf and having some fun.

One thing though.  I can't help but note what I'd call a double standard here.  First, Newton came up with "Classical Physics".  Now science took that as truth for what, 300 years?  Then we had Relativity.  Now it's Quantum Physics.  So what about GUT?  I keep reading where they say it exists but nobody can find it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but Dembski's EF seems to be a great start, the "Classical Theory" also known as the first step.  Why must ID be perfect the first time when mainstream science still hasn't gotten it right?

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:10   

Albatrossity: Actually, I think he had 20-30 or so posts under his belt prior to his latest visit, bringing his latest spree to 60-70 or so.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:22   

Quote (lcd @ July 06 2008,19:09)

One thing though.  I can't help but note what I'd call a double standard here.  First, Newton came up with "Classical Physics".  Now science took that as truth for what, 300 years?  Then we had Relativity.  Now it's Quantum Physics.  So what about GUT?  I keep reading where they say it exists but nobody can find it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but Dembski's EF seems to be a great start, the "Classical Theory" also known as the first step.  Why must ID be perfect the first time when mainstream science still hasn't gotten it right?

lcd: Classical physics is still usable, more than anything else it's a matter of scale. Neither relativity nor QM have replaced newtonian physics for day-to-day* stuff that goes on on the surface of the planet. As for grand unified theories, work is being done, but who knows where it will lead?

The EF, on the other hand, has yet to produce any testable predictions at all.

Edit:
Contrast that with the theory that they're not trying to augment (see examples above) but completely supplant, which is in use every single day all across the globe.
End of edit.

* I'm sure someone around here uses both on a daily basis, but you get my point.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:25   

Quote (lcd @ July 06 2008,13:09)
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but Dembski's EF seems to be a great start, the "Classical Theory" also known as the first step.  Why must ID be perfect the first time when mainstream science still hasn't gotten it right?

Strawman. Who said it had to be perfect?  It just has to work as advertised, and lead to predictive hypotheses that can lead to experiments that can generate more support for the notion.

That's where ID fails. The EF has not been demonstrated to work on any biological system, it leads to no predictive hypotheses or experiments, and thus there has been no experimental support.

Furthermore, when you say that "mainstream science still hasn't gotten it right" you are ignoring the fact that science is always provisional. Old theories get replaced by new ones IF the evidence supports the new theory, and IF the new theory has greater explanatory power. In many cases the old theory still has some value as well (your example of classical physics is a good one in that regard).


If you think that ID has greater explanatory power, it is your responsibility to show us the evidence for that. If you do so, it will be a first, since Dembski, Behe, Wells and their ilk have demonstrated nothing of the sort.

If you want to call this response a "flame", then go ahead. But it seems pretty civil to me.

ps - thanks, dnmlthr, for the correction. I hadn't run across his posts before, and it sure seemed like he ran up 90 posts last night!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:31   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ July 06 2008,14:04)
 
Quote (lcd @ July 06 2008,12:25)
As for the name calling, why do so many on this board come on out to insult instead of keeping quiet and letting a person speak?  I know I had issues when I was trying to discuss things around here.  All you want to do is hitting back at those who are being incredibly disrespectful.

lcd

Perhaps you could read this thread again, starting with Guts' first postings... When did the name-calling start? Frankly, given the grade-school level of his comments here, I think an objective observer would say that most of the regulars exhibited remarkable restraint.

But let's not just take my word for it. Let's go to the evidence.

===

Guts first reply on this thread, after posting three without a response: "You're obviously scientifically illiterate."

second reply: "I'll post another example of deception" (later shown by Wes to not be an example of deception after all).

third reply: "It'll be fun excersize (sic) for the comming (sic) weeks to continue to point out just how deceptive the denizens of AE can be"

fourth reply: "You guys should get out of the dark ages, these board functions suck"

After a non-abusive reply from Dr.GH, a fifth reply: "you're nothing but an alcoholic, so you're not in any way credible."

sixth and seventh reply, all with no intervening comments by anyone else: "What with your ultra darwinist beliefs, its pathetic." "piece of shit board. you guys must be dumbasses"

after a non-abusive comment by dnmlthr, this response: "I have more evidence for my position than you have for the existence of your own brain. Please"

Choice insults from some of his other 90 posts

"You don't know my position? That's pathetic, you're completely ignorant and yet you let this thread continue, pathetic."

"What a waste of brain cells you are."

"you are weak in terms of intellectual debate."
(note the intellectual content of his comments to this point...)

"How about we debate your complete and utter Incompetence ? That seems like a good debate."

"Do you think your mother would be proud of something like that?"

"You're a moron and you should realize this undisputable (sic) fact of life."

"No thats (sic) me conceding that you're a retard."

"No i'm (sic) trying to provoke actual thought, which is absent here. No one knows my position? Are you friggin kidding me? This thread is pages and pages long, and accusations abound, but no one knows my position? How batshit insane is that. I could write a book on it."

"Because this thread is obviously not about evidence or logic, it's about who can throw the best turd."


Etc.
===

In 90 comments he merely bloviated, despite several polite requests to state a position and have a real intellectual debate. He hurled insults from the very beginning. What part of that makes you proud to be associated with his side?


Guts.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,13:32   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 06 2008,06:45)
Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,05:43)
refuting, dam you dumbasses can't even implement a simple edit function. How dumb is that?

You don't get edit till you have shown you can be trusted not to go back and delete your own comments when they become an embarrassment to you.

...and given what I've seen to that point in this thread, I wouldn't suggest anyone hold their breath on that edit button.

Looks like y'all are having some fun.  I can't believe none of you biatches dropped me an email...

:p

Edited because I can.

Edited by Lou FCD on July 06 2008,14:33

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
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