Joined: Jan. 2006
|Quote (Louis @ Nov. 25 2011,04:08)|
|Quote (BWE @ Nov. 25 2011,05:58)|
|Quote (Louis @ Nov. 24 2011,17:44)|
|Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 24 2011,19:09)|
True, no-one flies airplanes into buildings in the name of godlessness. So far.
So far? Really? Tell me how you get from ATHEISM, a lack of belief in a deity, to flying planes into buildings. I can draw you a line from fundamentalist christianity, or extremist islam, or extreme revolutionary communism to an act like this (hell, a few hours on google and I could probably find you examples), but atheism. I don't see it. Not because I'm an atheist, but because there's nothing there to base such a decision on. You can get specific jihadist interpretations of the qu'ran, or violent interpretations of the bible, but atheism lacks anything remotely like this.
I can see how people who are also atheists could do nasty things, plenty of evidence for that, but nasty acts specifically derived from atheism? Nope. That reduces to the theist claims that atheists lack morals etc, which are rank nonsense.
|Anyway, I'm not about to go frothing lunatic fanatic nutbar on this particular issue. :-)|
I think I've sailed that ship!
Louis, i get to flying planes into buildings from thinking that i am right and the guy in the building is wrong. Has nothing to do with where the idea came from. Religion just has a history of well defined us and them delineations.
Seems to me that pz is using the very same playbook.
And, in terms of nasty acts in the name of atheism, you're working awefully hard to rationalize one right now. Think about that for a minute before you respond.
Ok then. I think you're wrong. Very wrong. Seriously wrong.
Look out your window. Keep looking until a plane appears with me at the controls.
I'd get some beers in, it could be a long wait.
The line from religious ideas and texts to things like planes crashing into buildings exists. It is documented, it is advocated by the ideas contained in those religions. People deliberately cherry pick specific religious ideas to make a case for their violence. I am saying it is impossible to do that with atheism. Atheism is a lack of a belief in a deity or deities. It may even go further in some cases and be active disbelief in a deity or deities. That's IT. Period. Full stop. The fat lady has sung. Elvis has left the building.
Religions have more to them than this, there are more things that make a Christian a Christian or a Muslim a Muslim. Their theism is insufficient. There is no "atheist religion", no text one must adhere to, no doctrine one must subscribe to. I vehemently disagree with your ludicrous claim that pressing CTRL P at Pharyngula with get me an atheist bible. Take for example the feminist content at Pharyngula. That's mostly from a specific school of feminism. Where's that contained in a lack of belief in deities? Do I have to subscribe to every aspect of that school of feminism in your Pharyngulite atheist bible? I hope not because I don't.
I chose that as an example because it is OBVIOUSLY ridiculous. You, and PZ, are attaching a whole slew of things to atheism that aren't there. I disagree with him and I disagree with you. The disagreement I have with him is pretty simple. He claims that there is more to being an atheist than being a "dictionary atheist". I disagree, that's the only requirement. Where I agree with him is that as people we should do more than merely assert our dictionary atheism. We should also stand up for positive rationality and values. But that's a different dance for a different partner. It's not encompassed in atheism.
P.S. If it seems this way to you, then perhaps you aren't looking hard enough. Ever consider that? Perhaps you're working awfully hard to rationalise your dislike of something. Think about it for a minute before you respond.
You forgot the step before the part where u post. Louis, i respect your thinking and your honesty in addressing your own arguments just as critically as those you are dissecting. This time you are not understanding your own arguments and the reason is that you are accepting the doctrines of atheism as truth and therefore not even seeing the possibility of criticizkng an element of your own arguments.
The argument that god or religion is what drives people to kill is false. There has to be someone who needs killing first.
The idea that there is someone who needs killing has nothing to do with religion except tangentially. It has to do with people who believe the wrong truths.
So, does gelato guy believe the wrong truth? Does pz?
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far
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