RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (11) < [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... >   
  Topic: The official Post Atheism Movement starts now< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2011,10:23   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 24 2011,14:26)

My issue is simple. This:

is not not in the same ballpark as this:

...[it] ain't the same fucking ball park. It ain't the same league. It ain't even the same fucking sport.

Oh wait, let me guess, *I'm* the bad guy for asking for substance from you and not faltering in the face of confrontation.

Oh, heavens no.  You aren't a bad guy, you are a hero of the fucking cause.  You have given a handful of discussion board participants a sound thrashing. Now run along and get your martyr merit badge. You have certainly earned it. I am quite sure the rest of the College of Cardinals Order of Molly will forgive your earlier heresy about letting a thousand flowers bloom.

You may think you are smart and perceptive, Louis. And I am sure within your real life sphere of activity, you are.*  But, I am here to tell you that you overestimate yourself. You aren't smart enough to have figured out how to monetize your anger.  Nor perceptive enough to see that PZ has.

When Gelato Guy prostrated himself publicly to apologize (and no doubt earning the righteous** anger of many of his Christian brethren), PZ was presented with a teachable moment.  Instead of addressing the person that actually reached out to him, he turned and played to the crowd.

This gets a specific response.

1) I didn't ask for or want an Order of Molly award. I'm chuffed people though some shite I spewed onto the web was worth something, but it's meaningless. As I said, it won't change anything. Nor should it. You have more of a problem with it than I do. It is an irrelevance. Perhaps a funny one, an in joke, but an irrelevance.

I disagree with who I disagree with. Period. I'm viciously burning bridges here right this second because I vehemently disagree. And guess what? I'm not sure I care, I'll burn bridges there too (have in the past) because I vehemently disagree with something or someone. Where are my comments asking for back pats on Pharyngula? Erm nowhere. Where are my rallies of support being held aloft by Pharygulite hoardes? No where. The reason I disagree with you is because I disagree with your content free whining about genuine matters of serious principle. You, and people like you are shitty allies. In exactly the manner MLK describes you are as much of a roadblock to a more equitable society as the genuine bigots. Should you be above criticism because you're sort of supposedly maybe on my side about some things? Hell *I'm* not above criticism, why should you get a free pass?

So nice straw man, nice fiction. No dice.

2) PZ probably has monetised his anger. And? Does this mean any specific thing he says is incorrect? You claim I lack perception when you miss the fact that I know but don't care. If PZ makes some bucks stirring ire from some people, great. IF that's what he is doing. Now I think some days it is, some days it isn't. But again, are women's rights somehow unimportant? Is theistic privilege somehow unimportant? No! And yet your complaint is with the medium, the messenger not with the actual substance. You cannot criticise the message so you go after the messenger. Yet more data in favour of the "shitty ally hypothesis".

Substance free again, and a complete red herring.

3) Keyboard warrior does not equal being hosed by the police. You and I agree. I don't think I'm in either category, a fact you repeatedly seem to miss. I make no claim to activism other than the real life stuff I do, and I've yet to be hosed so it's pretty weak sauce. You are arguing with a straw man of your own confection.

Are people not free to discuss things on the net? It isn't me claiming this stuff is activism and mistaking it for important. It isn't. It can lead to important things (see the organisation for the Arab Spring as one example), but it isn't in and of itself important. What motivates me is understanding stuff, one part of that is dialectics, arguing, discussion, dialogue. What pisses me off the most here is the number of voices suppressing dialogue, and YES Pharyngula contains those voices.

So what's the problem with discussing these things? Even passionately? It's a part of the process. Is it the whole process? No of course not, but then no one but you is claiming it is. It's YOUR uncorrectable straw man, you deal with it.

Straw man two!

4) I could not care less about Gelato Guy. The incident itself is pretty laughable. A guy lost his rag at hearing something he didn't like and acted like a moron. Big whoop. He apologised for acting like a moron. Great. Is his apology sincere? No clue. Does he realise the context and extent of what he did? No idea, does it matter?

Read the rest of the post of PZ's, he's barely having a crack at this Gelato Guy, he's merely said he's not accepting his apology. Personally I'm in two minds. I see the principle, but someone who lives by principles alone starves fast. My view is I'd have to know the guy better, and since I never am going to, I'll suspend judgement. The people PZ is having a go at is people like you. People who whatever happens continually apologise for the wrongs of others and try to avoid confrontation. He's having a go at the shitty allies. And good on him! There are far more shitty allies out there than genuine enemies, if even genuine enemies exist. And what PZ does is a valid tactic, it does stir the pot and highlight issues. Is it the only tactic? Nope. Do I always like it? Nope. Demagoguery has its place in the thousand flowers.

5) I have yet to give any message board participants a sound thrashing. I charge by the hour for that anyway.

You are under a series of illusions that I think this {waves hands all around} matters. I don't. Well, I don't think it is all that matters. It has some small value, debate, discussion, dialogue, via ANY medium can change minds, can inform, enlighten. It can shift little Overton Windows. Is it the totality of activism of any kind? Of course it bloody isn't and no one, least of all me has said it does. PZ doesn't think it matters, ask him, you'll get the same answer. What does matter is motivating people to act, organising and acting themselves after the discussions. Nothing can change without that. Would I prefer the arguments, once won, were settled forever? Of course. Would I prefer never to have to revisit the same tired old shite time and again? Of course. But I'll never get the chance, people die, people are born, so the struggle to change things continues. I have no illusions that an isolated message board post with change anything, but an ongoing discussion or series of discussions? This is how we have the Royal Society and every major European learned society. This is how trade unions formed, how political parties formed and operate. From tiny seeds greater things can grow. It's not me mistakes the seed for the tree, it's you.

So what I have from you again is this: a couple of straw men, a red herring and a persistent misunderstanding of someone else's goals and ideas. A misunderstanding that you persist in post-correction. All of this done without argument, done without substance. No reason, no logic, just your own prejudices and caricatures vomited forth onto the screen. Why should anyone take your complaints seriously?



  315 replies since Nov. 23 2011,18:52 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (11) < [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... >   

Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]