Joined: Sep. 2006
|aiguy: The references I produced are sufficient to back up my point: simple agents following fixed rules give rise to complex designs and problem-solving behaviors. If you have other references that contradict that point, it behooves you to produce the citation.|
|Guts: Where stigermy comes in the little big bang is the Daubing reflex, but the little big bang is more than just the Daubing reflex. "Stigermy alone is not sufficient for the little big bang, though." The extended organism: the physiology of animal-built structures By J. Scott Turner p. 189|
That doesn't support Guts' position. If you read the text, there is a 2nd simple interaction. The termites send out a chemical alert of a breach to the mound. (Soldiers may use vibratory alerts.) Though slower than the local action of stigmergy, each termite amplifies the chemical alert until large numbers of termites are involved — a swarm. In other words, "simple agents following fixed rules give rise to complex designs and problem-solving behaviors."
As aiguy certainly knows, this sort of emergent complexity is easy to simulate. Of course, that isn't necessary to his point. It's enough to show that mound-building itself, certainly a complex structure, is due to following simple fixed rules by the individual agents.
Aiguy has done a good job of making his point. The discussion of dogs is pretty interesting. (The following comments are snipped out of context, but give the general idea.)
|aiguy: As for dogs, they obviously abstract (e.g. they form an abstraction of "doggy door", and they can identify instances of this abstraction despite significant differences in shape, size, construction, materials, placement etc.) |
|fifth monarchy man: It's almost as if you determine an animal to be intellegent by what it does. |
|fifth monarchy man: The issue is that you claim that you only want a clear definition of intelligence yet demonstrate that what you really want is to put it to the fundies. |
Fifth monarchy man is becoming somewhat frustrated, but his comment demonstrates he understands people as little as he understands dogs. Aiguy is obviously interested in the nature of intelligence, and has thought about it in some detail, and is aware of many of the pitfalls that fifth monarchy man is falling into.
The struggle against ignorance is to the end of time. But it is said that if you die in tard, you will be reborn in Tardhalla.