Joined: Jan. 2006
|Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 14 2007,14:11)|
|Yes, I agree, the loop persists. It does all come down to what knowledge is and it seems we all have our own definitions there.|
No!! The definitions all got hammered out. Go back and figure out which part you specifically refer to.
The loop is on your end, not one ours. The map. The map represents knowledge. Faith can't generate a map. If there is knowledge for which we have no adequate expressive form (as of yet) it might come from, as Louis' example, catching a ball, or perhaps the Zen archer, or meditation as we discussed earlier, and that information may not be subject to specific quantification (at least easily) but none of those are particularly "faith" and quite specifically none are religion. Religion is "trust" not faith. Trust that those who told us about it (it doesn't come spontaneously-the amazonian tribe example I used) were correct. Trust that the language they used to communicate the nature of the sublime and the words as abstracted symbols could communicate their knowledge accurately to you. Faith in terms of believing some idea that came to you through non-rational causes is not religion at all and has never led one person to find another person's God in the history of all humanity. The trust from the first example is in direct confrontation with science which requires a mapmaker to show his work.
That is the only thing science is good for: mapmaking. Its maps are the best humanity has for the natural universe. It doesn't say anything about God except what God is not. God is not intervening in our physical universe in any measurable way and exerting any physical forces outside of relativity, quantum mechanics, physics in general.Faith doesn't contribute anything to that map for the simple reason that there can be opposing faiths.
Now, that in no way denigrates a belief in god. I very passionately believe in god and I don't think Louis would have any issue at all with my beliefs. I don't make claims about god however because of essentially this reason. And for the same reason, I understand that there is a rift between science and religion. Also for this reason, I take sides.
Please watch the link if you haven't before. Even if you have. It is one of the most coherent expressions of faith I have ever come across.
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far
The Daily Wingnut