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  Topic: AFDave's UPDATED Creator God Hypothesis 2< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2006,13:26   

Quote (afdave @ Nov. 07 2006,10:58)
HLA-B NO PROBLEM FOR THE BIBLICAL SCENARIO

Mike PSS-- † †  
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The "90%" statement is about the presence of an allele, not the frequency.
DO YOU DENY THIS?
OK, we can talk about the PRESENCE of the allele ... no problem. †I can readily explain it in terms of the Biblical scenario. †But first, why did you mention the 90%? †What point were you trying to make?

Dave,
I posted the 90% number because I'm lazy. †My initial review of the data showed ABOUT 90% of the alleles were matched in the different regions without going through the tedium of counting and crossing out. †I couldn't say ALL the alleles matched but wanted to have a ballpark number we could talk around. †This also means I think there is a greater than 80% match in the data. †If you want to come up with a more precise number feel free to post it.
 
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The Woodmoorappe chart shows three genes (A, B, C) and we are talking about only one gene (A).
DO YOU DENY THIS?
Two separate issues, Mike. †The Woodmorappe chart shows how genetic diversity can easily be maintained to a very high degree in a bottleneck such as the Flood. †The HLA-B allele question is a different matter. †You are trying to claim that there is not enough time between the end of the Flood and the end of the Ice age for all these HLA-B alleles to have arisen. †And I am in the process of systematically dismantling your claim as I have done with so many other bogus claims here.

Dave,
Don't conflate your 'genetic richness' claim with the HLA-B allele arguments. †Woodmoorappe's chart says nothing to the points in the HLA-B discussion, unless you can show the large number of mutations necessary in the short amount of time you have available between the end of the flood and the end of the ice age.
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The table I referenced had a Citation that shows that the people tested were aboriginal to the region and showed no outside cross-breeding. †I mentioned this in almost every post about this table.
DO YOU DENY THIS?
Yes, I deny this for two reasons ...
First, there is some admixture explicitly acknowledged in the citations ...
† †  
Quote
Anthropology Citations

†Submitter: BGRNAU
† †Population: Bulgarian
† † †Report: †Roma from Bulgaria †
† † †Authors: †M. Ivanova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova †
†Submitter: BRADON
† †Population: Brazilian (Af Eu)
† † †Report: †Brazilian (Admixed, African and European) from the Northeast region of State of S„o Paulo, Brazil †
† † †Authors: †P. Louzada-Junior, N.H. Deghaide, M.B. Araujo, A.G. Smith, M.H.S. Kraemer, E.A. Donadi †
†Submitter: BRAPTZ
† †Population: Guarani-Kaiowa
† † †Report: †Guarani-KaiowŠ Amerindians from Mato Grosso do Sul State, Brazil †
† † †Authors: †M. L. Petzl-Erler and L. T. Tsuneto †
† †Population: Guarani-Nandewa
† † †Report: †Guarani-—andeva Amerindians from Mato Grosso do Sul State, Brazil †
† † †Authors: †M. L. Petzl-Erler and L. T. Tsuneto †
†Submitter: CANLUO
† †Population: Kenyan 142
† † †Report: †Kenyan from Kenya †
† † †Authors: †Ma Luo, Joanne Embree, Suzie Ramdahin, Jeckoniah Ndinya-Achola, Simon Njenga, Job B. Bwayo, Kristine Jacobson, Luvinia Kwan, Marlis Schroeder, Sha Pan, Marc Jevan Narayansingh, Shehzad Iqbal, Robert C. Brunham, and Francis A. Plummer †


Dave,
When you mix and match data, like you've done above, you can get a confused picture about the results. †Remember, I'm only using the North American data for my claim yet you posted a hodge-podge of Citation data from different regions.
The BGRNAU citation is from the Europe region.
The BRADON citation is from the Other region.
(Geez Dave, why would they put this admittedly admixed population in the Other region instead of the South American region)
The BRAPTZ citation is from the South America region.
The 'Guarani-Nandewa' citation is from the South America region.
The CANLUO citation is from the Sub-Saharan Africa region.

Why don't you only cite the North American region (you know, the region WE ARE TALKING ABOUT). †Here's the table from the North American Citation, let's only look at this....
Quote (NA Citation @ Nov. 7 2006, 13:56)
Search Criteria
† Population Area: † North America

†Submitter: MEXGOR
† †Population: Lacandon
† † †Report: †Lacandon Mayan Indians from Mexico †
† † †Authors: †Carmen Alaez, M. Vazquez-Garcia, Angelica Olivo, and Clara Gorodezky †
† †Population: Seri
† † †Report: †Seri from Sonora, Mexico †
† † †Authors: †Infante E, Alaez C, Flores H, Gorodezky C. †
†Submitter: USAERL
† †Population: Canoncito
† † †Report: †CaŮoncito Navajo from New Mexico †
† † †Authors: †Steven J. Mack, Rosario Castro, Andrea J. Jani, Laura N. Geyer, Gary M. Troup, Alan Keel, Edward T. Blake, Robert C. Williams, and Henry A. Erlich †
† †Population: Maya
† † †Report: †Maya from Mexico †
† † †Authors: †Steven J. Mack, Rosario Castro, Andrea J. Jani, Laura N. Geyer, Gary M. Troup, Alan Keel, Edward T. Blake, Robert C. Williams, and Henry A. Erlich †
† †Population: Pima 17
† † †Report: †Pima from Arizona †
† † †Authors: †Steven J. Mack, Rosario Castro, Andrea J. Jani, Laura N. Geyer, Gary M. Troup, Alan Keel, Edward T. Blake, Robert C. Williams, and Henry A. Erlich †
† †Population: Pima 99
† † †Report: †Pima from Arizona †
† † †Authors: †Steven J. Mack, Rosario Castro, Andrea J. Jani, Laura N. Geyer, Gary M. Troup, Alan Keel, Edward T. Blake, Robert C. Williams, and Henry A. Erlich †
† †Population: Sioux
† † †Report: †Sioux from South Dakota †
† † †Authors: †Steven J. Mack, Rosario Castro, Andrea J. Jani, Laura N. Geyer, Gary M. Troup, Alan Keel, Edward T. Blake, Robert C. Williams, and Henry A. Erlich †
† †Population: Zuni
† † †Report: †Zuni from New Mexico †
† † †Authors: †Steven J. Mack, Rosario Castro, Andrea J. Jani, Laura N. Geyer, Gary M. Troup, Alan Keel, Edward T. Blake, Robert C. Williams, and Henry A. Erlich †
†Submitter: USALEF
† †Population: Yupik
† † †Report: †Yup'ik Eskimo from Yukon-Kuskokwim delta, Alaska †
† † †Authors: †Mary S. Leffell, M. Daniele Fallin, Henry A. Erlich, Marcelo Fernandez-Vina, William H. Hildebrand, Steven J. Mack and Andrea A. Zachary †
†Submitter: USAMFV
† †Population: Amerindian
† † †Report: †Native American from the United States †
† † †Authors: †K. Cao, M.A. FernŠndez-ViŮa


On to your next false claim....
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Secondly, there is plenty of admixture NOT explicitly acknowledged in the citations. †Think about those Amerindians from Mato Grosso, for example. †Are you telling me that these researchers have some way of eliminating the possibility of admixture of the Spaniards and the Incas? †Do they (and you) think that those Indians just evolved right there in the jungle, pure and pristine, being descendants of some nearby apes? †Come on. †No ... the ancestors of the Incas †came from the same place that ALL ancient nations have come from ... the Tower of Babel. †And those Amerindians probably came from the Incas, likely with some Spanish lineage mixed in.

Dave,
Your argument by assertion doesn't work here. †And if you argue by assertion please get your asserted facts straight. †I am saying that the sampled population wasn't admixed with the Spaniards (or English or French or Africans or....), but I do agree that there can be considered full admixture with the Incas (same region populated AFTER ISOLATION. †I have never denied this.

Also, I'm not arguing about ape origination in Matto Grosso (where in he11 did you come up with that one?). †Let's just concentrate on the North American citations quoted above, mmmkay?
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Please Dave,
Answer the ice age questions too. †How many years after the flood did the ice age occur? †When did the ice age end?
Not quite time to change the subject yet. †I know you're getting uncomfortable, especially now that Jeannot has challenged you too. †Your claim was that 450 or 500 HLA-B alleles had to arise in 250 years or something because "Look, there's 90% similarity all over the world!" †And as we are seeing, the data does NOT support your claim.

But Dave,
Understanding the time between the flood and the ice age end gives everyone a concrete number of years to analyze the data. †This means we have to hold multiple factoids in our brains to analyze the data and come to some conclusion. †Also, as you mentioned above, we need to know the timeline consequence of the Tower of Babel within the ice age question (before, during, or after.... I say during but early on in the ice age).
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WHAT DOES THE HLA-B DATA TELL US?
In short, it tells us that Woodmorappe is correct when he refers to Parham's study which says ... † †  
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Natural selection can clearly act to select new alleles, but in no indigenous population is there evidence for the large numbers of alleles found in modern urban populations. †It seems likely that the large numbers of alleles found in city populations are the results of admixture.For example, if the two Brazilian tribes we studied were to form a single population, then the number of alleles would almost double and it would require relatively few such amalgamations to bring the number of alleles up to those found in a provincial town of Europe or Asia (Parham et al. 1995, p. 177)

So, Dave, how does your CGH explain 500 alleles in 250 years? †It doesn't. †And it doesn't have to as this Parham quote makes clear and as Mike's data makes clear. †
Now some of you are very hard-headed and won't be convinced, so try this ...
Take that HLA-B data from Mike's table, put it in an Excel spreadsheet so you can sort it, then perfom various different sorts. †DAVE'S PREDICTION: †Australia will have a comparatively low number of alleles because there has been relatively little admixture since the Tower of Babel. †Europe will have many alleles because there has been a lot of admixture since the Tower of Babel. †N. America should fall somewhere between Europe and Australia because there has been admixture, but not as much as in Europe.

RESULTS? †
Australia: Only 11 alleles > 1% frequency
N. America: †19 alleles > 1% frequency
Europe: †25 alleles > 1% frequency

Hmmmmmm ... I guess the Bible isn't so silly after all !!

Dave,
You can make frequency predictions to support your hypothesis all day. †I will look at your frequency prediction myself to see if it stands the smell test.

However, we are only talking about allele presence, not frequency. †HOW did all the alleles get to the regions, not how many of each are there. †If one allele makes it to the region that's one more data point in the 'presence' column no matter what the frequency.

So........
Please try and deconstruct only the North American citations. †Posting a global hodge-podge of citations you disagree with (especially since the researchers already classified the results with admixture in mind) doesn't help your case at all.  Your entire argument hinges on the citations being wrong in some way.  Please be specific and show us how the North American (ONLY) citations don't represent aboriginal populations.  All your other verbose prose after this is only so much hot air unless you disprove the citations.

Have at it....  disprove the North American citations.

Mike PSS

*******************************
deadman,
do you have access to the 'American Journal of Physical Anthropology'?  During my web search for 'worldwide distribution of hla alleles' I found a couple abstracts from this journal that looked promising.

I don't think I need to cross-reference any other data than what I presented, but if Dave gets aphasiac during this discussion then we might need to pummel him with more references.
*******************************

  
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